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Spoletta wrote:
IMHO the best chapter trait went to salamanders.

Vehicles with rerolls?
AP-1 immunity?

Everyone still wants to be clustered around HQ units though and rerolls are easy to get with Dreads too.

The best one by far is Iron Hands, which got the equivalent of the Death Skulls treatment.

Spoletta wrote:
IMHO the best chapter trait went to salamanders.

Vehicles with rerolls?
AP-1 immunity?

Yeah I am a big fan of this one. I think it's main strength is that it's ALWAYS on and ALWAYS working. You will never not benefit from melee and shooting re-rolls or ap-1 immunity. All those re-rolls will add up even on high rof weapons. It's up there with the Iron Hand tactic for me.


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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
IMHO the best chapter trait went to salamanders.

Vehicles with rerolls?
AP-1 immunity?

Everyone still wants to be clustered around HQ units though and rerolls are easy to get with Dreads too.

The best one by far is Iron Hands, which got the equivalent of the Death Skulls treatment.

Well remember you can re-roll any to hit and any to wound which is really solid even with re-roll auras. Also note potential amazing synergy with banner shooting, but I am not sure how the RAW will work out with the current wording. I do agree with you though that the Iron Hands have a very solid tactic. I'm a big fan of it.

Spoletta wrote:
IMHO the best chapter trait went to salamanders.

Vehicles with rerolls?
AP-1 immunity?

It's not bad. Iron hands are the best. I am playing blue iron hands now.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Soooo...these apply to all units...

Which is how it should've been in the first place. Granted I'd rather they taken the Guard route where the vehicles get a different benefit.

I'm curious to see if CSM will see updates on this level. Probably not for a while considering this post about BA.

WS trait giving bikes assault/heavy to hit penalty exemption but din't actually have many options that it benefits...

Primaris bikes to go with a biker Khan incoming, maybe?

I think the sallies and Iron Hands got the best ones here both with strengths and weaknesses, but I think it's also important to note that all the tactics are good in their field. Fists are really good in their field and templars get a lot of help making sure they can get into melee when the time comes. None of them really strike me as bad and they all fit their style.

I think what this will come down to however will be the supplements. Ultra may get amazing stuff in theirs and with Guilly they can always be top tier off of his back. Or maybe Iron Hands will get even better goodies. Who knows. Regardless I'm very eager to see what the supplements have in store.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Chapter tactics for marines just got twice as good or better than their previous incarnations.

LOL yeah and the worst tactic didn't change. How many people were playing Ultramarines for the chapter tactics. In fact. The Ultras chapter tactic is so bad and useless that people even break the detachments because it does notihng.

No reason not to play iron hands now. Your best units get 6+ FNP / overwatch on 5's and don't degrade. LOL.

It's fine - I'll play blue iron hands. Could care less about that.

Yeah and with the 100% nerf to Gman happening I'm not expecting UMs to stick around more. It's Iron Hands all the way for the most part

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Soooo...these apply to all units...

Which is how it should've been in the first place. Granted I'd rather they taken the Guard route where the vehicles get a different benefit.

I'm curious to see if CSM will see updates on this level. Probably not for a while considering this post about BA.

At this point in time I would expect the other two dedicated Legions to get their own codices which might have the slight revamp. After that who really knows? Black Legion basically got their "supplement" from Vigilus but saw no update on their ghastly bad Trait.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Soooo...these apply to all units...

Which is how it should've been in the first place. Granted I'd rather they taken the Guard route where the vehicles get a different benefit.

I'm curious to see if CSM will see updates on this level. Probably not for a while considering this post about BA.

At this point in time I would expect the other two dedicated Legions to get their own codices which might have the slight revamp. After that who really knows? Black Legion basically got their "supplement" from Vigilus but saw no update on their ghastly bad Trait.

It's true theirs is gastly bad. However - they have the only access to a reroll all hits aura out of all of chaos and Abaddon is exceptionally good and fills and HQ choice. To go along with some of the best starts in the game.

Am I the only one to look at the White Scars trait and immediately think of how well that combos with Master of the Vanguard?

Also, that update to the Stalker Bolt Rifle makes me happy. Not as happy as a bump to S5, D2 would have, but I'll take what I can get.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Soooo...these apply to all units...

Which is how it should've been in the first place. Granted I'd rather they taken the Guard route where the vehicles get a different benefit.

I'm curious to see if CSM will see updates on this level. Probably not for a while considering this post about BA.

At this point in time I would expect the other two dedicated Legions to get their own codices which might have the slight revamp. After that who really knows? Black Legion basically got their "supplement" from Vigilus but saw no update on their ghastly bad Trait.

It's true theirs is gastly bad. However - they have the only access to a reroll all hits aura out of all of chaos and Abaddon is exceptionally good and fills and HQ choice. To go along with some of the best starts in the game.

Then price Abigail appropriately (and he already is, so...)

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Chapter tactics for marines just got twice as good or better than their previous incarnations.

LOL yeah and the worst tactic didn't change. How many people were playing Ultramarines for the chapter tactics. In fact. The Ultras chapter tactic is so bad and useless that people even break the detachments because it does notihng.

No reason not to play iron hands now. Your best units get 6+ FNP / overwatch on 5's and don't degrade. LOL.

It's fine - I'll play blue iron hands. Could care less about that.

Yeah and with the 100% nerf to Gman happening I'm not expecting UMs to stick around more. It's Iron Hands all the way for the most part

Will actually be a nice change of pace to not have to spend 400 points of tax to get decent rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Soooo...these apply to all units...

Which is how it should've been in the first place. Granted I'd rather they taken the Guard route where the vehicles get a different benefit.

I'm curious to see if CSM will see updates on this level. Probably not for a while considering this post about BA.

At this point in time I would expect the other two dedicated Legions to get their own codices which might have the slight revamp. After that who really knows? Black Legion basically got their "supplement" from Vigilus but saw no update on their ghastly bad Trait.

It's true theirs is gastly bad. However - they have the only access to a reroll all hits aura out of all of chaos and Abaddon is exceptionally good and fills and HQ choice. To go along with some of the best starts in the game.

Then price Abigail appropriately (and he already is, so...)

BL is miles ahead of Ultras. No point in even debating this. That could change with new space marine strats - we will see. It's likely Gman is getting nerfed though. He really should be dropped about 100 points. Because you are losing a lot of stats just for being ultas.

Martel732 wrote:
NO, they haven't. Bobby G is soulcrushing, and the only marine list archetype performing consistently. And now their vehicles fall back and shoot.

Bobby G does not perform miracles. If you clump enough units around him to get his points back you'll lose the mission. He typically hangs about with two units near the back or centre.

Think I'd rather bring in some extra firepower with the salamanders trait and get the free re rolls for each unit and much better defence.

PS: Iron Hands and White Scars are excellent too, and Imperial Fists became even more nasty with their Vigilus detachments!

White Scars really needed to retain the ability to fall back and assault. While the advance and charge is strictly better, the bike bonus sucks.


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 Xenomancers wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Chapter tactics for marines just got twice as good or better than their previous incarnations.

LOL yeah and the worst tactic didn't change. How many people were playing Ultramarines for the chapter tactics. In fact. The Ultras chapter tactic is so bad and useless that people even break the detachments because it does notihng.

No reason not to play iron hands now. Your best units get 6+ FNP / overwatch on 5's and don't degrade. LOL.

It's fine - I'll play blue iron hands. Could care less about that.

Yeah and with the 100% nerf to Gman happening I'm not expecting UMs to stick around more. It's Iron Hands all the way for the most part

Will actually be a nice change of pace to not have to spend 400 points of tax to get decent rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Soooo...these apply to all units...

Which is how it should've been in the first place. Granted I'd rather they taken the Guard route where the vehicles get a different benefit.

I'm curious to see if CSM will see updates on this level. Probably not for a while considering this post about BA.

At this point in time I would expect the other two dedicated Legions to get their own codices which might have the slight revamp. After that who really knows? Black Legion basically got their "supplement" from Vigilus but saw no update on their ghastly bad Trait.

It's true theirs is gastly bad. However - they have the only access to a reroll all hits aura out of all of chaos and Abaddon is exceptionally good and fills and HQ choice. To go along with some of the best starts in the game.

Then price Abigail appropriately (and he already is, so...)

BL is miles ahead of Ultras. No point in even debating this. That could change with new space marine strats - we will see. It's likely Gman is getting nerfed though. He really should be dropped about 100 points. Because you are losing a lot of stats just for being ultas.

Absolutely not in terms of traits. The only reason they do well is because of non-Marine units being better than the non-Marine units we have like Razorbacks and such.

Seriously ignore the Daemon Princes and the Disco Lords for a moment and seriously consider what you're talking about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ishagu wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
NO, they haven't. Bobby G is soulcrushing, and the only marine list archetype performing consistently. And now their vehicles fall back and shoot.

Bobby G does not perform miracles. If you clump enough units around him to get his points back you'll lose the mission. He typically hangs about with two units near the back or centre.

Think I'd rather bring in some extra firepower with the salamanders trait and get the free re rolls for each unit and much better defence.

PS: Iron Hands and White Scars are excellent too, and Imperial Fists became even more nasty with their Vigilus detachments!

You don't lose the Mission because your opponent's dead units can't hold objectives surprisingly.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
White Scars really needed to retain the ability to fall back and assault.

They did.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
White Scars really needed to retain the ability to fall back and assault.

They did.

I must've cut that bit out in my mind. I thought the totality was those two things.

Thanks for correcting me

^It's a lot to take in.

@Slayer-Fan

What is your experience with the game? Because my extensive experience at the highest level of play indicates it's easy to hide units on properly laid out table and score plenty of objectives with ease.

Tourney tables vary greatly. There is no "properly laid out". It's the whim of the TO. Sometimes you can hide, sometimes you can't. Counting on turning off all your opponent's shooting for free consistently seems like a bad plan.

That being said, looks like you were right about the marine codex. I would have bet on another CSM 2.0 job. GW is really hard to predict.

Tell me about the last one you played in, Martel.

I played in one yesterday against the ETC teams competing in the championship in a few days. You think you have more experience than me?

How many games have you played this month?

I didn't say I had more experience. Are you saying that tournament tables don't greatly vary based on the TO?

I stream way more than I play in. Does that mean I don't get to observe the tables? Come on, you should know better.

as for Ultramarines remember guys chapter tactics aren't the ONLY thing going here. there are also stratigiums psykic powers (every first founding is going to get their own psykic powers now too) relics etc. so we don't have the full info yet. it's possiable that we could get a look at the ultramarines supplement and promptly decide Ultramarines are the most over powered chapter.
I honestly kinda doubt this is goin to be the case. the Ultramarines are getting the first supplement (I bet theirs was written before the white scars one too) so will likely be weaker then the others. but the fact remains we can't judge just yet

@Martel

I'm saying you're lecturing an awful lot of people about the game.
I'm saying I question your knowledge and experience on the matter.

Maybe stop lecturing about things you don't fully know.

Pretty sure I've seen what I've seen regarding table cover. In fact, in some of the streams, the players/commentators have even pointed out "not too many places to hide on this table!".

So I'm just listening to them when you get down to it.

It's also a double edged sword, especially for armies with lots of heavy weapons that don't ignore heavy.

Until there are universal guidelines, expect the unexpected with terrain.

 Ishagu wrote:
@Slayer-Fan

What is your experience with the game? Because my extensive experience at the highest level of play indicates it's easy to hide units on properly laid out table and score plenty of objectives with ease.

I've been playing since 4th with a short break during 5th, but I still kept up with the rules.

Hoping for some sort of Deep Strike/Drop Pod stratagem that boosts assaults to combo with the BT Chapter Tactic. It'd actually be fluffy, too!

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Hoping for some sort of Deep Strike/Drop Pod stratagem that boosts assaults to combo with the BT Chapter Tactic. It'd actually be fluffy, too!

drop pods should DEFINATLY be a stratagium not a unit in this edition.

 Xenomancers wrote:
BL is miles ahead of Ultras. No point in even debating this. That could change with new space marine strats - we will see. It's likely Gman is getting nerfed though. He really should be dropped about 100 points. Because you are losing a lot of stats just for being ultas.

You're not allowed to just say something insanely wrong and act like you're right.

Black Legion as compared to Ultramarines, just looking at the chapter tactics...

Both get +1 Leadership. Slightly more valuable on Chaos Marines, as they lack ATSKNF, but basically irrelevant in 90% of games.
Ultras get fall back and shoot at -1.
Black Legion get advance and treat RF guns as Assault of the same number.

So, under the just so incredibly common situation where an enemy is more than 30" but within 36", and you roll high enough on your advance roll, you can get less than half the firepower you got had you stood still and targeted something within 24" (since you get half the shots and are shooting at -1).

But, you know, that really niche situation where you fall back from an enemy unit, instead of getting to do literally nothing, you can still shoot, just with a -1.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
BL is miles ahead of Ultras. No point in even debating this. That could change with new space marine strats - we will see. It's likely Gman is getting nerfed though. He really should be dropped about 100 points. Because you are losing a lot of stats just for being ultas.

You're not allowed to just say something insanely wrong and act like you're right.

Black Legion as compared to Ultramarines, just looking at the chapter tactics...

Both get +1 Leadership. Slightly more valuable on Chaos Marines, as they lack ATSKNF, but basically irrelevant in 90% of games.
Ultras get fall back and shoot at -1.
Black Legion get advance and treat RF guns as Assault of the same number.

So, under the just so incredibly common situation where an enemy is more than 30" but within 36", and you roll high enough on your advance roll, you can get less than half the firepower you got had you stood still and targeted something within 24" (since you get half the shots and are shooting at -1).

But, you know, that really niche situation where you fall back from an enemy unit, instead of getting to do literally nothing, you can still shoot, just with a -1.

But marines shouldnt have to fall back to kill things!

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
BL is miles ahead of Ultras. No point in even debating this. That could change with new space marine strats - we will see. It's likely Gman is getting nerfed though. He really should be dropped about 100 points. Because you are losing a lot of stats just for being ultas.

You're not allowed to just say something insanely wrong and act like you're right.

Black Legion as compared to Ultramarines, just looking at the chapter tactics...

Both get +1 Leadership. Slightly more valuable on Chaos Marines, as they lack ATSKNF, but basically irrelevant in 90% of games.
Ultras get fall back and shoot at -1.
Black Legion get advance and treat RF guns as Assault of the same number.

So, under the just so incredibly common situation where an enemy is more than 30" but within 36", and you roll high enough on your advance roll, you can get less than half the firepower you got had you stood still and targeted something within 24" (since you get half the shots and are shooting at -1).

But, you know, that really niche situation where you fall back from an enemy unit, instead of getting to do literally nothing, you can still shoot, just with a -1.

They both have situational useless traits - essentially they can be ignored because they are so situational. Both have a cog unit which the entire army revolves around. BL cog is cheaper - provides more utility (abadon is an HQ which apart from being 160 points cheaper - allows at least 1 more powerful unit to be feidled in a BL army comapred to Ultras) - Abadon actually out beatsticks gman too - gmans aura does more damage when unsupported but against minus to hit Abadons aura picks up a lot of ground. BL and CSM strats take them well beyond what Gman can muster. Shooting twice...+1 to wound is a lot better than rerolling all your wounds. They also have double moves +1 to hits too. Current space marines have dick for stratagems. That might change but we will see.