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Taking positioning and maneuver even more into the rubbish pile every year. Tap your card to do X damage to your opponent style play.

 auticus wrote:
Taking positioning and maneuver even more into the rubbish pile every year. Tap your card to do X damage to your opponent style play.

Eh... Pulling it off well is easier said than done. By default throwing a unit off on its own is a recipe to get it killed, so there is that to overcome, plus the mechanics of where you put the unit & what you go after. It opens up new tactical plays even as it allows for ignoring others.

It's also important because not all armies move at the same speeds. Naturally fast armies might not even use the spell because they've got built in speed options of their own; whilst armies that are traditionally slower can potentially use it for their own gain in new tactical options.

It's also something that might not be used just to leap into combat; I can see it working well mid to late game to suddenly throw a block of units to contest or secure an objective.

If you go back into my history you'll know how I feel about deepstrike teleport into combat. I find it brainless. I don't find it very tactical at all, but thats just my perspective and opinion.

Will you get that unit auto killed by doing that? Well years of having to deal with this type of tactic in some form or fashion tells me its never as cut and dry as that.

It will always depend on the unit but the units that are doing this type of thing are either going to be throwaway crap units you don't care about anyway, or alpha assassin type units that are going to come in and remove a high value target with the skill of blowing your nose and drawing breath and rolling 2d6 and getting equal to or higher than the casting cost.

Had it been "move a unit outside of 9" and thats its movement" it could still charge, like anything else in the game that can do this, but because now you can also move on top of that, its a crutch thats already being salivated over. Had it just been that, I'd have said nothing about it.

The other uses I agree with, those would be fun. The teleport into combat without needing to worry about maneuver or any risk to getting there, basically an almost fool proof delivery system, is brain dead and easy mode, as it has always been in its various incarnations in gw games stretching back to ye olde days of 40k old where you could do it. And in those instances, those teleport into combat units weren't guaranteed deaths, as I feel they are not guaranteed deaths in this game. Especially with double turn being a thing where they can potentially go twice in a row.

Double turn is always a contentious issue with AoS - interestingly those who I see support it either have a very casual approach to the game (its far more about the social than winning at all); or they often claim that "they've hardly ever seen it happen more than once". Ergo they don't mind it because they've not really experienced it.


It's also interesting to note some who change their opinion - often supporting it when they've not seen it happen to them or when it happened and they got the double turn. Only to go against it when they are on the receiving end of a double turn.


Honestly when you look at the double turn objectively its not a good thing for a balanced game of combat; esp when there is nothing you can do to prepare nor really influence if you do or don't get it. It's pure luck of the dice and can lead to big swings in the game.
I really hope GW retires it out to narrative/open play and removes it from Matched play. That would be the ideal; it keeps it in the game so to speak; but just removes it from the matched play side of it.

 auticus wrote:
If you go back into my history you'll know how I feel about deepstrike teleport into combat. I find it brainless. I don't find it very tactical at all, but thats just my perspective and opinion.

Will you get that unit auto killed by doing that? Well years of having to deal with this type of tactic in some form or fashion tells me its never as cut and dry as that.

It will always depend on the unit but the units that are doing this type of thing are either going to be throwaway crap units you don't care about anyway, or alpha assassin type units that are going to come in and remove a high value target with the skill of blowing your nose and drawing breath and rolling 2d6 and getting equal to or higher than the casting cost.

Had it been "move a unit outside of 9" and thats its movement" it could still charge, like anything else in the game that can do this, but because now you can also move on top of that, its a crutch thats already being salivated over. Had it just been that, I'd have said nothing about it.

The other uses I agree with, those would be fun. The teleport into combat without needing to worry about maneuver or any risk to getting there, basically an almost fool proof delivery system, is brain dead and easy mode, as it has always been in its various incarnations in gw games stretching back to ye olde days of 40k old where you could do it. And in those instances, those teleport into combat units weren't guaranteed deaths, as I feel they are not guaranteed deaths in this game. Especially with double turn being a thing where they can potentially go twice in a row.

Well, you just spoke of several tactical considerations to make. This is in addition to the consideration of casting it verses another spell, and points were spent on it. The poetential for it to be turned back at you is also there. It isn't free and there is a tangible cost. In other words, getting to ignore certain tactical options is itself a tactic (in this case).

Compare to, say, FEC summoning. Yes there is technically a cost (CP for mounted guys, camping the throne turn 1 for the archregents) but there is no actual choice because paying that cost is overwhelmingly more advantageous. This spell is a choice.

There is also a fun factor; getting to 'break the rules' is entertaining when it isn't overused

Keep in mind you won't be moving hordes with this, the embark/deploy zone is too small. So any unit worth moving will be elite enough to feel the loss of a model. But I agree it would be better if it did not allow a subsequent move.


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Also GW "fixed" FEC summoning by just giving it to everyone. Hands up, who is NOT running a Mercenary Archregent in their tournament army now?

The person forcing it on the other makes the decision about what murder unit he's' sending forth and what high value target is going to be murdered with impunity. Additionally the indirect "tactic" is to choose to go second so that not only can the murder unit go off, eliminate the high value target, it can then have a chance at the double-turn to murder the second-best high value unit without the opponent getting to do anything about it.

If I'm running assault heavy combat army, this is the dictionary definition of a no-brainer. This is auto include every single time.

The other person has to choose to not run armies without chaffe screens or accept that whatever his high value target is going to be will be murdered in the opening round of the game with the effort of rolling 2d6 and beating the casting cost and then the disspel not working.

While pedantically speaking those are "tactics" because they are choices, those are the same tactics you use in CCGs where you tap your card that has the special rule "murder whatever opponent card you wish when tapped". We have moved another step towards battlefield and model position isn't really that important since there is now another way to bypass that and just go where you want into combat.

Had the spell counted for that unit's movement like everything else that does similar things, I'd have no problem with it.

I didn't even realize this until one of the players in my group pointed it out and discussed houseruling that so that it counted as movement. However, the majority are fine with it, it is the direction games have gone in, so it will not be houseruled out. We are doing alternate activation anyway in our campaign so that does help immensely this kind of **** since you can react to it and makes it more dangerous to employ, so my comments are more directed at the non houseruled double-turn RAW game.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Also GW "fixed" FEC summoning by just giving it to everyone. Hands up, who is NOT running a Mercenary Archregent in their tournament army now?

Not matched play legal.


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 auticus wrote:
The person forcing it on the other makes the decision about what murder unit he's' sending forth and what high value target is going to be murdered with impunity. Additionally the indirect "tactic" is to choose to go second so that not only can the murder unit go off, eliminate the high value target, it can then have a chance at the double-turn to murder the second-best high value unit without the opponent getting to do anything about it.

If I'm running assault heavy combat army, this is the dictionary definition of a no-brainer. This is auto include every single time.

The other person has to choose to not run armies without chaffe screens or accept that whatever his high value target is going to be will be murdered in the opening round of the game with the effort of rolling 2d6 and beating the casting cost and then the disspel not working.

While pedantically speaking those are "tactics" because they are choices, those are the same tactics you use in CCGs where you tap your card that has the special rule "murder whatever opponent card you wish when tapped". We have moved another step towards battlefield and model position isn't really that important since there is now another way to bypass that and just go where you want into combat.

Had the spell counted for that unit's movement like everything else that does similar things, I'd have no problem with it.

I didn't even realize this until one of the players in my group pointed it out and discussed houseruling that so that it counted as movement. However, the majority are fine with it, it is the direction games have gone in, so it will not be houseruled out. We are doing alternate activation anyway in our campaign so that does help immensely this kind of **** since you can react to it and makes it more dangerous to employ, so my comments are more directed at the non houseruled double-turn RAW game.

I just don't see it being an auto-use option for assault armies, I think there are drawbacks to its use that make it a tactical choice rather than just flinging it out like its nothing. Consider, for instance, that to move a significantly sized unit you will need to deploy them in a U-shape so that the spell can be placed in the middle and have them be wholly within 3". That is a dead giveaway to the opponent of what's being planned, allowing them to react accordingly. Anything with a base more than 3" can't go with it at all so almost all monster options are off the table, and many deathstar units will be too big as well. What this is actually for is flanking/objective snagging, not alpha-striking. Double turns break the game anyways, so that largely irrelevant.

That depends largely on the murder unit and what its target is. If the target is to take an undercost murder unit and slay heroes, you don't need a big unit to do this.

Every instance I'm seeing people talk about the use for this has little to do with flanking/objective snagging and everything to do with getting murder units in contact turn 1 and hopefully go next in turn 2 for double the fun.

People talked about how summoning would be a non-issue, too.

At any rate, it's a problem with the undercosted unit and the double turn respectively. Saying something is OP with a double turn is saying nothing at all.

 Overread wrote:
Double turn is always a contentious issue with AoS - interestingly those who I see support it either have a very casual approach to the game (its far more about the social than winning at all); or they often claim that "they've hardly ever seen it happen more than once". Ergo they don't mind it because they've not really experienced it.


It's also interesting to note some who change their opinion - often supporting it when they've not seen it happen to them or when it happened and they got the double turn. Only to go against it when they are on the receiving end of a double turn.


Honestly when you look at the double turn objectively its not a good thing for a balanced game of combat; esp when there is nothing you can do to prepare nor really influence if you do or don't get it. It's pure luck of the dice and can lead to big swings in the game.
I really hope GW retires it out to narrative/open play and removes it from Matched play. That would be the ideal; it keeps it in the game so to speak; but just removes it from the matched play side of it.

It's a bit like people who enjoy or hate Monopoly. People who are lucky and more often than not win at Monopoly are going to like the game whereas others will hate it.

I would also add that the Double Turn is a genuine problem that GW has tried to address time and time again. All those "This unit model gets to attack as it dies", Endless Spells, and other features, are there to counteract the problems of the Double Turn. Despite that the Double Turn remains problematic and GW will continue to find "solutions" to the problem.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Double turn is always a contentious issue with AoS - interestingly those who I see support it either have a very casual approach to the game (its far more about the social than winning at all); or they often claim that "they've hardly ever seen it happen more than once". Ergo they don't mind it because they've not really experienced it.


It's also interesting to note some who change their opinion - often supporting it when they've not seen it happen to them or when it happened and they got the double turn. Only to go against it when they are on the receiving end of a double turn.


Honestly when you look at the double turn objectively its not a good thing for a balanced game of combat; esp when there is nothing you can do to prepare nor really influence if you do or don't get it. It's pure luck of the dice and can lead to big swings in the game.
I really hope GW retires it out to narrative/open play and removes it from Matched play. That would be the ideal; it keeps it in the game so to speak; but just removes it from the matched play side of it.

It's a bit like people who enjoy or hate Monopoly. People who are lucky and more often than not win at Monopoly are going to like the game whereas others will hate it.

I would also add that the Double Turn is a genuine problem that GW has tried to address time and time again. All those "This unit model gets to attack as it dies", Endless Spells, and other features, are there to counteract the problems of the Double Turn. Despite that the Double Turn remains problematic and GW will continue to find "solutions" to the problem.

The hell of it all is that GW has done that ever since I started full stop gaming with their products. Typically they patched the rules to fix bad Army Book/Codex design, but it wasn't uncommon to add bad Army Book/Codex rules to counter bad core rules on their part.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
People talked about how summoning would be a non-issue, too.

At any rate, it's a problem with the undercosted unit and the double turn respectively. Saying something is OP with a double turn is saying nothing at all.

The core of it for me is another magic the gathering mechanic further whittling away at a wargame’s battlefield tactics by letting you bypass any need for maneuver and just letting you point and click a unit into combat with no effort at all. Tap your red card and deal x damage to your opponent.

The undercost murder units busting the game with it and double turn are just exasperations of the problem magnified.

Another thing is that the double turn means one player has to spend two whole game rounds doing nothing but roll to save and remove their models from the table. It's just really not fun to be standing there doing that. Especially because for most players its likely going to remove the effective power of most of their army, most of their choices, reactions, plans, ideas are being taken off the board.

Honestly I wish GW would just abandon the idea, I can't think of any other game that allows a double turn like this without there being some means to cost it or counter it. Eg I'm sure there's Magic the Gathering spells that let you take a second turn etc... but they are countered by counterspells and stealing spells and blocking etc... and they are all standard tools in a deck - so a player has a chance to tackle the issue. Plus they are best of 3 matches and are over quick. So the pain isn't the same.

Come to 40K and you could be spending 30 minutes or more just watching your opponent play. That's a lot of time doing nothing

My biggest issue with Double Turns especially are armies that can deal damage with units and have an effective spell casting phase. Double Turn of such double whammy is just excruciating to endure, both in time wasted doing nothing and units lost.

I'm fortunate to have a group that allows us to bypass double turn, and even explore alternate activations.

The alternate activations really save the game for me.

My FLGS had a tourney recently where Priority Order was skipped and the classic alternate system was used. It was much more relaxing and allowed people to actually think about possible moves in future turns without being screwed over by Priority Order.

Do we have any idea what that boat spell costs yet for points? I’m thinking it could make for a potent Nett-bomb. Drop 30 daemonettes in it (yes, with small bases you can get 30 around it), have them pop out, move, charge, use a KoS to keep up, make the unit they hit ASL, then give them a second round of combat. That unit can 100% wipe out any target they hit that isn’t Morathi or a fleshy abundance’d unit of Marauders (but they’d hand over 30 DP points, so who cares?). You can safely toss that 300pt unit into any character and watch him/her melt under a hail of 118 attacks where 6’s explode to 3 hits, 6s to wound deal MWs, and hit/wound on 4+ w/ -1 armor saves. Lethal? Yes please.

Nope not yet. As easy as point and click that it is, I would suspect its also dirt cheap.

So two 30-daemonette units, 2 Keepers, Daemonette battalion (only requires two units to unlock), Chronomatic Cogs, 2 Enrapturesses, Fane, boat spell (Charon from Greek mythology), and...before boat spell I have 180 pts to play with. I figure that’s giving me either a unit of Hellstriders or a Chariot to be battleline, depending on boat cost. It seems like not a lot of drops, but that can potentially hit 30+ depravity points in a single turn to summon either more units or another KoS.

Can we not have another thread devolve into whining about the Double Turn? Either houserule it out like the rest of us, or learn to deal with it, but please stop turning every thread into a discussion about it.

Bridge 80
Boat 60
Shards 40
Ghast 60

You skubs.

Does this book reveal which Ancient Evil is locked in the Lethis Stormvault?

Yeah if the bridge is 80 points and it lets you teleport murder units into combat with no effort, thats pretty much to me going to be one of the only endless spells that you will see in a lot of games.

 Eldarain wrote:
Does this book reveal which Ancient Evil is locked in the Lethis Stormvault?

Hot off the presses. ***Do not click if you want to go in fresh to the The Forbidden Power lore***

 auticus wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
People talked about how summoning would be a non-issue, too.

At any rate, it's a problem with the undercosted unit and the double turn respectively. Saying something is OP with a double turn is saying nothing at all.

The core of it for me is another magic the gathering mechanic further whittling away at a wargame’s battlefield tactics by letting you bypass any need for maneuver and just letting you point and click a unit into combat with no effort at all. Tap your red card and deal x damage to your opponent.

I think that is a vast oversimplification that both overstates how powerful it is and ignores the tactical options it creates. "Bypass any need for maneuver" glosses over the unit needing to be wholly within 3" of the boat when it is summoned, and the wizard needing to be within range to summon the boat at the proper location, and that said unit still needs to be maneuvered using the boat move and its subsequent move; a speed boost does not mean there is no maneuvering. Even if every unit in the game could fly an infinite distance there would still be maneuvering. "No effort at all" ignores that it costs points and needs to be cast. What unit is actually slamming into a front line and wrecking everything using this spell anyways? It isn't game winning, it's a tool in the toolbox.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nels1031 wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Does this book reveal which Ancient Evil is locked in the Lethis Stormvault?

Hot off the presses. ***Do not click if you want to go in fresh to the The Forbidden Power lore***

Spoiler:

After a cataclysmic battle that leaves both Lady Olynder and the Celestant-Prime battered and bloodied at the entrance of the Stormvault, the doors slowly creak open. A chorus of wails and tormented spirits sweeps out, fleeing in abject terror of the entity that they were locked in with for centuries. And as the cacophony of screams subsides into the silence of the night, an aroma wafts over the combatants, both held still in anticipation of whats to come. Is it friend or foe? Can either army stand against the entity that watches them from the darkness? Is that beef stew?

Before the Celestant Prime can gather his wits and face this new foe, he’s engulfed in a shot of burning soup. Lady Olynder suffers a similiar fate, sending both their armies and allies into a hasty retreat.

The Halfling Hotpot has entered the Mortal Realms.

GW fooled us all by telling us that the Hotpot was for Blood Bowl, but its the new power player in the Mortal Realms.

A twist worthy of Shamamlammalon himself!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 auticus wrote:
I'm fortunate to have a group that allows us to bypass double turn, and even explore alternate activations.

The alternate activations really save the game for me.

Important to keep in mind that alternate activations is a very different game, units/tactics can behave differently in the base game than in alternate activation. The boat, for example, has a dramatically different impact and use in alternate activation that it does in the base game. Thinking on that I can see why your stance on it is so different than mine; it is WAY stronger in alternate unit activation.

Important to keep in mind that alternate activations is a very different game, units/tactics can behave differently in the base game than in alternate activation. The boat, for example, has a dramatically different impact and use in alternate activation that it does in the base game. Thinking on that I can see why your stance on it is so different than mine; it is WAY stronger in alternate unit activation.

I've been using alternate activation for the past couple years. It actually bypasses things like this because you can react after they try it. The stormcast teleport trick is one thing I have a lot of experience with and alt activation makes them harder to pull it off since the rest of the army can just move away unit by unit instead of them just piling the whole army into an area and then alpha assaulting.

The boat does not seem stronger with alternate activation. It is not as useful in terms of wanting to direct alpha strike someone with it because not only in alt activation do you NOT get a double turn, the opposition sees where your unit has gone and can react accordingly instead of standing there taking it in the face.

In either case, the murder unit will be murdering what it wants. The difference is after the murder unit launches its attack and kills its target, the other player immediately gets to activate a unit to respond as opposed to have stood there watching half or more of their army get destroyed, so it can either attack back, or move units out of the way. And there's no double turn. With RAW the murder unit gets to attack what it wants. And then potentially gets to do what it wants again without being attacked a single time, so I'm not seeing how alternate activation makes this scenario more powerful for the murder unit.

The below quote is from me a few posts up. Bolded emphasis mine.

I didn't even realize this until one of the players in my group pointed it out and discussed houseruling that so that it counted as movement. However, the majority are fine with it, it is the direction games have gone in, so it will not be houseruled out. We are doing alternate activation anyway in our campaign so that does help immensely this kind of **** since you can react to it and makes it more dangerous to employ, so my comments are more directed at the non houseruled double-turn RAW game.

I wouldn't be posting a complaint about something based on houserules. That would be rather insipid of me.

"Bypass any need for maneuver" glosses over the unit needing to be wholly within 3" of the boat when it is summoned, and the wizard needing to be within range to summon the boat at the proper location, and that said unit still needs to be maneuvered using the boat move and its subsequent move; a speed boost does not mean there is no maneuvering.

Those things are not overly difficult to accomplish. That falls in the realm to me of "not needing to maneuver". If it makes it better, turn "not needing to maneuver" into "very easy to maneuver".

Its still easy mode to pull off minus the dice roll to cast the spell which is up to random chance, but these spells are always given such ridiculously low casting values that failing a casting roll is very rare.

Almost every single conversation I'm seeing on this boat is to use it to point and click a murder unit into whatever you want without repercussion, and then hope for a double turn to basically double the murder unit's output into the top two value targets in the opposing army. I don't have to position my unit correctly other than to put it in range of the spell. I don't have to worry about my opponent countering with counter maneuvering. I just make it happen and it happens. The removal of a counter-maneuver short of use screens and if you are playing an army without screens, thats your problem, is the thing that bothers me most.

Well, that’s why I mentioned the Daemonette-Bomb; you get a command trait to hand them a double-tap in a single turn. God forbid you actually get a double turn with that, you’re potentially smashing 4 units with no fear of repercussions because the opposing units will be D-E-A-D before they can even do a damn thing. And that’s ignoring the damage output of everything else around them. Honestly, if i was facing that combo and knew what it did, I’d be frightened. If I didn’t know what it did and didn’t prepare, I’d be calling over a neutral part and asking “can they really F-ing do that?!”

I wouldn't be frightened. I'd shake your hand and say good game and go find something else to do with my time, because thats not an entertaining or fun game to me. (assuming we weren't playing in a tournament where all bets are off)

From a tournament context thats definitely a powerful tool that they've introduced, and I will be highly surprised if its not something that is used fairly regularly. With a lot of armies that have cheapish murder units.