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Yeah. Most of our infantry isn't top-tier, but it is pretty good overall. I think part of the issue is that many of our units feel like they have trouble working as intended. Avengers are pretty cool (and even cooler with the new rules), but they can't walk around outside of a transport without dying. So you pay three times the unit's cost to buy them a wave serpent. But then it feels like you're really investing in a serpent (which is a good unit that largely outperforms the avengers) making the avengers themselves feel like an afterthought. And the turn after your avengers leave the serpent, they're still pretty prone to dying. This compared to something like intercessors who are durable enough to maybe stick around for a while regardless of whether or not you give them a transport.

Storm guardians have the same issue but even moreso and are generally taken as a cheap screen/troop tax. We've seen storm guardians in tournament lists, but how often do they have special weapons? Guardian defenders work as blobs, but the 10 man min squad size makes them too expensive to be the efficient source of heavy weapons they're meant to be (as discussed throughout this thread).

It's really about delivery system. When I play my drukhari, the troops are cheap and able to fire out of their transports, so it feels like they contribute throughout the game. My tactical marines can sprinkle some heavy weapon shots across the table and some bolter shots to mid-field, and in cover they maybe even manage to stick around for a turn or two if I've given my opponent more pressing targets. My guardsmen and daemonettes are cheap enough to feel expendable. But my asuryani? With the exception of rangers (whose long range and durability means they can contribute reliably), my trooops just don't feel like they stick around long enough to do much.

I'm more convinced now that eldar sounds always be able to make an assualt move whether charging or not.

This reflects their fire and fade abilities much better than extra rules that allow them to run suicidally close in order to hit and then sit there waiting to die.

It's was one of the best parts of the battlefleet gothic Eldar rules

Not Online!!! wrote:

The regular Tac squad also costs alot more.

Umm, Guardians cost more per squad (but not per model).
And the Aspects are in the same price range as Marines.

I happen to think Guardians, DAs, and Marines are all on the same level balance-wise, but you should really look up the numbers if you think Tacs cost more than Aspects (or Guardians on a per-squad basis).

There's a 3 pt difference between a guardian and a tac.. Let me repeat 3..

Guardian needs a good advance roll to even threaten the other..MArines can just stand still and pump out 2 shots a piece at 24" while the guardians are running at them just to have a chance to hurt them..
Marines gets an extra point of toughness and 2 points of armour save..

Marines gets an extra point of strength and extra attack

Bare bones 80pts of tacs destroys 80pts of guardians with the new rules.

The marines can get extra AP through doctrine for free..Not to mention all of the various rules combos like exploding 6's.. etc.
Its not even a contest. Its a massacre.

Weren't Guardians 7? If not they definitely need that point cut.

Guardians are 8, storm guardians are 6(7 before CA).

Guardians minimum squad is 10 so its 80 points minimum. With platform you will always take that's at least 105 points..

And the only reason you'd generally take storm guardians is to fill the troop tax slot as they are minimum size 8 so 48 points sink.

Hellebore wrote:
I'm more convinced now that eldar sounds always be able to make an assualt move whether charging or not.

This reflects their fire and fade abilities much better than extra rules that allow them to run suicidally close in order to hit and then sit there waiting to die.

It's was one of the best parts of the battlefleet gothic Eldar rules

We sort of had that between battle focus and jetbikes assault moves. Everything except our vehicles could move behind a wall after taking their shots. That was very fluffy but also a huge pain for our opponents to play against. As long as you didn't roll poorly, you could pretty reliably reposition your entire gunline such that your opponent couldn't fire a single shot in retaliation.

I kind of wonder about changing Battle Focus to be a -1 to hit penalty to attacks targeting eldar units that advanced in their previous movement phase. Or maybe have it be a reactionary thing that you use when you're targeted by enemy shooting (like 7e jink). Basically, you'd be trading some of your own pointy-eared offense in exchange for more durability. It would benefit all eldar untis rather than just short-ranged shooty units and banshees, it would represent the acrobatic evasion of craftworlders with something other than a 2CP strat, and it would emphasize the craftworlder concern for their warriors' well-being when contrasted with the more offense-focused drukhari.

 Argive wrote:
Guardians are 8, storm guardians are 6(7 before CA).

Guardians minimum squad is 10 so its 80 points minimum. With platform you will always take that's at least 105 points..

And the only reason you'd generally take storm guardians is to fill the troop tax slot as they are minimum size 8 so 48 points sink.

Just make Guardians 7 points and they'd make slightly more sense. Storm Guardians just need to be removed entirely because the role they fill is stupid and the fluff is stupid.

Hellebore wrote:
I'm more convinced now that eldar sounds always be able to make an assualt move whether charging or not.

This reflects their fire and fade abilities much better than extra rules that allow them to run suicidally close in order to hit and then sit there waiting to die.

It's was one of the best parts of the battlefleet gothic Eldar rules

In Epic they’re very good at activating twice in a row and that makes them very fleet compared to everything else, and move shoot move is - crude simulation of that for 28mm. I can’t believe any more they should have move shoot move in 40k though because the number of times you pick up and put down models is one of the biggest contributions to turn length and I don’t think the benefit outweighs the loss in that case.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Guardians are 8, storm guardians are 6(7 before CA).

Guardians minimum squad is 10 so its 80 points minimum. With platform you will always take that's at least 105 points..

And the only reason you'd generally take storm guardians is to fill the troop tax slot as they are minimum size 8 so 48 points sink.

Just make Guardians 7 points and they'd make slightly more sense. Storm Guardians just need to be removed entirely because the role they fill is stupid and the fluff is stupid.

Meh. I like that storm guardians exist. In previous editions, being able to take a warlock "sergeant" with them meant they could either be mildly threatening to vehicles (something our other troops couldn't do) or else put down a bunch of flamer templates (flamer, flamer, and the destructor psychic power). Currently, fusion guns are meh because vehicles are intentionally more survivable against one or two guns, and flamers are weaker than in the past for various reasons. In an edition where meltas and flamers are good, storm guardians are potentially pretty good.

Fluff-wise, a squad with the tools to fill hallways with fire, blast through sealed doors and engage the enemy in melee doesn't seem all that unreasonable. Even a shuriken pistol, sort of the alien equivalent of a fully automatic pistol, kind of makes sense if you picture it being used in Zone Mortalis type situations. Storm Guardians get a lot of hate, but I wouldn't mind a new guardian kit with a sprue full of chain swords and special weapons.

That said, I still think both defenders and storm guardians would be helped a lot by lowering their minimum squad size to 5. If you take them without upgrades, you have cheap troops to fill out batallions. If you give them special weapons or heavy weapon platforms, you end up paying a reasonable amount for the firepower you get and can squeeze multiple stormie squads into a serpent.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Guardians are 8, storm guardians are 6(7 before CA).

Guardians minimum squad is 10 so its 80 points minimum. With platform you will always take that's at least 105 points..

And the only reason you'd generally take storm guardians is to fill the troop tax slot as they are minimum size 8 so 48 points sink.

Just make Guardians 7 points and they'd make slightly more sense. Storm Guardians just need to be removed entirely because the role they fill is stupid and the fluff is stupid.

Meh. I like that storm guardians exist. In previous editions, being able to take a warlock "sergeant" with them meant they could either be mildly threatening to vehicles (something our other troops couldn't do) or else put down a bunch of flamer templates (flamer, flamer, and the destructor psychic power). Currently, fusion guns are meh because vehicles are intentionally more survivable against one or two guns, and flamers are weaker than in the past for various reasons. In an edition where meltas and flamers are good, storm guardians are potentially pretty good.

Fluff-wise, a squad with the tools to fill hallways with fire, blast through sealed doors and engage the enemy in melee doesn't seem all that unreasonable. Even a shuriken pistol, sort of the alien equivalent of a fully automatic pistol, kind of makes sense if you picture it being used in Zone Mortalis type situations. Storm Guardians get a lot of hate, but I wouldn't mind a new guardian kit with a sprue full of chain swords and special weapons.

That said, I still think both defenders and storm guardians would be helped a lot by lowering their minimum squad size to 5. If you take them without upgrades, you have cheap troops to fill out batallions. If you give them special weapons or heavy weapon platforms, you end up paying a reasonable amount for the firepower you get and can squeeze multiple stormie squads into a serpent.

Or drop the heavy platform requirement to eveyr 3 models. Could potentially get some nice little heavy platform overwtch teams in cover which would be fluffy..

I have nothing against storm guardians. I like them concept and normal guardians but they are just too darn expensive. (Along with everything else in our army) Fielding a dual battalion in term of HQ/Troop tax really stings.. The PLs are too expensive to be viable so you end up with bunch of farseers maybe 1 autarch and a warlock in every list. The new DA exarch powers are somewhat interesting as pumping out 4 -3 ap shots is nice. DOwnside is you loose the invuln which is what I really liked about taking small DA squads. If you get lucky you can tank a lot of shooting on the exarchs invuln. Now the other 4 dudes are the albeiative wounds for that 4x -3 platform lol. The new rules are really cool and don't feel cheesey. some drawbacks etc, Unlike marines where its all buffs and zero drawback.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Guardians are 8, storm guardians are 6(7 before CA).

Guardians minimum squad is 10 so its 80 points minimum. With platform you will always take that's at least 105 points..

And the only reason you'd generally take storm guardians is to fill the troop tax slot as they are minimum size 8 so 48 points sink.

Just make Guardians 7 points and they'd make slightly more sense. Storm Guardians just need to be removed entirely because the role they fill is stupid and the fluff is stupid.

Meh. I like that storm guardians exist. In previous editions, being able to take a warlock "sergeant" with them meant they could either be mildly threatening to vehicles (something our other troops couldn't do) or else put down a bunch of flamer templates (flamer, flamer, and the destructor psychic power). Currently, fusion guns are meh because vehicles are intentionally more survivable against one or two guns, and flamers are weaker than in the past for various reasons. In an edition where meltas and flamers are good, storm guardians are potentially pretty good.

Fluff-wise, a squad with the tools to fill hallways with fire, blast through sealed doors and engage the enemy in melee doesn't seem all that unreasonable. Even a shuriken pistol, sort of the alien equivalent of a fully automatic pistol, kind of makes sense if you picture it being used in Zone Mortalis type situations. Storm Guardians get a lot of hate, but I wouldn't mind a new guardian kit with a sprue full of chain swords and special weapons.

That said, I still think both defenders and storm guardians would be helped a lot by lowering their minimum squad size to 5. If you take them without upgrades, you have cheap troops to fill out batallions. If you give them special weapons or heavy weapon platforms, you end up paying a reasonable amount for the firepower you get and can squeeze multiple stormie squads into a serpent.

Oh please, nobody was scared of their ability to tickle vehicles. They were passed over all the time for good reason! They don't fulfill a role that makes sense. S3 attacks trying to tackle a vehicle with maybe a couple of Melta Guns? How cheap can you make that to become viable when they're already likely as cheap as they can get?

I still can't believe people would defend the unit entry as though they would actually miss it!

I think it's more that xenos armies have so little support, stripping units out is just a slap in the face, however they might suck.


IMO they need to redo guardians as a dual kit with corsairs, which could make them a triple kit and also make storm guardians.

But I would also make them more varied with lots of special weapons rather than just 2.

Makes them veteran guardians rather than just another type of guardian.

Hellebore wrote:
I think it's more that xenos armies have so little support, stripping units out is just a slap in the face, however they might suck.


IMO they need to redo guardians as a dual kit with corsairs, which could make them a triple kit and also make storm guardians.

But I would also make them more varied with lots of special weapons rather than just 2.

Makes them veteran guardians rather than just another type of guardian.

I would love something like corsair/Guardian kit.

I'd love to see a much more modular Guardian kit though. 5-20 (or 10-20 or 8-24 or whatever) bodies.
-Each guy can take Pistol+CCW, Catapult, or Lasblaster, or Long Rifle (at appropriate points)
-For each 5 (or 8 or 10) models, you may take either a Weapons Platform or up to 2 Specials
-May take Camo Cloaks

This gives you your Corsair squads, your Storm Guardians, your Guardians, and your Rangers. And allows a lot more customization/options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Guardians are 8, storm guardians are 6(7 before CA).

Guardians minimum squad is 10 so its 80 points minimum. With platform you will always take that's at least 105 points..

And the only reason you'd generally take storm guardians is to fill the troop tax slot as they are minimum size 8 so 48 points sink.

Just make Guardians 7 points and they'd make slightly more sense. Storm Guardians just need to be removed entirely because the role they fill is stupid and the fluff is stupid.

Meh. I like that storm guardians exist. In previous editions, being able to take a warlock "sergeant" with them meant they could either be mildly threatening to vehicles (something our other troops couldn't do) or else put down a bunch of flamer templates (flamer, flamer, and the destructor psychic power). Currently, fusion guns are meh because vehicles are intentionally more survivable against one or two guns, and flamers are weaker than in the past for various reasons. In an edition where meltas and flamers are good, storm guardians are potentially pretty good.

Fluff-wise, a squad with the tools to fill hallways with fire, blast through sealed doors and engage the enemy in melee doesn't seem all that unreasonable. Even a shuriken pistol, sort of the alien equivalent of a fully automatic pistol, kind of makes sense if you picture it being used in Zone Mortalis type situations. Storm Guardians get a lot of hate, but I wouldn't mind a new guardian kit with a sprue full of chain swords and special weapons.

That said, I still think both defenders and storm guardians would be helped a lot by lowering their minimum squad size to 5. If you take them without upgrades, you have cheap troops to fill out batallions. If you give them special weapons or heavy weapon platforms, you end up paying a reasonable amount for the firepower you get and can squeeze multiple stormie squads into a serpent.

Oh please, nobody was scared of their ability to tickle vehicles. They were passed over all the time for good reason! They don't fulfill a role that makes sense. S3 attacks trying to tackle a vehicle with maybe a couple of Melta Guns? How cheap can you make that to become viable when they're already likely as cheap as they can get?

I still can't believe people would defend the unit entry as though they would actually miss it!

So you're saying Tac Marines - and the rest of the Marine line - should have been removed from the Marine book because they weren't good and didn't fuflifll a role? And the Necron codex?

That sounds like a remarkably bad idea.

Bharring wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
I think it's more that xenos armies have so little support, stripping units out is just a slap in the face, however they might suck.


IMO they need to redo guardians as a dual kit with corsairs, which could make them a triple kit and also make storm guardians.

But I would also make them more varied with lots of special weapons rather than just 2.

Makes them veteran guardians rather than just another type of guardian.

I would love something like corsair/Guardian kit.

I'd love to see a much more modular Guardian kit though. 5-20 (or 10-20 or 8-24 or whatever) bodies.
-Each guy can take Pistol+CCW, Catapult, or Lasblaster, or Long Rifle (at appropriate points)
-For each 5 (or 8 or 10) models, you may take either a Weapons Platform or up to 2 Specials
-May take Camo Cloaks

This gives you your Corsair squads, your Storm Guardians, your Guardians, and your Rangers. And allows a lot more customization/options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Guardians are 8, storm guardians are 6(7 before CA).

Guardians minimum squad is 10 so its 80 points minimum. With platform you will always take that's at least 105 points..

And the only reason you'd generally take storm guardians is to fill the troop tax slot as they are minimum size 8 so 48 points sink.

Just make Guardians 7 points and they'd make slightly more sense. Storm Guardians just need to be removed entirely because the role they fill is stupid and the fluff is stupid.

Meh. I like that storm guardians exist. In previous editions, being able to take a warlock "sergeant" with them meant they could either be mildly threatening to vehicles (something our other troops couldn't do) or else put down a bunch of flamer templates (flamer, flamer, and the destructor psychic power). Currently, fusion guns are meh because vehicles are intentionally more survivable against one or two guns, and flamers are weaker than in the past for various reasons. In an edition where meltas and flamers are good, storm guardians are potentially pretty good.

Fluff-wise, a squad with the tools to fill hallways with fire, blast through sealed doors and engage the enemy in melee doesn't seem all that unreasonable. Even a shuriken pistol, sort of the alien equivalent of a fully automatic pistol, kind of makes sense if you picture it being used in Zone Mortalis type situations. Storm Guardians get a lot of hate, but I wouldn't mind a new guardian kit with a sprue full of chain swords and special weapons.

That said, I still think both defenders and storm guardians would be helped a lot by lowering their minimum squad size to 5. If you take them without upgrades, you have cheap troops to fill out batallions. If you give them special weapons or heavy weapon platforms, you end up paying a reasonable amount for the firepower you get and can squeeze multiple stormie squads into a serpent.

Oh please, nobody was scared of their ability to tickle vehicles. They were passed over all the time for good reason! They don't fulfill a role that makes sense. S3 attacks trying to tackle a vehicle with maybe a couple of Melta Guns? How cheap can you make that to become viable when they're already likely as cheap as they can get?

I still can't believe people would defend the unit entry as though they would actually miss it!

So you're saying Tac Marines - and the rest of the Marine line - should have been removed from the Marine book because they weren't good and didn't fuflifll a role? And the Necron codex?

That sounds like a remarkably bad idea.

I've already discussed that Tactical Marines need a total rework as much as some of you want to keep them at the crummy 1 Special and 1 Heavy. Also there would NEVER be a point to Storm Guardians existing. Imperial Guard can already do melee Infantry squads better than Storm Guardians with a very small amount of effort, and nobody uses them. Why would anyone load up on a troop choice with minimal special weapon count, a piddly amount of attacks, AND those attacks are S3 to boot.

At least Gaunts are super fast.

Tactical marines are only worth it to spam bolters.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Tactical marines are only worth it to spam bolters.

And at that point, you might as well go Intercessors for the delicious Assault Bolt Rifles.

Doesn't removing Marines, Storm Guardians, and the whole Necron, AdMech, and GK books seem like hateful overkill, though?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Oh please, nobody was scared of their ability to tickle vehicles. They were passed over all the time for good reason! They don't fulfill a role that makes sense. S3 attacks trying to tackle a vehicle with maybe a couple of Melta Guns? How cheap can you make that to become viable when they're already likely as cheap as they can get?

I still can't believe people would defend the unit entry as though they would actually miss it!

They were often passed over because other units were cheaper or could fit in a falcon (back when those were considered durable). Lowering their squad size to 5 would help with both of those issues. At 5 bodies minimum, the squad overall gets cheaper without lowering the cost of individual models. You'd be able to fit most of a batallion's troops into a single wave serpent, and you'd be able to have 4 fusion guns hop out of said wave serpent.

Despite waving swords around, they're not a melee unit. They're "guardians with special weapons instead of heavy weapons." In previous editions, 3 anti tank shots (2 fusion and a singing spear) was enough to stun or kill a vehicle with a little luck. Even if you didn't finish the job, you were making it that much easier for another gun in your army to do so. And 2 flame templates plus a strength 5 flame template (old destructor) was nothing to sneeze at.

Even if they're not top tier, I'd totally field a small, cheap, CP-generating squad that can toss out a couple anti tank shots. It would give me a unit that, with a little luck, could sucker punch a much more valuable enemy unit. Especially now that we have access to salamander rerolls. I'd view that as a welcome addition to our lineup of troops that mostly only shoots strength 4 guns. It's just that they're awkward to put in a wave serpent at the moment. That, and maybe slightly too big an investment overall.

So historically, I've made use of them, and it would be extremely simple to make them much more useful at present by simply changing the squad size. I don't see any call to rip their page out of the codex and burn it. Sorry you're mad that a unit other people like isn't to your taste, I guess. Have you considered not buying and fielding them if you personally don't like them?

kind of makes me wish we had cheaper wraith guard and phoenix lords with natural invulnerable saves...

But instead we have amazing psychic powers that have to work in tandem or your whole list just dies.

Then we have avenger catapualts which honestly should have a natural -1 ap... but sadly our units are super squishy. You need large amounts of transports which sucks, because I hate using tanks, but its the only way to keep your army alive. That and our heavy walker just dies like a coward to most heavies and dies in droves versus knight titans.

My army has alot of aspect warriors but unforunately the aspect warriors are too costly... don't do enough for their points, or their uses are limited, namely Striking Scorpions, and even with the 'buffs' Howling banshees are still subpar they cost 13pts... 13pts 1pts more than a space marine and have a pistol and a power weapon.... they can't be overwatched but they will never reach an entrenched unit especially now with the fact that get no way to in any meaningful way kill space marines or MEQ's. Striking scorpions are okayish? But they have no ap on their chainswords which is kind of a bummer considering they used to have -1 ap on base in previous editions.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Oh please, nobody was scared of their ability to tickle vehicles. They were passed over all the time for good reason! They don't fulfill a role that makes sense. S3 attacks trying to tackle a vehicle with maybe a couple of Melta Guns? How cheap can you make that to become viable when they're already likely as cheap as they can get?

I still can't believe people would defend the unit entry as though they would actually miss it!

They were often passed over because other units were cheaper or could fit in a falcon (back when those were considered durable). Lowering their squad size to 5 would help with both of those issues. At 5 bodies minimum, the squad overall gets cheaper without lowering the cost of individual models. You'd be able to fit most of a batallion's troops into a single wave serpent, and you'd be able to have 4 fusion guns hop out of said wave serpent.

Despite waving swords around, they're not a melee unit. They're "guardians with special weapons instead of heavy weapons." In previous editions, 3 anti tank shots (2 fusion and a singing spear) was enough to stun or kill a vehicle with a little luck. Even if you didn't finish the job, you were making it that much easier for another gun in your army to do so. And 2 flame templates plus a strength 5 flame template (old destructor) was nothing to sneeze at.

Even if they're not top tier, I'd totally field a small, cheap, CP-generating squad that can toss out a couple anti tank shots. It would give me a unit that, with a little luck, could sucker punch a much more valuable enemy unit. Especially now that we have access to salamander rerolls. I'd view that as a welcome addition to our lineup of troops that mostly only shoots strength 4 guns. It's just that they're awkward to put in a wave serpent at the moment. That, and maybe slightly too big an investment overall.

So historically, I've made use of them, and it would be extremely simple to make them much more useful at present by simply changing the squad size. I don't see any call to rip their page out of the codex and burn it. Sorry you're mad that a unit other people like isn't to your taste, I guess. Have you considered not buying and fielding them if you personally don't like them?

See, your fix is nothing but a way to generate cheaper CP for the army, with you even admitting as much. If that doesn't show that there's no purpose to the unit, what will?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Doesn't removing Marines, Storm Guardians, and the whole Necron, AdMech, and GK books seem like hateful overkill, though?

I love you go for Strawmans.

I showed why the Storm Guardian entry is pointless and needs to go. You've done nothing to defend your position besides "muh options". Nobody was using them as an option and their fluff is garbage to boot!

So do something better to defend the unit. Please. Anything but the absolutely bad argument you just used.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Doesn't removing Marines, Storm Guardians, and the whole Necron, AdMech, and GK books seem like hateful overkill, though?

I love you go for Strawmans.

Your argument is that Storm Guardians had no purpose. And therefore should be removed. You agreed that Marines had no purpose.

I'm suggesting that, if the same standard would apply, the decision to remove Storm Guardians should also have decided to remove Marines.

That's not a strawman, that's demonstrating how your view of how things should work would be bad.

I showed why the Storm Guardian entry is pointless and needs to go.

You stated, but did not show. You suggested reasons why it might be pointless, based on current rules. You certainly didn't show that it would always be pointless. That was the point of the above: being pointless right now doesn't mean it should be removed from the game.

You've done nothing to defend your position besides "muh options".

Well, seeing as my entire point was predicated on *everyone else's* options, reducing it to "muh options" is more wrong than a blind monkey should have been, typing randomly.

I've pointed out that not having good rules at one point in time does not mean they cannot have a role ever. That's not nearly the same.

Nobody was using them as an option

Nobody you care about. That's not the same as nobody. The set of all people is a lot larger than "you".

and their fluff is garbage to boot!

That's certainly debatable. It's not like we're talking "More Marine-y Marines", or "Khorne Zerkers so roided out on blood that they can't do anything but scream and kill - who sneak up on unsuspecting enemies quietly and deliberately!" or "This brilliant evil robot alien who's super advanced with tech the other races could only dream of thinks he's a living, breathing person".

So do something better to defend the unit. Please. Anything but the absolutely bad argument you just used.

I have a hard time believing "CWE never, ever, under any circumstances, deploys specialists".

However, "I think that fluff makes sense, so leave it be" isn't the counter to your "I think it's stupid, and therefore nobody should be allowed to take it". The proper counter to that term is "You're not everybody. Stop demanding we live by your rules. Stop pretending we are not allowed to think/care differently than you. Stop trying to realign everything in our orbit to fit your whims."

The reason it seems like a straw man is that you're not grasping the concept that you're not the end-all be-all of fact and opinion. Your beliefs aren't The Sacred Word. We aren't evil subhuman heathens for disagreeing with you.

Bharring wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Doesn't removing Marines, Storm Guardians, and the whole Necron, AdMech, and GK books seem like hateful overkill, though?

I love you go for Strawmans.

Your argument is that Storm Guardians had no purpose. And therefore should be removed. You agreed that Marines had no purpose.

I'm suggesting that, if the same standard would apply, the decision to remove Storm Guardians should also have decided to remove Marines.

That's not a strawman, that's demonstrating how your view of how things should work would be bad.

I showed why the Storm Guardian entry is pointless and needs to go.

You stated, but did not show. You suggested reasons why it might be pointless, based on current rules. You certainly didn't show that it would always be pointless. That was the point of the above: being pointless right now doesn't mean it should be removed from the game.

You've done nothing to defend your position besides "muh options".

Well, seeing as my entire point was predicated on *everyone else's* options, reducing it to "muh options" is more wrong than a blind monkey should have been, typing randomly.

I've pointed out that not having good rules at one point in time does not mean they cannot have a role ever. That's not nearly the same.

Nobody was using them as an option

Nobody you care about. That's not the same as nobody. The set of all people is a lot larger than "you".

and their fluff is garbage to boot!

That's certainly debatable. It's not like we're talking "More Marine-y Marines", or "Khorne Zerkers so roided out on blood that they can't do anything but scream and kill - who sneak up on unsuspecting enemies quietly and deliberately!" or "This brilliant evil robot alien who's super advanced with tech the other races could only dream of thinks he's a living, breathing person".

So do something better to defend the unit. Please. Anything but the absolutely bad argument you just used.

I have a hard time believing "CWE never, ever, under any circumstances, deploys specialists".

However, "I think that fluff makes sense, so leave it be" isn't the counter to your "I think it's stupid, and therefore nobody should be allowed to take it". The proper counter to that term is "You're not everybody. Stop demanding we live by your rules. Stop pretending we are not allowed to think/care differently than you. Stop trying to realign everything in our orbit to fit your whims."

The reason it seems like a straw man is that you're not grasping the concept that you're not the end-all be-all of fact and opinion. Your beliefs aren't The Sacred Word. We aren't evil subhuman heathens for disagreeing with you.

1. Storm Guardians serve no purpose, they don't have a role that is necessary for the army, and the fluff is stupid (like you can really debate otherwise). That's actually three points for them to be deleted. Remember, somebody had a suggestion to just make them cheaper for better CP generation and admitted as much. At least Tactical Marines can just spam Bolt shots as Ultramarines.
2. Yes I did state how they were pointless. They're an expensive model with poor as hell melee stats to the point Fire Warriors wouldn't be afraid of them, bad special weapon saturation, and are slow. They're useless, period, and you have yet to show there's a point to the unit existing. Next.
3. Whataboutisms aren't the same as defending their fluff. For Berserker Marines being quiet and everything until close to the enemy, Carcharodons Chapter does that. So there you go.
Dying race giving Catapults is already pushing it for regular Guardians, but, as unrealistic as 40k is supposed to be, Storm Guardians REALLY don't make sense at all.
4. Defending pointless options and units just because you can really does mean you're on the lower end of being able to balance and discuss balance, sorry. I don't think we should consider the opinion of someone that thinks Storm Guardians or Master of Executioners have a purpose to be filled, or think we NEED the three separate Terminator entries for the different armors for the sake of creating unit entries because "muh options".

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Tactical marines are only worth it to spam bolters.

And at that point, you might as well go Intercessors for the delicious Assault Bolt Rifles.

Yeah - true. Same firepower per point while being more mobile and more durable too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Doesn't removing Marines, Storm Guardians, and the whole Necron, AdMech, and GK books seem like hateful overkill, though?

I love you go for Strawmans.

Your argument is that Storm Guardians had no purpose. And therefore should be removed. You agreed that Marines had no purpose.

I'm suggesting that, if the same standard would apply, the decision to remove Storm Guardians should also have decided to remove Marines.

That's not a strawman, that's demonstrating how your view of how things should work would be bad.

I showed why the Storm Guardian entry is pointless and needs to go.

You stated, but did not show. You suggested reasons why it might be pointless, based on current rules. You certainly didn't show that it would always be pointless. That was the point of the above: being pointless right now doesn't mean it should be removed from the game.

You've done nothing to defend your position besides "muh options".

Well, seeing as my entire point was predicated on *everyone else's* options, reducing it to "muh options" is more wrong than a blind monkey should have been, typing randomly.

I've pointed out that not having good rules at one point in time does not mean they cannot have a role ever. That's not nearly the same.

Nobody was using them as an option

Nobody you care about. That's not the same as nobody. The set of all people is a lot larger than "you".

and their fluff is garbage to boot!

That's certainly debatable. It's not like we're talking "More Marine-y Marines", or "Khorne Zerkers so roided out on blood that they can't do anything but scream and kill - who sneak up on unsuspecting enemies quietly and deliberately!" or "This brilliant evil robot alien who's super advanced with tech the other races could only dream of thinks he's a living, breathing person".

So do something better to defend the unit. Please. Anything but the absolutely bad argument you just used.

I have a hard time believing "CWE never, ever, under any circumstances, deploys specialists".

However, "I think that fluff makes sense, so leave it be" isn't the counter to your "I think it's stupid, and therefore nobody should be allowed to take it". The proper counter to that term is "You're not everybody. Stop demanding we live by your rules. Stop pretending we are not allowed to think/care differently than you. Stop trying to realign everything in our orbit to fit your whims."

The reason it seems like a straw man is that you're not grasping the concept that you're not the end-all be-all of fact and opinion. Your beliefs aren't The Sacred Word. We aren't evil subhuman heathens for disagreeing with you.

1. Storm Guardians serve no purpose, they don't have a role that is necessary for the army, and the fluff is stupid (like you can really debate otherwise). That's actually three points for them to be deleted.

It's actually only one in two parts - with #1 and #3 being redundant with #2.

Remember, somebody had a suggestion to just make them cheaper for better CP generation and admitted as much.

That doesn't really say much either way.

At least Tactical Marines can just spam Bolt shots as Ultramarines.

Maybe they do that now. But there have been points in time they didn't even do that.

2. [More redundancy]
3. Whataboutisms aren't the same as defending their fluff. For Berserker Marines being quiet and everything until close to the enemy, Carcharodons Chapter does that. So there you go.

Your argument is "If $thing has no [meta-relevant purpose at some point in time balance-wise] then [they should be removed]" is your claim, with $thing being Storm Guardians. Evaluating the argument where $thing is Space Marines or the entire Necron book isn't whataboutism - it's proof by contradiction. Not evidence. Not refutation. Proof that the argument is stupid. Whataboutism is "Something else is just as bad" - this proof isn't making a relative value judgment, it's demonstrating the flaw in the logic. Read up more on the difference between such proofs and whataboutisms, because it's more than just a buzz word for trumping arguments.

Dying race giving Catapults is already pushing it for regular Guardians, but, as unrealistic as 40k is supposed to be, Storm Guardians REALLY don't make sense at all.

You really don't get the whole "Desperate, we're boned, last stand" concept, do you?

4. Defending pointless options and units just because you can really does mean you're on the lower end of being able to balance and discuss balance, sorry. I don't think we should consider the opinion of someone that thinks Storm Guardians or Master of Executioners have a purpose to be filled, or think we NEED the three separate Terminator entries for the different armors for the sake of creating unit entries because "muh options".

In other words, anyone who disagrees with you is wrong, and therefore should be ignored? Once again, any deviance from your Holy Truth marks the poster as a nonperson?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:


They were often passed over because other units were cheaper or could fit in a falcon (back when those were considered durable). Lowering their squad size to 5 would help with both of those issues. At 5 bodies minimum, the squad overall gets cheaper without lowering the cost of individual models. You'd be able to fit most of a batallion's troops into a single wave serpent, and you'd be able to have 4 fusion guns hop out of said wave serpent.

Despite waving swords around, they're not a melee unit. They're "guardians with special weapons instead of heavy weapons." In previous editions, 3 anti tank shots (2 fusion and a singing spear) was enough to stun or kill a vehicle with a little luck. Even if you didn't finish the job, you were making it that much easier for another gun in your army to do so. And 2 flame templates plus a strength 5 flame template (old destructor) was nothing to sneeze at.

Even if they're not top tier, I'd totally field a small, cheap, CP-generating squad that can toss out a couple anti tank shots. It would give me a unit that, with a little luck, could sucker punch a much more valuable enemy unit. Especially now that we have access to salamander rerolls. I'd view that as a welcome addition to our lineup of troops that mostly only shoots strength 4 guns. It's just that they're awkward to put in a wave serpent at the moment. That, and maybe slightly too big an investment overall.

So historically, I've made use of them, and it would be extremely simple to make them much more useful at present by simply changing the squad size. I don't see any call to rip their page out of the codex and burn it. Sorry you're mad that a unit other people like isn't to your taste, I guess. Have you considered not buying and fielding them if you personally don't like them?

See, your fix is nothing but a way to generate cheaper CP for the army, with you even admitting as much. If that doesn't show that there's no purpose to the unit, what will?

Um. I feel like you maybe didn't read the several paragraphs of text in that post you quoted in which I talk about how I like the idea of a cheap unit that can fling out a couple of anti-tank shots. A fusion gun toting troop choice is interestingly distinctive from the other troop choices. If we could make the squad smaller to fit in a wave serpent alongside another 5 man squad, they'd be less of an overall investment (making their anti tank shots more cost efficient), and they'd be easier to justify taking because you could still fit a second unit in one of our expensive serpents.

Being able to generate CP a bit more cheaply is just one of several benefits I see to lowering their minimum squad size.

I showed why the Storm Guardian entry is pointless and needs to go.

Did you? As I understand it, your argument for why they should be removed as an option boils down to:
1. They weren't good in the past.
2. They aren't competitive in the current meta.
3. You feel that they don't occupy a niche that would be worthwhile in the future.

To which I reply:
1. They've been good enough for me to use them in the past. They were never MVPs, but triple anti-tank shot or triple flamer configurations of them were interesting and saw play.
2. If not being optimal in the current meta is a reason to squat a unit, then shouldn't that same logic apply to every suboptimal unit in the game? And if not, why not? This is the point Bharrin is making.
3. "Cheap troop squad with anti tank guns" is a niche they're currently filling. They're not as good at tank busting as fire dragons, but they're not as expensive as fire dragons either. And in a game where being a troop has benefits over being a non-troop, the fact that they can help fill out a batallion is a legitimate merit. I'd like to see their flamer build become better again (it's currently doing the same job as avengers and defenders but worse), but the rules for flamers could very well change at some point.

You seem to be getting very upset over the idea that other people can enjoy using a unit that isn't optimal.

EDIT:
Oh, and you don't like their fluff. Which... too bad for you I guess? If someone else thinks space elf ninja chainsword millitia are cool, let them. And also I think YOUR favorite unit has dumb fluff and should be removed, so there! Nyeh!

Just to add my incredibly unpopular opinion:

1) Remove Storm Guardians (hear me out...)
2) Combine everything into a simple "Guardian" squad, minimum size of 6-7 models if you want.
3) This Guardian squad can be armed with any of the available options in any combination, with or without platforms (you can stick in some special weapon stipulations per normal...or maybe don't? Are Guardians suddenly worthwhile if you can run 6-7 flamers or meltas?). So your Guardian squad can be dirt cheap...or can be run for a platform...or can have a sneaky melta if you want a little sting in the tail, or can have some swords/pistols if you're running a Craftworld which benefits from close combat.
4) Reduce all costs to 6 PPM.
5) Reduce WS/BS to 4+...mainly because it makes zero fething sense to have 3+ Guardians. Then bring back the old Black Guardians via Stratagem (1 CP per squad, bla bla bla).

There is no reasonable excuse for Guardians to more or less be better than Dire Avengers. That's garbage and a stupid gak rule change that flies in the face of the fluff.

So...cheap, slightly worse, modular Guardian squads.

PS: The points reduction is also assuming they keep their awful 12" shuriken catapults. Hell, bring back lasguns as a damn option, please. Give my weak and timid Guardians something that doesn't involve being in charge range of every unit in the game.

Look.. I have 2 upgrade sprues sitting on the shelve waiting for their build into two Storm guardian squads. Can We not advocate them being deleted before I get around to building & painting them?

 Elbows wrote:
Just to add my incredibly unpopular opinion:

1) Remove Storm Guardians (hear me out...)
2) Combine everything into a simple "Guardian" squad, minimum size of 6-7 models if you want.
3) This Guardian squad can be armed with any of the available options in any combination, with or without platforms (you can stick in some special weapon stipulations per normal...or maybe don't? Are Guardians suddenly worthwhile if you can run 6-7 flamers or meltas?). So your Guardian squad can be dirt cheap...or can be run for a platform...or can have a sneaky melta if you want a little sting in the tail, or can have some swords/pistols if you're running a Craftworld which benefits from close combat.
4) Reduce all costs to 6 PPM.
5) Reduce WS/BS to 4+...mainly because it makes zero fething sense to have 3+ Guardians. Then bring back the old Black Guardians via Stratagem (1 CP per squad, bla bla bla).

There is no reasonable excuse for Guardians to more or less be better than Dire Avengers. That's garbage and a stupid gak rule change that flies in the face of the fluff.

So...cheap, slightly worse, modular Guardian squads.

PS: The points reduction is also assuming they keep their awful 12" shuriken catapults. Hell, bring back lasguns as a damn option, please. Give my weak and timid Guardians something that doesn't involve being in charge range of every unit in the game.

Yeah i can agree with that.

Guardians should not be as skilled as aspect warriors


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Argive wrote:
Look.. I have 2 upgrade sprues sitting on the shelve waiting for their build into two Storm guardian squads. Can We not advocate them being deleted before I get around to building & painting them?

honestly i rather them be a squad upgrade or storm guardians to be more useful. Storm Guardians would be a great corsair unit. But unforunately we do not have a corsair codex, and if anything storm guardians are only for uthwe anyway....

Instead of getting rid of them give them a points cost reduction and make all aspect warriors have a +3 armor save or a aspect of speed which gives them a +6 ignore wound ability. Which would be explained as a 'supernatural skill' Honestly would make all aspect warriors a bit better with out increase their cost.

 Elbows wrote:
Just to add my incredibly unpopular opinion:

1) Remove Storm Guardians (hear me out...)
2) Combine everything into a simple "Guardian" squad, minimum size of 6-7 models if you want.
3) This Guardian squad can be armed with any of the available options in any combination, with or without platforms (you can stick in some special weapon stipulations per normal...or maybe don't? Are Guardians suddenly worthwhile if you can run 6-7 flamers or meltas?). So your Guardian squad can be dirt cheap...or can be run for a platform...or can have a sneaky melta if you want a little sting in the tail, or can have some swords/pistols if you're running a Craftworld which benefits from close combat.
4) Reduce all costs to 6 PPM.
5) Reduce WS/BS to 4+...mainly because it makes zero fething sense to have 3+ Guardians. Then bring back the old Black Guardians via Stratagem (1 CP per squad, bla bla bla).

There is no reasonable excuse for Guardians to more or less be better than Dire Avengers. That's garbage and a stupid gak rule change that flies in the face of the fluff.

So...cheap, slightly worse, modular Guardian squads.

PS: The points reduction is also assuming they keep their awful 12" shuriken catapults. Hell, bring back lasguns as a damn option, please. Give my weak and timid Guardians something that doesn't involve being in charge range of every unit in the game.

Not necessarily against that. I feel like you'd probably want to limit the number of special weapons somewhat (a squad full of fusion guns should really be the purview of fire dragons), but the general idea is fine. It basically lets you take any guardian weapons you want on their own merit, and it makes the squad small enough to have more flexibility with transports. Any reason not to make the minimum squad size 5? IIRC, that would make a minimum guardian squad the same cost as a minimum kabalite warrior squad, and they'd be a bit worse in comparison with BS4+.

I do like the idea of BS4+ guardians; it was a good way of distinguishing them from aspect warriors once upon a time. Though to play devil's advocate, the new exarch powers seem like they'll make dire avengers pretty distinct from guardians as-is.Guaranteed AP3 is snazzy.