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 xttz wrote:

 Don Savik wrote:
Yea I'll have to see it in action because I just don't see the appeal for rules like this. Kill team having seperate rules makes sense because you don't need to play 40k to play kill team. If you're playing apocalypse you have a 40k army already.

Who playing a giant 6000 point battle wants it to be 'quick and easy'?

Me.

After 10 years of collecting I'm well past 20,000pts worth of Tyranids, along with several gargantuan creatures. But as a parent with a partner who works most weekends, the odds of getting a full free day to slog through all the minutiae needed for a regular 40k scale are remote.

I'd much rather play nu-Epic with all my existing toys in a usual evening.

This. A million times.

xttz wrote:Space marine faction focus
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/06/17/apocalypse-faction-focus-space-marinesgw-homepage-post-2/

Have we heard hints about how the new Repulser Executioner works before? Because it looks like it may well get the Leman Russ 'fire your main weapon twice if you don't move over half' rule in 40k proper:

Arriving just in time for Apocalypse, this new battle tank offers the Space Marines truly terrifying firepower. Both the heavy laser destroyer and the macro plasma incinerator boast superb stats to match their awesome names…
<APOC STAT BLOCK HAPPENS>
…and each can fire twice provided the Repulsor Executioner moves less than half of its full allowance. The only question is – which will you pick?

Smart solution to how to upgun the Repulser without just slapping even more, even bigger guns to it.

----------

solkan wrote:On the other hand, I still have my movement trays for my Chaos Demons from back when WHFB existed. I'm going to need a quota system to limit the number of WHFB jokes during Apocalypse games.

*high fives in daemonic*

 Togusa wrote:

 Malkyr wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Curious. Why? Common Space Marines, Heretical or Loyalist are trash teir units in the current edition of the game. They bring nothing, die to massed S3 fire.

Many of us still buy units because they look cool and we want to paint them. I want to replace my old Chaos marines with the incredibly cooler new models.

Apocalypse has never been about winning or a competitive meta, it is the most beer and pretzels of formats ever made.

Especially in the context of massed battles I am sure you will need at least 30 basic marines.

And just like everyone else who tells me this, experience has shown me better.

Every format is about WAAC. Apoc, Killteam, AT, 40K, Sigmar, Necromunda, Warcry. They're all going to be WAAC games because the majority of the player base is WAAC.

I respect your love of the models however. I too like the new sculpts a lot. I've got 40 of em myself, but even when I play "friendly" games with them. They just get shot off the table turn one, do nothing and make me very sad.

10,000 year old veterans touched by the dark gods indeed...

Just because players at your meta are all waac doesn't mean they are all waac everywhere. Funny that.

Looks interesting. I think actual army composition will probably determine how much I care to try it. Base rules soon nd good though. Lots of things 40k would like to see added. It’d be funny if people shifted to playing very small games of Apocalypse over 40k.

Leak for the money cost of the new kits, along with all the other preorders of the 29th of June:

https://external-preview.redd.it/MY1x0kXz0cY2WNHCG53HL4YmTmC-E_up8UU49uMWPCM.jpg?auto=webp&s=97ea78e093fb29d2e08a90e443a668e5f72a72fb

 Kirasu wrote:
Proper epic is probably never coming back due to the sheer size of the model range. This most likely is Epic without having to recast a thousand different models into tiny plastic sprues.

On the other hand, with GW's modern tech, they could cram all the models in most factions on just 1 - 2 sprues. Each faction could literally be one box of a few copies of the same sprue for a balanced force.

 Aaranis wrote:
Leak for the money cost of the new kits, along with all the other preorders of the 29th of June:

https://external-preview.redd.it/MY1x0kXz0cY2WNHCG53HL4YmTmC-E_up8UU49uMWPCM.jpg?auto=webp&s=97ea78e093fb29d2e08a90e443a668e5f72a72fb

Already posted a page or so back.

GW's just put up an index page for Apocalypse, we'll be getting a lot of preview articles yet: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/06/17/apocalypse-the-index/

 Don Savik wrote:
Yea I'll have to see it in action because I just don't see the appeal for rules like this. Kill team having seperate rules makes sense because you don't need to play 40k to play kill team. If you're playing apocalypse you have a 40k army already.

Who playing a giant 6000 point battle wants it to be 'quick and easy'?

I don't get it.

Maybe you want big battle that actually FEELS like big batle in 40k? 10k 40k game just doesn't give that feel. Instead it's just big mess. You don't get big battles by putting out tons of models with skirmish rules.

 Don Savik wrote:
Yea I'll have to see it in action because I just don't see the appeal for rules like this. Kill team having seperate rules makes sense because you don't need to play 40k to play kill team. If you're playing apocalypse you have a 40k army already.

Who playing a giant 6000 point battle wants it to be 'quick and easy'?

I don't get it.

Me? Like, I'd like to be scalable. I'd like to maximise the number of actual tactical movement and attack decisions I'm making and minimize the amount of time I have to spend just resolving those actions. Units acting more like single models in 40k makes sense in that respect.

Huh, this new Apocalypse looks like it could be the 40K I've been wanting for years.

Don't get me wrong, I like a complex wargame, but not at the scale 40K has been playing at for the last ten years.

This is also suggestive that victory won’t go to the player with the deepest pockets.

Consider the Warlord Titan. It’s a helluva cash sink. And a friend has one. Lovely kit.

But even in Apocalypse, it’s horrifically overpowered. Unless you’re expecting it, and have something to Hard Counter (Other Titans, Ordinatus etc), it’s damned near impossible to kill. And all the time you’re trying, it’s simply deleting high value targets each and every turn, and multiples thereof.

Even stuff like Knights and the Baneblade Chassis are daunting, unless you’ve an approximate unit to bother it/them.

Here? With Bolt Rifles have a 5/12 chance of doing damage? That’s very, very different. You’ll still be better off with a proper counter, of course you will. But it’s not longer a ‘oh, Ross (thats me, *waves*) has brought his Ordinatus and a Knight escort for it? Guess that flanks buggered, then’.

It’ll still be death by a thousand cuts, but that’s infinitely preferable to ‘there’s literally nothing I can do. What I had, he annihilated turn one, thanks to his unerring (genuinely, it’s a knack!) to seize the initiative.

Giant games of 40k always seems like a good idea, but they are never actually any fun. Because the game doesn't work well outside a pretty narrow size band. But, in order to sell more models, they players need to be able to put more models on the table, and there's only so big the table can get.

With the current scale of the models and the size of armies, this sounds like it will probably be a better version of 40k than 40k currently is. As it just accepts being abstract and bathtubbed instead of trying to be a skirmish ruleset with giant armies that make no sense in the scale of the game.

I am actually pleasently shocked that Sisters got a faction link

I've occasionally wondered why people didn't put their Space Marines and whatnot, back when Space Marines were on 25mm bases, on 60mm round bases and play Epic Armageddon. That game is awesome.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Here? With Bolt Rifles have a 5/12 chance of doing damage? That’s very, very different.

I sort of suspect you'll get to roll one d12 per 5 dudes tho.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
From a GW perspective, time is something that’s been a challenge.

Me, I effing LOVE big, massive games. But time is a sod. When you’ve got 12,000+ points a side, using pretty much the base 40k rules? There’s a lot to standing around doing not a lot. And most games I’ve played didn’t get beyond the third turn.

Streamlining the way this promises? Might actually get the full six or so turns in. Which shakes up what is good in Apocalypse, and importantly? What’s practical in Apocalypse.

Add in that damage is applied at the end of the round, rather than player turn? Suddenly, the big expensive Forgeworld Ming I bought, assembled and painted at great cost in Bothan lives? It’s still guaranteed to get at least a shot in should I lose the first turn.

Oh god yes. When I was last able to field both my Hierophants in a game, one of them got immediately flattened on the first shot of the first turn without doing a thing, and the other only hung on into turn 2 thanks to a stratagem that blocked line of sight to it. For my Imperial opponent it was just a case of pointing at and deleting units with D-weapons, there was no actual strategy involved. We only managed to get part way through turn 3 despite the game taking much of the day, and left feeling pretty unsatisfied that my centrepiece units achieved virtually nothing.

In a couple of 'smaller' Apoc games (7E) I used a Harridan, which either completely dominated the board or got killed by the tailored list required to counter it. The 40k rules at the time reaaaally didn't scale well to that sort of thing (hitting gargantuan flyers on 6+ was kinda funny) and to a lesser extent still don't now.

I'm not entirely sure what people are seeing in these rules that look good or (more importantly) fun to play. Maybe the idea of playing a game quickly is the appeal. I honestly don't know. Can someone explain it to me?

Oh indeed. But it’s still better than the 7th Ed days of ‘there is literally bugger all I can do against that’

Particularly memorable was a 7th Ed Apoc game. Both sides had a Reaver. Opponents got first turn, but I managed to seize (I’m really, genuinely, statistically unreasonably good at that), and we pummelled the opposing Reaver into the dirt. First turn. From then on, that entire flank was a game of ‘everyone leg it round the massive terrain piece’, as they attempted to withdraw, and we blasted anything in sight to kingdom come.

Fun in its way, but not terribly satisfying overall.

Would’ve helped if Adam hadn’t turned up late, and promptly deployed literally hundreds of Conscripts in front and around of my Knights to the point I couldn’t bloody go anywhere. The idiot!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Darsath wrote:
I'm not entirely sure what people are seeing in these rules that look good or (more importantly) fun to play. Maybe the idea of playing a game quickly is the appeal. I honestly don't know. Can someone explain it to me?

Scaling. To sum up in a single word

Darsath wrote:
I'm not entirely sure what people are seeing in these rules that look good or (more importantly) fun to play. Maybe the idea of playing a game quickly is the appeal. I honestly don't know. Can someone explain it to me?

Exactly that. A full size game of 40k at 2000 points takes fooooorever and can often be a bit of a slog. The size of a regular game of 40k has continued to go up as scale and power creep continue, so if GW wants games to be massive and let you use all your cool units I'm more than happy for it to be a streamlined experience. The fundamental differences of the game system are also very exciting. Use of D12 for weapons, alternating actions, and resolving damage at end of turn are all things that would make regular 40k better. I'm excited by the possibility of playing 2000 pt Apoc games instead of 2000 pt 40k games depending on how things shake out.

In 40k best way to counter titans though is to not bring your own. Then the titan is literally "I lose" button.

So summarizing what we know or can conject from this pair of previews:

1) Detachments will be named and feel the same but act different, and will be led by the model with the highest LD in the unit (but will only grant command points if they're a character).

What I'd guess from this is that detachments will be more likely closer to the minimum requirements that they are in 40k and they will not be as scalable. I might be wrong here, but I'm guessing if you want troops, you bring a battalion. if you want heavy supports, you bring a spearhead, etc. Maybe with an odd unit slot or two of each type coming along with a battalion (like we can see in the CSM box you can bring a unit of bikers, but you only require 1 HQ Character rather than 2)

The reason i'm guessing they're much more limited in max size from 40k is because they want to maintain a little bit more parity when it comes to activation.

2) USR's at least to some extent are returning. We can see on Guilliman's sword there is a standard special rule (Destroyer) and I'm betting that's how most special rules will be codified rather than the Bespoke Rules from 40k.

3) At least some weapon options will be maintained, but some will most likely go away.

On one hand, the Repulsor preview does show that it has 2 main weapon options, but on the other we can see the Flamecraft stratagem doesn't mention anything about actual "flamer weapons". I'm betting the structure you're likely to see is something like:

Space Marine squad (5 man)

Bolters and Small Arms - attacks user, SAP SAT whatever

Space Marine Squad may take a longrange heavy weapon - Adds a weapon with a better SAT stat which you'd use Heavy Bolter, Lascannon, Missile Launcher for

May take a shortrange anti-tank weapon - Adds a weapon you'd use a Plasma/Grav/Melta for

Rather than having differentiated stats for all the crazy numbers of options available. I'm also betting there'll be a single statline for most characters and the difference between a power weapon/chainsword/powerfist/lightning claw etc will be aesthetic.

If variable squad sizes are still a thing, the small arms being tied to "Attacks User" would seem to indicate that that's what you gain for a larger squad. i'm Curious to see if this will be the case or if you'll just take squads in multiples of the minimum size.

3) Saving and Wounding will probably both be on D12s given that Marines are sitting at SV6+.

4) Dedicated antitank weapons will be actively worse at hurting infantry. Take a look at the Repulsor's laser destroyer (lascannon) weapon option: it's got a SAP stat of 9+. this is likely because the Wounds stat on infantry is reflective of the max squad size, and you will have an Intercessor squad with 2 wounds, rather than a squad of intercessors with 2 wounds each. I'm guessing the Personnel/Tank split is probably dual-purposed to avoid having tanks have the crazy numbers of wounds they have in 40k, and to help differentiate weapon types low ROF weapons in base 40k will have bad SAP values in apoc.

none of this really says anything definitive, but it is interesting to speculate about!

To be honest I don't think this rules will be hard to adapt to 6mm to play epic.

For the_scotman’s Post?

Reasonable assumptions are reasonable I’d say.

Really, really wanna see more on the rules. I’m hyped!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
To be honest I don't think this rules will be hard to adapt to 6mm to play epic.

Very much agreed.

 Aaranis wrote:
Leak for the money cost of the new kits, along with all the other preorders of the 29th of June:

https://external-preview.redd.it/MY1x0kXz0cY2WNHCG53HL4YmTmC-E_up8UU49uMWPCM.jpg?auto=webp&s=97ea78e093fb29d2e08a90e443a668e5f72a72fb

If those are real the cost of the new tanks (and dice) are mindbogglingly bad compared to the detachments.

In the CSM box, its -$10 off the cost of new marine kits and the bikes and lord are free. Yet $45 for dice. Confuse-a-cat, ltd.

 Galas wrote:
To be honest I don't think this rules will be hard to adapt to 6mm to play epic.

Rules is easy. Sensible table size without board looking ridiculously cramped killing big battle feel is.

Voss wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Leak for the money cost of the new kits, along with all the other preorders of the 29th of June:

https://external-preview.redd.it/MY1x0kXz0cY2WNHCG53HL4YmTmC-E_up8UU49uMWPCM.jpg?auto=webp&s=97ea78e093fb29d2e08a90e443a668e5f72a72fb

If those are real the cost of the new tanks (and dice) are mindbogglingly bad compared to the detachments.

In the CSM box, its -$10 off the cost of new marine kits and the bikes and lord are free. Yet $45 for dice. Confuse-a-cat, ltd.

Ltd run splash of hype release box kits with built in discounts vs permanent kit costs.

The repulsive seems pretty onbrand with other kits its size. See Gorkanaut etc, all around the 100$ price point.

The little admech thingy is the only headscratcher for me. it looks like Rhino sized. maybe I"m just out of the loop on basic vehicle costs because I had 45$ buggies with the last release I bought vehicles with.

tneva82 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 Malkyr wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Curious. Why? Common Space Marines, Heretical or Loyalist are trash teir units in the current edition of the game. They bring nothing, die to massed S3 fire.

Many of us still buy units because they look cool and we want to paint them. I want to replace my old Chaos marines with the incredibly cooler new models.

Apocalypse has never been about winning or a competitive meta, it is the most beer and pretzels of formats ever made.

Especially in the context of massed battles I am sure you will need at least 30 basic marines.

And just like everyone else who tells me this, experience has shown me better.

Every format is about WAAC. Apoc, Killteam, AT, 40K, Sigmar, Necromunda, Warcry. They're all going to be WAAC games because the majority of the player base is WAAC.

I respect your love of the models however. I too like the new sculpts a lot. I've got 40 of em myself, but even when I play "friendly" games with them. They just get shot off the table turn one, do nothing and make me very sad.

10,000 year old veterans touched by the dark gods indeed...

Just because players at your meta are all waac doesn't mean they are all waac everywhere. Funny that.

I've traveled and played all over.

I value those who like to play the game as I do. But, it's clear that the majority are competitive players who want to curb stomp your teeth in.

The rules are interesting so far until you get to the card deck.

At that price I sure hope that the new Repulsor comes with the weapon sprue of the standard version too so that you can built either and more importantly arm the Executioner with lascannons.

A key point of interest for me: I only have room for a 6x4 at home, so if the game is designed to fit 3k equivalent on a 6x4 and play reasonably I'll be a happy chappy.