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torblind wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Necrons should really have blanket morale resistance. They are a race of machines, and morale already punishes them by permanently removing models from the table.

There should be a hard cap on the number of models they can lose, like 3. It would make the Immortal Pride warlord trait less of a no brainer when it comes to silver tide, at least.

Yeah, getting a RP roll on unit wipe would be handy. I would just make it a single roll though; you have 1 chance to stop a unit from getting wiped.

Thing is, running away for moral isn't necessarily an illogical choice, against hopeless odds, you run away to fight another day. Logical for humans, and logical for machines. The fact that emotional distress is what causes it in humans doesn't change the fact that it can be a meaningful response.

It kind of is illogical though if the robots in question are just going to teleport to the Tomb World either way.
If necrons didn't phase out due to irreparable damage then you'd have a point, as it would be logical for intact units to retreat, either to avoid capture or self-destruction (to avoid capture). But necrons do teleport back to the Tomb World when they fail their protocols, or at least they used to, so deciding to bugger off and basically screwing everyone who's still awaiting repairs is a bit of a dick move.

Maybe RP should be moved to the morale phase. It seems ineffective at the start of the turn, as buff providers have a hard time getting into position, especially with 3" auras. 3" auras are only acceptable if they are at the end of the move phase or later, imo. Otherwise they are kind of gak.


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Slaul wrote:

torblind wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Necrons should really have blanket morale resistance. They are a race of machines, and morale already punishes them by permanently removing models from the table.

There should be a hard cap on the number of models they can lose, like 3. It would make the Immortal Pride warlord trait less of a no brainer when it comes to silver tide, at least.

Yeah, getting a RP roll on unit wipe would be handy. I would just make it a single roll though; you have 1 chance to stop a unit from getting wiped.

Thing is, running away for moral isn't necessarily an illogical choice, against hopeless odds, you run away to fight another day. Logical for humans, and logical for machines. The fact that emotional distress is what causes it in humans doesn't change the fact that it can be a meaningful response.

Edit: and to be clear, I'm not sure I'd agree with a blanket morale immunity. I'm thinking more like certain HQ's give a morale immunity bubble or perhaps targets of MWBD are immune to morale or something.

That's what Immortal Pride does. 6" morale immunity bubble. Its nice, but it kind of sucks that you pretty much have to take it if you are running silver tide, otherwise your warrior blobs are just going to evaporate from morale.

Phase Out: When models flee from a unit with this ability you may select slain models to flee from that unit.

If Necrons got this ability I think RP would be fixed, it solves the issue of more than 10 models fleeing from a 6 man unit. Let's say you have 20 Warriors and 14 are slain. Currently, if you roll a 2+ the unit is gone, not only do you lose 6 models, you also lose any models that would come back next turn and any turns after that.

With this rule you'd be permanently losing RP for 7,5 models, so morale does still have an effect, but it's not double or triple the effect of what most other factions face in terms of how important it is. Losing a couple of Guardsmen is just so unimportant compared to permanently losing a self-repairing block of twenty Warriors that you've invested a couple hundred pts of support into.

I actually like that as a fix for Necron Morale issues.... lets see if it comes out that way though, eh?

Could send GW an email suggesting it. They might sneak it in at some point.

 vict0988 wrote:
Phase Out: When models flee from a unit with this ability you may select slain models to flee from that unit.

If Necrons got this ability I think RP would be fixed, it solves the issue of more than 10 models fleeing from a 6 man unit. Let's say you have 20 Warriors and 14 are slain. Currently, if you roll a 2+ the unit is gone, not only do you lose 6 models, you also lose any models that would come back next turn and any turns after that.

With this rule you'd be permanently losing RP for 7,5 models, so morale does still have an effect, but it's not double or triple the effect of what most other factions face in terms of how important it is. Losing a couple of Guardsmen is just so unimportant compared to permanently losing a self-repairing block of twenty Warriors that you've invested a couple hundred pts of support into.

That's a really cool idea. I like it!

What if they made a stratagem that allowed RP rolls for a selected unit at the end of a phase? I'd pay 2 CP for that and then it wouldn't break the game or anything.

v0iddrgn wrote:
What if they made a stratagem that allowed RP rolls for a selected unit at the end of a phase? I'd pay 2 CP for that and then it wouldn't break the game or anything.

Some people have suggested allowing RP to roll at every phase.

That is broken to high hell. As a 2 CP strat, though? Feels fine to me.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Some people have suggested allowing RP to roll at every phase.

That is broken to high hell.

You'd need all failed RP rolls to result in the model fleeing, but I think the 5e system is better than 7e and 8e.

So I've had a thought about scarabs - what if instead of being in fast attack or troops, they take no Slots, but are limited to 1 per unit of NECRONs.

One of the weaknesses of the necron army is that the best screening unit is also a Fast Attack unit, which means that if you are taking scarabs you'll have less slots to work with, so unless you have the points to run outrider your options are going to be limited.

Making scarabs slotless makes it so that you will always have a screen option without sacrificing a slot for wraiths, blades or destroyers.

From a lore standpoint it makes sense too, as Scarabs are always prevalent during a necron invasion.

vict0988 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Some people have suggested allowing RP to roll at every phase.

That is broken to high hell.

You'd need all failed RP rolls to result in the model fleeing, but I think the 5e system is better than 7e and 8e.

I ran the math. If you charge 30 Plaguebearers into 20 Necron Warriors, without taking any casualties on the way in, you'd expect the Plaguebearers to win, right? It might take a few fights, but they're a purely melee unit against a mostly shooting unit.

If you RP at every phase, you'd lose with the Plaguebearers, just about every time.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:So I've had a thought about scarabs - what if instead of being in fast attack or troops, they take no Slots, but are limited to 1 per unit of NECRONs.

One of the weaknesses of the necron army is that the best screening unit is also a Fast Attack unit, which means that if you are taking scarabs you'll have less slots to work with, so unless you have the points to run outrider your options are going to be limited.

Making scarabs slotless makes it so that you will always have a screen option without sacrificing a slot for wraiths, blades or destroyers.

From a lore standpoint it makes sense too, as Scarabs are always prevalent during a necron invasion.

That's not helpful. Being Troops helps-gets you CP. Being slotless is, most often, a PENALTY, not a bonus.

 JNAProductions wrote:

vict0988 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Some people have suggested allowing RP to roll at every phase.

That is broken to high hell.

You'd need all failed RP rolls to result in the model fleeing, but I think the 5e system is better than 7e and 8e.

I ran the math. If you charge 30 Plaguebearers into 20 Necron Warriors, without taking any casualties on the way in, you'd expect the Plaguebearers to win, right? It might take a few fights, but they're a purely melee unit against a mostly shooting unit.

If you RP at every phase, you'd lose with the Plaguebearers, just about every time.

Not if you only RP once per model. If you RP the whole squad every battle round 14 times, yeah they'll win.

If you use 5e RP (end of phase pass or flee) it'll take 12 rounds or less for 30 Plaguebearers to kill 20 Warriors and they'll have 17 or more left.

With current 8th ed rules it takes 20 Warriors 21 rounds to beat 30 Plaguebearers. So if you want 30 PBs that have taken no damage to win then you'll want 5th ed RP, if you want you want them to lose you want 8th ed. But it's not like the Warriors actually win, you're not going to have 21 rounds in most games, any games really being wiped out in a single round + morale is far easier for Necrons compared to PBs.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So I've had a thought about scarabs - what if instead of being in fast attack or troops, they take no Slots, but are limited to 1 per unit of NECRONs.

One of the weaknesses of the necron army is that the best screening unit is also a Fast Attack unit, which means that if you are taking scarabs you'll have less slots to work with, so unless you have the points to run outrider your options are going to be limited.

Making scarabs slotless makes it so that you will always have a screen option without sacrificing a slot for wraiths, blades or destroyers.

From a lore standpoint it makes sense too, as Scarabs are always prevalent during a necron invasion.

Maybe treat them like Tau shield drones? Most units have the option of adding 1-2 and you may additionally take squads of them as Fast Attack?

Slaul wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So I've had a thought about scarabs - what if instead of being in fast attack or troops, they take no Slots, but are limited to 1 per unit of NECRONs.

One of the weaknesses of the necron army is that the best screening unit is also a Fast Attack unit, which means that if you are taking scarabs you'll have less slots to work with, so unless you have the points to run outrider your options are going to be limited.

Making scarabs slotless makes it so that you will always have a screen option without sacrificing a slot for wraiths, blades or destroyers.

From a lore standpoint it makes sense too, as Scarabs are always prevalent during a necron invasion.

Maybe treat them like Tau shield drones? Most units have the option of adding 1-2 and you may additionally take squads of them as Fast Attack?

Yeah, maybe. Being able to use scarabs like grots and block shots would also increase overall durability.
Think of it as a huge wall of bugs converging to block fire.

If RP was a one-shot thing, then yeah, that’s fine.

I'd like to see our WL traits reworked into three tables, mostly to get Cryptek Harbingers back, I'd also love it if we had one or two Stratagems for getting more than one WL trait on the field like Drukhari, Black Legion, Specialist Detachments, Imperial/Chaos Knights.

Unique Warlord Traits


Cryptek Warlord Traits


Lord Warlord Traits

Overlord Traits

Dynasty Eccentricities

I think Necrons need only a handful of rules buffs and a stratagem or two to be really good. List of changes that could make all of the difference are:

1. Stratagem that allows for RP at the end of any Phase.
2. Res Orbs grant reroll 1's for a nominated unit at the beginning of the turn (Orb of Eternity would buff this to an aura effect).
3. Enhanced Reanimation Protocols stratagem allows for a second RP roll on a nominated unit.
4. Change Living Metal to a 6+ FNP and grant D3 wounds back at the beginning of your turn (Cloakteks would add 1 to the roll).
5. Characters lose Living Metal and gain Everliving which would grant one wound back at the beginning of your turn and the first time it is slain get back up on a 4+ (essentially getting Resurrection Protocols built in).
6 Tesla Destructors need to be changed to D3 damage.
7. Warscythes need to cause MW's on wound rolls of 6+.
8. Deathmarks gain +1 to wound rolls against marked target (5+ for MW's).
9. Monolith's Portal of Exile should proc within 1" regardless of being charged or not.

That should do it. Just the changes to Living Metal would instantly make Monoliths playable again and the change to Tesla Destructors would make Annihilation Barges viable again. Deathmarks need the love too.

100% of what is wrong with Necrons is their race specific rules and buffs. I would argue, as the most advanced race in the 40,000 universe the Necrons deserve a great deal more resilience. Based on their fluff Necrons should be the tankiest force on the tabletop, most of it makes them out to be a foe that cannot be beaten, just held back until an objective is completed, and at great cost.

The manner in which their dead are described to 'Phase Out' is one of the coolest things in the Universe. Perhaps when Warriors are described as being blown to pieces, and reassembling themselves, that is some fantastic narrative. The Necrons are one of THE great enemies in 40,000 and I have been 100% against them getting 'standard' units like transports for example. A race that can Phase in and out of the material universe needs transports, for real?

What made them so interesting was their limited, but exotic choices, I mean back in late third edition Pariahs were one of THE most feared units on the tabletop, their melee weapons were unique in the fact NO-ONE else had them. It wasn't just another Power Sword, or a whatever. It was a weapon that made Pariahs a genuine risk to EVERYTHING on the battlefield be it the biggest, toughest Daemon or the toughest tank. The fact Pariahs also caused absolute panic to witches and the likes made them again, unique. A soulless force with a debuff against the powers of the Warp, people were petrified of Pariahs reaching their lines. I seen a Tau force fold when two squads of Pariahs reached their Fire Warrior line.

Their Gauss weapons were again, one of a kind, not just a standard weapon rehash, these weapons disassemble targets at the molecular level but have almost the same base stats as a boltgun? For real? What was wrong with their D6 roll of 6 causes damage regardless rule? It meant humble Warriors could ACTUALLY take out a Land Raider. A feat NO other troop squad could do, speaking of Warriors, the most advanced race in the known universe with automatons forged of Living Metal have the same armour save as a Scout Marine? Where is the logic in that? Warriors should be tough, intimidating, but slow and cumbersome.

The area Necrons need a massive overhaul is Reanimation Protocols, Living Metal (which should be applicable to ALL Necrons, all of them are made of it after all) and Gauss weapons. The Necrons need to be the Borg of the 40,000 Universe, adaptable, resilient, exotic. Not just weaker, robotic Space Marines with glowing guns.

Warriors should have a 3+ armour save and be given the Living Metal rule. Make them slow, purposeful but hard to kill. Necron foot soldiers shouldn't be folding under light fire.

Immortals need to be tougher, since their squad size is half that of Warriors, their point cost should be higher bit overall toughness and wounds also higher. Still slow to advance. After all Immortals are a fair bit bulkier than Warriors but no tougher? But I would still retain them as a troop choice but state that a Necron force MUST have at least two squads of Warriors before Immortals are allowed.

I would remove the transport outright if I'm honest, take them back to being a foot soldier force for the most part. Transports in a traditional sense don't suit them, if we need transport make it something Phase related rather than a material construct that is boarded.

Gauss weapons should have their D6 roll of 6 can damage a target regardless of toughness reinstated. It wasn't broken to begin with and it would make their weapons a bit 'different'.

I think Necrons should suffer no penalties for moving and shooting, slow, purposeful but brutal advance. Necrons aren't organic constructs, never running out of breath, never flinching whilst taking fire. Their rules should do better to show that.

Living Metal is the one that needs a serious buff. How about giving it an AP debuff of 1, or even 50% rounding down. That'd make them unique in the sense that shooting them isn't like shooting all the other armies. Perhaps instead of an outright debuff, a 'learned' debuff that can be acculated over time, making them more resilient the more Warriors (for example) get gunned down.

I dunno, random things that I threw out there. But right now, Necrons as a race are rubbish and in no manner unique like once before. I think the game is worse for it as well, We have fast, swarming armies. We have small, elite armies. We have vehicle based armies. We have the unique Tau battlesuits. What we don't have is a slow, tanker force that is genuinely difficult to take down, especially with the new AP rules where Terminator Armour is no more special than any other armour.

You can make ANYTHING balanced with enough thought on point cost (provided it's not a God unit).


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Another one worth considering is the Monolith. Once the single toughest non-SH vehicle in 40K, again with unique, bespoke abilities to protect itself, rendering weapons above a certain Strength null and void, being able to regenerate (within reason) and the coolest feature is landing when immobilised rather than crashing.

I had this vision of eerie monoliths descending from the skies, giving off an alien hum, or the sound of static, with their dark, matt, metallic exterior somehow shimmering as if alive. The recognisable green hue emerging from it as it is stops its descent a few metres from the ground. A matt black fluid like door on the front, acting as a gate for endless Warriors. Krak missiles, lascannons being 'absorbed' by its alien exterior as it let's out a deafening surge of energy, like a green lightning bolt reaching across the battlefield, creating huge green flashes, explosions. That is the Necrons I wanna see return, not these half arsed imposters.

You do know 6s wound everything already, right?

LOL nobody feared Pariahs come on. They were NEAT but they weren't ever good.

Gary_1986 wrote:
100% of what is wrong with Necrons is their race specific rules and buffs. I would argue, as the most advanced race in the 40,000 universe the Necrons deserve a great deal more resilience. Based on their fluff Necrons should be the tankiest force on the tabletop, most of it makes them out to be a foe that cannot be beaten, just held back until an objective is completed, and at great cost.

Necrons don't deserve more resilience, their number is legion, they should not be more elite than Space Marines. Arnold the Terminator wasn't defeated by SM, but by civilians, he was scary, tough and relentless, making Necrons into SM does not make sense in any universe.

The manner in which their dead are described to 'Phase Out' is one of the coolest things in the Universe. Perhaps when Warriors are described as being blown to pieces, and reassembling themselves, that is some fantastic narrative. The Necrons are one of THE great enemies in 40,000 and I have been 100% against them getting 'standard' units like transports for example. A race that can Phase in and out of the material universe needs transports, for real?

Agreed, Ghost Arks should only repair, not transport, Monoliths and Night Scythes both work thematically IMO, they just need new rules.

What made them so interesting was their limited, but exotic choices, I mean back in late third edition Pariahs were one of THE most feared units on the tabletop, their melee weapons were unique in the fact NO-ONE else had them. It wasn't just another Power Sword, or a whatever. It was a weapon that made Pariahs a genuine risk to EVERYTHING on the battlefield be it the biggest, toughest Daemon or the toughest tank. The fact Pariahs also caused absolute panic to witches and the likes made them again, unique. A soulless force with a debuff against the powers of the Warp, people were petrified of Pariahs reaching their lines. I seen a Tau force fold when two squads of Pariahs reached their Fire Warrior line.

Two units of Wraiths or Lychguard in melee with a Tau castle is quite scary.

Their Gauss weapons were again, one of a kind, not just a standard weapon rehash, these weapons disassemble targets at the molecular level but have almost the same base stats as a boltgun? For real? What was wrong with their D6 roll of 6 causes damage regardless rule? It meant humble Warriors could ACTUALLY take out a Land Raider. A feat NO other troop squad could do, speaking of Warriors, the most advanced race in the known universe with automatons forged of Living Metal have the same armour save as a Scout Marine? Where is the logic in that? Warriors should be tough, intimidating, but slow and cumbersome.

Warriors should have a 3+ armour save and be given the Living Metal rule. Make them slow, purposeful but hard to kill. Necron foot soldiers shouldn't be folding under light fire.

Guardsmen wound Land Raiders on 6+ now, as does every other unit, Necrons got 1 better AP now that every faction has Gauss, which is a little bit flavourless and certainly weaker than inflicting glancing hits was in 6th/7th. Warriors should be T3 3+ Sv Vehicles, not just superior more advanced SM.

Living Metal is the one that needs a serious buff. How about giving it an AP debuff of 1, or even 50% rounding down. That'd make them unique in the sense that shooting them isn't like shooting all the other armies. Perhaps instead of an outright debuff, a 'learned' debuff that can be acculated over time, making them more resilient the more Warriors (for example) get gunned down.

The problem IMO is QS being too strong. I'd love QS to give a degrading Sv characteristic boost and living metal reduce damage by 1 if the damage is 3+, this would bring back the Monolith's anti-lance/melta property and would make the different defensive profiles of Necrons more similar.

I dunno, random things that I threw out there. But right now, Necrons as a race are rubbish and in no manner unique like once before. I think the game is worse for it as well, We have fast, swarming armies. We have small, elite armies. We have vehicle based armies. We have the unique Tau battlesuits. What we don't have is a slow, tanker force that is genuinely difficult to take down, especially with the new AP rules where Terminator Armour is no more special than any other armour.

Plaguebearer hordes disagree.

You can make ANYTHING balanced with enough thought on point cost (provided it's not a God unit).

Make it 2001 pts and God units can't ruin 99% of games.

I still have the Third Edition Necron Codex and was having a flick through last night. With the fluff side of things stating:

'Bullets and lasguns' do nothing to their metallic limbs. Then it goes on to state that the humans are arrogant to think themselves among the first in the stars, to the Necrons we (humans) are but dust in the wind. Their narrative implies that Necrons are VERY difficult to put down, even when managing to down a Warrior it still isn't out of action as it self repairs.

Giving them the toughness of a basic human, or a Tau seems somewhat wrong given their implied resilience. It doesn't feel like it's right for even the most basic Necron soldiers. But, I don't see how Necrons can be 'fixed' to make them not seem somehow disjointed, without making them too strong. But some tweaks could at least help make them competitive.

Gary_1986 wrote:
I still have the Third Edition Necron Codex and was having a flick through last night. With the fluff side of things stating:

'Bullets and lasguns' do nothing to their metallic limbs. Then it goes on to state that the humans are arrogant to think themselves among the first in the stars, to the Necrons we (humans) are but dust in the wind. Their narrative implies that Necrons are VERY difficult to put down, even when managing to down a Warrior it still isn't out of action as it self repairs.

Giving them the toughness of a basic human, or a Tau seems somewhat wrong given their implied resilience. It doesn't feel like it's right for even the most basic Necron soldiers. But, I don't see how Necrons can be 'fixed' to make them not seem somehow disjointed, without making them too strong. But some tweaks could at least help make them competitive.

Novels on the topic say the same thing

Gary_1986 wrote:
I still have the Third Edition Necron Codex and was having a flick through last night. With the fluff side of things stating:

'Bullets and lasguns' do nothing to their metallic limbs. Then it goes on to state that the humans are arrogant to think themselves among the first in the stars, to the Necrons we (humans) are but dust in the wind. Their narrative implies that Necrons are VERY difficult to put down, even when managing to down a Warrior it still isn't out of action as it self repairs.

Giving them the toughness of a basic human, or a Tau seems somewhat wrong given their implied resilience. It doesn't feel like it's right for even the most basic Necron soldiers. But, I don't see how Necrons can be 'fixed' to make them not seem somehow disjointed, without making them too strong. But some tweaks could at least help make them competitive.

Third edition Codex is not canon.

What do you think the Toughness characteristic is and what do you think the Save characteristic is? Toughness is countered by poison. Save is countered by armour-piercing weapons. Being literally untouched by non-AP weapons makes it seem like they have good armour so they don't get hurt, not that they get hurt but are so tough that they fight through it. What should counter Necrons, AP or poison? Making them T4 Vehicles is probably best, in 7th that wasn't an option so I thought they should have been T3 5+ FNP but I've changed my mind. I suppose it's fine if they are as tough as Marines.

The thing about Necrons though, is as far as I've seen mentioned in canon. Necrons don't feel pain, aren't slowed down from such quaint things as 'injuries'. Their tech is on a literal God level, hell these are the ancient evil the Eldar refer to and the Eldar are also ancient. I'm a massive fan of making armies and rules that fit into canon and Necrons are supposed to be a silent, advancing metal wall of death. The fact their advance is silent, even under a hail of fire implies their soulless, unfeeling, fearless nature. Don't get me wrong I think a few small tweaks would make them a rather competitive force but still doesn't fix how out of place their armies seem, there's nowt more wrong than watching Necrons get 'gunned' down with box standard weapons, and since their Reanimation Protocols are worse than We'll Be Back, it's just not right. I'm not a Necron gamer BTW for reference, I have been Ordo Malleus since Third Edition and had some epic, fantastic battles against the Necrons, right to the wire.

Umm... I don't think the tabletop rules will ever reflect the fluff very well. I also enjoyed the 3rd edition fluff best but as far as rules go just a few simple fixes should put them back on track as stated above. Feel free to debate but forget the fluff being reflected accurately, at best I'd be happy if it was reflected marginally.

Yeah for sure, their fluff makes them FAR too strong, Marines in general. But I'd at least like it if Games Workshop gives the Knights a bit of TLC.