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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/11 12:37:10
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel
Douglasville, GA
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To be fair, you can already get Gretchin with 5++ and 6+++, if you bring a KFF and Painboy along. But my main argument is: "would Gretchin be TOO powerful with Kultur and Stratagems", and honestly? Probably not. Snakebitez Gretchin will still get massacred by anti-infantry (even if they survive, the Morale phase will take the rest). Mek Gunz will be better, but they're still 3" movement, relatively large units with Heavy Weapons, which will severely limit their utility in any game with decent terrain. I seriously doubt it would even come close to the sorts of lists dominating the competitive scene.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/11 12:50:43
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Yellin' Yoof
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I have a Mekboy Workshop. Can Mekgunz be buffed? They have the 'Vehicle' keyword. What about setting up Mekgunz around that, with a Big Mek with KFF protecting and repairing them? Mekgunz can be repaired, right?
I almost want to post my collection and see what people do with it (expecting the majority to be "you dun goofed, asshat!")
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/11 12:56:18
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel
Douglasville, GA
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The problem with the Mek Shop is that you're giving up a turn of shooting to get a relatively minor buff. So while you *could* buff a Mek Gun, you're better off just shooting.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/11 12:58:06
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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General Malarky wrote:I have a Mekboy Workshop. Can Mekgunz be buffed? They have the 'Vehicle' keyword. What about setting up Mekgunz around that, with a Big Mek with KFF protecting and repairing them? Mekgunz can be repaired, right?
I almost want to post my collection and see what people do with it (expecting the majority to be "you dun goofed, asshat!")
postign availabel units is best as it means people can advise on how to mix em and maybe make suggestions on next models to add if you are open to adding to the collections. If you are a long term player there are no "you done goofed up" models as they may not fit or be great this edition, but might be better in later editions. I have several killa kans and deffdreads from the kan wall days in 5th edition. do not regret buying them to use but they have been collecting dust beyond the occational fluff game since then... but one day they might be good again .
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/11 12:58:07
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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General Malarky wrote:I have a Mekboy Workshop. Can Mekgunz be buffed? They have the 'Vehicle' keyword. What about setting up Mekgunz around that, with a Big Mek with KFF protecting and repairing them? Mekgunz can be repaired, right?
I almost want to post my collection and see what people do with it (expecting the majority to be "you dun goofed, asshat!")
Please do! It'd be great to know what you're working with outside the one 2k list.
The Mekboy Workshop sadly is pretty much worth it for nothing in the game. The fact that it requires you to give up basically your whole turn to gain a benefit in the next turn, in a game that's as deadly as 40k means that whatever you buff will just get targeted. I've only ever seen people talking about it with something like a weird forgeworld vehicle full of flamers, where you can hide it for a turn then get double shots with the flamers? But it's pretty much not a thing that you can really make use of.
You can repair Mek Gunz if you want to, and they definitely don't mind a KFF if you're going for a gunline element. Though TBF they're what, T5 with 5 wounds for 31pts? They kind of don't need the help, they're really inefficient to shoot at with almost anything. I have seen people running a Shokk Attack Gun mek next to them but I don't know if the repair action requires you to give up your turn.
Meks' ability to repair is kind of secondary to their real purpose, which is the Kustom Force Field and the Shokk Attack Gun. Both of those are the reason you take Big Meks.With all our vehicles mostly sitting at a 4+ save, if you can get your vehicles under a 5++ save bubble, you've effectively created a situation where any gun with AP greater than -1 is wasting that stat - there's nothing in your army that has a save that can be lowered by more than 1. Automatically Appended Next Post: G00fySmiley wrote: General Malarky wrote:I have a Mekboy Workshop. Can Mekgunz be buffed? They have the 'Vehicle' keyword. What about setting up Mekgunz around that, with a Big Mek with KFF protecting and repairing them? Mekgunz can be repaired, right?
I almost want to post my collection and see what people do with it (expecting the majority to be "you dun goofed, asshat!")
postign availabel units is best as it means people can advise on how to mix em and maybe make suggestions on next models to add if you are open to adding to the collections. If you are a long term player there are no "you done goofed up" models as they may not fit or be great this edition, but might be better in later editions. I have several killa kans and deffdreads from the kan wall days in 5th edition. do not regret buying them to use but they have been collecting dust beyond the occational fluff game since then... but one day they might be good again .
Ah, the halycon days of the dred mob... I have so many things converted to be deff dreads because there's just so much potential to orkify other factions' medium mechs. One day medium walkers will once again be able to do their thing, firing a couple of heavy weapons while walking across the field and projecting some melee threat later in the game. Deep striking 3 dreads is not such a terrible idea in the current codex, but they don't really do anything that either a unit of megnobz or a single gorkanaut doesn't do better.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/11 13:01:10
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/11 13:04:07
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Stubborn White Lion
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As has been mentioned try not to take dismissive snark on the internet too seriously. Forum 40k tends to focus very much on being as efficient with your list as possible and frankly people can get very nasty about those who do not do so at times. Their problem not yours.
That said there's been some helpful suggestions from Ork players on this thread too and I'd suggest that if possible you give some idea of what sort of armies it is that you are facing for further advice on what you might like to include.
It may be a case of you are playing against highly efficient lists and unfortunately there might not be a solution to that outside of buying more models or playing other people/asking those you do play if they can tone things down.
You've no reason to feel dumb about any of this and hope you can stop beating yourself up, it sounds like you have bought a cool army that you like and that reflects your idea of what an Ork army looks like, it's an unfortunate side affect of GW games that a lot of money often is invested before you get a chance to see how things actually play and many, many people have been there before you.
All is not lost though! There's plenty of folk around who'll happily help you out but a bit more info might be needed to continue to do so.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/11 13:04:30
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/11 15:27:48
Subject: Re:Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought
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I will look at it from an opponent's side of things that takes-on an Ork player friend:
- The always hits on a 6 is a underestimated superpower. Anything that involves lots of dice makes this felt all the more "Everything counts in large amounts.".
-Tankbustas in a Battlewagon is truly irritating, those guys have many times erased a vehicle / dreadnaught and the odd elite unit in a pinch. I found them fairly effective as anti-aircraft as well. I think he also stuffs another unit with them in case they get popped and added dakka.
- The bare minimum of 3 blobs of 30 is a must, 4 make it very tough to deal with.
- I find most of the squads of boyz with shootas are the way to go, most melee seems to be overkill. I find the shoota guys seems to get the odd opportunity fire that is a bucket full of dice with 6's "extra" attacks.
- The kustom force field is needed for some resiliency of units using the BigMech
- The BossNob is a must to be able to advance and charge.
- Due to morale, you usually want these characters between two blobs of boyz close enough so they benefit from their numbers in a unit or nearby... it is hard to shift these guys.
- Da Jump is a staple, it forces me to spread out my army to prevent any backyard visitors, what is worth considering is bringing in your infiltrators after a successful jump to have the increased morale.
The various "Kultures" selection I think depends on the armies that give you the most trouble..
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A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/11 16:23:05
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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flandarz wrote:As an aside, I understand that the rule is thematic, but I don't really care for it myself. Were Gretchin units so powerful that you had to deny them access to Kultur and Stratagems? The most powerful combo I could come up with would be a Deathskullz Traktor Gun that gets to reroll wound, and damage. Pretty good, but certainly not broken.
Im sorry dude but 31 points for a d3 shot d6 weapon with AP -(3 or 4 can't remember) is already not balanced. ESP when it has a special rule that allows 6's to hit to generate additional hits...Come on man. A marine with a lascannon costs more than that. It's a joke of balance.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/11 16:35:03
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel
Douglasville, GA
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I dunno. On average, it's gonna get 2 shots and 1 hit. Against T8 targets, you got like a 40% chance to Wound. AP is high, but the things it wants to hit will probably have Invuln, so let's say another 66% to get through Saves. Then, average damage will be 3.5. Mathing it out, your average damage per turn on a single Mek Gun is gonna be around 1 Damage. This on top of the fact that it has 3" movement, meaning it's easy to stay out of LOS on many maps, and even if it moves into LOS, it's taking a -1 to hit penalty.
I'm not saying Mek Gunz are bad. Im just refuting the assertion that they're some kind of broken unit. You have to take more than "ideal situation" into account with units. I mean, Flash Gitz are 35 pts for 3 shots, S6, AP-2, and 2 Damage. They get Kultur and can use Stratagems. They can ride in a vehicle and fire with Open Topped, or be Da Jumped to where they need to be. Are Flash Gitz unbalanced? Cuz, from what I've seen, practically no one bothers taking them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/11 16:53:53
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Dakka Veteran
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flandarz wrote:I dunno. On average, it's gonna get 2 shots and 1 hit. Against T8 targets, you got like a 40% chance to Wound. AP is high, but the things it wants to hit will probably have Invuln, so let's say another 66% to get through Saves. Then, average damage will be 3.5. Mathing it out, your average damage per turn on a single Mek Gun is gonna be around 1 Damage. This on top of the fact that it has 3" movement, meaning it's easy to stay out of LOS on many maps, and even if it moves into LOS, it's taking a -1 to hit penalty.
I'm not saying Mek Gunz are bad. Im just refuting the assertion that they're some kind of broken unit. You have to take more than "ideal situation" into account with units. I mean, Flash Gitz are 35 pts for 3 shots, S6, AP-2, and 2 Damage. They get Kultur and can use Stratagems. They can ride in a vehicle and fire with Open Topped, or be Da Jumped to where they need to be. Are Flash Gitz unbalanced? Cuz, from what I've seen, practically no one bothers taking them.
I ran the numbers for 3 traktor kannons shooting at a knight. Just for laughs I factored in rolling 3 shots on each for 9 total. and automatically wounding ( which when trying to wound T 8+ is not easy, i fail wound rolls on 2d6 all the time). I also factored in a T8 3+ 5++ knight without adjusting it to the 4++. AVERAGE DAMAGE = 12.25 expected. There was a 5.9% chance to 1 shot it. This is with max shots and auto wounding as well. It is far from OP. This average damage drops to 8.17 if you use 3d3 shots vs 9. This is still automatically wounding.
It goes back to the fact that players remember the times that severe instances happen against them. and not the times that whiffs occur.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/11 16:55:58
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/11 17:08:12
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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flandarz wrote:I dunno. On average, it's gonna get 2 shots and 1 hit. Against T8 targets, you got like a 40% chance to Wound. AP is high, but the things it wants to hit will probably have Invuln, so let's say another 66% to get through Saves. Then, average damage will be 3.5. Mathing it out, your average damage per turn on a single Mek Gun is gonna be around 1 Damage. This on top of the fact that it has 3" movement, meaning it's easy to stay out of LOS on many maps, and even if it moves into LOS, it's taking a -1 to hit penalty.
I'm not saying Mek Gunz are bad. Im just refuting the assertion that they're some kind of broken unit. You have to take more than "ideal situation" into account with units. I mean, Flash Gitz are 35 pts for 3 shots, S6, AP-2, and 2 Damage. They get Kultur and can use Stratagems. They can ride in a vehicle and fire with Open Topped, or be Da Jumped to where they need to be. Are Flash Gitz unbalanced? Cuz, from what I've seen, practically no one bothers taking them.
Nah they are broken good (smashas). Way more average damage than comparable units and enough range to never need to move - with bonkers potential damage. Not to mention the resilience you get on top of it. Flash gits suck for the same reason hell blasters suck - expensive 2 wound models without invo saves die in droves to basically every not basic weapon in your opponents arsenal. Also - lottas are just better aren't they?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mhalko1 wrote: flandarz wrote:I dunno. On average, it's gonna get 2 shots and 1 hit. Against T8 targets, you got like a 40% chance to Wound. AP is high, but the things it wants to hit will probably have Invuln, so let's say another 66% to get through Saves. Then, average damage will be 3.5. Mathing it out, your average damage per turn on a single Mek Gun is gonna be around 1 Damage. This on top of the fact that it has 3" movement, meaning it's easy to stay out of LOS on many maps, and even if it moves into LOS, it's taking a -1 to hit penalty.
I'm not saying Mek Gunz are bad. Im just refuting the assertion that they're some kind of broken unit. You have to take more than "ideal situation" into account with units. I mean, Flash Gitz are 35 pts for 3 shots, S6, AP-2, and 2 Damage. They get Kultur and can use Stratagems. They can ride in a vehicle and fire with Open Topped, or be Da Jumped to where they need to be. Are Flash Gitz unbalanced? Cuz, from what I've seen, practically no one bothers taking them.
I ran the numbers for 3 traktor kannons shooting at a knight. Just for laughs I factored in rolling 3 shots on each for 9 total. and automatically wounding ( which when trying to wound T 8+ is not easy, i fail wound rolls on 2d6 all the time). I also factored in a T8 3+ 5++ knight without adjusting it to the 4++. AVERAGE DAMAGE = 12.25 expected. There was a 5.9% chance to 1 shot it. This is with max shots and auto wounding as well. It is far from OP. This average damage drops to 8.17 if you use 3d3 shots vs 9. This is still automatically wounding.
It goes back to the fact that players remember the times that severe instances happen against them. and not the times that whiffs occur.
You do realize the tractor cannons are an AA weapon. They auto hit fly. Not +1 to hit fly. AUTO HIT FLY. So basically you are always shooting it at something that flies. Want to kill knights. Bring SAG. Or even KMK or smasha. Knights die real fast when you are dropping high rate of fire D6 damage on them. I certainly remember the times my lascannon hits on a 6 and doesn't generate additional hits. I remember those times.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/11 17:13:04
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/11 17:12:34
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Dakka Veteran
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Xenomancers wrote: flandarz wrote:I dunno. On average, it's gonna get 2 shots and 1 hit. Against T8 targets, you got like a 40% chance to Wound. AP is high, but the things it wants to hit will probably have Invuln, so let's say another 66% to get through Saves. Then, average damage will be 3.5. Mathing it out, your average damage per turn on a single Mek Gun is gonna be around 1 Damage. This on top of the fact that it has 3" movement, meaning it's easy to stay out of LOS on many maps, and even if it moves into LOS, it's taking a -1 to hit penalty.
I'm not saying Mek Gunz are bad. Im just refuting the assertion that they're some kind of broken unit. You have to take more than "ideal situation" into account with units. I mean, Flash Gitz are 35 pts for 3 shots, S6, AP-2, and 2 Damage. They get Kultur and can use Stratagems. They can ride in a vehicle and fire with Open Topped, or be Da Jumped to where they need to be. Are Flash Gitz unbalanced? Cuz, from what I've seen, practically no one bothers taking them.
Nah they are broken good (smashas). Way more average damage than comparable units and enough range to never need to move - with bonkers potential damage. Not to mention the resilience you get on top of it. Flash gits suck for the same reason hell blasters suck - expensive 2 wound models without invo saves die in droves to basically every not basic weapon in your opponents arsenal. Also - lottas are just better aren't they?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mhalko1 wrote: flandarz wrote:I dunno. On average, it's gonna get 2 shots and 1 hit. Against T8 targets, you got like a 40% chance to Wound. AP is high, but the things it wants to hit will probably have Invuln, so let's say another 66% to get through Saves. Then, average damage will be 3.5. Mathing it out, your average damage per turn on a single Mek Gun is gonna be around 1 Damage. This on top of the fact that it has 3" movement, meaning it's easy to stay out of LOS on many maps, and even if it moves into LOS, it's taking a -1 to hit penalty.
I'm not saying Mek Gunz are bad. Im just refuting the assertion that they're some kind of broken unit. You have to take more than "ideal situation" into account with units. I mean, Flash Gitz are 35 pts for 3 shots, S6, AP-2, and 2 Damage. They get Kultur and can use Stratagems. They can ride in a vehicle and fire with Open Topped, or be Da Jumped to where they need to be. Are Flash Gitz unbalanced? Cuz, from what I've seen, practically no one bothers taking them.
I ran the numbers for 3 traktor kannons shooting at a knight. Just for laughs I factored in rolling 3 shots on each for 9 total. and automatically wounding ( which when trying to wound T 8+ is not easy, i fail wound rolls on 2d6 all the time). I also factored in a T8 3+ 5++ knight without adjusting it to the 4++. AVERAGE DAMAGE = 12.25 expected. There was a 5.9% chance to 1 shot it. This is with max shots and auto wounding as well. It is far from OP. This average damage drops to 8.17 if you use 3d3 shots vs 9. This is still automatically wounding.
It goes back to the fact that players remember the times that severe instances happen against them. and not the times that whiffs occur.
You do realize the tractor cannons are an AA weapon. They auto hit fly. Not +1 to hit fly. AUTO HIT FLY. So basically you are always shooting it at something that flies. Want to kill knights. Bring SAG. Or even KMK or smasha. Knights die real fast when you are dropping hi rate of fire D6 damage on them.
I apologize. Meant smashas. But did you have a target in mind for me to run numbers against? at AP-2 they still aren't OP. plus they cost more than smashas.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/11 17:15:34
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/11 17:15:14
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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Well a smasha is 31 points or something super low. 9 of them costs less than a knight does and it's basically the worst target for them. They really want to shoot t7 or less.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/11 17:16:40
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Dakka Veteran
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Xenomancers wrote:Well a smasha is 31 points or something super low. 9 of them costs less than a knight does and it's basically the worst target for them. They really want to shoot t7 or less.
Plus DDD is wasted on a unit that auto hits.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/11 17:24:10
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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Xenomancers wrote:Well a smasha is 31 points or something super low. 9 of them costs less than a knight does and it's basically the worst target for them. They really want to shoot t7 or less.
eh... smashas really want T6 or less preferably T5
average 2 shots hitting with 1 then 50% to get 1 wounding hit on a T7 before save. it is ap-4, but aggainst elite units there will often be an inv save to get through.
I do agree they are worth taking sometimes, but they are not even the best mek gun and are not in many tournament lists for a reason. It is to random... random number of shots, random 2d6 to wound, it can do amazing or it can be ziltch pretty swingy.
it is liek the SAGbg mek. in theory he is great, but as somebody who runs him it is always a gamble. I have had him blow up knights and I have had him wiff the entire game. d6 shots on random 2d6 str w/ BS5 is not reliable.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/11 17:29:36
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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mhalko1 wrote: Xenomancers wrote:Well a smasha is 31 points or something super low. 9 of them costs less than a knight does and it's basically the worst target for them. They really want to shoot t7 or less.
Plus DDD is wasted on a unit that auto hits.
It still rolls to hit against non fliers so it's not wasted unless it's auto hitting which will do way more damage on average - not to mention ignores modifiers to hit. Ork artillery is better just about every else's which is nonsense. Because they have poor BS they overload their numbers of shots and AP and damage statistics.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/11 17:31:17
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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Xenomancers wrote:
You do realize the tractor cannons are an AA weapon. They auto hit fly. Not +1 to hit fly. AUTO HIT FLY. So basically you are always shooting it at something that flies. Want to kill knights. Bring SAG. Or even KMK or smasha. Knights die real fast when you are dropping high rate of fire D6 damage on them. I certainly remember the times my lascannon hits on a 6 and doesn't generate additional hits. I remember those times.
Tractor cannons auto hit everything.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/11 17:37:21
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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G00fySmiley wrote: Xenomancers wrote:Well a smasha is 31 points or something super low. 9 of them costs less than a knight does and it's basically the worst target for them. They really want to shoot t7 or less.
eh... smashas really want T6 or less preferably T5
average 2 shots hitting with 1 then 50% to get 1 wounding hit on a T7 before save. it is ap-4, but aggainst elite units there will often be an inv save to get through.
I do agree they are worth taking sometimes, but they are not even the best mek gun and are not in many tournament lists for a reason. It is to random... random number of shots, random 2d6 to wound, it can do amazing or it can be ziltch pretty swingy.
it is liek the SAGbg mek. in theory he is great, but as somebody who runs him it is always a gamble. I have had him blow up knights and I have had him wiff the entire game. d6 shots on random 2d6 str w/ BS5 is not reliable.
Is a doomsday arc reliable? Does that stop it from being auto include? I've seen more than once it single handedly winning the game for about 60 points. Really though - most of the time it gets a single d6 damage through on a tank which is about on par with what a unit with 3 heavies does. Automatically Appended Next Post: p5freak wrote: Xenomancers wrote:
You do realize the tractor cannons are an AA weapon. They auto hit fly. Not +1 to hit fly. AUTO HIT FLY. So basically you are always shooting it at something that flies. Want to kill knights. Bring SAG. Or even KMK or smasha. Knights die real fast when you are dropping high rate of fire D6 damage on them. I certainly remember the times my lascannon hits on a 6 and doesn't generate additional hits. I remember those times.
Tractor cannons auto hit everything.
You sure? My opponent is gimping himself if that is the case.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/11 17:38:12
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/11 17:40:25
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel
Douglasville, GA
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I mean, the average damage is 1 per turn. Is that "way more" than comparable units? Depends on the target, I suppose. A single Flash Git, benefiting from the Freebooter Kultur, is gonna have an average of around 2 damage against its prefered targets. On the other hand, a Smasha shooting at a horde of IG is gonna be lucky to remove 1 model a turn. Sure it has range, but unless you're playing on an empty board, it still has to deal with LOS. It also has a large footprint for its cost. What, like 2 or 3 Smashas take up the same board space as a single Castellan?
Again, ain't saying they're bad. They're good. But broken? Nah. There's plenty of counter play to them. I think you may be conflating "not terrible" with "broken". Point cost to damage potential *is* solid (though average damage is, again, pretty low. 1 damage per turn for 35 pts ain't exactly efficient). Pretty tough too (though I doubt many people are gonna have issues taking out T5 with 5W and a 4+ Save). Can't argue there. There are two big issues with Mek Gunz. 1) they have a small pool of targets that they're gonna be useful against. Against a horde list, they'll never make their points back. Shorter vehicles will be able to hide behind terrain as well. If your opponent isn't bringing tall walkers, you're gonna end up wasting its potential. 2) they don't benefit from anything except DDD. No "shoot again". No +1 to hit from Freebooters. No Grot Shields. And, because they're so large, getting more than 1 into cover is gonna be difficult AND means your other units are gonna be outside of Cover. At the end of the day, I believe they're incredibly easy to avoid on any map that has an appropriate amount of terrain. Good damage potential doesn't mean much if you have no targets, or only 1W Infantry.
I brought up Gitz because they're essentially the same point cost for a similar weapon profile. Except they also get to do the thing Gunz can't. Move. Kultur use. Stratagem use. Hell, they even get a chance to shoot again without a Stratagem. I dunno if I'd say Lootas are better, because that will depend on the mission and the board. In a city-scape, with lots of tall buildings, it'll probably be better to have a more mobile Flash Git unit than a stationary Loota Mob.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/11 17:42:21
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/11 17:48:42
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Dakka Veteran
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A unit of traktor kannons (I use 3 for most tests) averages 2.63 damage to a landraider. Against a T7 3+ sv carnifex it averages 4.67 damage. Against a unit with T6 and 4+ it averages 5.83 damage. Mathematically they aren't as great as they seem.
I expect Xeno has had some real bad games against some player with bomb dice rolls.
Yes this bonus is higher against units with fly because of rolling 2d6 for damage and taking the highest but not everyone encounters flyer lists and will justify the cost over smashas.
Smashas themselves aren't even that great. They are cheap but again the randomness really hurts.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/11 17:52:01
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/11 18:38:34
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Nasty Nob
Crescent City Fl..
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Traktor Kannons just aren't very good I can't see a reason to ever use more than 2 in a list. I took all mine apart to build more smasha guns last year I'm up to 6 of those now. Still the KMK is better than it was in the Index with the mighty D6 damage it puts out now. The traktor Kannon is unimpressive.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/11 20:01:47
The rewards of tolerance are treachery and betrayal.
Remember kids, Games Workshop needs you more than you need them. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/11 19:42:25
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Dakka Veteran
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warhead01 wrote:Traktor Kannons just aren't very good I can't see a reason to ever use more than 2 in a list. I took all mine apart to build more smasha guns last year I'm up to 6 of those not. Still the KMK is better than it was in the Index with the mighty D6 damage it puts out now. The traktor Kannon is unimpressive.
My brother tends to play 3 BA storm raven lists. Yeah I take them for sure if I'm playing him. His daemons have Flying DPs, LoCs and Belakor. At least 1 flyrant in his nids. But overall yeah smashas can do the same job but a bit better. havent tried the KMK yet. [
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/11 19:45:35
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/11 20:11:36
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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mhalko1 wrote:A unit of traktor kannons (I use 3 for most tests) averages 2.63 damage to a landraider. Against a T7 3+ sv carnifex it averages 4.67 damage. Against a unit with T6 and 4+ it averages 5.83 damage. Mathematically they aren't as great as they seem.
I expect Xeno has had some real bad games against some player with bomb dice rolls.
Yes this bonus is higher against units with fly because of rolling 2d6 for damage and taking the highest but not everyone encounters flyer lists and will justify the cost over smashas.
Smashas themselves aren't even that great. They are cheap but again the randomness really hurts.
Are we talking about smash guns or tractor cannons? It is the smasha that is redic. Tractors I could care less about - it's still way better than a lascannon though. Also you can not discount bomb dice rolls. If you can do a potential of 18(36) damage compared to 6 - but average about the same damage. It is clear what the better choice is. ESP when it costs dramatically less and is dramatically more durable.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/11 20:12:12
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/11 20:42:50
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel
Douglasville, GA
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I honestly don't know that much about a lascannon, so I can only tell you what my own experiences with Smashas are. In the match-ups that I've brought them in, they've done well in every case except one. I was playing against Admech on a city map, and half my Smashas never got to shoot, while the other half barely managed to take down a single Kastellan. This is why I say that damage potential isn't everything. Mek Gunz are slow and bulky. With 3" of movement on an (approximately) 4" base, you can't even get over any obstacles. Played on a map with an appropriate amount of terrain, they'll be basically stuck. Any map that has LOS blocking terrain renders them next to useless. Your Marine with a Lascannon can enter buildings, go into a vehicle, and basically just move as it pleases. If it doesn't have LOS, it can get LOS. And this is quite aside from the fact that d3 shots at 4BS is only getting a single hit (on average), which becomes less and less likely to actually cause damage as Toughness and Saves improve. Sure, a single Mek Gun could potentially deal 18 Wounds. But, realistically, it's gonna deal FAR less. As I demonstrated above, average Wounds per Turn over a 5 Turn game, for a single Mek Gun, is going to be far closer to 1.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/11 20:44:31
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/11 20:53:15
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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flandarz wrote:I honestly don't know that much about a lascannon, so I can only tell you what my own experiences with Smashas are. In the match-ups that I've brought them in, they've done well in every case except one. I was playing against Admech on a city map, and half my Smashas never got to shoot, while the other half barely managed to take down a single Kastellan. This is why I say that damage potential isn't everything. Mek Gunz are slow and bulky. With 3" of movement on an (approximately) 4" base, you can't even get over any obstacles. Played on a map with an appropriate amount of terrain, they'll be basically stuck. Any map that has LOS blocking terrain renders them next to useless. Your Marine with a Lascannon can enter buildings, go into a vehicle, and basically just move as it pleases. If it doesn't have LOS, it can get LOS. And this is quite aside from the fact that d3 shots at 4BS is only getting a single hit (on average), which becomes less and less likely to actually cause damage as Toughness and Saves improve. Sure, a single Mek Gun could potentially deal 18 Wounds. But, realistically, it's gonna deal FAR less. As I demonstrated above, average Wounds per Turn over a 5 Turn game, for a single Mek Gun, is going to be far closer to 1.
Averaging a single hit with a d6 damage weapon is amazing (it's actually a little better because 6's generate additional hit chances.) However - compare that to a lascannon which on a 1 W platform with bs 3+costs 13+25 = 38 points. 7 points more and averages 2/3 of a hit with a weaker AP-3 d6 damage profile but better str(not by much because the smash gun is better at wounding weaker things). I think a Smasha gun has t5 with 5 wounds and a 4+ save. So roughly 5 times more resilient. The comparison is bonkers. If a smasha gun is really worth 31 points. A marine with a LC should be 15/16 points.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/11 21:09:12
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel
Douglasville, GA
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Well, here's the characteristics of a Smasha: 3" Move, BS4+, WS5+, S2, T5, W6, A2, L6, Sv 4+. The gun itself is 48", d3 shots, S*, AP-4, Dd6, wounds on a 2d6 roll equal to or greater than the target. D3 shots averaged to 2 shots. BS4+ averages to 1 hit. 41.7% chance to get an 8 on a 2d6 roll averages to 0.42 hits. 5++ Save averages to 0.28 hits. Then d6 damage is an average of 3.5 damage. Divide that by the approximately 1 in 4 chance to actually get past Saves and you get 0.98 Damage, on average, per turn of shooting. If you include the 1 in 12 chance that a DDD extra attack will hit, it's probably pretty dang close to 1 Damage per Turn. Assuming you have LOS, because 3" movement isn't going to get you anywhere, and if you *do* move you've reduced your average damage per turn to 0.33.
I don't know what kind of statistics a Marine has, nor what sorts of advantages his Chapter and Stratagems can give him. Remember that Smashas get none of this. They're a stationary mortar with a giant sign that says "please shoot me". A 4+ Save and T5 is pretty easy for any army to deal with, especially against a target with as large a footprint as a Smasha. Your Marine can hide practically anywhere. A Smasha cannot. Just looking at numbers is a terrible way to gauge the effectiveness of a unit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/11 21:09:12
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Nasty Nob
Crescent City Fl..
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mhalko1 wrote: warhead01 wrote:Traktor Kannons just aren't very good I can't see a reason to ever use more than 2 in a list. I took all mine apart to build more smasha guns last year I'm up to 6 of those not. Still the KMK is better than it was in the Index with the mighty D6 damage it puts out now. The traktor Kannon is unimpressive.
My brother tends to play 3 BA storm raven lists. Yeah I take them for sure if I'm playing him. His daemons have Flying DPs, LoCs and Belakor. At least 1 flyrant in his nids. But overall yeah smashas can do the same job but a bit better. havent tried the KMK yet. [
If they're working for you then keep doing what your doing. lol.
I was mostly thinking about the comment ont he other page about having 9 in a list.
When I think about Orks I think GW thought that players would only field 3 or 6 and that players would not just pick "the best one" but use some of each. And there's nothing stopping any one from doing which ever way. I have one friend that I specifically build list for so that he has a good time and the fights aren't just one sided when Orks vs Marines could very well be. Super casual. in those lists I tend to just field 3 mek guns, 1 bubble chukkas a Smasha Gun and a KMK. Against my more competitive friend The sky is the limit as my goal is usually to table him because if I don't I have probably already lost.
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The rewards of tolerance are treachery and betrayal.
Remember kids, Games Workshop needs you more than you need them. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/12 02:06:03
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Yellin' Yoof
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Wow! this thread is taking off and I am kind of maybe learning a lot, here and there, from this thread.
Y'know what the problem with relying on psykers to move units across the field is? Dice. Fought IG today and lost turn 1 because I failed to Da Jump a unit of Skarboyz until turn 3, when the rest of my was had been easily mopped up by the gun line. Pfbthbfhtbfhtfhtb! *mimes a 'jerking off' motion*
Relying on (even with a buffed weirdboy and a reroll) dice kills the reliability of this tidbit of 'advice'. I stand firm in my position that having to bypass movement to make it to melee is horseGAK and I am excitedly worried about next edition; will they fix this or feth it further?
I will post my collection later. It is not much more than was listed in my 2000 point list (I think I have 2400 points total)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/06/12 02:16:26
Subject: Still struggling with Orks in 8th
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Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel
Douglasville, GA
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Did you make sure your Weirdboy was within 9" of the Skarboyz? Remember that you get a +1 to Psyker Tests as long as 10 Ork Models are close to you. With a full 30 model unit of Boyz (and Command Reroll) you should only be failing your Da Jump maybe once every 30 tries or so?
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