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 Overread wrote:
I think GW is setting stormcast up nicely for a big fall with how they've done reforging the ONE big worry I've got is that GW wants to make Stormcast fall like Spacemarines Fell and thus have a huge "stormcast civil war" followed by "cursed stormcast unique model army".


I honestly think that might well have been the plan at some stage, even though GW already has chaos within the AoS setting.

They could still do the above and just say that Stormcast killed so many chaos warriors before and then fell and became a new generation of chaos warriors - which is a bit predictable, but means GW doesn't have to make another huge stormcast army with spikes on it.



I guess my worry is that GW copycats Space marines too much and ends up creating the same problems 40K has in terms of marines and imperials getting the lions share of models and attention. I think AoS is far stronger and better when there isn't a faction dominating the release system.

Please dont give them ideas, That would just make them worse. D:
The issue i find is the people running the setting do not seem to really have many good ideas, its a very bland setting. with some army existing as fun idea blown up to 11. and forgetting the first 9 numbers.
After reading the core book i was left wondering what was there, Its like a setting so scared of letting there players think about what may come in the future.
When i read about the new Lizardmen its just nothing, nothing to bite into and nothing to think about. But real easy to make a design with little thought other than cool model and sell it. Its kinda sad.

I think they have had some good ideas in the new setting - Idoneth Deepkin are pretty cool idea and there is a fair bit going on with them storyline wise.

I am not a big fan of the Morthai faction because it is way too similar to what came before, but the idea of all these mutant elves is also cool.

Fyreslayers were a swing and a miss for me. I love Azers from Dungeons and Dragons, so perhaps I am just disappointed that they are not more similar to them.

The Stormcast are fine. Design wise, they are obviously meant to ape space marines and be a forgiving army for new players. They are really obviously also supposed to be the "main faction" in AoS and the rest are just foils to them, that is clear. So they are following the 40K model.

I dunno. I don't want to be one of those annoying wargaming hipsters that is all like "OPEN YOUR EYES! YOU CAN MAKE YOUR OWN STUFF!" but this has broken my attachment to the fictional worlds of others and left me happily tinkering around in my own imaginary world fitting the minis I like into it for myself. If I like the creepy mer elves, I will put them into my setting happily, and if I don't like the weird fire dwarves I won't. It is a good feeling, and means I don't have to feel particularly strongly about any of the releases or background. I just pick up any models I like (this year I have bought more GW stuff than any year for the last decade, so they are doing something right!) and use them in my roleplaying games.

Eventually, maybe I will have a chance to wargame again, and when I do, I will still be headcannoning the battles as featuring the factions I have created for myself or looted from stuff I think is cool and that will make me a lot happier.

Ultimately the "lore" is unimportant. I think it is a shame that we are not getting the same level of quality and creativity (at least not consistently) that we used to get, but I am not gonna get too bent out of shape over it. I am hoping for AoS to become something better over time, something more unique and interesting. There is a lot of potential and I feel like it is not being reached.

But then look at the Conquest stuff, some of it is extremely interesting and evocative, so maybe the creativity is gonna find it's way out.

Apple fox wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I think GW is setting stormcast up nicely for a big fall with how they've done reforging the ONE big worry I've got is that GW wants to make Stormcast fall like Spacemarines Fell and thus have a huge "stormcast civil war" followed by "cursed stormcast unique model army".


I honestly think that might well have been the plan at some stage, even though GW already has chaos within the AoS setting.

They could still do the above and just say that Stormcast killed so many chaos warriors before and then fell and became a new generation of chaos warriors - which is a bit predictable, but means GW doesn't have to make another huge stormcast army with spikes on it.



I guess my worry is that GW copycats Space marines too much and ends up creating the same problems 40K has in terms of marines and imperials getting the lions share of models and attention. I think AoS is far stronger and better when there isn't a faction dominating the release system.

Please dont give them ideas, That would just make them worse. D:
The issue i find is the people running the setting do not seem to really have many good ideas, its a very bland setting. with some army existing as fun idea blown up to 11. and forgetting the first 9 numbers.
After reading the core book i was left wondering what was there, Its like a setting so scared of letting there players think about what may come in the future.
When i read about the new Lizardmen its just nothing, nothing to bite into and nothing to think about. But real easy to make a design with little thought other than cool model and sell it. Its kinda sad.

Huh. My impression/opinion is the exact opposite on all counts. Certainly a matter of personal preference it seems!

In regards to SCE following the Horus Heresy, I personally see that as highly unlikely. SCE are designed to be superficially similar to space marines, that look obviously has strong appeal after all, but the more fluff one gets into (and the more they write) the more dissimilar they become. I don't think corrupted stormcast will ever be an army. What I could see is other factions replicating the process to create their own versions, but that seems unlikely to be an army even though it has happened at least once in the fluff.

The Realmgate Wars were not the best start for the series lore I think - whilst they do set the tone and establish the beginning of the age they are somewhat far too much war than lore books for setting the scene. Stormcast are also in their prime best in those books and come off rather mary sue (marching for days on end without food; holding off assault after assault and then conducting a massive war at the end etc....).

I think the lore has improved a lot since then though there were still some early gems (like Pestilens). Also books like the Novellas and the Inferno stories have really picked up the pace and quailty. I think the writers are happier with the setting, I think GW's lore people have a better grasp on what is going on and I think the only thing holding it back now is a lack of dates and continuity. Whilst the vast size of the realms means that something like Carrion Empire can have its own story and setting and yet have no impact on the greater realms and world around it; it also means that its hard to tell does that come before the necroquake, after, during etc.... I think once GW starts to set down some rough dates, some markers in time and space; establish key cities and regions I think then we'll see the lore take new bold steps.

I think that is an accurate assessment. I still have a certain nostalgia for those books though! The good ole days when the community was tiny but we did our own point costs.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I think GW is setting stormcast up nicely for a big fall with how they've done reforging the ONE big worry I've got is that GW wants to make Stormcast fall like Spacemarines Fell and thus have a huge "stormcast civil war" followed by "cursed stormcast unique model army".


I honestly think that might well have been the plan at some stage, even though GW already has chaos within the AoS setting.

They could still do the above and just say that Stormcast killed so many chaos warriors before and then fell and became a new generation of chaos warriors - which is a bit predictable, but means GW doesn't have to make another huge stormcast army with spikes on it.



I guess my worry is that GW copycats Space marines too much and ends up creating the same problems 40K has in terms of marines and imperials getting the lions share of models and attention. I think AoS is far stronger and better when there isn't a faction dominating the release system.

Please dont give them ideas, That would just make them worse. D:
The issue i find is the people running the setting do not seem to really have many good ideas, its a very bland setting. with some army existing as fun idea blown up to 11. and forgetting the first 9 numbers.
After reading the core book i was left wondering what was there, Its like a setting so scared of letting there players think about what may come in the future.
When i read about the new Lizardmen its just nothing, nothing to bite into and nothing to think about. But real easy to make a design with little thought other than cool model and sell it. Its kinda sad.

Huh. My impression/opinion is the exact opposite on all counts. Certainly a matter of personal preference it seems!

In regards to SCE following the Horus Heresy, I personally see that as highly unlikely. SCE are designed to be superficially similar to space marines, that look obviously has strong appeal after all, but the more fluff one gets into (and the more they write) the more dissimilar they become. I don't think corrupted stormcast will ever be an army. What I could see is other factions replicating the process to create their own versions, but that seems unlikely to be an army even though it has happened at least once in the fluff.

well personal taste is not something i would specifically speak against, And i have only really had the core book to experience the setting. With the new box. But considering how large it is, i found it impressively vague and non committal at times.
It left me rather unimpressed, and disappointed. After the first half the of the book i still feel like they forgot most of the setting, Still little idea of what i would even look at to see if there is more to the setting.
Considering this box was $240, and the book goes for $100 or something. Most settings i am used to can just put much more into half the space, for close to half the price.
I have some interest in the setting, i like high fantasy.
But it feels just like they saying its really big, but the setting is just really small. Better like the stormcast or death, since the studio wont really get far outside of that D:
Maybe its all recovery for the pathetic managment of the setting before release. And in the next few years will be great. I just not seeing it now :(

The Big Rulebook was rather like that, it was a flavour of the world set and established the near infinite possibilities of the realms. If you want stories and characters beyond the basic plot of the beginning then you've got to dip into battletomes and books themselves.

I'd say grab something like the Inferno books or the Novellas and have a read of some of the short stories.

 Overread wrote:
The Big Rulebook was rather like that, it was a flavour of the world set and established the near infinite possibilities of the realms. If you want stories and characters beyond the basic plot of the beginning then you've got to dip into battletomes and books themselves.

I'd say grab something like the Inferno books or the Novellas and have a read of some of the short stories.

I would just say the big book sucked, paying more for the setting to get interesting is a bit of a nope for me at this point. The book is huge, and it’s stale. I had been sitting here re reading bits of it.
Picked up one of the books originally but had not had the desire to read it.
But I still hold that for a huge book it should be way better, I have rpg books under 100pages that can get more across for there setting.

I find the opposite. I read an RPG book and always get the sense that I need to read a bunch of other ones before understanding the setting. Warhammer goes over broad terms and gives a summary so I can now go read any of the army books and get it.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I find the opposite. I read an RPG book and always get the sense that I need to read a bunch of other ones before understanding the setting. Warhammer goes over broad terms and gives a summary so I can now go read any of the army books and get it.

Just reading though this thread does not give much to that, Your first post comes off as not very encouraging. But otherwise stuck at this point. Its been two years hasn't it, or 3 now ;p how long will it take for GW to get stuff done. If i get the army book for one of the army will that be much about the race.

In the end it all costs money, lots of money. And with little interest in stormcast, and less interest now in the undead after reading about them. I am left sitting here wondering what is left in the setting to get excited about. Chaos comes off more of a rehash of whats come before, And the other factions come off as more simplifications of the factions themselves rather than anything new and unique.

Best things so far have been when they've created something new. Both Kharadron and the Idoneth are great concepts.

Apple fox wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I find the opposite. I read an RPG book and always get the sense that I need to read a bunch of other ones before understanding the setting. Warhammer goes over broad terms and gives a summary so I can now go read any of the army books and get it.

Just reading though this thread does not give much to that, Your first post comes off as not very encouraging. But otherwise stuck at this point. Its been two years hasn't it, or 3 now ;p how long will it take for GW to get stuff done. If i get the army book for one of the army will that be much about the race.

In the end it all costs money, lots of money. And with little interest in stormcast, and less interest now in the undead after reading about them. I am left sitting here wondering what is left in the setting to get excited about. Chaos comes off more of a rehash of whats come before, And the other factions come off as more simplifications of the factions themselves rather than anything new and unique.

Yeah, Seraphon are in a strange place lore-wise.

 Eldarain wrote:
Best things so far have been when they've created something new. Both Kharadron and the Idoneth are great concepts.

I go back and forth on Kharadrons. Most of them is cool then the weird magic gas rears its head. Idoneth are one of the two elven factions I actually like though. Out of every kind of elf I know about.

Seraphon. The worst idea GW has EVER come up with. Lizardmen were great. Seraphon are whack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Apple fox wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I think GW is setting stormcast up nicely for a big fall with how they've done reforging the ONE big worry I've got is that GW wants to make Stormcast fall like Spacemarines Fell and thus have a huge "stormcast civil war" followed by "cursed stormcast unique model army".


I honestly think that might well have been the plan at some stage, even though GW already has chaos within the AoS setting.

They could still do the above and just say that Stormcast killed so many chaos warriors before and then fell and became a new generation of chaos warriors - which is a bit predictable, but means GW doesn't have to make another huge stormcast army with spikes on it.



I guess my worry is that GW copycats Space marines too much and ends up creating the same problems 40K has in terms of marines and imperials getting the lions share of models and attention. I think AoS is far stronger and better when there isn't a faction dominating the release system.

Please dont give them ideas, That would just make them worse. D:
The issue i find is the people running the setting do not seem to really have many good ideas, its a very bland setting. with some army existing as fun idea blown up to 11. and forgetting the first 9 numbers.
After reading the core book i was left wondering what was there, Its like a setting so scared of letting there players think about what may come in the future.
When i read about the new Lizardmen its just nothing, nothing to bite into and nothing to think about. But real easy to make a design with little thought other than cool model and sell it. Its kinda sad.

This here is the absolute truth

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I find the opposite. I read an RPG book and always get the sense that I need to read a bunch of other ones before understanding the setting. Warhammer goes over broad terms and gives a summary so I can now go read any of the army books and get it.

Having now read the rule book and a couple of battletomes I borrowed from friends, while I can agree that the core book sets the tone well enough if you take it for what it is, I'm not sure I'm really happy with that tone. It basically told me two things:

1. The setting is pretty devoid of meaning, people, history and landmarks because it tries to portray a near infinite world on a very finite number of pages.

2. People can't brush their teeth successfully unless some Sigmarines come to their aid.

I wouldn't call the setting bland, but very, very empty. People keep hoping that in time that will change as GW adds more lore, but I don't think it will ever lose that feeling entirely. We'll get focal points like the cities of Order to be sure, but with endless wilderness in between them that could be home to anything, really, or nothing at all.

I also read the Sigmarine book (and Flesh Eater Courts, more on that in a bit) and while I'm not surprised that a book about a strictly military organization is mostly concerned with how they organize and fight and adds precious little else to the world, I found what I read in the book hard to reconcile with the ideas people put forward that Sigmarines are not the designated good guys of the setting and instead more nuanced because they have inbuilt "flaws" that make them murderous order fanatics. Of course the latter is not GW's fault, but being exposed to the interpretations before the actual background, I find it jarring how much effort GW invests in portraying Sigmarines, and thus as an extension of Sigmar's will Sigmar himself, as the ultimate good guys of the setting, the only ones who can get anything done and the only ones who can stand against Chaos (and are so successful in it that they stand apart even further.

Most amazing to me was how overt the different presentations of Sigmarines and Flesh Eater Courts were. Maybe I'm dwelling on ancient history here, but I am used to GW writing their army books with a clear protagonist bias. In the War of the Beard, who the victim of foreign aggression is changes depending on whether you read the Dwarf of High Elf book. So far, so normal. Sigmarines could have gotten away with it, too. Chaos? Universal evil. Sigmar losing his hammer? Evil Chaos tricks. Undead that were allied to us just yesterday but now getting in the way? Yep, they're evil too. Gryph-hounds being noble creatures because they have a hatred for evil things. Yep, whatever they don't like is evil. No problem, really. Sigmarines being full of themselves and seeing themselves as the ultimate good guys is not a problem. That's subjective perspective and quite flavorful.

By contrast you look at the way Flesh Eater Courts is written. Conventionally you would think, yep, they're a little eccentric, but it's their book so they'll keep the whole cannibal monster thing in the background and describe instead how the whole thing is actually totally fine. And you'd think that was an effective way of writing, too. Imagine if the book was written to introduce the concept of the Abhorrent delusions in the beginning but then going on to write the book from the perspective of those Abhorrents. Cease mentioning the delusion and just let the reader immerse themselves in the same fiction the Flesh Eater Courts suffer from, only to then, sparingly and at the right time, switch to the real happenings and remind the reader that they are rooting for the guys that just ate a bunch of orphans that were not in fact fearsome trolls, no matter how hard you squint. Instead the writers thought it was a good idea to immediately follow the delusion with an explanation of what's really going on, every single time. They seem fearful of allowing the reader to relate to the perspective of their chosen army.

This kind of thing gives me the impression that Age of Sigmar is far closer to that Mary Sue appearance Overread mentioned even now than people used to more nuanced writing even just in the context of GW are happy with. Speaking only for myself, I was all too happy to let Age of Sigmar settle in and get the setting straight after the bumpy start the game had, but I'm not getting the impression that the studio writers are interested in writing a functioning world and anything that might contribute to that is a mere byproduct of enabling buff dudes to punch each other. I'm still not getting that "why we fight" feeling from the army books I read that so successfully used to get me into 40k, Fantasy and their side games.

I think the writers who work for GW were hamstringed in trying to flesh out the world, by its infinite elements. I really hope that Free Peoples come to the fore and that GW starts to give us more meaningful maps of the core regions of their realms. I think once we've got places in space and time that are relative we'll start to see the lore pull together.

Right now sometimes its ahrd to get behind the impact of a war or battle because you've no means to really see it in the grand picture and GW is trying the whole "the grand picture is so vast and infinite that its impossible to see" argument. Which is annoying because then every struggle fizzles at the larger scale and you have to rely purely upon characters - which is hard right now because GW is still finding their feet with establishing characters.


In Old World if Nuln was destroyed by Chaos we'd know it would have been a huge impact on the world setting, that many mages would be weakened, that GW might even tie it to a major event in the game world etc... So it adds gravity even if we also know that 90% of the time major events don't actually pan out to end result (eg if Terra is invaded in 40K we know Space Marines will likely win). Right now in AoS a lot of the Free Peoples settlements are all one and the same because we've no real map reference of how they relate to each other nor any real idea of how important some are over others. Though this also means we can see more change and win and loss within the setting. So in some ways there's a good angle too. We don't have to expect static battle-lines over the entirity of the game and the huge scale means GW can shift the boundaries without factions risking becoming "squatted" by the story.

Part of my interest in Warcry is that I want to see what the writers do with a down to earth setting where they don't have to worry about limitless realms, millions of warriors and the interference of actual gods.

Age of Sigmar could use a real focus on these smaller settings to give a real taste of what life is like for the average person, specifically outside of that one time armies duke it out on their front lawn.

 Geifer wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I find the opposite. I read an RPG book and always get the sense that I need to read a bunch of other ones before understanding the setting. Warhammer goes over broad terms and gives a summary so I can now go read any of the army books and get it.

By contrast you look at the way Flesh Eater Courts is written. Conventionally you would think, yep, they're a little eccentric, but it's their book so they'll keep the whole cannibal monster thing in the background and describe instead how the whole thing is actually totally fine. And you'd think that was an effective way of writing, too. Imagine if the book was written to introduce the concept of the Abhorrent delusions in the beginning but then going on to write the book from the perspective of those Abhorrents. Cease mentioning the delusion and just let the reader immerse themselves in the same fiction the Flesh Eater Courts suffer from, only to then, sparingly and at the right time, switch to the real happenings and remind the reader that they are rooting for the guys that just ate a bunch of orphans that were not in fact fearsome trolls, no matter how hard you squint. Instead the writers thought it was a good idea to immediately follow the delusion with an explanation of what's really going on, every single time. They seem fearful of allowing the reader to relate to the perspective of their chosen army.

Bioshock 2 has a section like that that I loved. You wander through a bit of Rapture seeing everything as this amazing high class city with marble and gold everywhere, rose petals on the ground and classy well dressed people wandering out socialising. But there are flashes where you get to see the reality of things. Rapture is a ruin, the petals are pools of blood and the people are in rags hunting for prey as monstrous junkies.

To the premise of the thread, Lizardmen currently have very weird background. Some people probably really like it, and others not so much. I am in the latter category.

Of the people who like the look or playstyle of Lizardmen but not the background material, I think it would be a small enough number who would decide not to play based on story alone. Likewise, people who love the background will play due to that whatever. There is a small group of people who will not play because they did not like the background, but really, Lizardmen seem to sell well and be popular mostly on the miniature concepts and play mechanics.

I don't think they will get "squatted" because of the weird background.

I hesitate to say "poor", because I think what they have done is certainly interesting in concept. I don't like it, but I can't always be ragging on GW for not doing things differently or taking risks with this stuff and then be really butthurt the one time they do something pretty out there with a faction.

But reading the battletome did not make me want to play the army. I want to play the army because I love the general concept of dinosaur men riding dinosaurs with aztec trappings. When I read the 5th edition army book, goofy as it was, it gave me a much clearer idea of who the lizardmen were and what they were about than the battletome does. Does not help that it is an expensive hardback book with little content in it.

But I still bought a Start Collecting boxed set AND the big box at christmas, and I will probably pick up even more over time. I am enthusiastic about the miniatures, regardless of the lore.

I am a huge Josh Reynolds fan. Love his writing, and what he has done has helped to further detail the general setting, it will likely take time for the less popular? forces to get more written about them. Seraphon are pretty alien to humans so it may be hard to write from their perspective. There was some lore in the old warhammer army books on lizardmen but I dont really recall much else.

I'm a huge fan of the star ship art from the malign portents story:

https://malignportents.com/story/dying-star/

Yeah, that's pretty cool.

Honestly the reason I don't like seraphon is I feel they should have been more dragonmen to tie into Dracothion, rather than them just porting Aztec Dinosaur-riding Lizardmen into AOS.

I think dinosaur people are fine, but Lizardmen really suffer from Age of Sigmar ramping up the crazy but Lizardmen, being stuck as they are with a model line made for an entirely different setting, not getting the model support needed to actually overhaul them means we get crackpot ideas like lizardy order daemons dreamed into existence by giant stoned frogs.

GW could have taken what was there, the idea of a technologically advanced, space-faring lizard race, and gone with it all the way. They could fly around the realms and still be totally anti Chaos, and to keep with the AoS theme blend science and magic instead of going full sci-fi. But that would require new models with laser guns and stuff to actually get some high tech into the faction. And since they didn't get new models, the writers are stuck with having to make do with what they have got.

I am really happy that they did not turn the Lizardmen into space police, because at least this way I had time to pick up the minis I wanted from the Start Collecting sets etc.

I actually thought Lizardmen got one of the cooler transitions to the AoS setting compared to the other factions, and it really interested me! Compare them to something like Tomb Kings, for instance, that really did get "squatted"... it was also cool that they played a pivotal role in events and, in a sense, were one of the only factions to "win" with the destruction of the Old World (even with the loss of almost all but the Slann...). I do think they're being held back by poor models, though - hopefully GW rectifies this...

Also note, I've moved this thread to the new AoS Background forum, but left a pointer here in the general area so people don't lose track of it

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

In regards to SCE following the Horus Heresy, I personally see that as highly unlikely. SCE are designed to be superficially similar to space marines, that look obviously has strong appeal after all, but the more fluff one gets into (and the more they write) the more dissimilar they become. I don't think corrupted stormcast will ever be an army. What I could see is other factions replicating the process to create their own versions, but that seems unlikely to be an army even though it has happened at least once in the fluff.

If anything, I see a strong resemblance to the Necrons in the nature of the Stormcast Eternals.

Just me being pedantic, I suppose, but I see it often said that the Seraphon are like Aztec Lizard People, when I believe the more apt analogy would be Mayan Lizard People.

Quasistellar wrote:
Just me being pedantic, I suppose, but I see it often said that the Seraphon are like Aztec Lizard People, when I believe the more apt analogy would be Mayan Lizard People.

Most people don't know enough about pre-European Mezoamerican culture to know the difference. "Aztec" is just shorthand for "Ancient Mexican/South American culture". Hell, I studied the pre-European Americas, and I still get the two confused sometimes.

I see no evidence that Seraphon mighht be squatted, and they were the only WHFB faction whose model range were ported over to AoS intact.
Seraphon also appeared in AoS army boxsets recently (last Chriustmas). I doubt they are going anywhere.

That being said if anything disappears GW might not issue a warning. One of my main bugbears with current GW management policy is that stock lines disappear with zero warning.