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My change was directed to the future. Old marines get no support aimed at them. Theyd still ignore the first -1 to hit.

Gitdakka wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wow, I don't even want to think about Leviathans walking around with the -1 to all damage buff.

To be honest, the problem with Intercessors is the cost, not the survivability. I would much prefer cheaper chaff than harder to kill chaff. I think the D2-D1 would go well on Elite level infantry and vehicles. Oh gawd a full squad of Hellblasters with this...

Making them cheaper would fix it, but then they don't feel like marines anymore, letalone Primaris marines. Turning everybody into chaff/horde is not a good solution.

Right, but for every balance, you have to take into account FW units. We could increase the survivability of all Primaris, but then you risk making FW units even more Meta auto-take. I still advocate for scalpel level changes, not thunder hammer.

I get the concern, but I think the approach needs to be to fix the bulk of units that all have essentially the same problem, and then deal with edge cases like FW dreads on their own. Otherwise we just end up with "You can't fix Marine infantry because it might break these 2 units." Just don't give the buff to those units, or nerf them in some other way. Marines need to be back on the table.

The reduction of damage down to one would only help numarines and other 2+w units though. It would be another spit in the face to regular marine collectors. I dont think that is what the community needs... A buff thet helps both primaris and regulars would be more appreciated.

Also bring in a machete or something, scalpel is not enough.

You know shortmarines are in their way to extinction, right?
It would still help Terminators, though.

DanielFM wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wow, I don't even want to think about Leviathans walking around with the -1 to all damage buff.

To be honest, the problem with Intercessors is the cost, not the survivability. I would much prefer cheaper chaff than harder to kill chaff. I think the D2-D1 would go well on Elite level infantry and vehicles. Oh gawd a full squad of Hellblasters with this...

Making them cheaper would fix it, but then they don't feel like marines anymore, letalone Primaris marines. Turning everybody into chaff/horde is not a good solution.

Right, but for every balance, you have to take into account FW units. We could increase the survivability of all Primaris, but then you risk making FW units even more Meta auto-take. I still advocate for scalpel level changes, not thunder hammer.

I get the concern, but I think the approach needs to be to fix the bulk of units that all have essentially the same problem, and then deal with edge cases like FW dreads on their own. Otherwise we just end up with "You can't fix Marine infantry because it might break these 2 units." Just don't give the buff to those units, or nerf them in some other way. Marines need to be back on the table.

The reduction of damage down to one would only help numarines and other 2+w units though. It would be another spit in the face to regular marine collectors. I dont think that is what the community needs... A buff thet helps both primaris and regulars would be more appreciated.

Also bring in a machete or something, scalpel is not enough.

You know shortmarines are in their way to extinction, right?
It would still help Terminators, though.

They just released a brand new kit of Chaos shortmarines, so no, they are not. Perhaps for loyalists yes, but not for everyone. Rubrics and Plague Marines are also fairly new, and we're expecting new Noise Marines and Berzerkers when those factions get their own books. Of course, they could phase out shortmarines for loyalists and never fix Chaos Marines at all.

Chaos would get their own stuff.

Martel732 wrote:
My change was directed to the future. Old marines get no support aimed at them. Theyd still ignore the first -1 to hit.

yeah they only have half the store dedicated to them and their entire range is complete - its not like they are missing anything or are likely to not be sold.

I really don't understand GW's fascination with marines, either. So many kits, and most of them are crap on the tabletop.

Martel732 wrote:
I really don't understand GW's fascination with marines, either. So many kits, and most of them are crap on the tabletop.

Rules need adjustment - no argument but they will stick around for sure - its just they have completed the range and starting a new one - Primaris

We marine players get so much more than anyone else - 2 complete Imperium Subfactions - Marines and Primaris Marines, plus the sub-sub factions often have larger model ranges than actual full factions.

Oh and then just to make sure there is an entire extra massive Marine range in 30k - much of which can be used in 40k.

They can stick around and get minimal rule support.

Martel732 wrote:
I really don't understand GW's fascination with marines, either. So many kits, and most of them are crap on the tabletop.

ok, say it with me.

space marines make up 60% of GW sales and you don't understand why GW makes so many?

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I really don't understand GW's fascination with marines, either. So many kits, and most of them are crap on the tabletop.

ok, say it with me.

space marines make up 60% of GW sales and you don't understand why GW makes so many?

Imagine what percentage they'd make up if the rules were good!

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I really don't understand GW's fascination with marines, either. So many kits, and most of them are crap on the tabletop.

ok, say it with me.

space marines make up 60% of GW sales and you don't understand why GW makes so many?

Imagine what percentage they'd make up if the rules were good!

Probably 65-70% my reasoning for this is people play the armies they love and then a small amount of players are meta chasers

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I really don't understand GW's fascination with marines, either. So many kits, and most of them are crap on the tabletop.

ok, say it with me.

space marines make up 60% of GW sales and you don't understand why GW makes so many?

Imagine what percentage they'd make up if the rules were good!

Probably 65-70% my reasoning for this is people play the armies they love and then a small amount of players are meta chasers

I think a lot of people are in my position: i'm playing my Dark Eldar while I wait for marines to get fixed. Once they do, i'll go out and buy 3,000+ points of them. And then I have friends who aren't playing at all until they get fixed. There's thousands of dollar worth of marines waiting to be scooped up in my direct game group alone :(

-1 damage from all weapons would also have the welcome effect of impacting volume of fire weapons more harshly than single-shot ones. Weapon A doing 2 damage with 2 shots would have a larger decrease than weapon B doing 4 damage with 1 shot since A would get double-dip nerfed.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I really don't understand GW's fascination with marines, either. So many kits, and most of them are crap on the tabletop.

ok, say it with me.

space marines make up 60% of GW sales and you don't understand why GW makes so many?

Imagine what percentage they'd make up if the rules were good!

Depends on how big the flavour of the month meta chasing crowd is.

My guess is that it's not even big enough to care about since it's almost always fueled by mini swaps, borrowhammer, or used models.

Lemondish wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I really don't understand GW's fascination with marines, either. So many kits, and most of them are crap on the tabletop.

ok, say it with me.

space marines make up 60% of GW sales and you don't understand why GW makes so many?

Imagine what percentage they'd make up if the rules were good!

Depends on how big the flavour of the month meta chasing crowd is.

My guess is that it's not even big enough to care about since it's almost always fueled by mini swaps, borrowhammer, or used models.

How about the other sorts of players I mentioned? A good 75% of people I used to play with in 5th would like to play again, but are only interested if Marines become decent.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
-1 damage from all weapons would also have the welcome effect of impacting volume of fire weapons more harshly than single-shot ones. Weapon A doing 2 damage with 2 shots would have a larger decrease than weapon B doing 4 damage with 1 shot since A would get double-dip nerfed.

Which is probably a good thing, as generally volume of fire is much better than single shot heavy weapons with how this edition works and how those weapons are costed.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I really don't understand GW's fascination with marines, either. So many kits, and most of them are crap on the tabletop.

ok, say it with me.

space marines make up 60% of GW sales and you don't understand why GW makes so many?

Imagine what percentage they'd make up if the rules were good!

Depends on how big the flavour of the month meta chasing crowd is.

My guess is that it's not even big enough to care about since it's almost always fueled by mini swaps, borrowhammer, or used models.

How about the other sorts of players I mentioned? A good 75% of people I used to play with in 5th would like to play again, but are only interested if Marines become decent.

Also, are GW making so many marines because they're 60% of GW' sales, or are marines 60% of GW's sales because they make so many marines?

ERJAK wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I really don't understand GW's fascination with marines, either. So many kits, and most of them are crap on the tabletop.

ok, say it with me.

space marines make up 60% of GW sales and you don't understand why GW makes so many?

Imagine what percentage they'd make up if the rules were good!

Depends on how big the flavour of the month meta chasing crowd is.

My guess is that it's not even big enough to care about since it's almost always fueled by mini swaps, borrowhammer, or used models.

How about the other sorts of players I mentioned? A good 75% of people I used to play with in 5th would like to play again, but are only interested if Marines become decent.

Also, are GW making so many marines because they're 60% of GW' sales, or are marines 60% of GW's sales because they make so many marines?

Mostly the former. They're the classic heroic human archetype, which is always the most popular faction in any game - regardless of whether it's pushed harder or not.

Humans are the most popular race in WoW. Marines are the most popular faction in 40k.

 fraser1191 wrote:

Breton wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I really wish GW would just drop the kits for these new marines. I want to have them built and painted for when this new rule pops up

The new Kits will spoil the new codex. But yeah, I'd like to get them painted up as well. I'm curious what, if anything the Infiltrators will get for options as we already have Eliminators.

I'm hoping infiltrators get shotguns to be honest. But ones with good damage potential and can target things beyond infantry. I'd say that's the biggest problem with Primaris they're super rigid and have basically S4 for most of their units. Hopefully the shotguns are S5, S6 at half range or something. Ideally wounding T3 infantry on 2

It's going to be weird.. Bolter+Combat Knife/Chainsword will be too similar to Reivers - but fit pretty well in the Crusader Initiate+Neophyte (Intercessor+Infiltrator or Intercessor+Reiver) squad - while Eliminators already have the sniper rifles, making them Scout Bikes or Land Speeder Storm crews would be one hell of a new kit. I already suspect the Suppressors will have a two handed CCW/Thunderhammer type of choice for their other option - they're running out of Jet Pack Primaris to compete with Assault/VV Squads - unless they allow Grapnel+Grav Chute Reivers to have the Jump rules. Shotgun is likely, and the shotgun will suck. Making them all grenadiers with non-1 Grenade per turn weapons i.e. a Grenade Launcher with Assault or Rapid Fire instead of the Grenade type - and multiple different grenade ammo - plasma + Frag, or Melta darts + Shrapnel (to get new stat lines) wouldn't be bad depending on points differential to their original bolt gun. Too expensive or too cheap would both be bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ishagu wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Those are not solutions to current problems.

Until we've seen the next codex you can't claim that anything is or isn't a solution to anything.

Clearly if this is true then we're looking at substantial changes to the book.

Pointing out we should wait and see what is on the full paper before deciding didn't end well for me on the Executioner. I wish you the best of luck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
And suddenly Veteran Intercessors have 4 attacks at AP-1
Or 40 shots at 30“ range with AP-2

These are just two basic implications if these prove to be true.

Must be nice to have vet intercessors in the first place.

All you have to do is pay 1CP for the ability to pay another 1CP per squad before the game, to spend 2CP+ during the game each time. In an Army likely to have two intercessor squads, and 8 CP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ishagu wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
And suddenly Veteran Intercessors have 4 attacks at AP-1
Or 40 shots at 30“ range with AP-2

These are just two basic implications if these prove to be true.

Must be nice to have vet intercessors in the first place.

If the rumor pans out to be true they will be a fearsome and affordable troop unit with significant output. Two sgts with power fists will gave the same output as a full squad of Terminators.
Keep in mind that these rumors are for the main Astartes codex. We don't know if it will be Primaris focused or if it will involve chapters like the BA, DA and SW

I'm not familiar with the rumor you're talking about, but I saw someone mention previously that they'd have 5A with a powerfist. If true, they'll each have just under 1/4 and collectively just under 1/2 of a full Terminator Squad. A full Terminator Squad (assuming they don't ALSO get this rule will have 18(9x2)+3=21 Power Fist Attacks. Two Sgts with 5A each is 10.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So would the D2 - D1 debuff affect ALL astartes units, or just troops? Because I can see this getting abused by making Aggressors like blocking units. Then again, a squad of aggressors surrounding Gman would be an ugly castle...

I already played with that idea, and decided to do Calgar+LT+Apothecary. The Apothecary can't heal Grandpappy Smurf for some stupid oversighted reason, and Calgar+LT is close enough, cheaper, and enjoys the Apothecary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wow, I don't even want to think about Leviathans walking around with the -1 to all damage buff.

To be honest, the problem with Intercessors is the cost, not the survivability. I would much prefer cheaper chaff than harder to kill chaff. I think the D2-D1 would go well on Elite level infantry and vehicles. Oh gawd a full squad of Hellblasters with this...

This feeds into the main problem with Marines, and the "default"/Battalion detachment. Raising it from 1HQ 2Troop to 2HQ 3Troop hit Marines far "harder" than other armies. They realized Detachement CP would hit Knights hard, but I don't think they realized how much of the Marine list would become de rigueur - and not in a good way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:


I think a lot of people are in my position: i'm playing my Dark Eldar while I wait for marines to get fixed. Once they do, i'll go out and buy 3,000+ points of them. And then I have friends who aren't playing at all until they get fixed. There's thousands of dollar worth of marines waiting to be scooped up in my direct game group alone :(

I'd rather play my Dark Eldar, while buying and painting 3,000 points of Marines in preparation for when they fix them. If I wanted until they were fixed, they'd be broken again by the time I had it all bought and painted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:



Also, are GW making so many marines because they're 60% of GW' sales, or are marines 60% of GW's sales because they make so many marines?

You're suggesting people buy Marine kits because all the other armies are sold out and they don't have a choice?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


To be honest, the problem with Intercessors is the cost, not the survivability. I would much prefer cheaper chaff than harder to kill chaff. I think the D2-D1 would go well on Elite level infantry and vehicles. Oh gawd a full squad of Hellblasters with this...

The problem is also calling them chaff. An Elite/Low Model Count army doesn't have room for chaff. The problem with Marines in general is the cost and the survivability. Intercessors are close to accurate. Guard are 4PPM, Normal Marines are 13, Intercessors 17, Scouts 11. They're all over-costed. Scouts coming in at 8 still feels high but pretty close for 1S, 1T, and 1 save. A 10 man Tactical Squad coming in at 100 before upgrades, and 10 man Intercessors at 120-130 will free up a fair bit of points for more army list variety. Terminators with gear are about 35, make them 20-25 - OR - Make Terminator/Aggressor Armor the Toughness version of a power Fist i.e. T (x2) That should drastically reduce their risk from death by a thousand lasgun papercuts. A T8 2W Agressor/Terminator is probably worth the 35ish points.

Breton wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
And suddenly Veteran Intercessors have 4 attacks at AP-1
Or 40 shots at 30“ range with AP-2

These are just two basic implications if these prove to be true.

Must be nice to have vet intercessors in the first place.

All you have to do is pay 1CP for the ability to pay another 1CP per squad before the game, to spend 2CP+ during the game each time. In an Army likely to have two intercessor squads, and 8 CP.

Blood Angels can't have vet intercessors.

Rulvek wrote:

Breton wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
And suddenly Veteran Intercessors have 4 attacks at AP-1
Or 40 shots at 30“ range with AP-2

These are just two basic implications if these prove to be true.

Must be nice to have vet intercessors in the first place.

All you have to do is pay 1CP for the ability to pay another 1CP per squad before the game, to spend 2CP+ during the game each time. In an Army likely to have two intercessor squads, and 8 CP.

Blood Angels can't have vet intercessors.

personally I always thought that was silly. would the indomatus crusade veterns really be broken if BAs, SWs or DAs could take it?

No, they wouldn't. But GW gonna GW. The same thing is affecting the executioner now.

Martel732 wrote:
No, they wouldn't. But GW gonna GW. The same thing is affecting the executioner now.

I expect the executioner will be clarified swiftly eneugh. it'd be the first Primaris unit (well outside of victrix guard) that would be restricted otherwise and it seems an odd choice.

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, they wouldn't. But GW gonna GW. The same thing is affecting the executioner now.

I expect the executioner will be clarified swiftly eneugh. it'd be the first Primaris unit (well outside of victrix guard) that would be restricted otherwise and it seems an odd choice.

Centurions, Storm Talons, and Stormhawks would like a word with you...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though for what it's worth I do expect everyone to get the Executioner.

 Stux wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, they wouldn't. But GW gonna GW. The same thing is affecting the executioner now.

I expect the executioner will be clarified swiftly eneugh. it'd be the first Primaris unit (well outside of victrix guard) that would be restricted otherwise and it seems an odd choice.

Centurions, Storm Talons, and Stormhawks would like a word with you...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though for what it's worth I do expect everyone to get the Executioner.

Centurions, Storm Talons and Stormhawks are primaris units? I must have missed that. what FAQ was it in?

BrianDavion wrote:

I expect the executioner will be clarified swiftly eneugh. it'd be the first Primaris unit (well outside of victrix guard) that would be restricted otherwise and it seems an odd choice.

Given that the entire Phobos line (excepting Rievers) is still locked out from Deathwatch players, dont bet against GW rules stupidity when it comes to non-codex Marines.

Martel732 wrote:
No, they wouldn't. But GW gonna GW. The same thing is affecting the executioner now.

BeCaUsE ThEy DiFfErEnT ArMiEs BuY oUr UnnEcESsaRY mUltIple MaRiNe CoDIceS!!!

BrianDavion wrote:

 Stux wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, they wouldn't. But GW gonna GW. The same thing is affecting the executioner now.

I expect the executioner will be clarified swiftly eneugh. it'd be the first Primaris unit (well outside of victrix guard) that would be restricted otherwise and it seems an odd choice.

Centurions, Storm Talons, and Stormhawks would like a word with you...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though for what it's worth I do expect everyone to get the Executioner.

Centurions, Storm Talons and Stormhawks are primaris units? I must have missed that. what FAQ was it in?

They aren't, but they really should be. Getting the Primaris treatment (aka +1 wound) would put Centurions in a spot where an average Lascannon shot doesn't kill one and Primaris wouldn't mind a really fast transport even if it does have a lot of the same issues as a Repulsor.

 Ishagu wrote:
Valrak just shared this rumour. He was sent the info.

"Marines will gain a rule included in the new Angel of Death rule, SM will gain +1A during the first fight phase or something like that. But that's not all, we have something like the Deathwatch Doctrine! At the start of each turn/round, we can choose one, and one of them is awesome, a bonus of -1 to AP in the shooting or fighting phase"

Who is this Valrak, and how reliable he is? To me this seems decently powerful. First round of combat is often decisive, so having an extra attack then is pretty significant. Also, constant AP bonus is a rather big deal; in fact all this seems too good to be true.

Also, this should probably be posted in the rumours section.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Valrak just shared this rumour. He was sent the info.

"Marines will gain a rule included in the new Angel of Death rule, SM will gain +1A during the first fight phase or something like that. But that's not all, we have something like the Deathwatch Doctrine! At the start of each turn/round, we can choose one, and one of them is awesome, a bonus of -1 to AP in the shooting or fighting phase"

Who is this Valrak, and how reliable he is? To me this seems decently powerful. First round of combat is often decisive, so having an extra attack then is pretty significant. Also, constant AP bonus is a rather big deal; in fact all this seems too good to be true.

Also, this should probably be posted in the rumours section.

First rule of Valrak, don't talk about Valrak....