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Eaten by nids and nommed into bio mass is one of more gerally apcepted theories..

There worlds where on the impirum edges and first to be hit by the hungry muchie monsters..

 jhe90 wrote:
Eaten by nids and nommed into bio mass is one of more gerally apcepted theories..

There worlds where on the impirum edges and first to be hit by the hungry muchie monsters..

It is not a theory I am afraid, it is just factually incorrect, had GW written a series of novels or even ONCE referenced the squats in universe then maybe, but they essentially snapped them out of ever existing in the 40k universe, the Nids reference is from a pre amble to the inquisition war series of novels, themselves that are not actually part of the 40k universe anymore either it seems.

I don't understand the hostility to Jervis's response. While I totally understand frustration by players/collectors when they stop supporting your favorite line, unless you were involved personally, this explanation makes as much sense as anything else. I think there's a profound honesty to saying, "we could not think of a way to make this archetype work." Now, they could have been more transparent through 2nd edition and into 3rd, but the explanation seems valid. To reject it means to basically think there is a more malicious reason to stop support, which seems really unlikely.

 Polonius wrote:
I don't understand the hostility to Jervis's response. While I totally understand frustration by players/collectors when they stop supporting your favorite line, unless you were involved personally, this explanation makes as much sense as anything else. I think there's a profound honesty to saying, "we could not think of a way to make this archetype work." Now, they could have been more transparent through 2nd edition and into 3rd, but the explanation seems valid. To reject it means to basically think there is a more malicious reason to stop support, which seems really unlikely.

It would hold more meaning if they didn't shoehorn things in now. They'll force whatever they want in just to sell a new model so why can't they be Squat models?

Presumably for the same reason they went away; they're not something anyone in the design studio particularly wants to revive. Other than Andy Hoare putting a couple of them into Necromunda.

Going back to page 1, Demiurg were another attempt to port the dwarf archetype into 40k, but in-universe they're not connected. Squats are an abhuman strain, Demiurg are an alien race.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Presumably for the same reason they went away; they're not something anyone in the design studio particularly wants to revive. Other than Andy Hoare putting a couple of them into Necromunda.

Going back to page 1, Demiurg were another attempt to port the dwarf archetype into 40k, but in-universe they're not connected. Squats are an abhuman strain, Demiurg are an alien race.

Demiurg are listed as Abhumans in the 7th Ed rulebook fluff section

No they aren't, squats were. Alongside Giants and catkin.

On the last page of the 8th ed rulebook Squats are specifically mentioned as being around just not in any meaningful number.

I Like that they're still a thing, but it's even MORE of a kick in the nuts from GW to us Squat players from back in the day. I bought Grendl and will get the ammojack one when its available.

Another Avenue for their return is Titanicus or the hopefully eventual Epic revival. The scale of the war warmachines they brought are perfect for Landtrains & Zeppelins etc...

They could also be brought back in killteam.

Well they can be brought back to the full game too. I think they will be, eventually.

easy to do too.

Retcon old fluff, or say "hey we found a small unknown empire of them somewhere on the galactic rim. 20 colonized worlds, their own armada."

Problem solved either way.

nareik wrote:
No they aren't, squats were. Alongside Giants and catkin.

Demiurg, not squats. And not catkin, but Felinids.

GW doesn't use generic names for anything anymore, not since end of 6th Ed. They were mentioned in 7th Ed fluff rulebook, which may have changed since then that I'm not aware of, but they were listed alongside Homo Sapiens Hirsutus (Felinids) and Homo Sapien Gigantus (Ogryns) for example.

Funny how the three Eldar guys couldnt figure out how to do the opposite army.
Almost as if they should have let someone else do it. But couldnt or wouldnt.

Slipspace wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
Screw Jervis and his lame-ass response. They just chose to not develop them any further. GW had no problem doin it with space Elfs, Space Orks, etc... so WTF?

It really pisses me off when Kharadrons are basically Squats and aesthetically look kinda exactly like they should. If I remember my galactic geography correctly, the nids would be really close to Terra if they made it all the way to the Galactic core(where Squat homeworlds are). Even the great "squatting" was half-assed.

He's not wrong though. Squats seems to have taken on this near-mythical status among 40k gamers but they were always a poorly fleshed-out semi-joke army. Most of the character they had came from these jokey elements and they really didn't do enough to justify themselves as a race on par with Eldar or Orks in the 40k universe. They weren't even Dwarves in space as that would imply a level of development for them that simply wasn't evident at all. They were barely an army at all, at any point.

If the creative team at the time couldn't find the inspiration to develop them into an army it was the right call to drop them. It's interesting to note that Tyranids were a less well-developed race at the beginning of 2nd edition but they clearly had something that provided inspiration that allowed the designers to flesh them out. The same can't be said of Squats.

Everything was a joke in rogue trader, and much was a joke in 2nd edition. The biggest ork in the game was named after margret thatcher.

If they can cram blue anime inspired tau into the game, I don’t see why space dwarves are so hard. Some of the Age of Sigmar versions are all practically sci-fi as it is.

What do you mean "Eldar guys"? That's not how GW have ever operated.

The Squats languished for six years, after all; in that time, Jervis, Andy, Jes, John Blanche, Gav Thorpe, Ian Pickstock and others all looked at them and it seems like none of them saw anything worth pushing forward.

Does the game really suffer from a lack of space dwarfs? I mean, if they had come up with something cool, I wouldn't be advocating doing away with them, but it's not like they're necessary. They were in the game for four years, lurked ignored in the background for another six and have been utterly irrelevant for twenty years.

Even among the oldhammer groups, there's more bemoaning the fact they went away than any posts of people showing them off; they're basically a way to show off your 40k hipster cred.

Of corse it is. The Eldar guys were the main 3.
The Eldar lovers, Jervis, Andy C and the every one cringes at Thorpe. Why else do you think theyre right up the every edition.
We can invent a eldar that can do any job.
But technically superior, slow dwarfs in space, nope were outa ideas.

Its the war of the beard and who couldnt grow one all over again.

AndrewGPaul wrote:
Does the game really suffer from a lack of space dwarfs? I mean, if they had come up with something cool, I wouldn't be advocating doing away with them, but it's not like they're necessary. They were in the game for four years, lurked ignored in the background for another six and have been utterly irrelevant for twenty years.

I always thought that the lack of them was a real wasted opportunity. The concept of 'dwarves in space' (miners, with a propensity for technology and like of confined spaces) lends itself better to the sci-fi/space setting than a lot of the other fantasy tropes.
As Jervis pointed out the race always looked better at 6mm scale where, rather than stunted hell's angels, you had the whole engineering side of things (and in fact you still see them about on the Epic playing scene) - it would be interesting these days, with GW's ability to produce big and detailed plastic kits, what they might have made of things like Land Trains, Overlord airships etc. (although thinking about it - maybe the Dwarf race in AoS has satisfied that itch!)

Polonius wrote:I don't understand the hostility to Jervis's response. While I totally understand frustration by players/collectors when they stop supporting your favorite line, unless you were involved personally, this explanation makes as much sense as anything else. I think there's a profound honesty to saying, "we could not think of a way to make this archetype work." Now, they could have been more transparent through 2nd edition and into 3rd, but the explanation seems valid. To reject it means to basically think there is a more malicious reason to stop support, which seems really unlikely.

Thinking back to the time, remember Jervis' response came some time later. The initial response, and remembering that this was pre-internet days, was that the only concession to fans was an incredible derogatory letter which amounted to "Squats were rubbish, deal with it" in White Dwarf which certainly didn't help the well of ill-feeling. I think it wasn't so much the fact that they were wiped, but the manner in which it was carried out.

If anything it was really good of Jervis to write that letter to the fans. He didn't have to at all, and I'm sure some GW-sycophants viewed it as pandering to the 'fawning entitlement' of some fans that should take what they're given and shut up, but like him helping to keep the Specialist Games going (and his articles in White Dwarf when it was little more than an advertising pamphlet) he always seems to have had that thought for the fans - even when GW as a company hasn't given this impression.

I think it's telling that no other company has really nailed dwarfs in space. There are some interesting ideas out there, mantic's forge fathers most notably, but I'd give them at best a B-.

One of the other issues in 40k is, to borrow a phrase from Privateer Press, "design space." Lets start with the basic archtype of dwarfs: physically short but stocky, skilled artisans, stubborn to a fault, clan based, honor obsessed, etc. Then lets look at some of the most common tropes: vaguely celtic/norse cultural elements, infantry focused, heavy amored.

The problem is, there were 40k armies that already embody a lot of those traits. The space wolves in particular grabbed the Viking/norse/rune magic elements that dwarves usually have. Dark Angels have the stubborn, standoffish thing nailed down.

You really end up with things like "clan based" and "excellent artisans" (this being prior to ad-mech being a big part of the game). If I were to start spitballing, you could add in mercantile and lawful but neutral politically, which would keep with their somewhat unique status as allied but independent worlds to the Imperium. the fluff would be great: squat fleets and armies protecting merchants, miners, and industry outside of the Homeworlds. Still, how do you represent that in the rules, and in models? Modelling, for 2nd edition squats I would have gone in the one direction 2nd edition avoided: grimey. Have the squats represent more of a hard sci-fi look. Flightsuits, practical armor, solid but well crafted weapons. avoid ostentation or unneccesary motifs.

Still, what rules? IG were the footslogging shooters, as were orks at the time. (Orks were BS3 until 3rd edition). The best idea I can think of would be to have slotted basic squat warriors into the niche of Firewarriors or Skitarii Rangers. Make them T4, with a 4+ save, and weapon more powerful than a lasgun. They could still use bikes and trikes, but give them a jump pack shooting unit like current inceptors. Make the bikes shorter range, but harder hitting. give them a transport (even access to the rhino would be okay) so they can have hearthguard with power axes.

Thinking about it now, I feel like 3rd edition, right before Tau, was the time relaunch squats. They were making more stuff in plastic, and they could have given the squats a decent range: a warrior box, bikes, a heavy transport/tank, and maybe exo-armor.

the ancient wrote:
Of corse it is. The Eldar guys were the main 3.
The Eldar lovers, Jervis, Andy C and the every one cringes at Thorpe. Why else do you think theyre right up the every edition.
We can invent a eldar that can do any job.
But technically superior, slow dwarfs in space, nope were outa ideas.

Its the war of the beard and who couldnt grow one all over again.

By which you mean, Andy, Jervis and Gav did all the work on the Eldar, no work on anything else and no-one else did anything for Eldar? I mean, the Harlequins appeared before Andy Chambers started, and by the time Gav Thorpe turned up it was two editions later and Craftworld Eldar had been solidly defined for years.

If you think that three people in the design studio did away with squats because they didn’t like them, that seems like tinfoil hattery to me.

You know, if they really wanted to "test the waters" on Squats, they could just launch them as a race tied to the Tau Empire, like Kroot and Vespid. Then, if they get a lot of support and are popular, they could start thinking about making them their own thing.

Alternatively, as others have said, they could just be an Abhuman strain. Give them a couple units that can fight alongside Terrans. Etc.

The time to bring back Squats 3rd edition, it was in 6th. The place the Squat Army list really stood out was in Epic, because of their preponderance of heavy vehicles. If they’d gone with that, and either shelved the biker idea for later or doubled down on it and got rid of foot infantry altogether (the 40k army was rather split between wacky Hells Angels bikers and dour heavily equipped line infantry) and played up the heavy engineering aspect that might have been the beginning of something. Not repurposed civilian industrial equipment though; unlike the ‘stealer cults, the Squats do warare properly.

As for a look and feel, the 2nd edition prototypes don’t look Celtic or Viking - they look Saxon. More rich decoration than the Space Wolves have, cleaner lines than Imperial equipment, but after that I run dry, I’m afraid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flandarz wrote:
You know, if they really wanted to "test the waters" on Squats, they could just launch them as a race tied to the Tau Empire, like Kroot and Vespid. Then, if they get a lot of support and are popular, they could start thinking about making them their own thing.

Alternatively, as others have said, they could just be an Abhuman strain. Give them a couple units that can fight alongside Terrans. Etc.

They did. That’s what the demiurg are, another attempt at dwarves in space (while still leaving room in the setting for the actual Squats to remain).

Neat. I'm kinda assuming they ain't doing too well though, since literally no one ever talks about them.

 flandarz wrote:
Neat. I'm kinda assuming they ain't doing too well though, since literally no one ever talks about them.

They received two ships in BFG from Forgeworld and then disappeared until they were needed for cameo appearances in the Farsight novel.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
Neat. I'm kinda assuming they ain't doing too well though, since literally no one ever talks about them.

They received two ships in BFG from Forgeworld and then disappeared until they were needed for cameo appearances in the Farsight novel.

I think there is reference to them in a 30k short story, some alpha legion are trying to infiltrate a asteroid base and find a demiurg mining drone inside the rock. Also they have respresentation in the BFG video game as well, part of the tau line up I believe.

None of the Tau client races have had any real time in the limelight for a decade, though. It's not just the Demiurg. Vespids got one unit, Kroot have had nothing new since the Taros Campaign book first came out, and the demiurg are only one of three other client races that only appeared as one or two ships in BFG.

Thinking about how they could come back without a full codex, perhaps as a mercenary unit of dwarf slayers, tyranid monster hunters full of vengeance for their homeworld. Could include other background fluff units, and bolster players armies to plug gaps, not to mention getting cool models!

I am now trying to work out a design space for squats in 40k, thinking slow units, S3 T4, with advanced tech... but the advanced tech slot is already filled by t'au...

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
None of the Tau client races have had any real time in the limelight for a decade, though. It's not just the Demiurg. Vespids got one unit, Kroot have had nothing new since the Taros Campaign book first came out, and the demiurg are only one of three other client races that only appeared as one or two ships in BFG.

Don't forget the reference in the Xenology book!

the ancient wrote:Funny how the three Eldar guys couldnt figure out how to do the opposite army.
Almost as if they should have let someone else do it. But couldnt or wouldnt.

As much as I like Jes, he is a tad too elfish to dwarf it up and the other 2 couldn't punch their way out of a wet paper bag(figuratively) when it comes to Squats. Kharadron are damn close to what current 40k Squats would look like model wise. If it wouldnt cost a shittonne of money to build/kitbash I would do it, but wont on principle.

At this point if they did a 100% FW resin army I would be down for that sinkhole of $ bills, even if only for 30k. the sculpting on Grendl is excellent and one of my favorite models so they obviously can technically do it.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:


By which you mean, Andy, Jervis and Gav did all the work on the Eldar, no work on anything else and no-one else did anything for Eldar? I mean, the Harlequins appeared before Andy Chambers started, and by the time Gav Thorpe turned up it was two editions later and Craftworld Eldar had been solidly defined for years.

If you think that three people in the design studio did away with squats because they didn’t like them, that seems like tinfoil hattery to me.

No one expects the inquisition.
What i meant was Jervis was one of the Primarchs. No one would go against him. A squat player would be like wotziface going up against Angryron.
AC was brought to Blizzard for the Protoss. Thorpe well hes a window licker.
JJ absent mindlessly hands someone a project about 40k dwarfs. Do something with this.
Yes baws.
How about they shoot black holes and use bigger mech suits than marines. But theyre a bit slow
JJ ive got this great idea for a eldar gun.

Racerguy180 wrote:

As much as I like Jes, he is a tad too elfish to dwarf it up and the other 2 couldn't punch their way out of a wet paper bag(figuratively) when it comes to Squats.

I doubt all 3 would know which end of a warhammer to hang onto

I always thought they should have given the imperial knights to the squats. Made the knights a faction that way, and also have a place for the dwarf aesthetic.

the ancient wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:


By which you mean, Andy, Jervis and Gav did all the work on the Eldar, no work on anything else and no-one else did anything for Eldar? I mean, the Harlequins appeared before Andy Chambers started, and by the time Gav Thorpe turned up it was two editions later and Craftworld Eldar had been solidly defined for years.

If you think that three people in the design studio did away with squats because they didn’t like them, that seems like tinfoil hattery to me.

No one expects the inquisition.
What i meant was Jervis was one of the Primarchs. No one would go against him. A squat player would be like wotziface going up against Angryron.
AC was brought to Blizzard for the Protoss. Thorpe well hes a window licker.
JJ absent mindlessly hands someone a project about 40k dwarfs. Do something with this.
Yes baws.
How about they shoot black holes and use bigger mech suits than marines. But theyre a bit slow
JJ ive got this great idea for a eldar gun.

Racerguy180 wrote:

As much as I like Jes, he is a tad too elfish to dwarf it up and the other 2 couldn't punch their way out of a wet paper bag(figuratively) when it comes to Squats.

I doubt all 3 would know which end of a warhammer to hang onto

Bit of name-calling going on there.

I remember Andy C as being all about Skaven, Chaos, Necromunda, TYRANIDS , Epic 40K, Orks and BATTLEFLEET GOTHIC . In that order.

Not Eldar.

Got my 2nd ed Eldar Codex right here. Says 'Rick Priestley'. And the 3rd ed one says 'Gav Thorpe'.

As mentioned above, someone found the spark of inspiration to flesh out the Tyranids. That someone was Andy C as far as I know. And they were never the same again after he left GW. I thought Blizzard wanted him for Zerg (which were Tyranids with the serial numbers filed off), not Protoss?

Like Jervis says, nobody could find the spark for Squats. It might have been different a decade later. I can imagine that the bigger the company grew, the more likely management would just go "Sort this project out or you don't get paid"... but back then they were still mostly creator-driven, with the original team of writers (well, the first and second wave) still doing the actual writing.

For what it's worth, I got hold of the 40K 2nd ed starter set at age 13, with that excellent Codex Imperialis book that's still my first-stop all-in-one 40K background bedrock touchstone... and even then, to my young and impressionable eyes, the Squats (and Beastmen) didn't feel like they fit into the background.

Orks weren't just Orcs; they had something extra, some indefinable energy and character that made them work in their own right. Eldar weren't just space elves; they had their own thing going on. (That cryptic bit about the old Eldar empire being located where the Eye of Terror is now is still my favourite bit of 40K background. It didn't explain what had happened. It left the implications up to the reader. And it made my 13-year-old self sit back in awe and think, "Wait, hold on, this isn't just a random collection of separate imaginary armies with no connection between them. Somebody's actually sat down and figured out a story for all this." See also: Star Control 2.)

But Squats were... just space dwarfs drinking beer and shouting about bashing greenskin heads. In space.

Except in Epic. They're great in Epic. Land trains are cool.

I think the real problem, as Jervis says, was that they should have dropped them before 2nd ed. Instead we had all these tantalising promises throughout 2nd ed of the 'forthcoming Codex Squats', with future-proofed references to taking allied troops from it in the Imperial Guard Codex and so on. None of which ever eventuated. But no real explanation. And it was years until Jervis set the record straight with that email. So I can understand why people are bitter.

As for later references... there was a totally-not-Squat character in one of Dan Abnett's inquisitor trilogies--was it in Ravenor? That guy who owned the rogue trader ship our heroes hired. Even there he was a running meta-joke. Kept trying to explain about the fate of his people, "the Squa--" and getting interrupted or ignored. But there was a lot of that sort of thing in Ravenor.

The official line currently seems to be that nothing happened to the Squats - they just don't do anything worth talking about.

The stuff about the Tyranids seems to have actually come from the Black Library reprint of Ian Watson's Draco (originally published by GW Books as Inquisitor). the original novel had a framing device of it being Inquisitor Draco's memoirs, hidden in an Inquisitorial archive. the reprint added another framing device of two Inquisitors discussing this memoir and its validity. they mention that there's records of Draco, but they're fragmentary, that the Navis Nobilite and Officio Assassinorum might know more but refuse to say anything and that they can't trace Grimm the Squat because the Tyranids ate them. Now, you could interpret that to mean that only Grimm's Household was destroyed, or that the entirety of the Squat Homeworlds as a force were mostly exterminated or anywhere in between.