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Okay people, lets stop the thread going in this direction. We all have our opinions on the beloved SW (even if you don't love it) and we can discuss the films without throwing around slurs and painting with a broad brush. So please don't continue to engage in that or with that.

Now tell me about the Thrawn book, someone must have read and this is in orange so you have to.

I tried to start a discussion back on page 7 I think but people were banging on about whether Return of the Jedi was good or not. And I guess not enough other people have read it to engage with the subject.

 Riquende wrote:
As an aside, I was stuck at an airport yesterday and smashed through about 80% of the new Thrawn book, having enjoyed the previous.

Other than Zahn writing Thrawn as godlike in his deduction powers (which he always did) it's an enjoyable story of dutiful, non-villainous Imperial officers dealing with threats both without (Grysks) and within (corrupt officials). The fact they've woven the power games between Tarkin and Krennic into the jumping off point for the story gives it more of a connection to concurrent events (Thrawn starts the story at Lothal, and has one week to deal with Krennic's literal vermin problem or he loses all funding for the TIE Defender program that will then go to the Death Star).

Rogue One, Rebels, the Thrawn books. Canonically hammering home the sense of nostalgia that is entirely missing from the rest of the Star Wars output.

The one thing I'm not really behind is the buildup of the Grysk threat, they're talked about as extremely dangerous by both the Chiss and Thrawn (as in, dangerous to the existence of the Empire) but a force that powerful coming from nowhere seems a bit off - they're described as able to subtly influence populations somehow but there's not even a hint at how that works, and because there are no Grysk POV characters it's all just speculation and worry by Eli Vanto. Do they use the Force somehow? If they did, then you'd expect Palpatine to take Thrawn's warnings more seriously. Is it pheromones somehow? Or just bribery/blackmail? Who knows, but they seem to have this uncanny ability to 'seduce' whole populations into serving their cause.

As much as the NJO books were ultimately a bit crap, at least with the character of Nom Anor you got inside the head of the Vong at times to get more of a sense of purpose/method.

 Riquende wrote:
I tried to start a discussion back on page 7 I think but people were banging on about whether Return of the Jedi was good or not. And I guess not enough other people have read it to engage with the subject.

 Riquende wrote:
As an aside, I was stuck at an airport yesterday and smashed through about 80% of the new Thrawn book, having enjoyed the previous.

Other than Zahn writing Thrawn as godlike in his deduction powers (which he always did) it's an enjoyable story of dutiful, non-villainous Imperial officers dealing with threats both without (Grysks) and within (corrupt officials). The fact they've woven the power games between Tarkin and Krennic into the jumping off point for the story gives it more of a connection to concurrent events (Thrawn starts the story at Lothal, and has one week to deal with Krennic's literal vermin problem or he loses all funding for the TIE Defender program that will then go to the Death Star).

Rogue One, Rebels, the Thrawn books. Canonically hammering home the sense of nostalgia that is entirely missing from the rest of the Star Wars output.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Riquende wrote:
I tried to start a discussion back on page 7 I think but people were banging on about whether Return of the Jedi was good or not. And I guess not enough other people have read it to engage with the subject.

 Riquende wrote:
As an aside, I was stuck at an airport yesterday and smashed through about 80% of the new Thrawn book, having enjoyed the previous.

Other than Zahn writing Thrawn as godlike in his deduction powers (which he always did) it's an enjoyable story of dutiful, non-villainous Imperial officers dealing with threats both without (Grysks) and within (corrupt officials). The fact they've woven the power games between Tarkin and Krennic into the jumping off point for the story gives it more of a connection to concurrent events (Thrawn starts the story at Lothal, and has one week to deal with Krennic's literal vermin problem or he loses all funding for the TIE Defender program that will then go to the Death Star).

Rogue One, Rebels, the Thrawn books. Canonically hammering home the sense of nostalgia that is entirely missing from the rest of the Star Wars output.

The one thing I'm not really behind is the buildup of the Grysk threat, they're talked about as extremely dangerous by both the Chiss and Thrawn (as in, dangerous to the existence of the Empire) but a force that powerful coming from nowhere seems a bit off - they're described as able to subtly influence populations somehow but there's not even a hint at how that works, and because there are no Grysk POV characters it's all just speculation and worry by Eli Vanto. Do they use the Force somehow? If they did, then you'd expect Palpatine to take Thrawn's warnings more seriously. Is it pheromones somehow? Or just bribery/blackmail? Who knows, but they seem to have this uncanny ability to 'seduce' whole populations into serving their cause.

As much as the NJO books were ultimately a bit crap, at least with the character of Nom Anor you got inside the head of the Vong at times to get more of a sense of purpose/method.

I enjoyed the old Thrawn books. He was always Batman level competence but there was always the suggestion that had the Empire been less prejudiced, he would have had more opportunity to affect events in the OT. That sidelining and prejudice and his relationship with other Imperial notaries made him an interesting character for me.

Should I re-read those books before picking this one up?

 =Angel= wrote:


Should I re-read those books before picking this one up?

No. For good or ill, those stories are completely expunged from the new timeline (and in any event happen some time after these).

Book 1 features Thrawn's early career with the Empire, despite already being a decorated Chiss officer he is placed into the academy where he takes on a protege, Eli Vanto. It charts his rise to Admiral, dealing with the bigotry etc and taking on smugglers, insurgents, etc.

Book 2 sees Palpatine send Thrawn on a mission with Vader to an area of space very near Chiss space to investigate a threat that is somehow bound up with the Dark Side (hence Vader's presence). Cleverly, the book jumps through time to time during the Clone Wars where a younger Thrawn, investigating the Republic for the Chiss, ends up aiding Anakin Skywalker on the exact same planet as he travels secretly to rescue Padme, who had been captured by the Seperatists there.

Book 3 has a wager between Tarkin and Krennic - Krennic's supply lines to the Death Star are being compromised by a larger version of a Mynoc so Thrawn accepts the challenge to deal with the vermin inside one week, if he succeeds then the funding for the TIE Defender project will be retained but if he loses then the money will be diverted into the Death Star.

 ingtaer wrote:



Now tell me about the Thrawn book, someone must have read and this is in orange so you have to.

Book?

Book???

Mon Frere! This is a trilogy!

Timeline wise, there's a bit of everything. His first contact with The Empire, a mission alongside Anakin during the Clone Wars, and other bits set in and around Rebels.

Hard to say more without giving spoilers (also, it's a while since I read the first two!). And having not read his original stories, I can't offer a comparison. But I enjoyed them for what they are. Thrawn is definitely a very clever cookie, and wears his influences on his sleeve (rightly so!). Plotwise, it fits in very nicely, and to me didn't feel shoehorned. There's rivalry between Thrawn and Krennic due to their pet projects (TIE Defender and Stardust), both of which fall under The Tarkin Initiative. These, along with Rogue One, really help explore the personality and failings of The Empire.

Defo start with the first, as there is an arc throughout the three.

Out of the new novels I've personally read (Thrawn, Bloodline, Aftermath Trilogy, Tarkin) this is right up there with the best of them. Heck, even the story of Aftermath is pretty good - if you can stomach the writer's prose (he's a screen writer first and foremost).

Thanks very much for the write up Riquende, sounds interesting but not as good as the first two. Shame they didn't take more of an opportunity to delve deeper into the enemy but I guess it would then cause problems in the new continuity if they had. Did they at least expand upon the new canon Chiss at all?

MDG, I did mean the newest one as I have been waiting for my copy to arrive from whatever postal hellhole it has disappeared into. I did enjoy the first two (not as much as the original trilogy though), Aftermath was too much of a slog, Bloodline I have not attempted yet but you missed out Catalyst which I thought was great! Nice to add some more depth to the characters that were introduced in Rogue One.

Shall pick up Catalyst

One I've not been able to finished is the Luke Skywalker one. Heir to the Jedi I think.

Oh gods I just cannot get on with that book. Too much of just how very much Luke totally fancies the woman he's paired off with. Just. Eurgh. Too much.

The third Thrawn book is pretty decent. We get to meet the Chiss Ascendancy, and more on those alien things, the name of which I can never remember. Lots to enjoy, and certainly up to snuff in terms of its two predecessors.


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Oh, and have also read 'Lords of the Sith'.

I mean.....it's ok. I guess. Just.....Solo levels of disposable. Enjoyable enough, but far from compulsory.


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Loose, vague rankings?

Thrawn Trilogy and Tarkin. Really expand on The Empire and it's servants.

Bloodline. Has an interesting take on post-Endor stuff, especially how nobody knew who Leia's dad was. Also feeds into the new trilogy.

Aftermath. As noted, the prose is kind of offputting - they're not an easy read. BUT, the plots I feel are solid enough to make it worth persevering.

Heir To The Jedi and Lords of the Sith? Just....meh. Nothing added, but don't detract from owt. Both remind me more of average level fanfiction.


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Oh, and the new Vader comics are pretty ace! Not only because of the wonderful Dr Aphra.

I started Lost Stars and the first Aftermath book, but got distracted from both.

The only new canon book I've finished was Alphabet Squadron, which I liked - both for its story, characters, etc and it's window into their new take on the nascent New Republic vs fragmenting Empire after Operation Cinder but before the battle of Jakku.

EDIT: deleted by moi: just saw the Mod note.

Just thinking.....surely we due another trailer for IX?

IIRC the proper trailer for TLJ came out in the middle of October while it's teaser came out around the same time in the year as Rise's did.

So we have a ways to go.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But Flubber Yoda is one of the highlights. I'd always wondered how he did combat, seeing as he's somewhat on the smol side.

That, and his 'benefits cheat' walking stick immediately before anyone else shows up.

And I thought it was tedious pandering to the masses, and made the Jedi even more one-dimensional. Before that, I thought it was clear that Yoda was there as a more philosophical kind of Jedi, with Obi-Wan (at least, as he appeared in Star Wars, not so much the prequels) as the warrior type. Then we get that daft fight at the end of Episode 2 (and later on, Palpatine with his lightsabre in Ep 3) and no, apparently all Jedi must fight with swords. It was bad enough when TPM revealed that they all dressed like Tattooine hobos for some reason.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But Flubber Yoda is one of the highlights. I'd always wondered how he did combat, seeing as he's somewhat on the smol side.

That, and his 'benefits cheat' walking stick immediately before anyone else shows up.

And I thought it was tedious pandering to the masses, and made the Jedi even more one-dimensional. Before that, I thought it was clear that Yoda was there as a more philosophical kind of Jedi, with Obi-Wan (at least, as he appeared in Star Wars, not so much the prequels) as the warrior type. Then we get that daft fight at the end of Episode 2 (and later on, Palpatine with his lightsabre in Ep 3) and no, apparently all Jedi must fight with swords. It was bad enough when TPM revealed that they all dressed like Tattooine hobos for some reason.

Yeah, Jedi hobo chic threw me at the time also. It's another example of Lucas' obsession with explaining and linking *everything*. But to be fair, I also understand the usefulness of a 'uniform' to identify the Jedi on screen, and that Obi-Wan's Tatooine robes were an easy visual shorthand for accomplishing that.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. One of the worst sins of the prequels was how it made the Jedi such an uninteresting group of identikit templates.

And as a kid I always thought Yoda was just beyond minor concerns like lightsabers, but no, there we go. Get those CGI dollars working I guess George.

Just having a general ponder.

In the OT, is it ever explicitly stated that Yoda and Obi-Wan were the last survivors of the Jedi order?

I’m wracking my brain, and I can’t think if or when it’s actually stated. So I’m thinking it’s either an old EU thing, or a Fan Assumption?

 gorgon wrote:

Yeah, Jedi hobo chic threw me at the time also. It's another example of Lucas' obsession with explaining and linking *everything*. But to be fair, I also understand the usefulness of a 'uniform' to identify the Jedi on screen, and that Obi-Wan's Tatooine robes were an easy visual shorthand for accomplishing that.

Vader has a hint of the same style in the OT as well with the inner robe under his cape but over his armor. Truthfully, the answer comes down to both being lifted from samurai films to a degree, with Obi-wan having a very ronin styled garb and Vader wearing something of a shogunate armor. Putting the prequel Jedi in something a bit more like Samurai robes follows that trend pretty well thematically, even if it doesn't make a ton of sense in universe. I think it would have worked better if the Clone Wars armor had been a part of the look in the films and not just the cartoon (which pretty much describes the entire prequel era honestly)

It's never explicitly stated, but it wouldn't make much sense for Luke to be the 'last hope' if there's a bunch of Jedi still out there. At the very least, sending an untrained boy off by himself to fight the strongest Jedi of his time seems somewhat irresponsible if they could have backed him up with more Jedi...

That being said, it's always been possible that there were other Jedi still out there in hiding that Obi-Wan and Yoda didn't know about. The old EU certainly unearthed a few, along with introducing all manner of non-jedi force users.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Just having a general ponder.

In the OT, is it ever explicitly stated that Yoda and Obi-Wan were the last survivors of the Jedi order?

I’m wracking my brain, and I can’t think if or when it’s actually stated. So I’m thinking it’s either an old EU thing, or a Fan Assumption?

It's almost entirely taken from Yoda saying that after he dies, Luke will be the last Jedi.

That....is a fair point.

Though I’ve often wondered if by ‘last hope’, they were referring to being able to tackle Vader and Palpatine.

Luke’s connection to The Force was of course strong. And Vader meeting his son was how he turned back.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
That....is a fair point.

Though I’ve often wondered if by ‘last hope’, they were referring to being able to tackle Vader and Palpatine.

Luke’s connection to The Force was of course strong. And Vader meeting his son was how he turned back.

Those are two separate lines.

The "Luke is our last hope/There is another" conversation is towards the end of Empire between Yoda and Obi-wan.

The "When I die, you'll be the last Jedi" conversation is between Luke and Yoda when Luke returns to Dagobah after rescuing Han in RotJ.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
That....is a fair point.

Though I’ve often wondered if by ‘last hope’, they were referring to being able to tackle Vader and Palpatine.

Luke’s connection to The Force was of course strong. And Vader meeting his son was how he turned back.

Keep in mind that the OT never describes Luke's force potential as particularly exceptional. He tells Leia in RotJ that the Force is 'strong' in his family, but it's only in the prequels that Lucas introduced the prophecy and the idea that the Skywalkers were stronger than everyone else.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Just having a general ponder.

In the OT, is it ever explicitly stated that Yoda and Obi-Wan were the last survivors of the Jedi order?

I’m wracking my brain, and I can’t think if or when it’s actually stated. So I’m thinking it’s either an old EU thing, or a Fan Assumption?

It's heavily implied, but never confirmed. Tarkin states that they are extinct, but of course, Obi-wan and yoda were still kicking, so he's clearly wrong with his guess of zero. I think most people felt that when Obi wan said that Luke was their last hope, and Yoda responded with "there is another," that meant leia, but also meant those were the final two Jedi.

The EU leaned hard the other way, with multiple Jedi surviving Order 66: Joruss C'baoth most notably.

If the current SW trilogy has any point to make, it's probably that not all force users are Jedi, and that the Jedi order may not have been the best way to move forward.

“When gone I am, the last of the Jedi will you be.”

 Manchu wrote:
“When gone I am, the last of the Jedi will you be.”

With both "gone" and "Jedi" at best ambiguously defined!

The 'there is another' line referring to Leia was a matter of some contention before RotJ came out - keeping in mind that the best confirmation in Empire is the pointed moment where she hears Luke calling to her; in fact I've heard it argued that it was supposed to refer to a completely different person, but settled on Leia when they decided to end Star Wars as a trilogy - her being awkwardly declared his sister similarly coming from confusion as to whether Yoda meant there was another hope or specifically another Skywalker they could train.

 Polonius wrote:
If the current SW trilogy has any point to make, it's probably that not all force users are Jedi, and that the Jedi order may not have been the best way to move forward.

This is something that Lucasfilm was clearly courting by the time of the acquisition what with the Night Sisters in Clone Wars. They clearly wanted to diversify the galaxy and part of that was by making more and varied practices around different interpretations of the Force.

 Polonius wrote:
I think most people felt that when Obi wan said that Luke was their last hope, and Yoda responded with "there is another," that meant leia, but also meant those were the final two Jedi.

Although that was only the post - RotJ conclusion. When ESB was made, Leia wasn't Luke's sister (hence the infamous kiss)... That was going to be a new character introduced in the next movie, but plans changed when it came time to actually make RotJ.

 Polonius wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
“When gone I am, the last of the Jedi will you be.”

With both "gone" and "Jedi" at best ambiguously defined!

From a certain point of view at least.

Luke and Leia being siblings did kind of ‘complicate’ the narrative imo.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
The 'there is another' line referring to Leia was a matter of some contention before RotJ came out - keeping in mind that the best confirmation in Empire is the pointed moment where she hears Luke calling to her; in fact I've heard it argued that it was supposed to refer to a completely different person, but settled on Leia when they decided to end Star Wars as a trilogy - her being awkwardly declared his sister similarly coming from confusion as to whether Yoda meant there was another hope or specifically another Skywalker they could train.

 Polonius wrote:
If the current SW trilogy has any point to make, it's probably that not all force users are Jedi, and that the Jedi order may not have been the best way to move forward.

This is something that Lucasfilm was clearly courting by the time of the acquisition what with the Night Sisters in Clone Wars. They clearly wanted to diversify the galaxy and part of that was by making more and varied practices around different interpretations of the Force.

I mean, that's always been the case outside of the films, which were specifically the saga of the Skywalkers and the Jedi. The Nightsisters were invented for an EU novel in the mid 90's.

What annoys me about the "kill the past" sentiment as it relates to the Jedi is that it's unnecessary. The old EU clearly established that the Jedi as they existed at the time of the Clone Wars was preceded by several other monastic orders of Force wielders also known as "Jedi" or something similar, and each incarnation was a different spin on that core idea. Even the idea of a group of not-Jedi who're not strictly light side or dark side but seekers of "true" balance within the individual rather than between two opposing factions has already been done in the EU during one of the Old Republic eras. There's absolutely nothing preventing Lucasiflm from establishing a new "version" of the Jedi through Rey et al, save for the combination of the fact many of the high heidyins at the company are firm devotees of the Cult of the New(their only real doctrine: old bad, new good, always and in every context, and anyone who has a different opinion is merely blinded by nostalgia) and too self-regarding to admit that most of the good bits of their new work is just recycling the better ideas from the old EU with the serial numbers filed off.

 insaniak wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
That....is a fair point.

Though I’ve often wondered if by ‘last hope’, they were referring to being able to tackle Vader and Palpatine.

Luke’s connection to The Force was of course strong. And Vader meeting his son was how he turned back.

Keep in mind that the OT never describes Luke's force potential as particularly exceptional. He tells Leia in RotJ that the Force is 'strong' in his family, but it's only in the prequels that Lucas introduced the prophecy and the idea that the Skywalkers were stronger than everyone else.

Only that Anakin was, specifically. Luke's 'power level' is never a thing the movies care about. To be honest, he comes off as... not particularly good at his lessons. Leia's power is outside the scope of the films, barring her Superman impression in TLJ.

The EU novels, on the other hand, posit the idea in several places that 'strong' Jedi are to be feared, as they almost always go too far and fall to the Dark side. The Thrawn trilogy in particular jumps on that