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Is there a compelling reason to cancel them, when they can just soft squat them?There will always be some who still buy them.

What is the difference? They are not making new rules or models for non primaris, and non primaris practicaly do not exist in art or lore of new books. I read the WS supplment only, and a bit of the sm codex, if I didn't knew that non primaris are a thing, I would probably never notice they exist. Everything from art to who does what, is done with primaris.

Martel732 wrote:
Is there a compelling reason to cancel them, when they can just soft squat them?There will always be some who still buy them.

GW is very aware of exactly what ratio various kits sell at compaired to other kits, it's actually interesting that they can have so much data but actually haven't been able to get to there in terms of predicting the units that will shift and won't based on rules.

I suspect that's because they can't seperate the "cool models" vrs "good rules" sales and the doesn't sell vrs don't have any available to sell. But the amount of profit they arn't maximising is scary, when you look at their current results.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Manlet Marines look bad though. The only passable ones are the Mk3 and 4 ones, and that's really stretching it.

Mine don't. Git gud.

If you actually bought and put together anything else compared to the Manlet ones you might actually realize it. Even the Deathwatch guys have at least have a small amount more height.

Karol wrote:
What is the difference? They are not making new rules or models for non primaris, and non primaris practicaly do not exist in art or lore of new books. I read the WS supplment only, and a bit of the sm codex, if I didn't knew that non primaris are a thing, I would probably never notice they exist. Everything from art to who does what, is done with primaris.

Have the WS supplement in front of me:

So are all those bikers Primaris? Cos there sure are alot of images with Marine bikers in the White Scars Supplement .....

Martel732 wrote:
Is there a compelling reason to cancel them, when they can just soft squat them?There will always be some who still buy them.

Soft squat seems the worst of all options cause at some point in the future you can buy devestators, but not tac squads, Razor backs, but not Redeemers, Captains, but not librarians, and some one will complain about that.

Karol wrote:
What is the difference? They are not making new rules or models for non primaris, and non primaris practicaly do not exist in art or lore of new books

That is demonstrably false, there is plenty of normal marine art, fluff and actual models in the new codices. The White Scars one features plenty of bikes, how could you not notice?!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Manlet Marines look bad though. The only passable ones are the Mk3 and 4 ones, and that's really stretching it.

Mine don't. Git gud.

If you actually bought and put together anything else compared to the Manlet ones you might actually realize it. Even the Deathwatch guys have at least have a small amount more height.

Are you actually going for a variation of the Ishagu ‘argument’ whereby you are only allowed to comment on Primaris vs Classic aethsetics if you own Primaris models? Ignoring the fact you can easily see and inspect the full range at GWs, Independants, gaming clubs and friends armies. That’s hilarious

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Manlet Marines look bad though. The only passable ones are the Mk3 and 4 ones, and that's really stretching it.

Mine don't. Git gud.

If you actually bought and put together anything else compared to the Manlet ones you might actually realize it. Even the Deathwatch guys have at least have a small amount more height.

So you've reduced good looks to size. Ok.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Manlet Marines look bad though. The only passable ones are the Mk3 and 4 ones, and that's really stretching it.

Mine don't. Git gud.

If you actually bought and put together anything else compared to the Manlet ones you might actually realize it. Even the Deathwatch guys have at least have a small amount more height.

So you've reduced good looks to size. Ok.

Better proportioned is a better word to use, but that's partly why the Deathwatch look a lot better.

robbienw wrote:

Karol wrote:
What is the difference? They are not making new rules or models for non primaris, and non primaris practicaly do not exist in art or lore of new books

That is demonstrably false, there is plenty of normal marine art, fluff and actual models in the new codices. The White Scars one features plenty of bikes, how could you not notice?!

robbienw wrote:

Karol wrote:
What is the difference? They are not making new rules or models for non primaris, and non primaris practicaly do not exist in art or lore of new books

That is demonstrably false, there is plenty of normal marine art, fluff and actual models in the new codices. The White Scars one features plenty of bikes, how could you not notice?!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Manlet Marines look bad though. The only passable ones are the Mk3 and 4 ones, and that's really stretching it.

Mine don't. Git gud.

If you actually bought and put together anything else compared to the Manlet ones you might actually realize it. Even the Deathwatch guys have at least have a small amount more height.

Are you actually going for a variation of the Ishagu ‘argument’ whereby you are only allowed to comment on Primaris vs Classic aethsetics if you own Primaris models? Ignoring the fact you can easily see and inspect the full range at GWs, Independants, gaming clubs and friends armies. That’s hilarious

If you actually owned and worked with the models, it'd be easier to say if they weren't customizable or anything, right?

robbienw wrote:

Karol wrote:
What is the difference? They are not making new rules or models for non primaris, and non primaris practicaly do not exist in art or lore of new books

That is demonstrably false, there is plenty of normal marine art, fluff and actual models in the new codices. The White Scars one features plenty of bikes, how could you not notice?!


[

I have it in front of me, because a friend bought it. They mention bikes in passing. the whole make a marine thing, is from a primaris point of view. the whole chapter gets wrecked by huron, and when counter attacks are mentioned, it is never said it is not done by primaris, so someone new is not going to know it. The whole successor chapter page has primaris art as representation of marine. The brotherhood hoping is a thing now, it is not explained how a brother can both learn to pilot a speeder/predator and a repulsor, when old marines and new marines don't mix. the hvy support company mentions that a space marine can learn to be an eliminator or hellblaster there, no mention of devastators. 9th is done with a single sentance, and says they learn how to ride bikes there and that is all there is to say about the biker chapter, whose brotherhoods were often all bikes. all the stories and the focus is on primaris and not the normal marines. The khan changes in to a primaris without even being dead injured, on the other hand the great khan who gets tortured to almost death and turned in to a total cripple , just lays on a bad and slowly dies, and everyone wonders why doesn't someone off him.

I don't see a new direction in codex 2.0. codex 1.0 likewise had a lot of old marine strats etc. (in fact I'd argue the new codex is more primaris friendly what with several relics that are primaris only. strats for primaris etc) but over all my impression is GW intends to double dip. there's no reason not to

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Manlet Marines look bad though. The only passable ones are the Mk3 and 4 ones, and that's really stretching it.

Mine don't. Git gud.

If you actually bought and put together anything else compared to the Manlet ones you might actually realize it. Even the Deathwatch guys have at least have a small amount more height.

So you've reduced good looks to size. Ok.

Better proportioned is a better word to use, but that's partly why the Deathwatch look a lot better.

You're welcome to your opinion. I just don't share it.

Yeah the bikes are almost non -existant - what with the pics of them in artwork or models on pages:

Inside front cover
pages 3, 4,5,7,14,30, 39,44, 45, 46, 47, 49, 50,54, 55
Inside back cover
Back cover

Both the featured "how to make a Scars force are nearly 50% bikers...the various mentions in text linking into the images.

Even the Tac Marines get their own models page as well call outs in the lore.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Manlet Marines look bad though. The only passable ones are the Mk3 and 4 ones, and that's really stretching it.

Mine don't. Git gud.

If you actually bought and put together anything else compared to the Manlet ones you might actually realize it. Even the Deathwatch guys have at least have a small amount more height.

So you've reduced good looks to size. Ok.

Better proportioned is a better word to use, but that's partly why the Deathwatch look a lot better.

You're welcome to your opinion. I just don't share it.

Imma take a stab at it and say you hadn't bought the Deathwatch kit

I haven't. Because I don't like it. I've played against them a number of times though, and seen them in person. I like their commander model, but mostly because I want to use it as an Inquisitor Lord in 2nd. Ed.

I'd rather (and have) buy more Tacticals.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

robbienw wrote:

Karol wrote:
What is the difference? They are not making new rules or models for non primaris, and non primaris practicaly do not exist in art or lore of new books

That is demonstrably false, there is plenty of normal marine art, fluff and actual models in the new codices. The White Scars one features plenty of bikes, how could you not notice?!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Manlet Marines look bad though. The only passable ones are the Mk3 and 4 ones, and that's really stretching it.

Mine don't. Git gud.

If you actually bought and put together anything else compared to the Manlet ones you might actually realize it. Even the Deathwatch guys have at least have a small amount more height.

Are you actually going for a variation of the Ishagu ‘argument’ whereby you are only allowed to comment on Primaris vs Classic aethsetics if you own Primaris models? Ignoring the fact you can easily see and inspect the full range at GWs, Independants, gaming clubs and friends armies. That’s hilarious

If you actually owned and worked with the models, it'd be easier to say if they weren't customizable or anything, right?

Not really, this tends to be fairly obvious when looking at the part layout on the sprues.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

robbienw wrote:

Karol wrote:
What is the difference? They are not making new rules or models for non primaris, and non primaris practicaly do not exist in art or lore of new books

That is demonstrably false, there is plenty of normal marine art, fluff and actual models in the new codices. The White Scars one features plenty of bikes, how could you not notice?!


[

I have it in front of me, because a friend bought it. They mention bikes in passing. the whole make a marine thing, is from a primaris point of view. the whole chapter gets wrecked by huron, and when counter attacks are mentioned, it is never said it is not done by primaris, so someone new is not going to know it. The whole successor chapter page has primaris art as representation of marine. The brotherhood hoping is a thing now, it is not explained how a brother can both learn to pilot a speeder/predator and a repulsor, when old marines and new marines don't mix. the hvy support company mentions that a space marine can learn to be an eliminator or hellblaster there, no mention of devastators. 9th is done with a single sentance, and says they learn how to ride bikes there and that is all there is to say about the biker chapter, whose brotherhoods were often all bikes. all the stories and the focus is on primaris and not the normal marines. The khan changes in to a primaris without even being dead injured, on the other hand the great khan who gets tortured to almost death and turned in to a total cripple , just lays on a bad and slowly dies, and everyone wonders why doesn't someone off him.

I think you must be reading a different publication from me.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Yeah the bikes are almost non -existant - what with the pics of them in artwork or models on pages:

Inside front cover
pages 3, 4,5,7,14,30, 39,44, 45, 46, 47, 49, 50,54, 55
Inside back cover
Back cover

Both the featured "how to make a Scars force are nearly 50% bikers...the various mentions in text linking into the images.

Even the Tac Marines get their own models page as well call outs in the lore.

yes, because no where in the text does it say the bikers are not primaris. A new players is not going to know that the primaris are the oddity in the codex, that is wrong. They will buy in to the models, and GW will make more of them, and not support non primaris. Which means factions like my that do not get primaris will get screwed.

Again look at the company descriptions. Every time they mention marines from brotherhoods they focus on the primaris, the name them, that marine can be X or Y, as if a primaris was a marine at all and not an tech heresy abomination. What is in the part about being a WS? a primaris space marine not a normal marine.

And again you know that primaris are wrong, and I know they are wrong. But a new player is going to read the supplement and if no one tells them that there is something wrong about primaris, theya re going to assume that it is the primaris that are the natural thing. And then they are going to buy in to them, and in a few years, you may not even have people who think there is anything wrong with primaris. And then GW is really not going to fix factions who do not have access to them.

Karol wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Yeah the bikes are almost non -existant - what with the pics of them in artwork or models on pages:

Inside front cover
pages 3, 4,5,7,14,30, 39,44, 45, 46, 47, 49, 50,54, 55
Inside back cover
Back cover

Both the featured "how to make a Scars force are nearly 50% bikers...the various mentions in text linking into the images.

Even the Tac Marines get their own models page as well call outs in the lore.

yes, because no where in the text does it say the bikers are not primaris. A new players is not going to know that the primaris are the oddity in the codex, that is wrong. They will buy in to the models, and GW will make more of them, and not support non primaris. Which means factions like my that do not get primaris will get screwed.

Again look at the company descriptions. Every time they mention marines from brotherhoods they focus on the primaris, the name them, that marine can be X or Y, as if a primaris was a marine at all and not an tech heresy abomination. What is in the part about being a WS? a primaris space marine not a normal marine.

And again you know that primaris are wrong, and I know they are wrong. But a new player is going to read the supplement and if no one tells them that there is something wrong about primaris, theya re going to assume that it is the primaris that are the natural thing. And then they are going to buy in to them, and in a few years, you may not even have people who think there is anything wrong with primaris. And then GW is really not going to fix factions who do not have access to them.

yes GW doesn't specify the bikers are Primaris or not because it's not relevant. they're BIKERS. Old school Marines aren't going anywhere. not in the immediate future.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I haven't. Because I don't like it. I've played against them a number of times though, and seen them in person. I like their commander model, but mostly because I want to use it as an Inquisitor Lord in 2nd. Ed.

I'd rather (and have) buy more Tacticals.

Which honestly demonstrates your inability to let go of the past. They're a dated kit and dated model. Even look at something as simple as the newer Rubric Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

robbienw wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

robbienw wrote:

Karol wrote:
What is the difference? They are not making new rules or models for non primaris, and non primaris practicaly do not exist in art or lore of new books

That is demonstrably false, there is plenty of normal marine art, fluff and actual models in the new codices. The White Scars one features plenty of bikes, how could you not notice?!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Manlet Marines look bad though. The only passable ones are the Mk3 and 4 ones, and that's really stretching it.

Mine don't. Git gud.

If you actually bought and put together anything else compared to the Manlet ones you might actually realize it. Even the Deathwatch guys have at least have a small amount more height.

Are you actually going for a variation of the Ishagu ‘argument’ whereby you are only allowed to comment on Primaris vs Classic aethsetics if you own Primaris models? Ignoring the fact you can easily see and inspect the full range at GWs, Independants, gaming clubs and friends armies. That’s hilarious

If you actually owned and worked with the models, it'd be easier to say if they weren't customizable or anything, right?

Not really, this tends to be fairly obvious when looking at the part layout on the sprues.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

robbienw wrote:

Karol wrote:
What is the difference? They are not making new rules or models for non primaris, and non primaris practicaly do not exist in art or lore of new books

That is demonstrably false, there is plenty of normal marine art, fluff and actual models in the new codices. The White Scars one features plenty of bikes, how could you not notice?!


[

I have it in front of me, because a friend bought it. They mention bikes in passing. the whole make a marine thing, is from a primaris point of view. the whole chapter gets wrecked by huron, and when counter attacks are mentioned, it is never said it is not done by primaris, so someone new is not going to know it. The whole successor chapter page has primaris art as representation of marine. The brotherhood hoping is a thing now, it is not explained how a brother can both learn to pilot a speeder/predator and a repulsor, when old marines and new marines don't mix. the hvy support company mentions that a space marine can learn to be an eliminator or hellblaster there, no mention of devastators. 9th is done with a single sentance, and says they learn how to ride bikes there and that is all there is to say about the biker chapter, whose brotherhoods were often all bikes. all the stories and the focus is on primaris and not the normal marines. The khan changes in to a primaris without even being dead injured, on the other hand the great khan who gets tortured to almost death and turned in to a total cripple , just lays on a bad and slowly dies, and everyone wonders why doesn't someone off him.

I think you must be reading a different publication from me.

You're right, it IS obvious that they're easy to work with and customize.

Having both regular marines and primaris in my deathwatch I can say I still love my old marines but yes the nu marines look good too at least the core models. I'm not a huge fan of the gravis units as of yet. Though I don't mine the phobos types.

I do have and play deathwatch, and I can say I enjoy both the model lines just fine. If someone can't ever touch or look at an old marine again, I look forward to making them have to look at all of mine, forever, even if I lose even if the rules are so bad it's almost an auto loss when I deploy.

Why ? Because I love them, and I will as long as I play the game and if you lose to old marines, you must be awful as they will one day be sooooo bad.

Jokes aside, for those saying old marines are dead. Newsflash, everything is dead, being born increases your chance of death 100%. Everything dies, everything breaks down and falls to nothing. This game won't even last forever and for all we know it'll die before old marines will as a model line or with rules support. We just don't know, the people cheering on their death could be dead before they see it happen, life is chaotic.

If your life is so lacking you have to be happy at someone elses sadness, I think you should fix your priorities and learn to enjoy life before its over. Everything dies, everything fades away, finding joy in that and in peoples loss is really rejecting your own gifts, and your own time can be spent better. Just my opinion on the matter.

Karol wrote:

yes, because no where in the text does it say the bikers are not primaris. A new players is not going to know that the primaris are the oddity in the codex, that is wrong. They will buy in to the models, and GW will make more of them, and not support non primaris. Which means factions like my that do not get primaris will get screwed.

Again look at the company descriptions. Every time they mention marines from brotherhoods they focus on the primaris, the name them, that marine can be X or Y, as if a primaris was a marine at all and not an tech heresy abomination. What is in the part about being a WS? a primaris space marine not a normal marine.

And again you know that primaris are wrong, and I know they are wrong. But a new player is going to read the supplement and if no one tells them that there is something wrong about primaris, theya re going to assume that it is the primaris that are the natural thing. And then they are going to buy in to them, and in a few years, you may not even have people who think there is anything wrong with primaris. And then GW is really not going to fix factions who do not have access to them.

What the feth are you going on about? The normal marines are now primaris, yes, the new players will get them because they're not blinded by their nostalgia goggles and can clearly see that the models are much better. Grey Knight will most likely get the primaris when GW gets around making dedicated models to them, as the standard primaris models do not for their style. Notice now no chapter has gotten any dedicated primaris models aside some characters?

You're right, it IS obvious that they're easy to work with and customize.

I’m not sure what you are on about, I was commenting on the fact one is able to comment on the aethsetics of models they don’t own.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I haven't. Because I don't like it. I've played against them a number of times though, and seen them in person. I like their commander model, but mostly because I want to use it as an Inquisitor Lord in 2nd. Ed.

I'd rather (and have) buy more Tacticals.

Which honestly demonstrates your inability to let go of the past. They're a dated kit and dated model. Even look at something as simple as the newer Rubric Marines.

My army is drawn from 25 years of consistent styling and scaling, and I don't require that they scale "accurately" to anything other than themselves. They are playable for the time being, they look great, the model line offers anything I could possibly want and their army list allows me to field any battlefield role I could need. If GW does retire classics from the game, I'd sooner collect a different faction, and already have. I've got a 5000+ point collection of Tyranids ready to go. I'd get serious about my Eldar collection than start a new marine army, or add models to it that look out of place.

I'll be happy to slaughter Primaris with filthy xenos at my FLGS, and keep my marines for old school games with friends, if that's what it comes to.

Karol wrote:


And again you know that primaris are wrong, and I know they are wrong. But a new player is going to read the supplement and if no one tells them that there is something wrong about primaris, theya re going to assume that it is the primaris that are the natural thing. And then they are going to buy in to them, and in a few years, you may not even have people who think there is anything wrong with primaris. And then GW is really not going to fix factions who do not have access to them.

I really don’t think there is anything to worry about in that regard. Just like most of use when we started, new players/collectors will learn the background of the factions and distinctions between marines quite quickly, at least the ones who will stick around long term. I’m sure their aethsetic tastes will move on as well.

Some people aren't going to just rebuild armies made over decades just because GW want to super size me.

As well I'll add loving the old marines isn't nostalgia, they are still around, I as one person see nothing wrong with them. If someone finds them awful, that is on them entirely and not on me or any other supporter of the line. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and no one can say what is more or less ugly to anyone they can only say their opinions.

Trying to devalue someones opinion by nostalgia is simply a weak statement. I can like the way a model looks..and..AND also feel good about it from history with them. You can do both, even if someone can't understand why anyone would like them.

Hell, I think Necrons as models are awful dumb, ugly trash, yet I can get why people like them aside from just being a bit daft, it's all about the person.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I haven't. Because I don't like it. I've played against them a number of times though, and seen them in person. I like their commander model, but mostly because I want to use it as an Inquisitor Lord in 2nd. Ed.

I'd rather (and have) buy more Tacticals.

Which honestly demonstrates your inability to let go of the past. They're a dated kit and dated model. Even look at something as simple as the newer Rubric Marines.

This is utter nonsense, they are a relatively recent kit from the modern era with very sharp surface detailing. The Tactical kit only came out 3 years before the rubric marines kit you are talking about, in 2013. Hardly dated by any stretch of the imagination.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I haven't. Because I don't like it. I've played against them a number of times though, and seen them in person. I like their commander model, but mostly because I want to use it as an Inquisitor Lord in 2nd. Ed.

I'd rather (and have) buy more Tacticals.

Which honestly demonstrates your inability to let go of the past. They're a dated kit and dated model. Even look at something as simple as the newer Rubric Marines.

My army is drawn from 25 years of consistent styling and scaling, and I don't require that they scale "accurately" to anything other than themselves. They are playable for the time being, they look great, the model line offers anything I could possibly want and their army list allows me to field any battlefield role I could need. If GW does retire classics from the game, I'd sooner collect a different faction, and already have. I've got a 5000+ point collection of Tyranids ready to go. I'd get serious about my Eldar collection than start a new marine army, or add models to it that look out of place.

I'll be happy to slaughter Primaris with filthy xenos at my FLGS, and keep my marines for old school games with friends, if that's what it comes to.

Same here, I’m not going to move to Primaris if classics ever went away, I also collect other factions I would focus on more. I have Custodes for the more elite than marines requirement, there is no need for Primaris

I don't think it's wrong to say though that rose coloured glasses are impacting a lot of the judgements here. to say a new tank looks silly and poorly planned out, while the LAND RAIDER has a sensable design is definatly a case of it

AngryAngel80 wrote:

As well I'll add loving the old marines isn't nostalgia, they are still around, I as one person see nothing wrong with them. If someone finds them awful, that is on them entirely and not on me or any other supporter of the line. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and no one can say what is more or less ugly to anyone they can only say their opinions.

Trying to devalue someones opinion by nostalgia is simply a weak statement. I can like the way a model looks..and..AND also feel good about it from history with them. You can do both, even if someone can't understand why anyone would like them.

Hell, I think Necrons as models are awful dumb, ugly trash, yet I can get why people like them aside from just being a bit daft, it's all about the person.

As a professionally trained artist, I really hate this 'it is just an opinion, man' bs. There is a bit more to evaluating art than that. To say that is just a matter of opinion whether Leonardo Da Vinci's The Last Supper is a better painting than the the portrait of Vladimir Putin by George W. Bush would be missing quite a bit of nuance.

And anyone who thinks that the new players will not overwhelmingly prefer the look of the primaris is just deluding themselves in a colossal degree.