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 Mmmpi wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Slayer, this isn't a logical argument for them. It's an emotional one. They want because they want and no amount of reasoning will matter next to those wants.

It doesn't matter that you could just give ALL terminators the option to take a single storm shield and it wouldn't make any difference. They want Deathwing to have their own datasheet for reasons.

lance845, we've been nothing but logical with our arguments, and your dismissiveness is insulting. Grow up.

No you haven't. "I like fluff and pictures of painted models" isn't a logical argument. It's an emotional one.

On the one hand I don't mean to be insulting. On the other I don't actually care how you feel about it..

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Slayer, this isn't a logical argument for them. It's an emotional one. They want because they want and no amount of reasoning will matter next to those wants.

It doesn't matter that you could just give ALL terminators the option to take a single storm shield and it wouldn't make any difference. They want Deathwing to have their own datasheet for reasons.

lance845, we've been nothing but logical with our arguments, and your dismissiveness is insulting. Grow up.

Where have you been logical in defending Crowe? I'd like to see that please.

3. Everyone knows that the Chaos Knight codex shouldn't exist as is. Look at how little it has in content. At most you need 1 page in the main Knight codex to explain how switching keywords makes them enemies of the Imperium and we can give you 5 pages of fluff on how they go Renegade or chaotic sometimes.

funny chaos players have wanted this for a long time. honest to god question, whats it to you if GW puts out new material for other players?

BrianDavion wrote:

3. Everyone knows that the Chaos Knight codex shouldn't exist as is. Look at how little it has in content. At most you need 1 page in the main Knight codex to explain how switching keywords makes them enemies of the Imperium and we can give you 5 pages of fluff on how they go Renegade or chaotic sometimes.

funny chaos players have wanted this for a long time. honest to god question, whats it to you if GW puts out new material for other players?

This isn't about taking something away from anybody. Nobody is advocating to squat your army. It would be BETTER if the Knight codex was written from the get go to be for both imperium and chaos knights. It's so few units and all of them should be interchangeable between both armies. Why are you happy to have 2 50.00 purchases instead of 1 efficient one?

GW bends you over a barrel to sell you what... 5 datasheets at 10.00 a piece wrapped in a hardcover with a crap binding and you are glad for it? Are you only happy because before you went without and hey, a slap in the face is better then a kick while on the ground?

This should be better for cheaper. Don't be happy with your scraps. You should have the entire knight line at your disposal with simple rules to access a different set of strategems and swapping a single keyword on the datasheets. Instead you got screwed. And as imperium releases more and more knight varrients you are going to sit around wondering when your next update will be.

By the same token it's real nice that SM get all these ancient rediscovered legacy technology from pre heresy like the Leviathan Dread. Is there a chaos Leviathan dread? If so did it get released at the same time as the standard? Why the feth not? Do you see the issue yet?

 Lance845 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Slayer, this isn't a logical argument for them. It's an emotional one. They want because they want and no amount of reasoning will matter next to those wants.

It doesn't matter that you could just give ALL terminators the option to take a single storm shield and it wouldn't make any difference. They want Deathwing to have their own datasheet for reasons.

lance845, we've been nothing but logical with our arguments, and your dismissiveness is insulting. Grow up.

No you haven't. "I like fluff and pictures of painted models" isn't a logical argument. It's an emotional one.

On the one hand I don't mean to be insulting. On the other I don't actually care how you feel about it..

No, but "people who buy GW products like fluff and painted models" is a logical argument.

On the one hand it doesn't matter if you meant to, on the other, you're just lashing out because you're wrong about everything in this thread.

Wooo! Psychology!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Slayer, this isn't a logical argument for them. It's an emotional one. They want because they want and no amount of reasoning will matter next to those wants.

It doesn't matter that you could just give ALL terminators the option to take a single storm shield and it wouldn't make any difference. They want Deathwing to have their own datasheet for reasons.

lance845, we've been nothing but logical with our arguments, and your dismissiveness is insulting. Grow up.

Where have you been logical in defending Crowe? I'd like to see that please.

Reread my posts. You might have to first look up what a logical argument is though, since you don't seem to recognize one when you see it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

3. Everyone knows that the Chaos Knight codex shouldn't exist as is. Look at how little it has in content. At most you need 1 page in the main Knight codex to explain how switching keywords makes them enemies of the Imperium and we can give you 5 pages of fluff on how they go Renegade or chaotic sometimes.

funny chaos players have wanted this for a long time. honest to god question, whats it to you if GW puts out new material for other players?

Everything new, and everything they don't use is bloat to them. You can see it every time these 'debates happen.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I don't count named characters ever and to be honest I'm all for getting rid of some of them. Nobody is gonna miss Tellion or Asmodai, sorry.

Space Marine Fliers already cover the Dark Angel's ones with too many similarities, and I'm already annoyed the Stormhawk is a separate entry from the Stormtalon to be honest. That's one consolidation that could be made.

And yes Deathwing are exactly the same. Nobody makes a squad that's 1 LC dude, one TH/SS, one Chainfist, one Assault Cannon, and one Power Sword Sarge. You end up specializing the squad which is already done, surprise surprise, by the two entries done with Tactical/Assault Terminators. Hell, that would make it easier to do a fluffy Deathwing force by avoiding the silly Rule of 3, huh?
Regarding the Aspect Warriors, they actually have differing stats all over and LOTS of varying equipment. The only thing Deathwing have that's unique is the Plasma Cannon literally nobody uses.

Get over Deathwing being special, because they're not.

You keep saying that, and I've already told you I'd miss Asmodai. I still miss Sapphon. I'm even more fond of Telion, though I liked it better when he replaced a Scout Squad Sergeant. I make that squad - I have LC dudes, TH/SS dudes, Magnetized Chain Fists, and power sword Sarge's. I have Plasma Cannon dudes. Maces of Absolution and Flails of the Unforgiven, Watchers in the Dark, and Deathwing Command Squads also add up to LOTS of varying equipment. Get over Deathwing being special, because they are, and they'll stay that way.

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Slayer, this isn't a logical argument for them. It's an emotional one. They want because they want and no amount of reasoning will matter next to those wants.

It doesn't matter that you could just give ALL terminators the option to take a single storm shield and it wouldn't make any difference. They want Deathwing to have their own datasheet for reasons.

lance845, we've been nothing but logical with our arguments, and your dismissiveness is insulting. Grow up.

No you haven't. "I like fluff and pictures of painted models" isn't a logical argument. It's an emotional one.

On the one hand I don't mean to be insulting. On the other I don't actually care how you feel about it..

No, but "people who buy GW products like fluff and painted models" is a logical argument.

On the one hand it doesn't matter if you meant to, on the other, you're just lashing out because you're wrong about everything in this thread.

Wooo! Psychology!

No it isn't. It's a blanket statement about a lot of people with diverse likes and motivations said to make a sad attempt at supporting your position with nothing to back it up. It's less then logical. At best it's a fallacy. At worst it's a lie. Good try though.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Slayer, this isn't a logical argument for them. It's an emotional one. They want because they want and no amount of reasoning will matter next to those wants.

It doesn't matter that you could just give ALL terminators the option to take a single storm shield and it wouldn't make any difference. They want Deathwing to have their own datasheet for reasons.

lance845, we've been nothing but logical with our arguments, and your dismissiveness is insulting. Grow up.

No you haven't. "I like fluff and pictures of painted models" isn't a logical argument. It's an emotional one.

On the one hand I don't mean to be insulting. On the other I don't actually care how you feel about it..

No, but "people who buy GW products like fluff and painted models" is a logical argument.

On the one hand it doesn't matter if you meant to, on the other, you're just lashing out because you're wrong about everything in this thread.

Wooo! Psychology!

No it isn't. It's a blanket statement about a lot of people with diverse likes and motivations said to make a sad attempt at supporting your position with nothing to back it up. It's less then logical. At best it's a fallacy. At worst it's a lie. Good try though.

"a lot of people like this and want it" is a sad attempt at supporting a position now? you're clutching at straws. and sounding out and out selfish and self centered. apparently no body else's opinion matters and GW should cater only to you?

 Crimson wrote:
Primarchs, Phoenix Lords etc. Everything else can be represented by just adding more customisablity to the generic characters.

Yes, and Abbaddon should just be replaced by.. um.. by... Generic 10,000 year old uber almost a primarch Chaos Lords. And Marneus Calgar isn't unique, you can just replace him with... the generic Primaris Chapter Master with unique gear and special CP generating abilities.

The idea that this unique guy with a name and special rules is unique, and that unique guy with a name and special rules isn't doesn't carry a lot of water.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Maybe not Tiggy, but I have made mention of removing Chronus and Tellion before. Nobody will miss them and they'd be perfect as generic stand-ins for the purposes you listed.

You keep adding to this list of characters you've decided the people arguing against squatting them wouldn't miss - as an argument for why they wouldn't miss them. I've got Telion, and I use him all the time, loved him as a Scout Squad upgrade. I've got Chronus. Use him less than all the time but still fairly often. I'd miss him. And I'd miss Asmodai. And I still miss Sapphon. I even miss Invictus now that we have a way to kitbash a model for him. Any others you want to add to the list?

BrianDavion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Slayer, this isn't a logical argument for them. It's an emotional one. They want because they want and no amount of reasoning will matter next to those wants.

It doesn't matter that you could just give ALL terminators the option to take a single storm shield and it wouldn't make any difference. They want Deathwing to have their own datasheet for reasons.

lance845, we've been nothing but logical with our arguments, and your dismissiveness is insulting. Grow up.

No you haven't. "I like fluff and pictures of painted models" isn't a logical argument. It's an emotional one.

On the one hand I don't mean to be insulting. On the other I don't actually care how you feel about it..

No, but "people who buy GW products like fluff and painted models" is a logical argument.

On the one hand it doesn't matter if you meant to, on the other, you're just lashing out because you're wrong about everything in this thread.

Wooo! Psychology!

No it isn't. It's a blanket statement about a lot of people with diverse likes and motivations said to make a sad attempt at supporting your position with nothing to back it up. It's less then logical. At best it's a fallacy. At worst it's a lie. Good try though.

"a lot of people like this and want it" is a sad attempt at supporting a position now? you're clutching at straws. and sounding out and out selfish and self centered. apparently no body else's opinion matters and GW should cater only to you?

1) SOME people like this and want it. I agree with that statement. It's also not a logical one. It's an emotional one. A lot is how much? 100 people? 1000? 5000? Also, he doesn't say "a lot". He says "most" or "People who buy GW products like fluff and painted models" despite all the grey plastic everyone on here has seen as evidence to the contrary. So yes. Blanket statements are a sad attempt at supporting a position built on sand. He's got no data to support his "most" or your "a lot" or anyones "people who buy GW products".

2) Sorry if you think I sound selfish because I think it's dumb that they made 2 different knight codexes when they could have made 1 that gave all knights to both armies. I totally see your point about how mean and greedy I am that I wish YOU had to spend LESS money to get access to MORE units. I guess I should reassess my position on how much better it could be for everyone if GW did things more efficiently and stopped thinking only of myself when arguing those points.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Slayer, this isn't a logical argument for them. It's an emotional one. They want because they want and no amount of reasoning will matter next to those wants.

It doesn't matter that you could just give ALL terminators the option to take a single storm shield and it wouldn't make any difference. They want Deathwing to have their own datasheet for reasons.

lance845, we've been nothing but logical with our arguments, and your dismissiveness is insulting. Grow up.

No you haven't. "I like fluff and pictures of painted models" isn't a logical argument. It's an emotional one.

On the one hand I don't mean to be insulting. On the other I don't actually care how you feel about it..

No, but "people who buy GW products like fluff and painted models" is a logical argument.

On the one hand it doesn't matter if you meant to, on the other, you're just lashing out because you're wrong about everything in this thread.

Wooo! Psychology!

No it isn't. It's a blanket statement about a lot of people with diverse likes and motivations said to make a sad attempt at supporting your position with nothing to back it up. It's less then logical. At best it's a fallacy. At worst it's a lie. Good try though.

You mean my posts acknowledged that people with different tastes and wants purchase codexes, which are currently designed to appeal to as many of them as possible, while your posts are trying to force your own personal view on it?

Yeah, totally a mistake on my part. How dare I consider people who aren't me.

The fact that you don't recognize the logic behind having a product that is as inclusive as possible is worrisome. I'm not sure you're properly equipped to be having this discussion. Until you actually start figuring out what a real logical argument is, consider your posts in this thread to be ignored for their lack of value.

Nice try though Cupcake.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Darkshroud? Lieutenant Land Speeders? Dark Talons?

Give them to everyone, or merge it with a current Sheet, ie the Dark Talon.

Deathwing Knights?

Give the Chapters a Unit or Two Unique to them? Give more chapters "Veteran" Terminators?

Deathwing characters that other chapters don't have equivalents of?

The one Deathwing Character? Keep a couple of the Special Characters for each Chapter. Merge the basics, keep the truly unique. Drop some characters to make Generic Versions available to everyone.

Give them to everyone. Why bother having a Codex at all? Just let everyone use whatever they want, mix and match, and they can make up their own special rules too? Why bother having more than one army? Everyone can just play Guard.

Also the Deathwing "characters" they're referring to are the Death Wing Command squad split-offs. The Ancient, the Apothecary, the Champion not necessarily just Belial. Though I suspect they'll get merged back into a command squad for next edition. This new system is too expensive and too clunky. In the best world, they'd remain available as the command squad with a price reduction/rebate, and seperately at a higher cost premium - but still unique for the Ancient and Champion. There is only the one flag bearer, and one champion per company, while I would assume there could be multiple apothecaries.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
So.. show of hands here Space Marine players.. whom here would pay 80 bucks for a codex? people are already saying the Codices are too expensive, and consolidating the dark angels and blood angels codices would only expand this.

Let's assume for a minute that GW does this, dark angel;s and blood angles are given the 3 pages of fluff and sucessor chapters every other chapter in the book is given.
Let's assume that every character has a fluff entry in the codex, and let's assume 2 datasheets a page.

you're looking at adding somewhere in the ballpark of 25 pages to the codex from just HQs etc before adding any units.

Now beyond this blood angels could proably manage fine with Sanguigary guard being rolled into Honorguard. And Death Company could even be reduced to a strat (which might be seen as "meh" at first until blood angels realize they can start tossing out death company sanguigary guard and stuff)

Dark Angels might need some consolidation of their deathwing and ravenwing stuff so IMHO they'd risk losing more.


So basicly it could be done but the result would be a massive and expensive codex, that'd likely have a ton of exceptions etc in the rules.

I'd be pissed enough at three pages of Fluff for the Non-Codex chapters, before you even got the $80.

 Lance845 wrote:


1) SOME people like this and want it. I agree with that statement. It's also not a logical one. It's an emotional one. A lot is how much? 100 people? 1000? 5000? Also, he doesn't say "a lot". He says "most" or "People who buy GW products like fluff and painted models" despite all the grey plastic everyone on here has seen as evidence to the contrary. So yes. Blanket statements are a sad attempt at supporting a position built on sand. He's got no data to support his "most" or your "a lot" or anyones "people who buy GW products".

2) Sorry if you think I sound selfish because I think it's dumb that they made 2 different knight codexes when they could have made 1 that gave all knights to both armies. I totally see your point about how mean and greedy I am that I wish YOU had to spend LESS money to get access to MORE units. I guess I should reassess my position on how much better it could be for everyone if GW did things more efficiently and stopped thinking only of myself when arguing those points.

I suggest rereading my posts to point out where I say everyone likes everything and wants everything. You'll be awhile, because I never actually said that. It's also a logical one, because it has to do with sales for the product. How many? Enough that GW keeps doing it, and keeps feeling the need to expand on the fluff portions, even after they started doing actual market research. So yeah, a blanket statement about how economics of the enterainment industry works.
As for data, you have yet to supply anything for the claim you made prior to mine. Pony up.

Sad you don't get that.

You do sound selfish. Everything you've posted is about what you want.

Maybe you should start thinking about other people.

 Crimson wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
All marines can't all have access to everything.

Why? Why there are not bunch of dedicate Biel-Tan units in a Biel-Tan codex and bunch of dedicated Snakebite units in a Snakebite codex? Why it is only marines who need to be scattetred across several redundant books?

Lets ask the Genestealer Cults. And the Thousand Sons. And the Deathguard.

Let me reiterate: this game is more than its rules, and you'd be destroying an unbroken 40 year legacy.

Game is indeed more than rules. And no one is suggesting taking away the background of the different chapters.

 Mmmpi wrote:

You mean my posts acknowledged that people with different tastes and wants purchase codexes, which are currently designed to appeal to as many of them as possible, while your posts are trying to force your own personal view on it?

Yeah, totally a mistake on my part. How dare I consider people who aren't me.

The fact that you don't recognize the logic behind having a product that is as inclusive as possible is worrisome. I'm not sure you're properly equipped to be having this discussion. Until you actually start figuring out what a real logical argument is, consider your posts in this thread to be ignored for their lack of value.

Nice try though Cupcake.

This discussion starts and ends with why the same datasheets are reprinted over and over again in different publications and the merits or flaws of merging them into a single codex.

The current codex format is flawed. And your arguments for their current format is "But I like it, and I think a majority of other people also like it so I am going to state that everyone who buys GW likes it as though it's a fact". I am all for products that support everyone's favorite aspects of the hobby. I am not for selling people 4 books when you could sell them 1.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

You mean my posts acknowledged that people with different tastes and wants purchase codexes, which are currently designed to appeal to as many of them as possible, while your posts are trying to force your own personal view on it?

Yeah, totally a mistake on my part. How dare I consider people who aren't me.

The fact that you don't recognize the logic behind having a product that is as inclusive as possible is worrisome. I'm not sure you're properly equipped to be having this discussion. Until you actually start figuring out what a real logical argument is, consider your posts in this thread to be ignored for their lack of value.

Nice try though Cupcake.

This discussion starts and ends with why the same datasheets are reprinted over and over again in different publications and the merits or flaws of merging them into a single codex.

The current codex format is flawed. And your arguments for their current format is "But I like it, and I think a majority of other people also like it so I am going to state that everyone who buys GW likes it as though it's a fact". I am all for products that support everyone's favorite aspects of the hobby. I am not for selling people 4 books when you could sell them 1.

Sorry, you still haven't proven you understand a logical argument. Please try again.

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:


1) SOME people like this and want it. I agree with that statement. It's also not a logical one. It's an emotional one. A lot is how much? 100 people? 1000? 5000? Also, he doesn't say "a lot". He says "most" or "People who buy GW products like fluff and painted models" despite all the grey plastic everyone on here has seen as evidence to the contrary. So yes. Blanket statements are a sad attempt at supporting a position built on sand. He's got no data to support his "most" or your "a lot" or anyones "people who buy GW products".

2) Sorry if you think I sound selfish because I think it's dumb that they made 2 different knight codexes when they could have made 1 that gave all knights to both armies. I totally see your point about how mean and greedy I am that I wish YOU had to spend LESS money to get access to MORE units. I guess I should reassess my position on how much better it could be for everyone if GW did things more efficiently and stopped thinking only of myself when arguing those points.

I suggest rereading my posts to point out where I say everyone likes everything and wants everything. You'll be awhile, because I never actually said that.

 Mmmpi wrote:
"people who buy GW products like fluff and painted models"

Didn't really take that long.

It's also a logical one, because it has to do with sales for the product. How many? Enough that GW keeps doing it, and keeps feeling the need to expand on the fluff portions, even after they started doing actual market research. So yeah, a blanket statement about how economics of the enterainment industry works.
As for data, you have yet to supply anything for the claim you made prior to mine. Pony up.

I have never made a claim that required data to support it that I did not point towards data to support it. I.E. You can fit them all into one book without increasing the price.= Indexes.

Sad you don't get that.

You do sound selfish. Everything you've posted is about what you want.

Maybe you should start thinking about other people.

Yeah okay.

 Crimson wrote:

Those who are actually unique like Mephiston can stay. If they're basically just a generic character with a relic they don't need dedicated rules.

Which ones are the generic character with a relic? As near as I can tell they all have a fluff, and most if not all have special rules to go with their relic(s) or they're a generic character without a relic?

Breton wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Those who are actually unique like Mephiston can stay. If they're basically just a generic character with a relic they don't need dedicated rules.

Which ones are the generic character with a relic? As near as I can tell they all have a fluff, and most if not all have special rules to go with their relic(s) or they're a generic character without a relic?

Fluff doesn't justify the unit existing as it's own unique unit. Kit bash a champion or whatever to make it look unique and give it a name of a guy you like. You don't need a datasheet and model for every character that has ever been mentioned in the fluff.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:


1) SOME people like this and want it. I agree with that statement. It's also not a logical one. It's an emotional one. A lot is how much? 100 people? 1000? 5000? Also, he doesn't say "a lot". He says "most" or "People who buy GW products like fluff and painted models" despite all the grey plastic everyone on here has seen as evidence to the contrary. So yes. Blanket statements are a sad attempt at supporting a position built on sand. He's got no data to support his "most" or your "a lot" or anyones "people who buy GW products".

2) Sorry if you think I sound selfish because I think it's dumb that they made 2 different knight codexes when they could have made 1 that gave all knights to both armies. I totally see your point about how mean and greedy I am that I wish YOU had to spend LESS money to get access to MORE units. I guess I should reassess my position on how much better it could be for everyone if GW did things more efficiently and stopped thinking only of myself when arguing those points.

I suggest rereading my posts to point out where I say everyone likes everything and wants everything. You'll be awhile, because I never actually said that.

 Mmmpi wrote:
"people who buy GW products like fluff and painted models"

Didn't really take that long.

It's also a logical one, because it has to do with sales for the product. How many? Enough that GW keeps doing it, and keeps feeling the need to expand on the fluff portions, even after they started doing actual market research. So yeah, a blanket statement about how economics of the enterainment industry works.
As for data, you have yet to supply anything for the claim you made prior to mine. Pony up.

I have never made a claim that required data to support it that I did not point towards data to support it. I.E. You can fit them all into one book without increasing the price.= Indexes.

Sad you don't get that.

You do sound selfish. Everything you've posted is about what you want.

Maybe you should start thinking about other people.

Yeah okay.

Point out the word everybody.

Yeah, you said nobody wants it. So if me saying people requires data, you saying nobody requires data.

Still waiting for your demonstration that you understand a logical argument.

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:


1) SOME people like this and want it. I agree with that statement. It's also not a logical one. It's an emotional one. A lot is how much? 100 people? 1000? 5000? Also, he doesn't say "a lot". He says "most" or "People who buy GW products like fluff and painted models" despite all the grey plastic everyone on here has seen as evidence to the contrary. So yes. Blanket statements are a sad attempt at supporting a position built on sand. He's got no data to support his "most" or your "a lot" or anyones "people who buy GW products".

2) Sorry if you think I sound selfish because I think it's dumb that they made 2 different knight codexes when they could have made 1 that gave all knights to both armies. I totally see your point about how mean and greedy I am that I wish YOU had to spend LESS money to get access to MORE units. I guess I should reassess my position on how much better it could be for everyone if GW did things more efficiently and stopped thinking only of myself when arguing those points.

I suggest rereading my posts to point out where I say everyone likes everything and wants everything. You'll be awhile, because I never actually said that.

 Mmmpi wrote:
"people who buy GW products like fluff and painted models"

Didn't really take that long.

It's also a logical one, because it has to do with sales for the product. How many? Enough that GW keeps doing it, and keeps feeling the need to expand on the fluff portions, even after they started doing actual market research. So yeah, a blanket statement about how economics of the enterainment industry works.
As for data, you have yet to supply anything for the claim you made prior to mine. Pony up.

I have never made a claim that required data to support it that I did not point towards data to support it. I.E. You can fit them all into one book without increasing the price.= Indexes.

Sad you don't get that.

You do sound selfish. Everything you've posted is about what you want.

Maybe you should start thinking about other people.

Yeah okay.

Point out the word everybody.

Ahhh! I see now. You don't actually understand how English works. You see here is how your sentence breaks down.

People who buy GW products is the subject. It is all encompassing. All people who buy GW products. Because you didn't put in another word like some or whatever. It clearly states that of all the people in the world, those that buy GW products....

"like fluff and painted models"

It's a definitive statement about all people who fit the description of the subject and then declares a "fact" about them and their likes. If you don't want to say that everyone who buys GW products like fluff and paint then you need to include some other words in there to refine the subject to be more open ended and less all encompassing.

Yeah, you said nobody wants it.

No I didn't. Quote me.

So if me saying people requires data, you saying nobody requires data.

Still waiting for your demonstration that you understand a logical argument.

There is no rational argument I can make to the irrational that will satisfy them. As this quoted post proves. I thought you were going to start ignoring me?

 Lance845 wrote:
@Mmmpi You wouldn't. The datasheets have so much in common across all the codexes that you just don't need that many pages. Evidence, Index Imperium 1. It has all the datasheets and isn't 200 pages and includes the other armies people are not suggesting get folded into the SM dex. GK and DW can get folded into a agents of the imperium dex with sisters of silence and the assassins.

And none of the fluff.

Also :

224-page softback book
It includes 207 datasheets


How exactly does a 224 page softback book including 207 datasheets count as "isn't 200 pages"?

Codex:SM has somewhere around 286 pages of fluff and artwork. Codex DA: has somewhere around 156. If BA and SW have about the same - That's 978 pages. 156*3= 468+286 =754 + 224.

Do you look this stuff up before you decide to make it up? I mean, its not that hard to type Index Imperium 1 into a google search.

He thinks he's logical. Key word being 'thinks'.

He's also ignored all the other page count related math that's been posted, so yeah, he's just cherry picking at this point, and trying to deflect.

It's almost like being on a Reddit political thread, but some of those trolls are really good at it. He isn't.

 Lance845 wrote:


Add those in to the book, and you're looking at tripling it's size.

1) You don't need painting guides in the book. Painting guides are everywhere for free including GWs own website.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

You mean my posts acknowledged that people with different tastes and wants purchase codexes, which are currently designed to appeal to as many of them as possible, while your posts are trying to force your own personal view on it?

Yeah, totally a mistake on my part. How dare I consider people who aren't me.

The fact that you don't recognize the logic behind having a product that is as inclusive as possible is worrisome. I'm not sure you're properly equipped to be having this discussion. Until you actually start figuring out what a real logical argument is, consider your posts in this thread to be ignored for their lack of value.

Nice try though Cupcake.

This discussion starts and ends with why the same datasheets are reprinted over and over again in different publications and the merits or flaws of merging them into a single codex.

The current codex format is flawed. And your arguments for their current format is "But I like it, and I think a majority of other people also like it so I am going to state that everyone who buys GW likes it as though it's a fact". I am all for products that support everyone's favorite aspects of the hobby. I am not for selling people 4 books when you could sell them 1.

your claim that the codex system as it stands is "flawed" however is your opinion being presented as fact. I mean at what point does something become a unique eneugh army to merit it's own distinct codex, as opposed to being mixed in with someone elses?

Is Deathguard distinct eneugh from Chaos Space Marines? surly they COULD be folded into codex CSM (until this edition they where) of course now that they are distinct they very much have their own character. (I'm using this as a pure example BTW, GW did a much better job of making Death Guard feel like a independant codex was warrented) why not fold sisters of Battle into codex Space Marines? toss in a page of rules reducing their str and toughness, give them a invul save and faith abilities, and maybe 1 or two distinct units. surely thats just a page or two of unqiue rules right? why do we need a seperate codex for them?

and why not just fold Space Marines into the guard codex, as "codex Imperium" give everyone access to the tanks, and just slide in tac, devestator and assault marines!

I apologize for the reduco absurdium. but the point I'm getting at here is you can make all sorts of arguments for consoladation, and right now, it ain't going to happen because GW is expanding codex choice. yes you might view having to buy another book as a down side, (for the record I doubt GW anticipates their regular customers buying more then a half dozen codices at most. Most people'll buy the proper flavor of space marine codex for them and thats that) but I doubt Games Workshop sees it that way. They like money!


as for the focus on people who like GW;'s products liking fluff and art. I'd be willing to bet thats truer then it isn't. warhammer 40k is a visual medium with a lot of story people like that, several Horus Heresy books where on the NYT best seller list. I suspect more people are intreasted in 40k for the fluff then play the game. so yeah I think it's safe to assume most 40k fans like that stuff.

 Lance845 wrote:


Then show some painted models. Showing some painted models is not painting guides. Hey guess what? GW used to sell whole books that were nothing but painting guides. Buy those.

I did. They're no longer accurate as the paints and methodology has changed quite a bit since then. For starters, UM don't paing their guns red anymore.

You don't need the fluff. You don't BUY the codex to find out about the army you picked. You already read up about the army before you picked up the codex to buy it. Or did you really drop 50.00 on a complete unknown in the hopes that you would end up liking the stories and pictures? Also, no. Not MOST people. Don't assume anything about MOST peoples motivations without some solid data to back it up.

Irony and Self-Awareness Alert. Aren't you the guy telling us what we do and don't need based off your desire to support your previous attempt to tell us what we do and don't need?

You don't have anything to show that 51%+ of all players buy their codex and pick their armies because of fluff. And you DEFINITELY don't have anything to show us that says those players need that fluff in the codex to justify buying the shrink wrapped books to find out if they like the fluff.

6 powers do not take up an entire page.

Despite how many times they... do. Interomancy and the Librarius Discipline both take a full page in my ebooks. Anyone have the Vanguard codex supplement? I'm pretty sure Obscuration takes a full page. My google search suggests it does. This is really getting embarassing. I'ts also getting harder to believe you're ACCIDENTALLY wrong so often.

Look at the index. 1 Page to list all the units they get from the whole single book and their special rules. 1 page for relics and psychic powers. MAYBE needing 1 more page for warlord traits but probably not. Again, you don't need the sheer volume of pictures and you don't need to reprint the land raiders 4 times. 1 datasheet for each variant probably on 2 pages with a single picture of a land raider will do, if that. The Nid codex has 2 pages as 1 big splash image with all the units with a little number next to them. Then at the bottom it lists which units are what by those numbers. It takes up minimal real estate and lets everyone know what everything is.

You want the book to be compact and cost less? Stop filling it with bs. Then you have room for the rules in a more easily digestible format that makes everything easier to find.

Breton wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
@Mmmpi You wouldn't. The datasheets have so much in common across all the codexes that you just don't need that many pages. Evidence, Index Imperium 1. It has all the datasheets and isn't 200 pages and includes the other armies people are not suggesting get folded into the SM dex. GK and DW can get folded into a agents of the imperium dex with sisters of silence and the assassins.

And none of the fluff.

Also :

224-page softback book
It includes 207 datasheets


How exactly does a 224 page softback book including 207 datasheets count as "isn't 200 pages"?

Because it also included all the datasheets and information for deathwatch and grey knights which nobody was suggesting be merged in with the standard SM codex. So How many pages did it just drop down by?

Codex:SM has somewhere around 286 pages of fluff and artwork. Codex DA: has somewhere around 156. If BA and SW have about the same - That's 978 pages. 156*3= 468+286 =754 + 224.

Do you look this stuff up before you decide to make it up? I mean, its not that hard to type Index Imperium 1 into a google search.

You don't need every page of fluff from DA, BA, and SW. Every edition new stories get added and older stories get reduced or cut all together. A merged codex preferably has NONE of the fluff or painting guide and instead you got to purchase, separately, an actual painting guide that covered more in depth your preferred chapters schemes and heraldry based on company and all that. You would get even more room to have even more indepth fluff with even more guides for the paint including color selection and technique tips. without getting in the way of the rules you need while at the table. 1 SM codex for rules. Many fluff and paint guides for each chapter so they can actually focus in on each of them and give the fluff the space it needs to breath free of rules. More room for successor information and schemes. More room to focus on what the book is for.

Again, I am not against the fluff. I just think it's dumb as feth how they format the books now.. And making everyone pay 50.00 for inferior products that most repeat the same information as 3 other 50.00 products is bs. You could have 1 30.00-40.00 index style book for rules and another 30.00 book for fluff and paint and you would get a better version of all of it for everyone.

ohh so your master plan is instead of buying one codex that contains the rules I need for the chapter I want to play, I have to buy two. seriously your proposeal is to soak the "filthy casuals" for more money, so the die hards can save money? yeah that makes busniess sense! ohh wait it doesn't!

Both Eldar schools take a page each in their codex.

Blood Angels and Death Watch each take a page from their books too. (each).

 Lance845 wrote:


No, YOU don't NEED it either. You might LIKE it. But you don't NEED it. I don't have anything to show. But then, I am not making claims about what motivates MOST people. Or what MANY stores do or don't do. I can speak to the experiences I have had. Of the 5 local stores that sell GW product 1 has had SOME codexes open. Not all. Again, did you spend 50.00 on your codex without knowing about the army first?

Didn't you just tell someone who claims to be motivated by a NEED for the fluff and pictures they don't NEED to fluff and pictures? So you are making claims about what motivates most people?

Hey guy, EVERY unique unit for the BA is in the index. The index is less than 200 pages with MORE armies then I am saying go in the SM dex. ALL the unique datasheets fit in there nice and snug.

It's more than 200 pages. It's still 224 pages. No matter how many times you "accidentally" get something wrong, this won't make it correct. It'll be roughtly 978 pages. I already did the estimation and math for you.