Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 LunarSol wrote:
Wouldn't the intention for armies to be larger than 2000 pt equivalents?

Very much so. I reckon with these rules you could double a 2000pt / 100PL game to 4000pt / 200PL and still finish quicker than in 40k.

I got a bit excited when I saw all of the Forge World data sheets. That soon passed when I realised that the Ad Mech section doesn’t contain all of Forge World’s gorgeous Mechanicum range.

A new Eliminator weapon option confirmed!

Just occurred to me... will there be a place for Forgeworld in Apocalypse?

I hope so, would be a shame otherwise ! So many great model are just made for it !

The phrase "Light Dark Angels" needs to happen more often. For a moment I thought it referred to the trai- er, non-Fallen DA, but then I realized it was a unit keyword.

Now that's interesting - Spindle Drones appear in the Apoc listings - the tri walker alien machines from the Blackstone Fortress Game


Is - is - is GW going to give us a heavy metal 80s War of the Worlds Xenos faction?!

 techsoldaten wrote:
Just occurred to me... will there be a place for Forgeworld in Apocalypse?

How is this a question at this point? Datasheets for near every model Forgeworld ever made have already been published.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
Now that's interesting - Spindle Drones appear in the Apoc listings - the tri walker alien machines from the Blackstone Fortress Game


Is - is - is GW going to give us a heavy metal 80s War of the Worlds Xenos faction?!

Er, everything GW puts out in self-contained games has 40k/AoS rules.

Jump pack techmarine?

Seriously though. What is up with the bolter profiles?!

Heavy Bolter wounds on the same roll as normal Bolters and only has one attack. If rapid fire doubles shots like 40k then Heavy Bolter has LESS shots than a Bolter. Storm Bolters and Hurricane Bolters have the same amount of shots. Reiver Heavy pistol has a better to wound than HEAVY BOLTERS! Why are Bolter Rifles better than Special Issue bolters, and as good as plasma not overcharged?! Why are bolters 7+ acrross the line while lasguns are 8+ especially considering that Bolter Rifles are 5+?!?!?!?!?! The Macro Plasma Incinerator has a 5+ SAP! Why do we have the same weapons with different stats? Terminator Storm Bolters have x2 attack while vehicle SBs have 1 attack.

I fail to understand some of the logic behind these stats. Bolt Rifles have to be a typo right?

I see they’re continuing the transports that can’t transport Primaris nonsense in this game too. Why can’t a Mastodon transport Primaris marines exactly?

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Why can’t a Mastodon transport Primaris marines exactly?

The Mastadon uses micro USB adapters and Primaris use Lightning adapters?

Can anyone figure out why custodes at max size get more expensive then the equivalent amount of smaller squads? Also with storm shields it says +1 power to equip, that doesnt seem right to improve to 3+ so maybe +1 power per custode or per each grouping (+1 @ 3 +2 @ 5 +3 @ 10)?

So we get all the looted vehicles, and index units like chaos lords on demonic steeds.......

but I can't use my warboss in mega armor. siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh

Sounds about par for the course when it comes to GW.

edit: And I guess I'll have to count my Plague marines with plasma guns as bolters? otherwise I can't even use them. What a weird set of rules. So much for 'use your entire collection'

Grave33 wrote:
Can anyone figure out why custodes at max size get more expensive then the equivalent amount of smaller squads?

That's true for a lot of units (but not all). I don't really understand it myself, because a lot of the units don't actually benefit from being bigger- they advance in a linear fashion (every five models gets X shots & wounds, 2X shots &wounds or whatever). So a big unit can survive more, but ends up with penalties from critical damage, while 2 small units have to be damaged separately and losing one doesn't penalize the other.



@Aldran- keep in mind there will be more small arms than heavy weapons. Often a unit has 1 heavy (or special) and 4 small arms, so the comparable wound roll is covering weight of fire. So a guard infantry squad has _8_ lasguns producing 2 attacks at 8+/10+ and _1_ heavy bolter at 7+/9+. That's where the disparity comes from. Same with marines 9 bolters and 1 HB end up in favor of the bolters, because really, they should.

Aldran wrote:
Seriously though. What is up with the bolter profiles?!

Heavy Bolter wounds on the same roll as normal Bolters and only has one attack. If rapid fire doubles shots like 40k then Heavy Bolter has LESS shots than a Bolter. Storm Bolters and Hurricane Bolters have the same amount of shots. Reiver Heavy pistol has a better to wound than HEAVY BOLTERS! Why are Bolter Rifles better than Special Issue bolters, and as good as plasma not overcharged?! Why are bolters 7+ acrross the line while lasguns are 8+ especially considering that Bolter Rifles are 5+?!?!?!?!?! The Macro Plasma Incinerator has a 5+ SAP! Why do we have the same weapons with different stats? Terminator Storm Bolters have x2 attack while vehicle SBs have 1 attack.

I fail to understand some of the logic behind these stats. Bolt Rifles have to be a typo right?

Special weapons add attacks, so a single heavy bolter shot is equivalent to a whole 5 man squad of shooting.

Voss wrote:

Grave33 wrote:
Can anyone figure out why custodes at max size get more expensive then the equivalent amount of smaller squads?

That's true for a lot of units (but not all). I don't really understand it myself, because a lot of the units don't actually benefit from being bigger- they advance in a linear fashion (every five models gets X shots & wounds, 2X shots &wounds or whatever). So a big unit can survive more, but ends up with penalties from critical damage, while 2 small units have to be damaged separately and losing one doesn't penalize the other.



@Aldran- keep in mind there will be more small arms than heavy weapons. Often a unit has 1 heavy (or special) and 4 small arms, so the comparable wound roll is covering weight of fire. So a guard infantry squad has _8_ lasguns producing 2 attacks at 8+/10+ and _1_ heavy bolter at 7+/9+. That's where the disparity comes from. Same with marines 9 bolters and 1 HB end up in favor of the bolters, because really, they should.

Can you tell me what ones you've seen that get more expensive. Worst I can find is unit staying at the same ratio. Even terminator custodes get cheaper as your squad size increases.

Cynista wrote:
Why on earth is the Canoptek Tomb Stalker power level 12 when the Sentinel (which is better) is power level 8?

Welcome to the Games Workshop™ HHHobby.

 Don Savik wrote:
So we get all the looted vehicles, and index units like chaos lords on demonic steeds.......

but I can't use my warboss in mega armor. siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh

Sounds about par for the course when it comes to GW.

edit: And I guess I'll have to count my Plague marines with plasma guns as bolters? otherwise I can't even use them. What a weird set of rules. So much for 'use your entire collection'

Are you sure there's no megaboss? I've noticed some hq"'s have options hidden on the regular versions datasheet. So for example there's no terminator captain, you need to look at the captain sheet and buy the terminator armor there as an upgrade.

 Don Savik wrote:
but I can't use my warboss in mega armor. siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh

Sounds about par for the course when it comes to GW.

Well GW don't make a Warboss in Mega-Armour mini, so...

 xttz wrote:

 Jadenim wrote:
So what the hell is an Ork kart in the GW pdf??

They're the looted vehicle rules from the last Chapter Approved. Karts are chimera/rhino equivalents, wagons are looted russes / predators, a battle fortress is a looted baneblade / shadowsword.

Edit: they need to fix the PL values for those a bit. Wagons are 3 PL like a Kart (Russes are around 10), Battlefortresses show 8PL/12PL depending which page you look at (Baneblades are 25-28).

PL might be off, but it's worth noting that the LRBT has better weapons, better BS and can shoot twice with Grinding Advance. The Ork Wagon is a little better in melee, but still pretty bad at it.

I'm glad they included the CA looted vehicles for the Orks.

It is unfortunate that some (but not all) of the Index units were missing. As has been said, no Mega Armored Warboss is a bummer. This seems like the kind of format where it wouldn't be too difficult to come up with homebrew rules and get them approved by our opponent though.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Don Savik wrote:
but I can't use my warboss in mega armor. siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh

Sounds about par for the course when it comes to GW.

Well GW don't make a Warboss in Mega-Armour mini, so...

Yet the Khan got his bike back and they don't make that model! Infact all the index only space marine characters on bikes are back in apoc. However, all the index only chaos space marine characters on bikes are gone. Consistency yet again at it's finest.

Grave33 wrote:

Voss wrote:

Grave33 wrote:
Can anyone figure out why custodes at max size get more expensive then the equivalent amount of smaller squads?

That's true for a lot of units (but not all). I don't really understand it myself, because a lot of the units don't actually benefit from being bigger- they advance in a linear fashion (every five models gets X shots & wounds, 2X shots &wounds or whatever). So a big unit can survive more, but ends up with penalties from critical damage, while 2 small units have to be damaged separately and losing one doesn't penalize the other.



@Aldran- keep in mind there will be more small arms than heavy weapons. Often a unit has 1 heavy (or special) and 4 small arms, so the comparable wound roll is covering weight of fire. So a guard infantry squad has _8_ lasguns producing 2 attacks at 8+/10+ and _1_ heavy bolter at 7+/9+. That's where the disparity comes from. Same with marines 9 bolters and 1 HB end up in favor of the bolters, because really, they should.

Can you tell me what ones you've seen that get more expensive. Worst I can find is unit staying at the same ratio. Even terminator custodes get cheaper as your squad size increases.

Eh? Its pretty common (edit: yes, I'm abbreviating PL for Power Level rather than Power Rating- not fixing it)
SM Tactical Squad: 4 PL for 5, 9 PL for 10, plus one more for a heavy weapon.
Centurion Assault Squad: 9 PL for 3, 22(!) for 6.

Howling Banshees: 5 for 5, 12 PL for 10
Striking Scorpions: 7 PL for 5, 16 PL for 10
Guardian Defenders 3 PL for 10, 8 PL for 20 (almost triple)
Rangers 5 for 5, 12 PL for 10.
Dark Reapers 5 for 5, 12 PL for 10
(Fire Dragons and wraith guard go down though...)

Chaos:
Possessed, 4 PL for 5, 11 PL for 10, 16 PL for 15, 21 PL for 20 (first 5 cost 4, second five cost 7, next two groups of 5 cost 5... what?)
Chaos Cultists 2 PL for 10, 6 PL for 20, 9 PL for 30, 12 PL for 40 (So you can have 40 or 60 (6x10) for the same PL
Chaos Marines are unlike Imperial marines, and are 4 PL per 5.
Chaos Bikers are just 8 PL for 3, or 10 PL for 6- quite a reduction, but then 15 PL for 9

Necron Warriors. 6 PL for 10, 14 PL for 20
(Though Necrons also have a bunch that go down- deathmarks, praetorians, flayed ones, wraiths among others)

There are presumably a lot more examples, that was just from a quick scan of a few PDFs.
Yeah, its... really weird. Others do go up in step, but I can't find a rationale or common thread, because it affects really basic units and elite units. There are similar vehicles that are wildly different in cost. The two primaris tanks, for example

This looks like an unfinished draft of army lists with wildly different standards used for different units, or even the same unit at different sizes. This is terrible even for GW.

These need another pass by release day, because this just ain't right.

Voss wrote:
This looks like an unfinished draft of army lists which with wildly different standards used for different units, or even the same unit at different sizes.

Sounds about right. It's pretty disappointing to see something with so much potential turn into a half-finished mess just to rush it out by an arbitrary deadline. Or at least I'm hoping that's the explanation, and GW isn't so laughably terrible at math that they didn't realize how bad some of these rules are...

Well I was looking forward to digging out ALL the 40k models for this. Now that I've seen the data sheets I think it's a hard pass. It does look like they are trying to nail the coffin closed on small marines though.

I think part of this is due to the dynamic of how units take wounds. When you increase a unit to two wounds, you are not just doubling the amount of damage they take, but almost quadrupling it when you consider how many blast markers you have to inflict to have a good chance of closing the deal on killing it. We also don't know what all the command assets will do - I expect Imperium will be able to reinforce their units or reduce the effects of critical damage much more easily than Chaos.

The card decks are probably going to have a major effect on the game, so I suspect the power levels may be influenced by the unique effects each Army can drop on their units to buff them.

Was excited but after seeing the datasheets I think I'm gonna pass. There some real head scratchers when it comes to the stats on a lot of units. Expecting Apocalypse games to be balanced is a fool's errand but I at least expected whoever wrote the rules to have done some basic math and playtesting.

Is that different to regular 40K in any way? A lot of units suck, some are good. Some factions are worse than others.

Hmm the Aquilon Terminator's Lastrum Stormbolters wound on a 9+, when Primaris Bolters wound on a 6+.

The more I look at Apoc, the less I want anything to do with it.

 Peregrine wrote:

Voss wrote:
This looks like an unfinished draft of army lists which with wildly different standards used for different units, or even the same unit at different sizes.

Sounds about right. It's pretty disappointing to see something with so much potential turn into a half-finished mess just to rush it out by an arbitrary deadline. Or at least I'm hoping that's the explanation, and GW isn't so laughably terrible at math that they didn't realize how bad some of these rules are...

So, you never played the game, you don't know the full rules, but from a quick read of a part of them you already decided that you could do a better work at designing them.

I'm going to define this as "Going full dakka".