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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It'll be pretty easy to know if this is true or not when they announce Diablo 4.

Well, the FPS or not part, yes.

But diablo 3 already had Ultimate-like skills on some characters, and the entire point of the diablo 3 expansion was bad-guy angels.

Hawky wrote:Not great, not terrible. The game could use a few more months in the oven.

I think you're being overly kind. Fallout Tactics had more tactical depth, more than decade before. And the roleplaying side just seemed to be the NPCs vomiting exposition about the original game.

I'm not knocking it, but I just never, ever think about gak like this. I get easily confused when I see the stories and then wonder why in the world anyone would care.

Removed - BrookM

The real issue it is and has in regards to AAA is twofold, as above, when longstanding series get sudden changes for what is dubbed "virtue signaling" but really just PR. (under the presumption that any PR is good PR)

And secondly, that even though they say (AAA industry) that these issues are dear to them, basically make 180 as soon as China gets involved.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Removed - BrookM

The real issue it is and has in regards to AAA is twofold, as above, when longstanding series get sudden changes for what is dubbed "virtue signaling" but really just PR. (under the presumption that any PR is good PR)

And secondly, that even though they say (AAA industry) that these issues are dear to them, basically make 180 as soon as China gets involved.

This is why I don't get that attached to the characters. Ultimately, my hobbies are distractions. I never take them so seriously as to expect them to mirror real life.

Voss wrote:
Well, that reads like a mix of paranoid fantasies, outright incorrect info (vulpera are the next horde allied race, for example) and some alt-right whining.

I love how "this game will have icky gay people in it!" is given the same gravity as "the programmers are horribly overworked". Clearly these things are equally terrible.

And I think the sources on the Overwatch lore changes would turn out to be Fanfiction.net and Deviantart if you dug a little.

 Elemental wrote:

Voss wrote:
Well, that reads like a mix of paranoid fantasies, outright incorrect info (vulpera are the next horde allied race, for example) and some alt-right whining.

I love how "this game will have icky gay people in it!" is given the same gravity as "the programmers are horribly overworked". Clearly these things are equally terrible.

And I think the sources on the Overwatch lore changes would turn out to be Fanfiction.net and Deviantart if you dug a little.

It's hard for me to tell, but what I got from that entry was more the quota comment. We need; X number of blacks, X number of women, X number of gay people, X number of trans people, etc.

If your only purpose for the creation of the character is to meet a quota in an effort to make the populace "feel" more diverse, then you're doing it wrong.

I mean take ST: DS9 for example. Ben Sisko was not a tolkien Black Guy. He started out as a very stalwart character, a young commander. Bust as the show went one, he grew and grew (So did Worf) into one of the best written and acted characters in the franchise. Far Beyond the Stars really delta with the topic of racism in a very positive, but realistic light. We didn't have to have something jammed into our faces either, there was a lot more subtlety involved. These days, especially in gaming, diversity is often thrown into the mix in order to appease those who are calling for it, or to force the issue with people who might not support it, or who at the very least are indifferent to it.

 Togusa wrote:
tolkien Black Guy

Token. Just mentioning because the typo is funny ^^'.

Character quotas are often seen as a sign that gameplay elements are being neglected. They don't have to be. But the impression that many players have is that if you know your game is going to suck, then play up the diversity angle to compensate.

Again, your personal experiences may differ. I'm not posting to argue over this with anyone here. I'm merely relating perceptions that I've heard from others.

I wouldn't be surprised if the list is a mix of true and false stuff. But it'll be at least a couple of years before we'll be able to definitively say some of the stuff is fake.

As a FFXIV player, I personally find the claim of a ban on any mention of that game to be hilarious. I also find it telling, if true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something that occurred to me...

She’ll be paired with Widowmaker.
*snip*
Widowmaker now LGBTQ+ for quota reasons.

Widowmaker's one of the few characters that had a definite sexual orientation in the game's (limited) background. She got kidnapped by the bad guys, brainwashed, and sent back to murder her husband. Ergo, at one point she was married and had a sexual interest in men (and one in particular).

So assuming this list is legit (and this factoid in particular), Blizzard would be adding the "crazed lesbian" trope to Widowmaker's personality, since her sexuality apparently changed as a result of her brainwashing. Isn't usage of that trope generally frowned upon?

That list sounds like a bunch of crazy nonsense to be honest. I'll bash Blizzard all day, but I'd prefer to bash them over actual facts and their crappy games.

 Melissia wrote:
That list sounds like a bunch of crazy nonsense to be honest. I'll bash Blizzard all day, but I'd prefer to bash them over actual facts and their crappy games.

We might be able to confirm or deny some of it by Saturday, given that Blizzcon is about to start.

Eumerin wrote:
Character quotas are often seen as a sign that gameplay elements are being neglected. They don't have to be. But the impression that many players have is that if you know your game is going to suck, then play up the diversity angle to compensate.

Again, your personal experiences may differ. I'm not posting to argue over this with anyone here. I'm merely relating perceptions that I've heard from others.

See, if we express our opinions in a public forum, we may be engaged on them. It's a discussion board, this sort of thing happens occasionally.

So just to be clear, you've got no problems with representation (of course you don't, you're not a bad person!), but some people whose opinions we should all really care about might hypothetically see it as Blizzard deflecting criticism if their game is bad. And that's clearly.....just as bad a business practice as mistreating your staff or bending the knee to China? Just as big a concern?

Or maybe, just maybe.....the author of this piece has problems with LGBT+ people, and is trying to legitimise it behind a thin veneer of "but think of the fans!".

(And of course, let's not let that sly little assertion that the only reason people might put variety in their character roster is a "quota" pass unnoticed.)

Widowmaker's one of the few characters that had a definite sexual orientation in the game's (limited) background. She got kidnapped by the bad guys, brainwashed, and sent back to murder her husband. Ergo, at one point she was married and had a sexual interest in men (and one in particular).

So assuming this list is legit (and this factoid in particular), Blizzard would be adding the "crazed lesbian" trope to Widowmaker's personality, since her sexuality apparently changed as a result of her brainwashing. Isn't usage of that trope generally frowned upon?

You're giving it way too much thought. I think it's more that somebody saw some girl-on-girl fanart (because the main "good" character will always get paired with the main "bad" character even if they hate each other in canon) and either jumped to conclusions or decided it'd make some good clickbait for the Not Bigoted But crowd.

The really implausible thing is assuming Blizzard will put that much effort into the lore. The Overwatch story has been pretty much stagnant for years beyond "Here's a new character." or "Talon are advancing their vague evil plan to start a new robot war or take over the world or something."

Eumerin wrote:

So assuming this list is legit (and this factoid in particular), Blizzard would be adding the "crazed lesbian" trope to Widowmaker's personality, since her sexuality apparently changed as a result of her brainwashing. Isn't usage of that trope generally frowned upon?

Could also be the sex-craved bisexual, a trope which is also frowned upon.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Eumerin wrote:

So assuming this list is legit (and this factoid in particular), Blizzard would be adding the "crazed lesbian" trope to Widowmaker's personality, since her sexuality apparently changed as a result of her brainwashing. Isn't usage of that trope generally frowned upon?

Could also be the sex-craved bisexual, a trope which is also frowned upon.

So we shall add, cheap and bad writing for PR sake aswell to the list?

 Elemental wrote:
So just to be clear, you've got no problems with representation (of course you don't, you're not a bad person!), but some people whose opinions we should all really care about might hypothetically see it as Blizzard deflecting criticism if their game is bad. And that's clearly.....just as bad a business practice as mistreating your staff or bending the knee to China? Just as big a concern?

The problem with that argument is that it assumes that people do (or even should) care about things equally.

How Blizzard treat their workers or the Hong Kong stuff genuinely doesn't matter to some people. All they care about is playing good games, and find that forced diversity just tends to ruin it as it becomes less about the game than it does about making everyone gay or trans or whatever, seemingly out of no where (especially on established characters), just to hit cynical diversity quotas and appease a very vocal minority (it's only worse when it has no impact on the game at all - why even bring it up?).

Me personally? I think the most important thing is the Hong Kong stuff, because Blizz is going to have to address it this weekend, there will be a protest (that I hope is well attended) and if Blizz doesn't address it then they just deserve to fail as a company as far as I'm concerned. Will they ban people from wearing T-shirts with umbrella signs on them? Pro-HK stuff? We'll see soon. It's going to be a very interesting, and perhaps even a make-or-break, weekend for Blizzard.

And all the while, Bobby fething Kotic will be sitting back, counting his multi-millions, and doing nothing to improve the video game industry. The witch.

I am honestly at a point where i am curious about blizzcon.

Imagine, curious about a con in 2019?

Bets if clusterfeth or not clusterfeth?

Kinda disappointed my previous post here got deleted outright, rather than edited by the mods, but dems the breaks I guess when you use the triple consonant word.

@Not Online

Oh 100% clusterfeth, no way Blizzard is able to spin this without coming out as the bad guy. Either they go full censorship and double down on being the lapdop of China or they try to keep it open and get drowned out by protesters. They had their chance to save face in reverting the changes made to blitz chung but with their public statements and half-hearted PR response, they effectively screwed themselves.

 Grimskul wrote:
Kinda disappointed my previous post here got deleted outright, rather than edited by the mods, but dems the breaks I guess when you use the triple consonant word.

@Not Online

Oh 100% clusterfeth, no way Blizzard is able to spin this without coming out as the bad guy. Either they go full censorship and double down on being the lapdop of China or they try to keep it open and get drowned out by protesters. They had their chance to save face in reverting the changes made to blitz chung but with their public statements and half-hearted PR response, they effectively screwed themselves.

I still don't think this is an issue. At first, when I saw it I was pretty amused, but now that I've had time to analyze it, I see it for what it is: People Reddit karma whoring.

The actions of this game company have feth all to do with the very complex and old issue of HK sovereignty and the Chinese government. Very few people are going to care about this in a month, and if you go to the r/Blizzard page, you'll see it's already beginning. Many people are taking the pro-HK crowd to task and telling them to put up or shut up. I've seen a large influx of posts from commentators who want the memes and karma posts to go elsewhere. I think this will only grow strong as people get tired of seeing the dead horse beaten into a second death.

One comment I saw really made me chuckle. Someone posted "We get it, you're all assmad, now go the feth to sleep ffs."

Not Online!!! wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Eumerin wrote:

So assuming this list is legit (and this factoid in particular), Blizzard would be adding the "crazed lesbian" trope to Widowmaker's personality, since her sexuality apparently changed as a result of her brainwashing. Isn't usage of that trope generally frowned upon?

Could also be the sex-craved bisexual, a trope which is also frowned upon.

So we shall add, cheap and bad writing for PR sake aswell to the list?

Worked for Capcom, I guess. Juri was the only SFIV newcomer to return in SFV...

I was willing to buy the "bad balancing act" explanation for Blizzard's response to the Hong Kong statement up until I found out they fired the guys running the camera. Yes, Blizzard rolled it back later. But the fact that their knee-jerk response was to drop the hammer on two guys who had no way of knowing what was up before-hand sets off alarm bells.

Eumerin wrote:
I was willing to buy the "bad balancing act" explanation for Blizzard's response to the Hong Kong statement up until I found out they fired the guys running the camera. Yes, Blizzard rolled it back later. But the fact that their knee-jerk response was to drop the hammer on two guys who had no way of knowing what was up before-hand sets off alarm bells.

It's Activision -Blizzard, hiding behind the last vestages of the good named Blizzard, but don't ever expect something good or decent from them anymore, the old guard from Blizzard got removed /left.

Let's not pretend the "old guard" of Blizzard was ever really that great to begin with.

 Melissia wrote:
Let's not pretend the "old guard" of Blizzard was ever really that great to begin with.

well it was better.
But better is indeed relative so yeah.

Eumerin wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
That list sounds like a bunch of crazy nonsense to be honest. I'll bash Blizzard all day, but I'd prefer to bash them over actual facts and their crappy games.

We might be able to confirm or deny some of it by Saturday, given that Blizzcon is about to start.

Can deny most of it now. Diablo 4 story and gameplay trailers are up.

- Not FPS.
- Standard demon enemies (mostly the same as d3, in fact).
- New big boss, but she was covered in the lore books in D3, particularly in the expansion. As the Daughter of Hatred, she's the offspring of a Prime Evil (Mephisto).
[Random aside, she also made Sanctuary (the world) with an angel and spawned 'nephalem' and, effectively, humans,

True to the standard Blizzard metaplot, she's been banished to the Void because... of course she has. Blizzard effectively only has one story to tell. The fanfics (and 'art') of her, Kerrigan, and Sylvanas effectively write themselves.


Not much new in the game play, either. A little extra use of the verticality of levels (player and enemy actually climbing cliffs), return of the sorceress and the druid, and the barbarian again.
Gameplay trailer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RdDpqCmjb4

Story trailer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bRWIdOMfro&t=3s

The only thing I want from Blizzard in Diablo 4 is offline pc play .

I mostly want it to be longer and meatier. Diablo 3 was waaayy too short, and that 'adventure mode' filler didn't compensate.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Elemental wrote:
So just to be clear, you've got no problems with representation (of course you don't, you're not a bad person!), but some people whose opinions we should all really care about might hypothetically see it as Blizzard deflecting criticism if their game is bad. And that's clearly.....just as bad a business practice as mistreating your staff or bending the knee to China? Just as big a concern?

The problem with that argument is that it assumes that people do (or even should) care about things equally.

How Blizzard treat their workers or the Hong Kong stuff genuinely doesn't matter to some people. All they care about is playing good games, and find that forced diversity just tends to ruin it as it becomes less about the game than it does about making everyone gay or trans or whatever, seemingly out of no where (especially on established characters), just to hit cynical diversity quotas and appease a very vocal minority (it's only worse when it has no impact on the game at all - why even bring it up?).

So much wrong in one post. Let's break out the bingo card and start ticking things off, shall we?

--First, the big assumption that all diversity is forced diversity. Because nobody could possibly do such a thing sincerely, or think that having a more diverse cast will broaden the appeal of the game and sell more copies and also be a good thing in itself. And come on now, let's not pretend that having the heroes of a game be all hetereosexual white guys isn't equally cynical and calculated. Because it is, it just doesn't stand out to you.

--Second, the attempt to assert that people asking for diversity in a game are an unreasonable vocal minority, but the Anti-SJW's who get hyper angry and concerned about THE GAY in a game are somehow not the exact same thing. This is the thing that really ticks me off when you get the Anti-SJW's doing their Not Homophobic But dance and pretending that they're the reasonable ones. It's pure undiluted hypocrisy and deserves to be called out.

--Third, the assertion that diversity in media doesn't matter, and has no positive effect. That immediately tells me that you don't know how it feels to grow up being told by omission that People Like You don't get to be cool or heroic, but rather relegated to thoughtless stereotypes or sidekicks.

--Fourth and most importantly, the assumption that OW2 will be bad because of diversity. Stop, think and realise how foolish that sounds. Did Tracer's mechanics change when the lore revealed she had a girlfriend? Pretty sure they didn't, and that she was just as good / bad a character as she'd been the day before--this isn't an RPG where getting to know the characters is actually important for gameplay. If you didn't care about the lore, the effect was 0, zilch, nada, nothing. If OW2 is bad, it'll be bad because the characters are unbalanced or the gameplay is broken / unfun, not because of lines in a bio written by a different team from the actual game programmers. Not that that will stop the Anti-SJW's squawking and crowing about how it clearly failed because of those icky gay people.

Voss wrote:Not much new in the game play, either. A little extra use of the verticality of levels (player and enemy actually climbing cliffs), return of the sorceress and the druid, and the barbarian again.

Any notion of the release window? 2020? 2021?

I realize the game likely won't be even as good as D2, but I'll probably still play it some.

Overread wrote:The only thing I want from Blizzard in Diablo 4 is offline pc play .

Unfortunately I think there is almost no chance of this, probably some grumbling notion about "piracy" or "cheating" or something.

Voss wrote:

Eumerin wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
That list sounds like a bunch of crazy nonsense to be honest. I'll bash Blizzard all day, but I'd prefer to bash them over actual facts and their crappy games.

We might be able to confirm or deny some of it by Saturday, given that Blizzcon is about to start.

Can deny most of it now. Diablo 4 story and gameplay trailers are up.

- Not FPS.
- Standard demon enemies (mostly the same as d3, in fact).
- New big boss, but she was covered in the lore books in D3, particularly in the expansion. As the Daughter of Hatred, she's the offspring of a Prime Evil (Mephisto).
[Random aside, she also made Sanctuary (the world) with an angel and spawned 'nephalem' and, effectively, humans,

True to the standard Blizzard metaplot, she's been banished to the Void because... of course she has. Blizzard effectively only has one story to tell. The fanfics (and 'art') of her, Kerrigan, and Sylvanas effectively write themselves.


Not much new in the game play, either. A little extra use of the verticality of levels (player and enemy actually climbing cliffs), return of the sorceress and the druid, and the barbarian again.
Gameplay trailer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RdDpqCmjb4

Story trailer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bRWIdOMfro&t=3s

They also said it's years off, these are the first THREE characters, and that a lot if going to change between now and then. I'm betting this will be a 21-22 release.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
The only thing I want from Blizzard in Diablo 4 is offline pc play .

It won't happen. The longer time goes on, the more Internet connectivity will creep in. I can't think of a PC game I play currently that doesn't require an internet connection.

 Elemental wrote:


--First, the big assumption that all diversity is forced diversity. Because nobody could possibly do such a thing sincerely, or think that having a more diverse cast will broaden the appeal of the game and sell more copies and also be a good thing in itself. And come on now, let's not pretend that having the heroes of a game be all hetereosexual white guys isn't equally cynical and calculated. Because it is, it just doesn't stand out to you.

May i ask how you come to this conclusion from H.B.M.C's post?

Just curious due to not having english as my motherlanguage.

Well, as I said, the rumours were going to be pretty easy to either debunk or support based upon what Bliz revealed.

D4 isn't a FPS... so that stuff was full of crap. Case closed as far as I'm concerned.

 Elemental wrote:
--First, the big assumption that all diversity is forced diversity.

Never said that.

 Elemental wrote:
Second, the attempt to assert that people asking for diversity in a game are an unreasonable vocal minority, but the Anti-SJW's who get hyper angry and concerned about THE GAY in a game are somehow not the exact same thing.

Never said that either...

 Elemental wrote:
--Third, the assertion that diversity in media doesn't matter...

Didn't say that...

 Elemental wrote:
Fourth and most importantly, the assumption that OW2 will be bad because of diversity...

And certainly never said that.

I can certainly expand on any of the things I think you said (for example, I do think that diversity and representation is exceptionally important for children as they are growing up, as it effectively shows that anyone can do anything (within reason)), but given that you've chosen to just yell at me over things I never actually said, what would be the point?

When you want to respond to what I said, please do so. In the meantime, I hope you don't have a straw allergy.