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 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
why is it that space marines can't get anything without chaos players demanding they get it too, in addition to all their other stuff? I play both CSMs and regular marines, I'd like to see chaos get something similer to this sure but I don't want an exact copy.

Maybe a "gift of the gods" ability that you can choose at the beginning of the game or something

Tomatoe - tomato, potatoe - potato. I didn't think we were getting Angels of Death initially, but GW has created the expectation now, the rest is just conjecture about how deep the rabbit hole goes.

There is no reason to assume you wouldn't get angels of death. They are literally the same units in most cases. Choas might not get access to doctrines kind of like marines don't get access to god specific abilities (thought granted they aren't very good) that would be very easy to fix in a PDF update. For example - nurgle could give ignore ap-1 and slanesh could give +2 movement).

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Why would Chaos get Doctrines when they don't follow the Codex Astartes? :O

Because legions might also had doctrines?
The main reason for the split was to stop legion sized battleforces turning and their whole support infrastructure that is vastly more complex then a chapters.

Also a chapter can be in a pinch swamped to death with guardsmen (of high enough quality) a legion is a whole other issue.

Legions didn't have doctrines along the lines of the Codex, they had their own fighting styles which were covered by traits.

Combat Doctrines show how a Codex Chapter fights, the thing that ties all the differing chapter tactic armies in Codex: Space Marines together. Unlike Chaos, that bond over warp dust and spikes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_doctrine

I see someone never had been forced to make NCO

DAMN YOU SWISS STATE*angry fistshaking.

Okay, and what does that have to do with Doctrines that show how Codex Complaint chapters fight?

Obviously all militaries have doctrines, but that has nothing to do with these. Also, sarcastic facepalm emoji.

Also, the article says:

Veterans of previous editions may remember that the Ultramarines had a form of this ability a number of years back. Now, it doesn’t just apply to them, but to all of the Chapters (and any successor Chapters you’ve created) that use the rules from Codex: Space Marines. Here’s how it works…

AGAIN: ANY ORGANIZED MILITARY FORCE USES DOCTRINES:
IW, WB, BL, AL are all still highly ORGANIZED FORCES:

And also had mirror traits (well except wb but Wb suck)

So excuse me but that is BS

They also don't follow the CODEX ASTARTES.

These are for Chapters that follow the CODEX ASTARTES. Not just legion styles of fighting, but the CODEX ASTARTES.

Do the Iron Warriors or Alpha Legion follow the CODEX ASTARTES?

No.

No but the scourged, Purge, Flawless, RC, etc still do to an extent because that is all they know?
The argument still makes no sense and i remain adamant about it beeing BS

Holy cow man here's your award for the most passionate person here

Seriously alpha legion doesn't care about the Codex Astartes, world eaters might eat it but I doubt they choose to fall back and shoot the chopy guys and chop the shooty guys they chop all the guys all the time, ergo no codex astartes combat doctrines!

Sure they have their own doctrines. Yes okay as do non codex compliant chapters but right now for this release we are talking about codex compliant chapters that use the Codex Astartes for there tactics, therefore they would use combat doctrines from the Codex Astartes

So until CA comes out to dish out the buffs and nerfs or a little FAQ you're gonna have to sit and wait or walk into GW headquarters and give them a piece of your mind yourself cause nobody here has any sway there

Not Online!!! wrote:

Beta bolter rule article description?
Remember that?

You mean this one that explicitly allows Deathwatch to use Beta Bolters?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/21/21st-jan-introducing-better-beta-boltersgw-homepage-post-4/

The hiccup was with one very specific datasheet, namely Bikers and Terminators inside mixed Veteran squads.

Sterling191 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Beta bolter rule article description?
Remember that?

You mean this one that explicitly allows Deathwatch to use Beta Bolters?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/21/21st-jan-introducing-better-beta-boltersgw-homepage-post-4/

The hiccup was with one very specific datasheet, namely Bikers and Terminators inside mixed Veteran squads.

No the article stated that it would double the firrate, which it does not.

Not Online!!! wrote:

No the article stated that it would double the firrate, which it does not.

It said nothing of the kind, and your inability to comprehend the rule doesnt change that fact.

 Elbows wrote:
I haven't played 8th in a while, decided to take a break. I think I'm probably actually done at this point. Back to playing 2nd edition.

So you aren't involved and have decided to make a decision based on incomplete information to continue being uninvolved?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ishagu wrote:
The tears of Chaos players are creating a new Chaos God.

The God of Endless complaining.
I jest, I jest

I think this is the root of the complaining. People aren't getting something for their army so they feel left out in the cold and therefore feel entitled to tear this down before its out.

Sterling191 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

No the article stated that it would double the firrate, which it does not.

It said nothing of the kind, and your inability to comprehend the rule doesnt change that fact.

I meant the article that stated it would double the firerate even though the rules paragraf in it clearly stated that bolter discipline only would allow for max range rapidfire.

Sterling191 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, again, the post states "All sub factions" but the list provided doesn't include BR, DW, GK, or a few other cannon factions. Do we go by the list they gave us, or do I start painting up my DW Eliminators?

Why would you assume that Deathwatch would get a unit when the list you're quoting explicitly indicates they wont?

Because the link states "all sub factions". That includes BA, DA, and SW. I don't understand how DW are different than DA. Honestly help me out here. GW is essentially saying specialty makes you a solo faction. I would submit that Space wolves are WAY more of a Solo-faction than DW is. At least DW is still human.

Let me repeat my question. The article in question tells you, in no uncertain terms, in a convenient list format, which factions gain access to these new units. Furthermore, it explicitly points out which unit Deathwatch will get access to.

Why do you think Deathwatch will get access to anything beyond the Repulsor Executioner when you are in no uncertain terms told they will not?

Here's the actual quote:

So, with all this exciting news of new units, we’re going to take a moment just to explore how the new codex affects Space Marine Chapters of the First Founding who are not strictly codex-compliant – specifically the Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels

It doesnt say what you want it to say.

I don't want to make you any angrier than you already seem, but this is where:

"Everyone Else If you were concerned about the rest of the [b]non-codex chapters, don’t worry – they are ALL getting access to this crazyness..."

The list is handy, but GW being GW, and having to write Day ONE FAQs about this sort of thing, might have forgotten that there are MORE than 3 non-codex sub factions. Look if this is the case, then we need to address this stuff properly.

From now on, GK, DW, and Blood Ravens are a SEPARATE FACTION. Obviously this is a little hyperbolic, but still. Either address this feth properly, or stop being surprised when people ask if they can take it. Because right now, there is literally nothing saying I this stupid new tank Purple, call it Buttstallion, and give it DW rules.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I haven't played 8th in a while, decided to take a break. I think I'm probably actually done at this point. Back to playing 2nd edition.

So you aren't involved and have decided to make a decision based on incomplete information to continue being uninvolved?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ishagu wrote:
The tears of Chaos players are creating a new Chaos God.

The God of Endless complaining.
I jest, I jest

I think this is the root of the complaining. People aren't getting something for their army so they feel left out in the cold and therefore feel entitled to tear this down before its out.

To be fair....they did choose the wrong side . More seriously. Everyone should be crying about this. These SM rules are nutts. Should have just listened to Xeno....I just wanted up to 10-20% drops on most marine units. You guys laughed. Now look. Marines are OP AF.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, again, the post states "All sub factions" but the list provided doesn't include BR, DW, GK, or a few other cannon factions. Do we go by the list they gave us, or do I start painting up my DW Eliminators?

Why would you assume that Deathwatch would get a unit when the list you're quoting explicitly indicates they wont?

Because the link states "all sub factions". That includes BA, DA, and SW. I don't understand how DW are different than DA. Honestly help me out here. GW is essentially saying specialty makes you a solo faction. I would submit that Space wolves are WAY more of a Solo-faction than DW is. At least DW is still human.

Let me repeat my question. The article in question tells you, in no uncertain terms, in a convenient list format, which factions gain access to these new units. Furthermore, it explicitly points out which unit Deathwatch will get access to.

Why do you think Deathwatch will get access to anything beyond the Repulsor Executioner when you are in no uncertain terms told they will not?

Here's the actual quote:

So, with all this exciting news of new units, we’re going to take a moment just to explore how the new codex affects Space Marine Chapters of the First Founding who are not strictly codex-compliant – specifically the Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels

It doesnt say what you want it to say.

I don't want to make you any angrier than you already seem, but this is where:

"Everyone Else If you were concerned about the rest of the [b]non-codex chapters, don’t worry – they are ALL getting access to this crazyness..."

The list is handy, but GW being GW, and having to write Day ONE FAQs about this sort of thing, might have forgotten that there are MORE than 3 non-codex sub factions. Look if this is the case, then we need to address this stuff properly.

From now on, GK, DW, and Blood Ravens are a SEPARATE FACTION. Obviously this is a little hyperbolic, but still. Either address this feth properly, or stop being surprised when people ask if they can take it. Because right now, there is literally nothing saying I this stupid new tank Purple, call it Buttstallion, and give it DW rules.

blood ravens are a codex space marines army, they get whats in codex space marines. or did I somehow miss them getting their codex sometime in the last week,.

Death watch don't get everything automaticly because of their rules. it's easy to slot a squad of infiltrators into codex space wolves. apply the space wolf chapter tactic, and done.
Death watch are a specal army with unique squad structure and access to special issue ammo. GW is going to need to work out how to intergrate the new infantry into that, as well as how their weapons will wiork with SIA. and that means GW needs to be careful. it'll be FAQed in, if not put in a entirely new death watch codex. but the reasons for excluding death watch make PERFECT sense.

 Xenomancers wrote:
To be fair....they did choose the wrong side . More seriously. Everyone should be crying about this. These SM rules are nutts. Should have just listened to Xeno....I just wanted up to 10-20% drops on most marine units. You guys laughed. Now look. Marines are OP AF.

Point drops to that level would have been a terrible idea. And then calling it OP AF on the other end of this is just...I dunno man...

What if we waited until the codex was out with points, and someone has played a game before we declare everything OP?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I haven't played 8th in a while, decided to take a break. I think I'm probably actually done at this point. Back to playing 2nd edition.

So you aren't involved and have decided to make a decision based on incomplete information to continue being uninvolved?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ishagu wrote:
The tears of Chaos players are creating a new Chaos God.

The God of Endless complaining.
I jest, I jest

I think this is the root of the complaining. People aren't getting something for their army so they feel left out in the cold and therefore feel entitled to tear this down before its out.

To be fair....they did choose the wrong side . More seriously. Everyone should be crying about this. These SM rules are nutts. Should have just listened to Xeno....I just wanted up to 10-20% drops on most marine units. You guys laughed. Now look. Marines are OP AF.

Maybe, 3 intercessor squads clocks in at 255, that's the cheapest the troops slot can be (for Primaris only) every other unit is more expensive, we're probably looking at at most 20 units depending on if transportation eats up your list. I actually think old marines are going to be on the rise again, most of these buffs are things we all complained about. Extra attack, can put ap on the boltgun etc. That being said intercessors also got these buffs so there's that

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
To be fair....they did choose the wrong side . More seriously. Everyone should be crying about this. These SM rules are nutts. Should have just listened to Xeno....I just wanted up to 10-20% drops on most marine units. You guys laughed. Now look. Marines are OP AF.

Point drops to that level would have been a terrible idea. And then calling it OP AF on the other end of this is just...I dunno man...

There is no quicker way to derail a thread than to bring up points. Watch this:

AHEM..

GUARDMEN SQUADS ARE OVERCOSTED!

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
To be fair....they did choose the wrong side . More seriously. Everyone should be crying about this. These SM rules are nutts. Should have just listened to Xeno....I just wanted up to 10-20% drops on most marine units. You guys laughed. Now look. Marines are OP AF.

Point drops to that level would have been a terrible idea. And then calling it OP AF on the other end of this is just...I dunno man...

10- 20 % is on average 2 pts on a marine body.
i can't really see how that would've been a problem

It's also in range of the terminator drop.

I must say in this case I can understand CSM players raising an eyebrow on the SM update. They received their own 2.0 codex very recently and nothing was changed about the legion tactics even though some of them were the exact same like the loyalists that now got proper buffs.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
To be fair....they did choose the wrong side . More seriously. Everyone should be crying about this. These SM rules are nutts. Should have just listened to Xeno....I just wanted up to 10-20% drops on most marine units. You guys laughed. Now look. Marines are OP AF.

Point drops to that level would have been a terrible idea. And then calling it OP AF on the other end of this is just...I dunno man...

There is no quicker way to derail a thread than to bring up points. Watch this:

AHEM..

GUARDMEN SQUADS ARE OVERCOSTED!

You did it wrong, you should've said IS are overcosted x3 in a mirror with some candles and a pentagramm nearby.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
To be fair....they did choose the wrong side . More seriously. Everyone should be crying about this. These SM rules are nutts. Should have just listened to Xeno....I just wanted up to 10-20% drops on most marine units. You guys laughed. Now look. Marines are OP AF.

Point drops to that level would have been a terrible idea. And then calling it OP AF on the other end of this is just...I dunno man...

10- 20 % is on average 2 pts on a marine body.
i can't really see how that would've been a problem

It's also in range of the terminator drop.

Terminators got a big drop, because they're forced into fists. CSM terminators did not drop the same way.

11 point marines would be silly and not at all as interesting as what we have now.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
This does make upping cultists to 5 ppm seem even more ridiculous now.

Which should never have happened in the first place.

Agreed, but they had to try to make Chaos Marines the focus again...

The ideal option would have been "Cultist units do not take up the mandatory Troop slots in a Detachment".

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
To be fair....they did choose the wrong side . More seriously. Everyone should be crying about this. These SM rules are nutts. Should have just listened to Xeno....I just wanted up to 10-20% drops on most marine units. You guys laughed. Now look. Marines are OP AF.

Point drops to that level would have been a terrible idea. And then calling it OP AF on the other end of this is just...I dunno man...

10- 20 % is on average 2 pts on a marine body.
i can't really see how that would've been a problem

It's also in range of the terminator drop.

Terminators got a big drop, because they're forced into fists. CSM terminators did not drop the same way.

11 point marines would be silly and not at all as interesting as what we have now.

Cheapest Terminator before: 35 pts.
Cheapest CSM terminator no: 29 pts.

Difference 6 pts. or 14.28 %

Soo again. Would it be that unthinkable for you now?

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
This does make upping cultists to 5 ppm seem even more ridiculous now.

Which should never have happened in the first place.

Agreed, but they had to try to make Chaos Marines the focus again...

The ideal option would have been "Cultist units do not take up the mandatory Troop slots in a Detachment".

Or they just make Chosen the base Troop choice instead of trying to represent Renegades options in the first place. Cultists vs Chosen vs Cult Marines with Vet stats is actually a choice to make.

2 points off an intercessor or it gets +1 attack and -1 AP and 3 chapter tactics? Give me a break dude. These changes are far more powerful than anything I ever suggested. I'm going to suffer for it too. All in 9th and 10th edition everyone is gonna cry about how OP marines were in 8th. When for 2 years of the eddition they were the worst army in the game and everyone stopped playing the game because the end of the eddition became a joke. Been here before man. It was called 7th edition.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
This does make upping cultists to 5 ppm seem even more ridiculous now.

Which should never have happened in the first place.

Agreed, but they had to try to make Chaos Marines the focus again...

The ideal option would have been "Cultist units do not take up the mandatory Troop slots in a Detachment".

Or they just make Chosen the base Troop choice instead of trying to represent Renegades options in the first place. Cultists vs Chosen vs Cult Marines with Vet stats is actually a choice to make.

Not really no, everyone would still take the Cultists orcult marines.
Chosen are just 1 pts more expensive csms with a free chainsword for their trouble.

Not Online!!! wrote:


Cheapest Terminator before: 35 pts.
Cheapest CSM terminator no: 29 pts.

Difference 6 pts. or 14.28 %

A completely dishonest comparison, because they didn't have chainaxes before.

 Xenomancers wrote:
2 points off an intercessor or it gets +1 attack and -1 AP and 3 chapter tactics? Give me a break dude. These changes are far more powerful than anything I ever suggested. I'm going to suffer for it too. All in 9th and 10th edition everyone is gonna cry about how OP marines were in 8th. When for 2 years of the eddition they were the worst army in the game and everyone stopped playing the game because the end of the eddition became a joke. Been here before man. It was called 7th edition.

why formations back asell.
it just now is called special detachments.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


Cheapest Terminator before: 35 pts.
Cheapest CSM terminator no: 29 pts.

Difference 6 pts. or 14.28 %

A completely dishonest comparison, because they didn't have chainaxes before.

As dishonest as you not considering the pricedrop in, let's face it, unused melee options that got replaced with a cheaper option?
Try again.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
This does make upping cultists to 5 ppm seem even more ridiculous now.

Which should never have happened in the first place.

Agreed, but they had to try to make Chaos Marines the focus again...

The ideal option would have been "Cultist units do not take up the mandatory Troop slots in a Detachment".

Or they just make Chosen the base Troop choice instead of trying to represent Renegades options in the first place. Cultists vs Chosen vs Cult Marines with Vet stats is actually a choice to make.

Not really no, everyone would still take the Cultists orcult marines.
Chosen are just 1 pts more expensive csms with a free chainsword for their trouble.

Free attack AND Chainsword, LD (not worth anything, granted), and the ability to be loaded to the brim with Special Weapons or Combi-Bolters. Power Weapons really shouldn't take up a slot on them and should just replace Chainswords as necessary but I digress.

 Xenomancers wrote:
2 points off an intercessor or it gets +1 attack and -1 AP and 3 chapter tactics? Give me a break dude. These changes are far more powerful than anything I ever suggested. I'm going to suffer for it too. All in 9th and 10th edition everyone is gonna cry about how OP marines were in 8th. When for 2 years of the eddition they were the worst army in the game and everyone stopped playing the game because the end of the eddition became a joke. Been here before man. It was called 7th edition.

Wait for the SW update to make it on par with vanilla marine somewhere in the 2020. And then there will be 9ed in a couple month to add salt in the injury. Thanks for waiting SW players...

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
2 points off an intercessor or it gets +1 attack and -1 AP and 3 chapter tactics? Give me a break dude. These changes are far more powerful than anything I ever suggested. I'm going to suffer for it too. All in 9th and 10th edition everyone is gonna cry about how OP marines were in 8th. When for 2 years of the eddition they were the worst army in the game and everyone stopped playing the game because the end of the eddition became a joke. Been here before man. It was called 7th edition.

why formations back asell.
it just now is called special detachments.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


Cheapest Terminator before: 35 pts.
Cheapest CSM terminator no: 29 pts.

Difference 6 pts. or 14.28 %

A completely dishonest comparison, because they didn't have chainaxes before.

As dishonest as you not considering the pricedrop in, let's face it, unused melee options that got replaced with a cheaper option?
Try again.

FWIW, those specialist detachments can take up a hefty amount of CP.

 Xenomancers wrote:
2 points off an intercessor or it gets +1 attack and -1 AP and 3 chapter tactics? Give me a break dude. These changes are far more powerful than anything I ever suggested. I'm going to suffer for it too. All in 9th and 10th edition everyone is gonna cry about how OP marines were in 8th. When for 2 years of the eddition they were the worst army in the game and everyone stopped playing the game because the end of the eddition became a joke. Been here before man. It was called 7th edition.

Do you think nothing has changed about GW's approach since 7th?

+1A matters only some of the time.
Each chapter got an additional bit added - and marine tactics were panned as awful, so...
-1AP to infantry only likely. I'm not sure how AP4 plasma changes the world. AP1 bolters and chainswords puts marines back to where people were asking them to be.

on a w 1 model?
And all of this costs points.
And CP, huge ammounts of CP
and you just made the most efficent way of generating that CP more expensive.

Gonna tell you, not a fan of that.