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I just ignore the current fluff as it is. I'm just saying that I believe they need to make the change in order to survive. On the one hand, I get it, players like what they like. But on the other hand, this isn't high class literature. And GW have backed themselves into some really bad holes due to the way their story is written. Some primarchs being dead is bad, because it makes it harder to put out content for them, which in turn angers fans of one chapter over another, especially when one chapter gets to have their primarchs, while Iron Hands and Nightlords get nothing.

except I've not heard any of those people complaining. and GW's never put out a mini or rules for them (an yes they've HH rules but the HH isn't 40k)

 Togusa wrote:


I guess. It's still C class scifi, don't take it that seriously?

Relative to what?

In terms of quality, its pretty decent. The 40k novels as a whole are of far superior quality to the Star Wars EU, which are a literary cesspit thats only successful because it has Star Wars printed on the cover. There certainly are stinkers, CS Goto to be sure, but they're rarer than stinkers in Star Wars novels.

At absolute worst, 40k is B class Sci-fi but only because its still relatively niche in terms of following. And unlike a lot of other sci-fis, the setting has extremely deep potential.

 MajorTom11 wrote:
I'm not sure how you could effectively translate 40k to live action, esp in the TV arena.. I would love them to make a proper go of it at a high level (and budget) though - godspeed to their production and set-design dept!

I think it would require a Game of Thrones style budget and their willingness to portray the universe as grim dark as it is supposed to be. With it "just" being in development, it doesn't really mean much of anything anything until someone actually green lights it though.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
All of them, for anyone capable of reading between the lines. Or did you think someone abducted as part of a near-death experience/taken by sky-gods during gladiatorial combat as a prepubescent and then subjected to a few years of brainwashing, chemical therapy, and genetic engineering so as to end up in the body of a walking muscle-tank at around 16 would turn out a well adjusted young man?

That's a valid interpretation, sure. But I can't help but feel that, despite your valid complaints regarding excessive flanderisation of certain elements of the setting, you're perpetuating the same crime here. Yes, Marines are dehumanized war machines; but they can, on occasion, be heroic warrior monks as well. They should be, because if everything is awful, then nothing really is. If everything is painted black, there's no contrast to be had.

40k might have started its life as a one note satire, but satire not rooted in live human character has no longevity and it certainly isn't a product you can expect to sell for 30 years, primarily to teens, worldwide. It now needs to sustain itself as a setting rather than an inside joke, and that requires at least a modicum of variety at the emotional and conceptual levels.

A Marine that is both a drugged up, bioengineered child soldier AND a stoic warrior monk is much more interesting, provided the idea is executed correctly, than either of those extremes on their own.

I think younger marines would nearly emotionless robots. Brainwashing, drugs and profound religiosity would render them hard and bland. Older marines who matured well would be allowed by their officers to develop with less mental conditioning. They'd possess interesting personalities and amusing quirks. Marines who's personalities were in any way questionable would remain apart of rigorous mental conditioning programs. Not every veteran becomes a captain or a chaplain.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I'm hopeful this will change as they go through and continue to rewrite the fluff of the game. I'd much rather see the IoM toned back, made less fascist and more of a force for good in the galaxy. This show might be able to do that.

And rob 40K of one of the things that makes it unique? That there are no good factions, only good people within those factions (except Tyranids obviously... and the Tau ).

It's old and stale. I'm still hoping 40K gets the same treatment WHFB got. Bring on the AoSification of 40K!!

I never get this - if you dislike it so much, why not go and play/read something else? That way you(plural) get to play/read something you enjoy, and your(plural) enjoyment doesn't come at the expense of everyone else's.

Agreed. What is it with this sudden influx of 40k players that seem to dislike almost everything that makes 40k 40k? If you don't like the background of this game and want to make it like every other generic scifi setting out there then why did you even get into 40k in the first place?

 Togusa wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I'm hopeful this will change as they go through and continue to rewrite the fluff of the game. I'd much rather see the IoM toned back, made less fascist and more of a force for good in the galaxy. This show might be able to do that.

And rob 40K of one of the things that makes it unique? That there are no good factions, only good people within those factions (except Tyranids obviously... and the Tau ).

It's old and stale. I'm still hoping 40K gets the same treatment WHFB got. Bring on the AoSification of 40K!!

I never get this - if you dislike it so much, why not go and play/read something else? That way you(plural) get to play/read something you enjoy, and your(plural) enjoyment doesn't come at the expense of everyone else's.

I just ignore the current fluff as it is. I'm just saying that I believe they need to make the change in order to survive. On the one hand, I get it, players like what they like. But on the other hand, this isn't high class literature. And GW have backed themselves into some really bad holes due to the way their story is written. Some primarchs being dead is bad, because it makes it harder to put out content for them, which in turn angers fans of one chapter over another, especially when one chapter gets to have their primarchs, while Iron Hands and Nightlords get nothing.

At the very least stuff like this needs to change. Either models should be anything goes, ie separate the stories from the table top or retcons ensue. I'd say pick the best option in this case as option 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I'm hopeful this will change as they go through and continue to rewrite the fluff of the game. I'd much rather see the IoM toned back, made less fascist and more of a force for good in the galaxy. This show might be able to do that.

And rob 40K of one of the things that makes it unique? That there are no good factions, only good people within those factions (except Tyranids obviously... and the Tau ).

It's old and stale. I'm still hoping 40K gets the same treatment WHFB got. Bring on the AoSification of 40K!!

The entire point of the setting is that is a a grim, dark, hopeless, uncaring dystopian future where nothing really matters and everything is bad, though. That's the defining trait of W40K overall and especially that of the Imperium - even when the Imperium tries to be 'good', it certainly isn't the vast, vast majority of the time. To want that to be changed is to ask for the core identity of the setting to be taken away. If this show avoids portraying the Imperium in a dark way and instead tries to give the impression that they're really good guys, I don't think it will have understood W40K and what makes it what it is. The same applies to other aspects of the setting, if it just comes across as a typical somewhat dark sci-fi setting that isn't really that much worse than others, then it won't be properly 40K. Those things can't be taken away without ruining the setting in quite a significant way.

I guess. It's still C class scifi, don't take it that seriously?

To me it seems like you're thinking about things in the wrong way from the start - there is no "story". Warhammer 40K is not a story that is being told, it's a background narrative/setting that fleshes out the miniatures game and vice versa. Stories are told within that setting and there are obviously occasionally some changes to the background as a whole, but for the most part there is no progressing narrative or anything along those lines. Most of the Primarchs being dead isn't a problem, because they are not something intended to be a part of the setting in its current time in the first place - they were created to be background figures of myth and legend to add substance to the lore of 40K, not as characters in a story. The miniatures and lore are two sides of the same coin. They're both needed to help things realize their potential, you can't seperate them as that would mean you'd have miniatures that you know nothing about at all and lore that has absolutely no relevance to the game its based on.

What other sci-fi settings come close in terms of scale that would mean 40k counts as "c class" in comparison? Overall 40K may not be extremely high quality writing that will go down in history as some of the greatest sci-fi ever or anything like that, i'm sure there are far better stories than the W40K novels, but that doesn't mean it isn't a very enjoyable, beloved setting that's resulted in lots of great stuff in the decades its been around. Eisenhorn is considered to be one of the higher quality novel series 40K has, whether they're able to fully realize the dark, gritty, horrific setting and portray the Imperium correctly for a larger audience is another matter, but it has the potential to make 40k reach an even bigger audience. It's already endured for decades and seemingly doing better than ever - GW may be a miniature-company primarily and that's their focus, but to imply that's all that matters seems a bit disingenous. There are lots of 40k video games, comics, novels, audiobooks, roleplaying games, many other tabletop miniature games, a (quite bad) movie, merchandise like action figures and now a TV show based around one of the very unique & interesting aspects of the setting - 40k is no longer just the background to a tabletop miniatures game. It's developed far beyond just being that, it's not just there to give context to the miniatures anymore.

Saying what seems to amount to "I don't pay attention to the lore and don't like it, they should change it all" and wanting them to take away those defining traits of 40k so that it isn't 40k anymore just sounds utterly absurd to me, too. It sounds as if you're asking for something where there are no consequences and everyone has to have everything (E.g. Each Chapter still has their Primarch) in order so that no one gets left out - that would be utterly boring and a very detrimental way to portray a setting.

What other sci-fi settings come close in terms of scale that would mean 40k counts as "c class" in comparison?

I'm pretty sure the only other s-f setting that could possibly compete with 40k in terms of world building is Battletech.

Kinda makes sense - you can't compete with thousands of pages of printed ideas unless you have thousands of pages of printed ideas.

Even The Man in the High Castle and Handmaid's Tail has a setting we wouldn't want to live in, but enjoy watching the characters overcome the inherent difficultes associated with surviving the brutle life they find themselves in. Does Hulu tone down their shows for the general audience? Eisenhorn will fit nicely at Hulu

Oh that's right, high castle is on Amazon prime

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I'm hopeful this will change as they go through and continue to rewrite the fluff of the game. I'd much rather see the IoM toned back, made less fascist and more of a force for good in the galaxy. This show might be able to do that.

And rob 40K of one of the things that makes it unique? That there are no good factions, only good people within those factions (except Tyranids obviously... and the Tau ).

It's old and stale. I'm still hoping 40K gets the same treatment WHFB got. Bring on the AoSification of 40K!!

I never get this - if you dislike it so much, why not go and play/read something else? That way you(plural) get to play/read something you enjoy, and your(plural) enjoyment doesn't come at the expense of everyone else's.

Agreed. What is it with this sudden influx of 40k players that seem to dislike almost everything that makes 40k 40k? If you don't like the background of this game and want to make it like every other generic scifi setting out there then why did you even get into 40k in the first place?

I think it's just the prevalence of GW white knights since they 'changed'. Since there's a perception that GW is making the background 'lighter' they have to defend daddy's decisions to the death. If they did a 180 and turned on the grimdark even more, they'd change tact.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I'm hopeful this will change as they go through and continue to rewrite the fluff of the game. I'd much rather see the IoM toned back, made less fascist and more of a force for good in the galaxy. This show might be able to do that.

And rob 40K of one of the things that makes it unique? That there are no good factions, only good people within those factions (except Tyranids obviously... and the Tau ).

It's old and stale. I'm still hoping 40K gets the same treatment WHFB got. Bring on the AoSification of 40K!!

I never get this - if you dislike it so much, why not go and play/read something else? That way you(plural) get to play/read something you enjoy, and your(plural) enjoyment doesn't come at the expense of everyone else's.

Agreed. What is it with this sudden influx of 40k players that seem to dislike almost everything that makes 40k 40k? If you don't like the background of this game and want to make it like every other generic scifi setting out there then why did you even get into 40k in the first place?

I think it's just the prevalence of GW white knights since they 'changed'. Since there's a perception that GW is making the background 'lighter' they have to defend daddy's decisions to the death. If they did a 180 and turned on the grimdark even more, they'd change tact.

that's a pile of bs. most of the people who hate everything have nothing to do with white knights. it's mostly overly cynical people who dislike the game, dislike the fluff, and dislike everything, that's as anti-white knight as you can get. and most of the people who claim the background is lighter are people who've not read the damned fluff and instead rely on internet memes and the like to form horriably ill informed opinions. thats not white knights.

Not familar with the character, but it would be awesome to have an episode where the Inquistor exposes a genestealer cult. I'd definitely watch that!

So very excited about this, that original trilogy really got me into 40k so it will be good to see how it is brought to life

I'd like to hope this will be decent and not horribly embarrassing.

SamusDrake wrote:
Not familar with the character, but it would be awesome to have an episode where the Inquistor exposes a genestealer cult. I'd definitely watch that!

I don't think he ever deals with genestealers but there's lots of awesome stuff

SamusDrake wrote:
Not familar with the character, but it would be awesome to have an episode where the Inquistor exposes a genestealer cult. I'd definitely watch that!

Not super familiar with him either, although I do love Dan Abnett and he does a particularly terrific job of balancing characterisation and human stakes with big huge epic grimdark. If any one writer's work is going to be adapted, I'm delighted it's his.

I'm conflicted about whether or not this is the perfect way to introduce people to the whole mythos.

On the one hand, having a single central figure to orbit around is a relatively digestible way to guide people into an ENORMOUS universe, and it means you can keep things on TV budget scale.

On the other hand, the marines and the big gigantic OTT scale battles of 40k are surely its most recognisable USPs? As powerful as Inquisitors are, I can't help wondering if using one as a springboard into something this vast would make the whole exercise feel a little like The Zeppo episode of Buffy?

The trilogy’s several hundred years before the Tyranids arrive, isn’t it?

I think people tend to forget how relatively recent the Hive Fleets began to appear.

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
The trilogies several hundred years before the Tyranids arrive, isn’t it?

I think people tend to forget how relatively recent the Hive Fleets began to appear.

Genestealers had been plaguing the Galaxy long before the first Hive Fleet showed up. It actually took a long time for the Imperium to realize that Genestealers were connected to Tyranids. They thought they were unrelated xeno. It was only after the conflict on Yggdrasil that genestealers were confirmed to be a Tyranid biomorph. And subsequently it was deduced that Genestealers are a covert infiltration method the Hive uses to weaken and scout for food sources.

Not too sure about any focus on Genestealers though because then people might say it is just a ripoff of Aliens, but let's face it, 40K did borrow a lot from Giger's xenomorphs.

The issue with portraying Marines is they easily fit into a stereotypical masculine wish fulfilment fantasy. The super strong, super skilled, super long lived, action hero with little to no repercussions from their actions because he gets out of most situations by simply shooting or crushing anything in his way. Then throw in something about them having a heart of gold or being a "rebel" against the strictures of the Codex or the Imperium. It easily becomes possible for them to become viewed as genuine "good guys" by the average viewer or reader that is not familiar with 40K.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Togusa wrote:


I guess. It's still C class scifi, don't take it that seriously?

Relative to what?

In terms of quality, its pretty decent. The 40k novels as a whole are of far superior quality to the Star Wars EU, which are a literary cesspit thats only successful because it has Star Wars printed on the cover. There certainly are stinkers, CS Goto to be sure, but they're rarer than stinkers in Star Wars novels.

At absolute worst, 40k is B class Sci-fi but only because its still relatively niche in terms of following. And unlike a lot of other sci-fis, the setting has extremely deep potential.

40k has the added trouble of theme. The setting is harder to do right. Star wars is relatively easy. There's an evil authoritarian empire with nazi dress sense and you root for the people rebelling against them. Even the yuuzhan vong were pretty heavily channeling real world baddies.

In 40k, there's no obvious good guy. And you don't want to just default to the evil authoritarian empire with a nazi dress sense as the good guys. Because that's how you normalize nazis.

stratigo wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Togusa wrote:


I guess. It's still C class scifi, don't take it that seriously?

Relative to what?

In terms of quality, its pretty decent. The 40k novels as a whole are of far superior quality to the Star Wars EU, which are a literary cesspit thats only successful because it has Star Wars printed on the cover. There certainly are stinkers, CS Goto to be sure, but they're rarer than stinkers in Star Wars novels.

At absolute worst, 40k is B class Sci-fi but only because its still relatively niche in terms of following. And unlike a lot of other sci-fis, the setting has extremely deep potential.

40k has the added trouble of theme. The setting is harder to do right. Star wars is relatively easy. There's an evil authoritarian empire with nazi dress sense and you root for the people rebelling against them. Even the yuuzhan vong were pretty heavily channeling real world baddies.

In 40k, there's no obvious good guy. And you don't want to just default to the evil authoritarian empire with a nazi dress sense as the good guys. Because that's how you normalize nazis.

Ummm, there is nothing nazi-esk about the general Imperial aesthetic. There are some German Empire aesthetics, but that is very very different to Third Reich. Double headed eagles and Maltese crosses are not Nazi emblems. They are Germanic emblems which predate Nazis by over a thousand years.

 Grey Templar wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Togusa wrote:


I guess. It's still C class scifi, don't take it that seriously?

Relative to what?

In terms of quality, its pretty decent. The 40k novels as a whole are of far superior quality to the Star Wars EU, which are a literary cesspit thats only successful because it has Star Wars printed on the cover. There certainly are stinkers, CS Goto to be sure, but they're rarer than stinkers in Star Wars novels.

At absolute worst, 40k is B class Sci-fi but only because its still relatively niche in terms of following. And unlike a lot of other sci-fis, the setting has extremely deep potential.

40k has the added trouble of theme. The setting is harder to do right. Star wars is relatively easy. There's an evil authoritarian empire with nazi dress sense and you root for the people rebelling against them. Even the yuuzhan vong were pretty heavily channeling real world baddies.

In 40k, there's no obvious good guy. And you don't want to just default to the evil authoritarian empire with a nazi dress sense as the good guys. Because that's how you normalize nazis.

Ummm, there is nothing nazi-esk about the general Imperial aesthetic. There are some German Empire aesthetics, but that is very very different to Third Reich. Double headed eagles and Maltese crosses are not Nazi emblems. They are Germanic emblems which predate Nazis by over a thousand years.

So does the swastika. The terrible thing about nazis is that they ruin everything they touch

stratigo wrote:
And you don't want to just default to the evil authoritarian empire with a nazi dress sense as the good guys. Because that's how you normalize nazis.

No it's not. It's not that at all. That'd be like saying that rock and roll music causes satan worship or that video games make people violent.

Next you'll be telling is that liking Darth Vader or thinking the Empire has cool ships is akin to agreeing with their policies, therefore you too are a Nazi.

An Inquisitor fighting Slaanesh Deamon would make
me buying the DVD box just for that scene,
if done properly...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
or that video games make people violent.

Well I'm pretty sure competitive gaming makes at least some people violent .
If that's the kind of thing that gives us Dark Dungeon, I welcome the demonization of 40k!

Back on topic please.

Casualty wrote:


On the other hand, the marines and the big gigantic OTT scale battles of 40k are surely its most recognisable USPs? As powerful as Inquisitors are, I can't help wondering if using one as a springboard into something this vast would make the whole exercise feel a little like The Zeppo episode of Buffy?

Without giving too much away, the first Eisenhorn book climaxes with an imperial.battlegroup doing a forced assault landing of over 100,000 troops with armour and marine support. As the book is about Eisenhorn, Abnett did a great job of just focus in gon what is going on in the immediate vicinity of the inquisitor (and therefore stopping it from becoming total bolter porn), but even just following the books provides the plenty of scope for epic battles as backdrops

Xenos also has Pacification 505 pretty early on in the book, which is its first real big battle. Dan only describes in broad strokes (seeing as how Eisenhorn is occupied elsewhere) how eighty Naval security troops raid a target and despite being grossly outnumbered, show just how capable they really are.

I do wonder if they’ll feature Bolters.

They’re iconic of the setting, but horrifying weapons in terms of what they do.

If they stay true to them, rather than make them simply large bore solid shot? I can’t see more than a couple of people going ‘splash’ an episode.

If not? And unless it’s a Marine? Just rearm with auto weapons.

I watched the most recent Dredd remake recently. There are quite a few quite unpleasant gunshot effects in that. I also tried to start watching American Gods and pretty much had to stop at the introductory bit as I wasn't quite prepared to take the concentrated violence. On that basis I think the TV industry is quite capable of capturing the right effects.

I mean back in 2002, Spooks just had that casual "let's murder the undercover policewoman with a deep fat fryer" moment.

Also I dont think bolters turn up until quite far into the books. So it would be easily possible to work the audience up to that point.

It just depends where it ends up really. HBO is probably the use because they might offer the production values AND the freedom to gore it up to at least the level of Oberyn's death.

AMC maybe? It showed some nasty gunshot stuff in Breaking Bad IIRC, and The Terror was a great balance of aesthetic and horror we could do much worse than seeing emulated.