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Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Amateur vs amateur isn’t gonna reveal the serious problems. They dumbed the rules down in some ways yet also made insane wtfrapebbqyourass combos and army lists possible. Ynarri strength from death insanity was a good example of how things get way out of hand. How many times do you hear people say how they used to have a great army but it was nerfed so bad it’s now unplayable against the new cheeseball lists. There is something wrong with 40k.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 Excommunicatus wrote:
So, how to say this politely?

Ishagu has a long, long, long, long history of always, always, always, always erring on a favourable view of any action GW takes.

Which is fine, 'cause, you know, that's just, like, their opinion.


IOW he's come into a thread that is clearly critical of 40k (there's no mistaking what's inside this thread) just to be an antagonistic individual.


Games Workshop Delenda Est.

Users on ignore- 53.

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Something that needs to be fixed that drives me insane is that you hit a target with your lance strength 12 or whatever fire prism. Then proceed to roll a 1 for damage. Heavy weapons like lascannons need to be 3+D3. Or something. It ruins the damn game when you’re just rolling garbage for your critical heavy weapons.
   
Made in gb
Irked Necron Immortal





warpedpig wrote:
HQ should just be skilled warriors with some special fighting ability but not auras that generate Death Stars. With multiple rerolls and bull


I think auras definitely need looking at.

Maybe something like MWBD would be better - where the HQ can only buff a single unit, rather than everything nearby.


warpedpig wrote:
Something that needs to be fixed that drives me insane is that you hit a target with your lance strength 12 or whatever fire prism. Then proceed to roll a 1 for damage. Heavy weapons like lascannons need to be 3+D3. Or something. It ruins the damn game when you’re just rolling garbage for your critical heavy weapons.


Yeah, I'm not a fan of using d6 for damage (or for shots, for that matter). Maybe 2d3 or d3+2?
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Something that Apoc does some work to fix. The scale, a game doesn’t really work well when you have titans and individually stats for guardsmen. Everything should work based on units not models.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




1. Faction specific abilities.
-Death to the false emperor is such a broken mechanic when facing lord discos, morty or any other melee chaos unit as imperium. Chaos players don't like vengeance for cadia. Bringing back units of demons when killed by grey knights. All of them are terrible and unbalanced rules.

2. CP/Strats/psychic powers
Some are just too good (double shoot, double move) a lot of them are really bad (SM/GK). Vect should be a universal strat at least. Throw them all out and start over as small fluffy bonuses (pass morale, re-roll charge distance...). Too many ways to stack/abuse the buffs that GW isn't taking the time to balance. CP farming (loyal 32/rusty 17) is terrible game design.

3. Invlun saves, toughness, strength
Vehicles and t6 or better should have good saves and lots of wounds, t5 and below should have invluns and not a huge amount of wounds.
High ap, high str weapons should be the weapon of choice against those targets not str 5-6 ap -2 2d with re-roll wounds.
Give more 1+ armor saves to land raiders/knights/tau suits with a couple more wounds and change eldar to 4+/5++ with a couple less.
GW should have gone all out with the str/toughness and not top themselves out at t 8/9. Let knights work at t12 with str 24 weapons to leave some design space for armor, elite infantry and other classes to get into that wounded on 2 range. S6 is much less appealing if you wound infantry on 2 but knights on 6s, you may actually have to bring anti-vehicle weapons to deal with vehicles. A dark lance actually would be viable instead of just needing more disintegration cannons.

4. Melee
It's bad for most units. Unless you a packing a ton of special rules to get you there (re-rollable 9" charges are not viable) and a ton of special rules once you get there (like boys and their 100+ attacks) it is very bad. It leads to a lot of really bad units in a lot of codexes. The fall back mechanic exacerbates this problem.

5. Drones/losing at list building.
Shield drones are such a terrible mechanic. Tau would need a complete re-write without them but it's such a binary situation where you can kill 40 drones turn 1-2 or you lose that it just isn't good game design. There are several lists like this (knights, pox-walker smite spam, tau drones, eldar flyers, vs chaos as marines) where unless you have the specialized tools to deal with that particular set of problems you will not have a way to win the game. It's okay to have bad match-ups but auto-loses seem like bad game design.

6. Balance
Disco lords, plague bearers, butcher cannons, disi cannons, eldar flyers, wave serpents, guilliman (he feths up the entire marine line), rock saws, gsc characters, relic shock attack guns, callidus grav tanks, tank commanders, (just from what I can remember last tourney I played). It's not a huge list but there are a lot of really unbalanced things in the game right now. GW actually seems to be trying to address them which is why it's last on my list but they are failing especially hard with the CP strats and psychic powers.
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





warpedpig wrote:
Something that needs to be fixed that drives me insane is that you hit a target with your lance strength 12 or whatever fire prism. Then proceed to roll a 1 for damage. Heavy weapons like lascannons need to be 3+D3. Or something. It ruins the damn game when you’re just rolling garbage for your critical heavy weapons.


All damage should be fixed, random damage isn’t fun and it makes balance difficult.
   
Made in gb
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine






 Lance845 wrote:
 small_gods wrote:
 Crimson Devil wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Crimson Devil wrote:
The most broken?

The online community.


Indeed - It's telling that we've mostly moved past talking about broken units and now people just talk about structural items that can be tweaked. And yet we're still met with over the top statements about how it's an "exceptionally bad game" and sometimes people who don't even play it.





Well people don't want to lose their Dakka street cred. Even a mildly positive statement about 40k can get you denounced as a white knight fanboi. Then all that hard work behind their keyboards goes down the drain.


This is so so true it hurts. There hasn't been a single release in the last 3 years that hasn't been denounced as usless/broken/having terrible rules. Yet everywhere I look there are more people playing 40k with more diverse list than I had seen in the years beforehand.

A cursory look on dakka and you would presume that nobody is enjoying the game anywhere.


Lots of people like bad things. Its not like michael bay transformers movies dont make billions of dollars. Just because people enjoy bad things doesnt mean they are not bad.


I think you're confusing a kids film with explosions, cgi robots and a multi million pound marketing campaign that costs £10 to see, with a hobby that takes many many hours investment and £100s to play.

More people are playing and enjoying 40k. It's rules are more accessible, the models are better and you can generally play a 2k game in 2 hours. That's why it's more popular.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





I’m a human being. And I’m not gonna take it anymore!!!
   
Made in us
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




Sacratomato

 Ishagu wrote:
Nothing about 40k is broken right now.

Not everything is balanced, but nothing is breaking the game.


Except the amount of time it takes. I agree that everything else is within tolerable levels....except time. Most of us just can't sit down for 8 hours for 1 game. (we always play 2v2 etc)

70% of all statistics are made up on the spot by 64% of the people that produce false statistics 54% of the time that they produce them. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





I wouldn’t mind a 2v2 taking many hours as long as there was strategy and no overpowered crap. Like one guy from a unit is barely exposed. So the enemy unleashed a ton of firepower and somehow kills him and 6 others who were behind a bunker.
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






 small_gods wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:

Lots of people like bad things. Its not like michael bay transformers movies dont make billions of dollars. Just because people enjoy bad things doesnt mean they are not bad.


I think you're confusing a kids film with explosions, cgi robots and a multi million pound marketing campaign that costs £10 to see, with a hobby that takes many many hours investment and £100s to play.

More people are playing and enjoying 40k. It's rules are more accessible, the models are better and you can generally play a 2k game in 2 hours. That's why it's more popular.


1) yeah you think those movies are kids films? You mean the sheer volume of violence, the sex jokes, and this...



or this


...is a kids movie like say... Toy Story or Tangled or Spiderman into the Spiderverse? I bet it was a real kids movie moment when Optimus Prime told the Fallen he was going to cut off his face and then did it.


2) Less people are playing 40k then went to go see those movies.

3) Arguably the amount of effort and money you put into 40k is deluding you and others. You don't want your investment to be in a ultimately crap product. But it is. So you scrape out what fun you can have so your time and money hasn't gone to waste and then you gloss over all the bad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/01 20:35:36



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in gb
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine






 Lance845 wrote:
 small_gods wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:

Lots of people like bad things. Its not like michael bay transformers movies dont make billions of dollars. Just because people enjoy bad things doesnt mean they are not bad.


I think you're confusing a kids film with explosions, cgi robots and a multi million pound marketing campaign that costs £10 to see, with a hobby that takes many many hours investment and £100s to play.

More people are playing and enjoying 40k. It's rules are more accessible, the models are better and you can generally play a 2k game in 2 hours. That's why it's more popular.


1) yeah you think those movies are kids films? You mean the sheer volume of violence, the sex jokes, and this...



or this


...is a kids movie like say... Toy Story or Tangled or Spiderman into the Spiderverse? I bet it was a real kids movie moment when Optimus Prime told the Fallen he was going to cut off his face and then did it.


2) Less people are playing 40k then went to go see those movies.

3) Arguably the amount of effort and money you put into 40k is deluding you and others. You don't want your investment to be in a ultimately crap product. But it is. So you scrape out what fun you can have so your time and money hasn't gone to waste and then you gloss over all the bad.


I mean for someone who hates transformers films you certainly know a lot about them. I think I have seen two of them but knew they weren't aimed at a man in his mid 30s so wasn't pissed when it didn't leave me with the same feeling as seeing the matrix for the first time.

I'm not scraping any joy out of 40k, I genuinely enjoy it. I play weekly, I go to at least one tournament a month and I chat to my friends about modelling/painting/army lists most days. If you hate it so much why are you posting 6,000 times on dakka?

Or is it more that you think it was cool when you first liked it and hate that it's become so popular?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/01 20:58:41


 
   
Made in us
Wicked Warp Spider





 small_gods wrote:


I mean for someone who hates transformers films you certainly know a lot about them.

This is a (kinda) subtle ad hominem. He could know the movie because followed the series as a kid, to then witness Optimus being transformed into a GIMME YO FACE psychopath.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
bananathug wrote:
relic shock attack guns

Are they that bad? The basic one is underwhelming, it needed some buff in a way or another.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/01 21:03:54


Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis! 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






 small_gods wrote:
Spoiler:
 Lance845 wrote:
 small_gods wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:

Lots of people like bad things. Its not like michael bay transformers movies dont make billions of dollars. Just because people enjoy bad things doesnt mean they are not bad.


I think you're confusing a kids film with explosions, cgi robots and a multi million pound marketing campaign that costs £10 to see, with a hobby that takes many many hours investment and £100s to play.

More people are playing and enjoying 40k. It's rules are more accessible, the models are better and you can generally play a 2k game in 2 hours. That's why it's more popular.


1) yeah you think those movies are kids films? You mean the sheer volume of violence, the sex jokes, and this...



or this


...is a kids movie like say... Toy Story or Tangled or Spiderman into the Spiderverse? I bet it was a real kids movie moment when Optimus Prime told the Fallen he was going to cut off his face and then did it.


2) Less people are playing 40k then went to go see those movies.

3) Arguably the amount of effort and money you put into 40k is deluding you and others. You don't want your investment to be in a ultimately crap product. But it is. So you scrape out what fun you can have so your time and money hasn't gone to waste and then you gloss over all the bad.


I mean for someone who hates transformers films you certainly know a lot about them. I think I have seen two of them but knew they weren't aimed at a man in his mid 30s so wasn't pissed when it didn't leave me with the same feeling as seeing the matrix for the first time.

I'm not scraping any joy out of 40k, I genuinely enjoy it. I play weekly, I go to at least one tournament a month and I chat to my friends about modelling/painting/army lists most days. If you hate it so much why are you posting 6,000 times on dakka?

Or is it more that you think it was cool when you first liked it and hate that it's become so popular?


Generally speaking if you are going to say something is bad you should know enough about it to be able to back it up. I don't tend to dislike things indiscriminately. I find out about a thing, I find reasons to like/dislike it and then I form my opinions. Someone who hates transformers films should know enough about them to get there. Someone who hates them out of ignorance is just an idiot flapping their jaw.

Maybe instead of just looking at my post number you should click my profile and see where those posts are being made. Top 4 posting areas and number of posts.

20% General Discussion: 1316 posts (1317 with this post)
19% Geek Media: 1239
17% Proposed Rules: 1142
16% You Make Da Call 1053

Thats 4750 of my posts. 72%.

How about instead of making some assumptions about my motivations based on absolutely nothing you do the barest shred of digging to build a clearer picture.

Again, you can absolutely enjoy 40k. Lots of people enjoy bad things. Thats fine. Like what you like.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/01 21:10:54



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Lots of people listen to rap. And rap is absolute trash. Just like many people think 8th edition is awesome. But it’s crap
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






warpedpig wrote:
Lots of people listen to rap. And rap is absolute trash. Just like many people think 8th edition is awesome. But it’s crap


Bad analogy.

Rap is an entire genre of music. I am not saying all miniature wargames are crap. I am saying 40k is. At worst I am saying GW is bad at making them. Pick a rapper and/or a label and you have a better analogy.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

No one cares for someone who’s decided on others behalf what’s good or bad. That’s a silly stance. Do better.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






 JohnnyHell wrote:
No one cares for someone who’s decided on others behalf what’s good or bad. That’s a silly stance. Do better.


You like/dislike enjoy/don't enjoy is entirely subjective. I am not deciding those things for anyone.

Bad design is bad design. Wanna know how I know, factually, that it's bad design? 2 years old and over 95 DOCUMENTS to play an actual game with the current rules. No source of 40k rules in 8th has ever been released that did not need a rules clarification/edit/faq after it's release to fix problems with the initial documents. None. Not once.

The core rules of the game fit on 8 pages and those rules do not work as written.

This isn't opinion. Fact, 8th 40k is a bad game with a lot of a problems.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/01 21:33:26



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Holy Terra

 Grimtuff wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
So, how to say this politely?

Ishagu has a long, long, long, long history of always, always, always, always erring on a favourable view of any action GW takes.

Which is fine, 'cause, you know, that's just, like, their opinion.


IOW he's come into a thread that is clearly critical of 40k (there's no mistaking what's inside this thread) just to be an antagonistic individual.


Lol so being positive is now antagonistic

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 Ishagu wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
So, how to say this politely?

Ishagu has a long, long, long, long history of always, always, always, always erring on a favourable view of any action GW takes.

Which is fine, 'cause, you know, that's just, like, their opinion.


IOW he's come into a thread that is clearly critical of 40k (there's no mistaking what's inside this thread) just to be an antagonistic individual.


Lol so being positive is now antagonistic


In this context, yes. Learn to read the room.


Games Workshop Delenda Est.

Users on ignore- 53.

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Lance845 wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
No one cares for someone who’s decided on others behalf what’s good or bad. That’s a silly stance. Do better.


You like/dislike enjoy/don't enjoy is entirely subjective. I am not deciding those things for anyone.

Bad design is bad design. Wanna know how I know, factually, that it's bad design? 2 years old and over 95 DOCUMENTS to play an actual game with the current rules. No source of 40k rules in 8th has ever been released that did not need a rules clarification/edit/faq after it's release to fix problems with the initial documents. None. Not once.

The core rules of the game fit on 8 pages and those rules do not work as written.

This isn't opinion. Fact, 8th 40k is a bad game with a lot of a problems.
Hear, hear! However due to GW removing some of the FAQs (specifically the Stepping into a New Edition and the CA17 FAQ no longer having any relevant info in it post CA18) we're actually down to 94 documents.

40k at this point needs ANOTHER reboot from the ground up but with competent, technical writers at the helm.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/07/01 21:46:50


 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
No one cares for someone who’s decided on others behalf what’s good or bad. That’s a silly stance. Do better.


You like/dislike enjoy/don't enjoy is entirely subjective. I am not deciding those things for anyone.

Bad design is bad design. Wanna know how I know, factually, that it's bad design? 2 years old and over 95 DOCUMENTS to play an actual game with the current rules. No source of 40k rules in 8th has ever been released that did not need a rules clarification/edit/faq after it's release to fix problems with the initial documents. None. Not once.

The core rules of the game fit on 8 pages and those rules do not work as written.

This isn't opinion. Fact, 8th 40k is a bad game with a lot of a problems.
Hear, hear! However due to GW removing some of the FAQs (specifically the Stepping into a New Edition and the CA17 FAQ no longer having any relevant info in it post CA18) we're actually down to 94 documents.

40k at this point needs ANOTHER reboot from the ground up but with competent, technical writers at the helm.


Yeah but it will be +6 by the end of the year. We will soon have chaos knights and their inevitable FAQ/errata, sisters of battle and THEIR faq/errata, and then CA 2019 and IT'S FAQ/errata. So 100 documents by years end.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Not always in the same boat with the BaconCatBug, but this i agree on.

To say the growth of rule documents has been Tumor alike has become a valid analogy. And for that to happen imo shows how absurd gw 's gotten.

Edit: lance didn't they state 3 dexes? So wouldn't that be 102 documents?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/01 21:54:42


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






Yeah probably. Whats 2 more? lol


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Lance845 wrote:
Yeah probably. Whats 2 more? lol

Inevitable faq +dex....
See SW codex

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Not Online!!! wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Yeah probably. Whats 2 more? lol

Inevitable faq +dex....
See SW codex
Peak GW: Needing to errata their books before they even go on sale.
   
Made in gb
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine






 Lance845 wrote:

Again, you can absolutely enjoy 40k. Lots of people enjoy bad things. Thats fine. Like what you like.


Gee thanks I feel validated now.

But in all seriousness why are you wasting so much time and energy telling people that '40k is bad'? It feels like it would be more enjoyable and mentally healthy to talk about things you like. For instance I'm not spending my time on harry potter forums bitching about how much I dislike them and anyone who enjoys them is 'an idiot, flapping their jaw'.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/01 23:06:07


 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






warpedpig wrote:
What’s the solution to igougo

Initiative based activation. Pulling units out of a bag to determine when they act. or something like in apoc where damage is inflicted at the end of the turn.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
No one cares for someone who’s decided on others behalf what’s good or bad. That’s a silly stance. Do better.


You like/dislike enjoy/don't enjoy is entirely subjective. I am not deciding those things for anyone.

Bad design is bad design. Wanna know how I know, factually, that it's bad design? 2 years old and over 95 DOCUMENTS to play an actual game with the current rules. No source of 40k rules in 8th has ever been released that did not need a rules clarification/edit/faq after it's release to fix problems with the initial documents. None. Not once.

The core rules of the game fit on 8 pages and those rules do not work as written.

This isn't opinion. Fact, 8th 40k is a bad game with a lot of a problems.
Hear, hear! However due to GW removing some of the FAQs (specifically the Stepping into a New Edition and the CA17 FAQ no longer having any relevant info in it post CA18) we're actually down to 94 documents.

40k at this point needs ANOTHER reboot from the ground up but with competent, technical writers at the helm.


Better writing would be nice I agree. Isn't the 95 documents of FAQ pretty similar to the 233 page comprehensive rules document that MtG has though? Is it really that big a deal?

Especially considering the alternative is broken rules staying broken.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/01 23:30:27


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