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 Wyzilla wrote:
And the issue isn't "quibbiling over definitions", the issue is that "fascist" and "nazi" have specific socio-economic and political structures that the Imperium is literally incapable of replicating as a completely disorganized byzantine horror reminiscent of the Holy Roman Empire at its worst with naught even a centralized form of currency to speak of. It's more a matter of actually understanding definitions to properly label things instead of carelessly slinging words around.

Pretty sure they come up in the "Live for the state" and "Mass extermination" uses quite regularly while discussing 40k. I've said this before, most people don't know squat about the holy roman empire so they draw parallels they actually know something about. Which do clearly exist as well.

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
And the issue isn't "quibbiling over definitions", the issue is that "fascist" and "nazi" have specific socio-economic and political structures that the Imperium is literally incapable of replicating as a completely disorganized byzantine horror reminiscent of the Holy Roman Empire at its worst with naught even a centralized form of currency to speak of. It's more a matter of actually understanding definitions to properly label things instead of carelessly slinging words around.

Pretty sure they come up in the "Live for the state" and "Mass extermination" uses quite regularly while discussing 40k. I've said this before, most people don't know squat about the holy roman empire so they draw parallels they actually know something about. Which do clearly exist as well.

Considering that ideology and reality of state structure are often far apart one could forgive them.

The ideology is clearly totalitarianistic at its goal, it tries to get to an utopia, and belives in the superiority of themselves.
However no real large scale economic policy was issued by the emperor making the empire rather off.

Reality for it is though fragmented, splintered and multiple players within viying for power. Therefore the actual Organisation of the empire is more a failed feudalistic wannabee totalitarian state.
Failing even at a common monetary policy.
Structure of government or even common religious practice.

In this thread, people confuse fascist with totalitarian dystopia, good with necessity and completely shorn in half and besieged by myriad enemies bent on its destruction with lighter.

There's hope?

Cadia has fallen. Chaos has split the Imperium in two.

The return of one Loyalist Primarch has already cause three Daemon Primarchs to turn their gaze outside the Eye, with at least two more already moving in that direction.

The Gray Shield Crusade collapsed under it's own bureaucratic weight without returning the Imperium to it's prior status quo, leaving even Guilliman disappointed and scrambling in a transition to a smaller scale Plan B focused on his own Ultramar rather than the Imperium at large.

His Primaris marines have set the stage for a potential schism among the loyalist chapters who either have a secret to hide(The Unforgiven), or ego to protect (Gabrial Seth).

Without a peer to call him on it, he's repeating many of the mistakes either he, or the Emperor made in the past - getting his fleet shot up by Fulgrim - leaving his "children" feeling abandoned/unappreciated (Calgar)

The most likely peer to return - Lion El Johnson - is fundamentally wired differently when it comes to things like acceptable losses, collateral damage, and the costs of victory meaning if/when he does return - without a third primarch to tie-break - that peer is more likely to paralyze both in debate than keep each other headed in the right direction.

The peer best suited to be that tie-breaker as respected by both enough to allow him to over-rule them is one of the least likely to return - without a major story event above and beyond the return of Johnson - because he died fighting Horus.

Who knows what machinations the Ecclesiarchy have in store for Guilliman and his opposition to their role in society? The lore is replete with stories of planetary governors sacrificing their own planet and people to preserve their own status and power- and the Ecclisiarchy have far more status and power.

We have many new chapters of Primaris Marines, as well as most of the old chapters being reinforced with Primaris replacements to boot. Which is helpful because so many chapters have been devastated as well. How many Blood Angels and successors were left after the Devastation of Baal?


I don't see there being more hope in this new millenium, the hope is just different. Every step forward has been matched with at least one step back somewhere else.

WRT the Holy Roman Empire, obviously, yeah. I mean check my location, I know about it. And it is one source of inspiration for the Imperium.
But another huge source of inspiration is obviously, OBVIOUSLY, totalitarian fascist and communist governments. Mass sterilisation, genocide, extreme xenophobia, literal worship of the leader, constant reference to the existential threat to mankind's existance as the justification for all of this, along with eugenics and all the rest. It is plain as day!

The fact that you guys have accepted the in game propoganda that this is the only way for the Imperium to survive rather than for example having a more open society, allowing actual research and free thought to come up with new technological ideas rather than mindlessly worshipping the achievements of the past etc, well that is on you. To me, it is an obvious, glowing neon signpost to the fact that the way the Imperium is "saving humanity" is wrong, and not justified, and in fact counter productive (why do you think Chaos is so strong? They are the reflection of the sheer misery of the uncounted trillions existing in the horror of the Imperium, it is creating it's own enemy).

God damn I love the original ideas in 40K. Talking about that stuff is really making me want to paint some genocidal super soldiers for the first time in about six years.

I do apologise for using some crappy language in my earlier post though. It was not polite.

 Da Boss wrote:
WRT the Holy Roman Empire, obviously, yeah. I mean check my location, I know about it. And it is one source of inspiration for the Imperium.
But another huge source of inspiration is obviously, OBVIOUSLY, totalitarian fascist and communist governments. Mass sterilisation, genocide, extreme xenophobia, literal worship of the leader, constant reference to the existential threat to mankind's existance as the justification for all of this, along with eugenics and all the rest. It is plain as day!

The fact that you guys have accepted the in game propoganda that this is the only way for the Imperium to survive rather than for example having a more open society, allowing actual research and free thought to come up with new technological ideas rather than mindlessly worshipping the achievements of the past etc, well that is on you. To me, it is an obvious, glowing neon signpost to the fact that the way the Imperium is "saving humanity" is wrong, and not justified, and in fact counter productive (why do you think Chaos is so strong? They are the reflection of the sheer misery of the uncounted trillions existing in the horror of the Imperium, it is creating it's own enemy).

God damn I love the original ideas in 40K. Talking about that stuff is really making me want to paint some genocidal super soldiers for the first time in about six years.

I do apologise for using some crappy language in my earlier post though. It was not polite.

Make a Purge warband if you really want genocide super human.

Breton wrote:
There's hope?

Cadia has fallen. Chaos has split the Imperium in two.

The return of one Loyalist Primarch has already cause three Daemon Primarchs to turn their gaze outside the Eye, with at least two more already moving in that direction.

The Gray Shield Crusade collapsed under it's own bureaucratic weight without returning the Imperium to it's prior status quo, leaving even Guilliman disappointed and scrambling in a transition to a smaller scale Plan B focused on his own Ultramar rather than the Imperium at large.

His Primaris marines have set the stage for a potential schism among the loyalist chapters who either have a secret to hide(The Unforgiven), or ego to protect (Gabrial Seth).

Without a peer to call him on it, he's repeating many of the mistakes either he, or the Emperor made in the past - getting his fleet shot up by Fulgrim - leaving his "children" feeling abandoned/unappreciated (Calgar)

The most likely peer to return - Lion El Johnson - is fundamentally wired differently when it comes to things like acceptable losses, collateral damage, and the costs of victory meaning if/when he does return - without a third primarch to tie-break - that peer is more likely to paralyze both in debate than keep each other headed in the right direction.

The peer best suited to be that tie-breaker as respected by both enough to allow him to over-rule them is one of the least likely to return - without a major story event above and beyond the return of Johnson - because he died fighting Horus.

Who knows what machinations the Ecclesiarchy have in store for Guilliman and his opposition to their role in society? The lore is replete with stories of planetary governors sacrificing their own planet and people to preserve their own status and power- and the Ecclisiarchy have far more status and power.

We have many new chapters of Primaris Marines, as well as most of the old chapters being reinforced with Primaris replacements to boot. Which is helpful because so many chapters have been devastated as well. How many Blood Angels and successors were left after the Devastation of Baal?


I don't see there being more hope in this new millenium, the hope is just different. Every step forward has been matched with at least one step back somewhere else.

What grand effects did this have on Orks? Necrons? Tau? Eldar of all kinds?

 Da Boss wrote:
WRT the Holy Roman Empire, obviously, yeah. I mean check my location, I know about it. And it is one source of inspiration for the Imperium.
But another huge source of inspiration is obviously, OBVIOUSLY, totalitarian fascist and communist governments. Mass sterilisation, genocide, extreme xenophobia, literal worship of the leader, constant reference to the existential threat to mankind's existance as the justification for all of this, along with eugenics and all the rest. It is plain as day!

The fact that you guys have accepted the in game propoganda that this is the only way for the Imperium to survive rather than for example having a more open society, allowing actual research and free thought to come up with new technological ideas rather than mindlessly worshipping the achievements of the past etc, well that is on you. To me, it is an obvious, glowing neon signpost to the fact that the way the Imperium is "saving humanity" is wrong, and not justified, and in fact counter productive (why do you think Chaos is so strong? They are the reflection of the sheer misery of the uncounted trillions existing in the horror of the Imperium, it is creating it's own enemy).

God damn I love the original ideas in 40K. Talking about that stuff is really making me want to paint some genocidal super soldiers for the first time in about six years.

I do apologise for using some crappy language in my earlier post though. It was not polite.

Chaos isn't strong because of the Imperium or humanity. It literally predates the human species altogether and goes all the way back to the War in Heaven. The issue is that things in 40k are simply that bad when genocide and idolatry of leaders is the only way to survive because the mirror dimension of the universe is actively trying to devour reality and enslave everybody.

 Da Boss wrote:
WRT the Holy Roman Empire, obviously, yeah. I mean check my location, I know about it. And it is one source of inspiration for the Imperium.
But another huge source of inspiration is obviously, OBVIOUSLY, totalitarian fascist and communist governments. Mass sterilisation, genocide, extreme xenophobia, literal worship of the leader, constant reference to the existential threat to mankind's existance as the justification for all of this, along with eugenics and all the rest. It is plain as day!
.

yeah but their point is it's not centralized. the idea of a state as decentralized as the Imperium of Mankind is (by necessity in fairness) would give a facist dictator like Hitler or Mussilini nightmares. one oif the defining traits of facism is a strong central leadership. which the IoM distinctly lacks, heck until very recently no one could even name one of the high lords of terra. in a facist state you'd be able to name the supreme leader, and he'd have a personality cult surrounding him (Gulliman's return actually in a sense moves the IoM CLOSER to facism. lighter setting eh? )

And before you claim the cult exists in the form of the Imperial Cult. the Emperor is not the ruler of the IoM. He may reign, but he does not RULE

 Blndmage wrote:

Breton wrote:
There's hope?

Cadia has fallen. Chaos has split the Imperium in two.

The return of one Loyalist Primarch has already cause three Daemon Primarchs to turn their gaze outside the Eye, with at least two more already moving in that direction.

The Gray Shield Crusade collapsed under it's own bureaucratic weight without returning the Imperium to it's prior status quo, leaving even Guilliman disappointed and scrambling in a transition to a smaller scale Plan B focused on his own Ultramar rather than the Imperium at large.

His Primaris marines have set the stage for a potential schism among the loyalist chapters who either have a secret to hide(The Unforgiven), or ego to protect (Gabrial Seth).

Without a peer to call him on it, he's repeating many of the mistakes either he, or the Emperor made in the past - getting his fleet shot up by Fulgrim - leaving his "children" feeling abandoned/unappreciated (Calgar)

The most likely peer to return - Lion El Johnson - is fundamentally wired differently when it comes to things like acceptable losses, collateral damage, and the costs of victory meaning if/when he does return - without a third primarch to tie-break - that peer is more likely to paralyze both in debate than keep each other headed in the right direction.

The peer best suited to be that tie-breaker as respected by both enough to allow him to over-rule them is one of the least likely to return - without a major story event above and beyond the return of Johnson - because he died fighting Horus.

Who knows what machinations the Ecclesiarchy have in store for Guilliman and his opposition to their role in society? The lore is replete with stories of planetary governors sacrificing their own planet and people to preserve their own status and power- and the Ecclisiarchy have far more status and power.

We have many new chapters of Primaris Marines, as well as most of the old chapters being reinforced with Primaris replacements to boot. Which is helpful because so many chapters have been devastated as well. How many Blood Angels and successors were left after the Devastation of Baal?


I don't see there being more hope in this new millenium, the hope is just different. Every step forward has been matched with at least one step back somewhere else.

What grand effects did this have on Orks? Necrons? Tau? Eldar of all kinds?

Well with the Imperium in increasing disarray the Tau have expanded, heck the Tau have been allowed to survive to a point where they've actually got a chance provided the Imperium doesn't focus upon them. Securing more worlds and didn' tthey also hop-skip and jump across the galaxy at one point with a fleet.

The Orks had a Hive Fleet deflected right into them so both armies ground on each other like crazy for a long while, though I believe this hive fleet is now defeated so the orks are - at large - more mobile and sporting for some more fun.

Tyranids are building a huge planet sized construct, the focus of which no one knows and the last hive fleet was defeated by a demonic incursion (remembering that most times a hive fleet penetrates far into the Imperium a Space Marine chapter gets mostly eaten to nothing)

Eldar appear to be possibly doing the best of all the races, however when you consider that their best is basically a fragmented, shattered people who have to operate in the shadows its not all that brilliant a position. They have some hope, but they'ev had the least for a long time.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
WRT the Holy Roman Empire, obviously, yeah. I mean check my location, I know about it. And it is one source of inspiration for the Imperium.
But another huge source of inspiration is obviously, OBVIOUSLY, totalitarian fascist and communist governments. Mass sterilisation, genocide, extreme xenophobia, literal worship of the leader, constant reference to the existential threat to mankind's existance as the justification for all of this, along with eugenics and all the rest. It is plain as day!
.

yeah but their point is it's not centralized. the idea of a state as decentralized as the Imperium of Mankind is (by necessity in fairness) would give a facist dictator like Hitler or Mussilini nightmares. one oif the defining traits of facism is a strong central leadership. which the IoM distinctly lacks, heck until very recently no one could even name one of the high lords of terra. in a facist state you'd be able to name the supreme leader, and he'd have a personality cult surrounding him (Gulliman's return actually in a sense moves the IoM CLOSER to facism. lighter setting eh? )

And before you claim the cult exists in the form of the Imperial Cult. the Emperor is not the ruler of the IoM. He may reign, but he does not RULE

Yeah, the Emperor is just a figure head. He's closer in purpose to the Japanese Emperor than the Roman Emperor.
The true rulers of the Imperial are the High Lords. They are the ones who make the decisions.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
WRT the Holy Roman Empire, obviously, yeah. I mean check my location, I know about it. And it is one source of inspiration for the Imperium.
But another huge source of inspiration is obviously, OBVIOUSLY, totalitarian fascist and communist governments. Mass sterilisation, genocide, extreme xenophobia, literal worship of the leader, constant reference to the existential threat to mankind's existance as the justification for all of this, along with eugenics and all the rest. It is plain as day!
.

yeah but their point is it's not centralized. the idea of a state as decentralized as the Imperium of Mankind is (by necessity in fairness) would give a facist dictator like Hitler or Mussilini nightmares. one oif the defining traits of facism is a strong central leadership. which the IoM distinctly lacks, heck until very recently no one could even name one of the high lords of terra. in a facist state you'd be able to name the supreme leader, and he'd have a personality cult surrounding him (Gulliman's return actually in a sense moves the IoM CLOSER to facism. lighter setting eh? )

And before you claim the cult exists in the form of the Imperial Cult. the Emperor is not the ruler of the IoM. He may reign, but he does not RULE

Yeah, the Emperor is just a figure head. He's closer in purpose to the Japanese Emperor than the Roman Emperor.
The true rulers of the Imperial are the High Lords. They are the ones who make the decisions.

We are talking about the HRE emperor which is in essence ranging between allpowerfull and a limp noodle over history. Not the roman emperor.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
WRT the Holy Roman Empire, obviously, yeah. I mean check my location, I know about it. And it is one source of inspiration for the Imperium.
But another huge source of inspiration is obviously, OBVIOUSLY, totalitarian fascist and communist governments. Mass sterilisation, genocide, extreme xenophobia, literal worship of the leader, constant reference to the existential threat to mankind's existance as the justification for all of this, along with eugenics and all the rest. It is plain as day!
.

yeah but their point is it's not centralized. the idea of a state as decentralized as the Imperium of Mankind is (by necessity in fairness) would give a facist dictator like Hitler or Mussilini nightmares. one oif the defining traits of facism is a strong central leadership. which the IoM distinctly lacks, heck until very recently no one could even name one of the high lords of terra. in a facist state you'd be able to name the supreme leader, and he'd have a personality cult surrounding him (Gulliman's return actually in a sense moves the IoM CLOSER to facism. lighter setting eh? )

And before you claim the cult exists in the form of the Imperial Cult. the Emperor is not the ruler of the IoM. He may reign, but he does not RULE

Yeah, the Emperor is just a figure head. He's closer in purpose to the Japanese Emperor than the Roman Emperor.
The true rulers of the Imperial are the High Lords. They are the ones who make the decisions.

We are talking about the HRE emperor which is in essence ranging between allpowerfull and a limp noodle over history. Not the roman emperor.

So? Still a different type of emperor.
The Emperor does not rule over the Imperium. He used to, but he can't anymore.

I was on board until primaris marines. It would have been neat to see new-wave primarchs. Do away with the old ones, and have essentially heresy volume 2.

 Marmatag wrote:
I was on board until primaris marines. It would have been neat to see new-wave primarchs. Do away with the old ones, and have essentially heresy volume 2.

James Swallow wrote a book featuring a "new wave Primarch" and the fans gak blood over it. Replacement Primarch would be more unpopular with the internet mob than Primaris are.

 Da Boss wrote:


The fact that you guys have accepted the in game propoganda that this is the only way for the Imperium to survive rather than for example having a more open society, allowing actual research and free thought to come up with new technological ideas rather than mindlessly worshipping the achievements of the past etc, well that is on you.

This is being explored in the return of Guilliman, a little. Or at least hinted at the idea that it will be explored with his tension with the Ecclesiarchy. I also love the two birds way they're also chicken/egg'ing the Emperor's deification. Was he a god? Is he now a God because of the worship? If the Warp could make the Chaos Gods, could it make the Emperor a God and so on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blndmage wrote:
What grand effects did this have on Orks? Necrons? Tau? Eldar of all kinds?

Well I'm pretty sure the Orks and Nids have neither hope nor despair to begin with, so I'm not sure they were part of the discussion. The Necrons haven't been very visible, so who knows what they're up to. Sadly they've missed out on the past couple narratives. Eldar got some hope from the Ynnead, followed quickly by a devastating clash with the Imperium and Ultramarines on Vigilus based around both a miscommunication, and the poor decision-making of xenophobia remaining omnipresent in a reflection of US 60's Civil Rights history - a little hope tempered with a long winding road with no end in sight from the current time.

 Andersp90 wrote:


In "the devastation of ball", Guilliman showed up with his primaris mariens shortly after the rift was formed. We are talking days. No sure how that fits with the rest of the timeline.

In depends on who's perspective. Devastation of Baal mentions (page 502) that for the Angels, about 6 months had passed for the duration of the book, but due to the Warp Storms, it was about 70 years for the rest of the galaxy.
They basically missed out on everything going to hell while dying in their bug-filled personal hell.

Mind you, big RG showing up with Even More Better replacements for all their losses (and a portable way to make more, if they lower their standards), rather undermines their losses, but that actually may have been the point.

 Marmatag wrote:
I was on board until primaris marines. It would have been neat to see new-wave primarchs. Do away with the old ones, and have essentially heresy volume 2.

The Primaris are a game mechanic trying to "fix" Space Marines. It'll help, but it won't fix them. The problem with the game isn't the units, its the D6. There isn't enough room on a D6 unless they start adding modifiers out the wazoo. Generally 1 always fails - so the D6 only has room for 5 results that may or may not succeed. They have to try and make a 6 "always" succeed so there's always a chance and people won't rage quit over not having that chance. So now you're down to 4 results to differentiate what 30-40 different unit/armor/weapon types for 15-16? different basic armies among 11 or so different races? There's a reason we've started to Shorthand units as MEQ. TEQ, etc. 200 points of 20 1 wound models with 20 shooting phases will still beat 200 points of 10 2 would models with 10 shooting phases - especially in a world with multi-wound weapons.

I'm not convinced we won't see a "new" wave of the "old" Primarchs. They've foreshadowed Cawl really wanting to recreate the Traitor legions (and their Primarchs) and Guilliman's lack of trust Cawl won't do it even against his wishes enough to more than hint they're going to bring them all and their 30K units and fluff into 40K to sell more models. Whether the "new" Traitor Primarchs turn Traitor again is anybody's guess - and I wouldn't be shocked to see some sort of fence straddling so - for example - Alpha Legion Players can use Alpharius and/or Omegon in either Chaos or Loyalist Alpha Legion Space Marine lists. I don't expect the Loyalists to turn, but it wouldn't shock me to see Cawl regrow Corax for example, and have the current one finally succumb to the corruption of the warp he's been fighting. Well it might shock me a little. There have been a lot of examples of players wanting to play their pre-fall CSM as Loyalist - its pretty much why 30K was created. Very few examples of people turning their (canon/official) Loyalists chaos - its usually a their own chapter falling for their own reasons thing like the Tyrant of Badab.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

Even More Better replacements for all their losses (and a portable way to make more, if they lower their standards), rather undermines their losses, but that actually may have been the point.

That's usually the point. And was certainly my point questioning why people think there's more hope today than yesterday. Every time they advance the story, the only thing that changes are the details, not the balance sheet. Sure the Imperium has a Primarch now. But the Daemon Primarchs are now more interested in coming out to play than they were before. They have Space Marine 2.0's now. But the Cadia gate has fallen, and Chaos isn't bottled up in the Eye anymore. Plus, who really believes Chaos isn't going to get 2.0's as well as soon as the 8th edition Beta Test is over?

The designers will continuously balance that tipping point - they want neither an absence or abundance of hope. Ever watch a thriller/action movie? Take the movie Speed. They'll write an emotional up and down sine wave narrative until the cows come home, or they need to reboot the game Sigmar style. They're not reinventing the wheel, or changing the sum total of hope. They're just flicking it back and forth over the center line they chose for dramatic tension.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I was on board until primaris marines. It would have been neat to see new-wave primarchs. Do away with the old ones, and have essentially heresy volume 2.

James Swallow wrote a book featuring a "new wave Primarch" and the fans gak blood over it. Replacement Primarch would be more unpopular with the internet mob than Primaris are.

Rather than new primarchs id rather see more focus (and kits) for all the big characters for the main chapters. and lore wise more of them getting their gak together to deal with problems.

IE new lysander (maybe Pedro), a named character for the iron hands, a named white scars character.. etc.

so basically a line for everyone that is somewhere between a captain and a primarch doing cool space marine stuff.

also the same for chaos too.

I hope they hold off Lysander a bit until we get a primaris terminator. given any new versions of old chars will be primarisized

If some of the people in this topic actually read some of the new BL fiction they couldn't be complaining. Some of the best stuff is in the post Cadia universe.

It sounds like many people got their opinions from 1d4chan lol

 Ishagu wrote:
If some of the people in this topic actually read some of the new BL fiction they couldn't be complaining. Some of the best stuff is in the post Cadia universe.

It sounds like many people got their opinions from 1d4chan lol

If people restricted themselves to things they actually knew, then Dakka would be a very quiet place.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
If some of the people in this topic actually read some of the new BL fiction they couldn't be complaining. Some of the best stuff is in the post Cadia universe.

It sounds like many people got their opinions from 1d4chan lol

If people restricted themselves to things they actually knew, then Dakka would be a very quiet place.

and people would be required to admit their ignorance which seems unlikely to happen given the number of statements made with the certainty of authority that's just out and out wrong

 Sim-Life wrote:
I don't think the lore is any lighter. Guilliman is stuck in an endless game of whack-a-mole, Chaos is stronger than ever and most of the xenos races are still doing what they've veen doing.

Except Necrons, who went from omnicidal alien god-machines on the verge of waking, to... a bunch of grumpy robot boys who want everyone to get off their lawn.

RevlidRas wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
I don't think the lore is any lighter. Guilliman is stuck in an endless game of whack-a-mole, Chaos is stronger than ever and most of the xenos races are still doing what they've veen doing.

Except Necrons, who went from omnicidal alien god-machines on the verge of waking, to... a bunch of grumpy robot boys who want everyone to get off their lawn.

Are you saying that omnicidal alien god-machines can't be grumpy after finding a bunch of upstarts and space elves on their lawn after a long nap?

Part of the problem with the narrative is that it was never really intended as a narrative. It's a table top battle game, not a series of novels. Originally Rogue Trader was more of an RPG that then morphed into a skirmish game. The game is not supposed to be concerned with galaxy spanning wars. It's a setting that establishs the general scope of the world and then you enter it with "your guys". You're playing out an Eldar raid on an Imperial tech bunker defended by the AM. You're a Space Marine task force trying to clean out a pocket of Tyranids after an invasion was beaten off. You're a band of Orks and a band of Chaos Space Marines both descending on a mysterious signal eminating from an alien looking object that you want to seize. What's going on on the other side of the galaxy is basically irrelevant to your little skirmish. The named characters were introduced to a) sell models, b) mix the game up a bit and add some extra flavour, and c) inspire you to make your own, write your own stories.

The whole narrative thing has only come along more recently as a way to sell books. The old setting was fine. Although humanity was staring down the barrel of disaster, it was obvious that disaster was going to take a long time (1000 years or more) to be realised. Or was it? The setting had enough flexibility in it to allow for the possibility that your heroic chapter master would lead a revival that might push back the green tide. Where GW went wrong was to focus too much on the big picture and not on heroic characters and individual stories. They had this same problem with WHFB. They could have kept the game fresh (and continued to sell new models and books) by expanding the range of minor heroes. You can even knock off more famous characters like Marneus, stick him in a dreadnought, do a story around the rivalry to replace him, but without having to completely change the background setting.

A setting for a Series of novels, and a setting for a table top game do not have to be that different from a whole.

Its really only just GW poorly managing there setting that causes issues, Its a galexy. You can have massive world wide events, That change little to nothing for the setting as a whole.
But the setting moves on, this is how we get new units and changes as we go. And new things popping up like the Tau.

Slowly changing it over the years in different ways, GW is not super unique in this. But i do feel they are the company that has lean the most on there older stuff.
But things like the primarchs coming back, big news for the inner Parts of the imperium. But It would probably be 10 years before news could even spread around the imperium.

Really a sitting is little more than a place to tell story in, and a setting moves forward just like anything with a story. Even if you go backwards, its still progressing the setting in some way.
Knowing the setting is even more importent for those creating it, than it is for those following on. And i think GW As a company has just not manage it well D;

I think people simply don't like change.

Yes, it used to be a setting with no real narrative progression. Things have progress and it now has a narrative that is pushing models and a story arc spread across multiple books that progress the story.

Some people don't like the post Cadia narrative. They are missing out on some of the very best 40k fiction: Devastation of Baal, Spears of the Emperor, Dark Imperium 1 & 2, Lords of Silence, etc are incredible stories for the setting. The Primaris also introduce and additional layer of drama, conflict and mistrust within the setting which makes for very good character drama. It's not lighter - to accuse it of that is to show ignorance and lack of knowledge on the matter.

There is no reason to dislike it because you can simply ignore it. There are no models which have lost rules, there are no reason why you can't set your games in m38 if you so desired. It's clear that GW is doing the right thing - look at their financial growth and engagement in the hobby in record numbers.

Don't fall into the trap of being a grumpy, old man who can't accept changes lol

bouncingboredom wrote:

The whole narrative thing has only come along more recently as a way to sell books.

How do you define 'recently'? Big narrative events happening in 40k's "present" were a thing when I started playing back in 2000.

 Ishagu wrote:
I think people simply don't like change.

Yes, it used to be a setting with no real narrative progression. Things have progress and it now has a narrative that is pushing models and a story arc spread across multiple books that progress the story.

Some people don't like the post Cadia narrative. They are missing out on some of the very best 40k fiction: Devastation of Baal, Spears of the Emperor, Dark Imperium 1 & 2, Lords of Silence, etc are incredible stories for the setting. The Primaris also introduce and additional layer of drama, conflict and mistrust within the setting which makes for very good character drama. It's not lighter - to accuse it of that is to show ignorance and lack of knowledge on the matter.

There is no reason to dislike it because you can simply ignore it. There are no models which have lost rules, there are no reason why you can't set your games in m38 if you so desired. It's clear that GW is doing the right thing - look at their financial growth and engagement in the hobby in record numbers.

Don't fall into the trap of being a grumpy, old man who can't accept changes lol

I like change in settings, most of the settings I deal with in games change. I just think GW kinda meh at it, things like the primarchs could have been more interesting but I do not think as a whole they have been done particularly well. And some of it has been rather tragic. Some of it was good, and some of it was ok but still introduced things into the setting I dislike.
Some of that is my interests being different, but it’s also that I am interested in the setting and I am finding it so dull as of late.
Also I am a narrative player, ignoring the narrative tends to just leave me ignoring the entirety of 40k.