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Thing is, they reckon 10 to 12 models/side is a 2-3 hr game. I’m pretty sure you don’t need much more than that for a force, especially if you invest in magnetising the ordnance. That’s one box of dakkajets and one of fighta-bommers, maybe with a box of ‘eavy bommers when they come out.

Finally snapped some pics of my old AI fighters and bombers that I just dug out of storage in case people want to see the potential designs...

A little disappointed that the scale has changed and really hoping I could do something with these in the new game, but I'll be getting the new box.

Ork 'Eavy Bommer



Ork Eavy Bommer - rear bomb bay


All my Orkz


Chaos:


Imperial Lightnings:


Eldar:


Size comparison:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
The price when I start adding up all the bits and pieces I'd like is definitely a bit hurty (especially when considering you don't actually end up with a hell of a lot of models at the end of it).

I feel like they might actually be more expensive than the old resin AI models? Not sure.

If GW are slowly bringing back Epic with AT and now AI, I don't think it's going to work because at these prices building an Epic army is going to be very expensive.

Very expensive compare to? Decade old Epic?

The only really overpriced kit in the epic-at scale atm is the Imperial Knights.

If Epic gets re-released it'll have army deals where AT and AI models cost far less than they do now.

That’s my order in.

Just the boxed game for now, until I’m sure I’ve got a pool of opponents.

Ditto, set my alarm to just a smidge past eleven my time, so I could put in my order as soon as possible and not miss out.

Went with the starter, campaign book, map, cards, dice and novels, I can always expand later, especially with a second wave of Ork stuff maybe one or two weeks out.

The planes look great but in the end I'm holding back on this one. Only because I'd rather have some other xenos. I will likely jump all in once Eldar/Chaos or Tyranids appear (helldrakes would look awesome in this and I'd be hopeful that Tyranids would see some more specialist air strains ]

Starter, Thunderbolt, Destroyer, Ground Asset, may be more dakkajet, kinda annoyed I had to buy Fighta bommer if I want kustom shoota bits, Books and card I'll watch youtube review beforehand, not that I think I would find a scene here anyway....

Then I'll make a bomb field terrain out of those left over Bomb bits, they gave us so many bomb bits, maybe one day when epic hit they'll be more useful.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Thing is, they reckon 10 to 12 models/side is a 2-3 hr game. I’m pretty sure you don’t need much more than that for a force, especially if you invest in magnetising the ordnance. That’s one box of dakkajets and one of fighta-bommers, maybe with a box of ‘eavy bommers when they come out.

I don't know how easy it'll be to magnetise those weapons, they're pretty small. In the old AI days I never bothered modelling the ordnance like missiles and bombs, too mission dependent, just make up some counters/markers to put on the model's bases to know what bombs and missiles it has on board.

You might only *need* a box or two of models to play *a* game, but it's not like Blood Bowl where once you have a team you'll be done. If you actually get in to AI, you'll probably want 2 squadrons (to make it easier to find games, being a specialist game buying 1 squadron may just see it sitting on the shelf). Then in those squadrons you'll probably want 2 boxes worth of fighters, 1 box of bombers, and 1 of transports so that you can play a range of mission types (though some races there'll be overlap between bombers and transports, others they'll be separate, others you might be wanting even more variety). Then maybe buy some ground defences, then do you need to buy the race specific cards (not sure if all the aircraft rules are in the books or do they need to be bought separate?). Then if you don't get the starter set you might also need the tokens and a game board (given the board that comes in the box is only a poster you might want to buy one either way).

It's going to add up quickly for folk who want to play more than a couple of intro games.

So the initial buy in isn't terrible, but if you want to really get in to it rather than just playing a few games then shelving it, it's going to get expensive fast.

You could just buy Wings of Vengeance and call it a day if you wanted I suppose, but old AI I built up 4 races worth of squadrons by the end (some of which were large squadrons where I had options of what I'd lay down, others were just small fighter groups for the sake of variety and/or having something my friends could use to play with). Doing that in new AI looks like it'll put a bigger dent in the wallet than the FW options.

Do we know how big the hexes are? I have plenty of hex maps from the recent Steve Jackson Games releases for OGRE.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Thing is, they reckon 10 to 12 models/side is a 2-3 hr game. I’m pretty sure you don’t need much more than that for a force, especially if you invest in magnetising the ordnance. That’s one box of dakkajets and one of fighta-bommers, maybe with a box of ‘eavy bommers when they come out.

I don't know how easy it'll be to magnetise those weapons, they're pretty small. In the old AI days I never bothered modelling the ordnance like missiles and bombs, too mission dependent, just make up some counters/markers to put on the model's bases to know what bombs and missiles it has on board.

You might only *need* a box or two of models to play *a* game, but it's not like Blood Bowl where once you have a team you'll be done. If you actually get in to AI, you'll probably want 2 squadrons (to make it easier to find games, being a specialist game buying 1 squadron may just see it sitting on the shelf). Then in those squadrons you'll probably want 2 boxes worth of fighters, 1 box of bombers, and 1 of transports so that you can play a range of mission types (though some races there'll be overlap between bombers and transports, others they'll be separate, others you might be wanting even more variety). Then maybe buy some ground defences, then do you need to buy the race specific cards (not sure if all the aircraft rules are in the books or do they need to be bought separate?). Then if you don't get the starter set you might also need the tokens and a game board (given the board that comes in the box is only a poster you might want to buy one either way).

It's going to add up quickly for folk who want to play more than a couple of intro games.

So the initial buy in isn't terrible, but if you want to really get in to it rather than just playing a few games then shelving it, it's going to get expensive fast.

You could just buy Wings of Vengeance and call it a day if you wanted I suppose, but old AI I built up 4 races worth of squadrons by the end (some of which were large squadrons where I had options of what I'd lay down, others were just small fighter groups for the sake of variety and/or having something my friends could use to play with). Doing that in new AI looks like it'll put a bigger dent in the wallet than the FW options.

Blood Bowl is a game of 11 football players.

The "large squadron" that you want is close to apocalypse level of unit in a normal 40k game, each of those aircraft kit is equal to a normal bloodbowl team in term of sprue count/size. Of course they will be more expensive than an AI squadron made in resin from 20 years ago.

Now this would be a valid price complain if GW made these aircrafts in a few pieces like they did many years ago with epic kit, pack in tiny sprue and sell them at the same price.

I've ordered my starter pack!

 CptJake wrote:
Do we know how big the hexes are? I have plenty of hex maps from the recent Steve Jackson Games releases for OGRE.

2", which is I think way too large for the Ogre Battlefields kickstarter that I was a backer of. I can check later today.

 CptJake wrote:
Do we know how big the hexes are? I have plenty of hex maps from the recent Steve Jackson Games releases for OGRE.

Not sure, but I don’t think it’ll be long until map makers release clear overlays, allowing existing vinyl matts to be adapted

 infinite_array wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
Do we know how big the hexes are? I have plenty of hex maps from the recent Steve Jackson Games releases for OGRE.

2", which is I think way too large for the Ogre Battlefields kickstarter that I was a backer of. I can check later today.

I just measured, my Ogre maps have 1.5 inch (side to side) hexes. Darn, I was really hoping to use those.

Chopstick wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Thing is, they reckon 10 to 12 models/side is a 2-3 hr game. I’m pretty sure you don’t need much more than that for a force, especially if you invest in magnetising the ordnance. That’s one box of dakkajets and one of fighta-bommers, maybe with a box of ‘eavy bommers when they come out.

I don't know how easy it'll be to magnetise those weapons, they're pretty small. In the old AI days I never bothered modelling the ordnance like missiles and bombs, too mission dependent, just make up some counters/markers to put on the model's bases to know what bombs and missiles it has on board.

You might only *need* a box or two of models to play *a* game, but it's not like Blood Bowl where once you have a team you'll be done. If you actually get in to AI, you'll probably want 2 squadrons (to make it easier to find games, being a specialist game buying 1 squadron may just see it sitting on the shelf). Then in those squadrons you'll probably want 2 boxes worth of fighters, 1 box of bombers, and 1 of transports so that you can play a range of mission types (though some races there'll be overlap between bombers and transports, others they'll be separate, others you might be wanting even more variety). Then maybe buy some ground defences, then do you need to buy the race specific cards (not sure if all the aircraft rules are in the books or do they need to be bought separate?). Then if you don't get the starter set you might also need the tokens and a game board (given the board that comes in the box is only a poster you might want to buy one either way).

It's going to add up quickly for folk who want to play more than a couple of intro games.

So the initial buy in isn't terrible, but if you want to really get in to it rather than just playing a few games then shelving it, it's going to get expensive fast.

You could just buy Wings of Vengeance and call it a day if you wanted I suppose, but old AI I built up 4 races worth of squadrons by the end (some of which were large squadrons where I had options of what I'd lay down, others were just small fighter groups for the sake of variety and/or having something my friends could use to play with). Doing that in new AI looks like it'll put a bigger dent in the wallet than the FW options.

Blood Bowl is a game of 11 football players.

The "large squadron" that you want is close to apocalypse level of unit in a normal 40k game, each of those aircraft kit is equal to a normal bloodbowl team in term of sprue count/size. Of course they will be more expensive than an AI squadron made in resin from 20 years ago.

Now this would be a valid price complain if GW made these aircrafts in a few pieces like they did many years ago with epic kit, pack in tiny sprue and sell them at the same price.

I don't know what the relevance of being "apocalypse level of unit in a normal 40k game" has to do anything, we're not talking about a normal 40k game.

I should say I don't specifically think they're expensive compared to FW, I just used that as an example, rather I just think it's expensive. That's it. I think they're expensive. Whether talking on a per sprue basis ($35AUD per sprue) or on a total cost to build a force basis ($280 to $350AUD for a squadron that can play multiple mission types), it's expensive. I only mentioned FW as a reference point as most people consider FW to be on the upper end of price.

I think saying the kits are a bit more complicated is a cop out, the cost should be partway reflective of the complexity of the kits, the actual model count and what a player is likely going to buy to complete their force/team/squadron/whatever.

BB is crap value on a per sprue basis, so comparing AI kit prices to BB kit prices on a per sprue basis I'd say both are overpriced, but you get 12 players and a full team which makes it good value in the context of the game and a reasonable price IMO, whereas AI you might technically be able to play a game with 1 box of models but realistically if you're going to get in to the game you're going to end up with more like 3 to 5 kits worth of models per squadron you're likely to collect.

On the other extreme if you had a game that only needed 1 kit with 1 big sprue worth of bits to make 1 model, but that was likely all you were going to buy, making the cost per sprue large is a reasonable way to go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CptJake wrote:

 infinite_array wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
Do we know how big the hexes are? I have plenty of hex maps from the recent Steve Jackson Games releases for OGRE.

2", which is I think way too large for the Ogre Battlefields kickstarter that I was a backer of. I can check later today.

I just measured, my Ogre maps have 1.5 inch (side to side) hexes. Darn, I was really hoping to use those.

Given the rules are pretty similar to the original AI, you could really play this game without the hex map, they're just needed for the manoeuvres really. That's probably what I'll end up doing so I can play on a 6x4 table.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
[quote=Chopstick 778581 10556764 null
I think saying the kits are a bit more complicated is a cop out, the cost should be partway reflective of the complexity of the kits, the actual model count and what a player is likely going to buy to complete their force/team/squadron/whatever.

BB is crap value on a per sprue basis, so comparing AI kit prices to BB kit prices on a per sprue basis I'd say both are overpriced, but you get 12 players and a full team which makes it good value in the context of the game and a reasonable price IMO, whereas AI you might technically be able to play a game with 1 box of models but realistically if you're going to get in to the game you're going to end up with more like 3 to 5 kits worth of models per squadron you're likely to collect.

On the other extreme if you had a game that only needed 1 kit with 1 big sprue worth of bits to make 1 model, but that was likely all you were going to buy, making the cost per sprue large is a reasonable way to go.

Again you are comparing a game of 11 football player to another game (AI/Epic) with no upper limit, and the limit that you set is equal to a very large /apocalypse level battle. You expecting 2 completely different games to have the same upper limit is unrealistic, a more fair comparison is a game with similarly very high/no upper limit, like 40k, or AT.

What are the "per sprue basic price" are you comparing too, because I'm comparing them to 2017-2019 GW price and they seem about on par with 2017-2018 GW price. I don't count models to determine price, I based them on how much effort and resource was put into the kit. I'd rather buy squad of 10-dude on 3 sprue than a squad 20 monopose one with 10 each on a duplicate sprue, for the same price.

I'll probably just order the book, the Thunderbolts, the Destroyers, and the bigger map in a couple of hours. This stuff will be sold through Amazon for 10% off in a couple of weeks so I'll load up then.

I'm actually thinking 2 starters and skip the Rynn mat.

A second starter costs about as much as a pair or Marauders and the Rynn mat and gives you the same surface area when combining two basic mats (tho oblong rather than square, obviously) and a lot of free planes on top of those two Marauders.

Plus you don't get the bad feels of the basic mat being replaced outright by day 1 DLC.

Chopstick wrote:
...and the limit that you set is equal to a very large /apocalypse level battle.

And again I don't see how this has any relevance to anything, AI isn't normal 40k.

The limit I set is what I think someone who reasonably wants to play a broad range of missions might buy. It's somewhat arbitrary but based on what I think is realistic given how the game (AI) functions, not how a completely unrelated game (40k/apocalypse) functions.

A couple of boxes of fighters for a decent sized dogfight mission.

A box or so of bombers for ground attack / defence missions.

A box or so of transport aircraft for troop drop / close support missions.

It also doesn't end up being a terribly large number of models, probably 12ish.

I don't count models to determine price, I based them on how much effort and resource was put into the kit.

To me it's a balance, no one factor is reasonable to determine price. The number of sprues, the number of models those sprues make, the number of models you are likely going to need to buy to make a force / team / army / whatever. All those things factor in to it.

I reckon $35AUD for a sprue that doesn't look terribly large is a lot ask, maybe you can find other models (particularly GW models) where that is not the worst, but in general if I were buying sprues for the sake of sprues I'd say $35AUD for a sprue is bad.

But I don't just look at sprue count / size. Otherwise I'd say BB is poor value, when I actually think it's good value.

I reckon $70AUD for 4 fighters or 2 bombers at that scale is a lot to ask.

But I don't just look at model count per dollar. Otherwise I'd say most character models (whether GW or otherwise) would be terrible value, but many are quite good value IMO.

I reckon $280-350AUD for a single squadron of decent size relative to the rules of the game is quite expensive, especially given that doesn't include accessories required to play the game and given the nature of the game is such that folk might want multiple squadrons.

But I don't just look at the total cost of a force. There are many games out there that end up with a bigger blow to the wallet than that.

It's on balance of those factors that I think AI is expensive.

I already conceded in a previous post that if you're just looking to scratch the surface of the game with 1 small squadron and / or be content with the starter set, then I don't think it's terrible value. But in my experience that's not how AI is built to work, it's more suited to building up an inventory of 10 to 20 models or more from multiple races that allow you to play more mission types, have more varied gameplay, play against folk who themselves haven't bought in to the game, and have some cool models to stick in the display case.

I think we've chatted enough on price at this point, I've made it pretty clear how and why *I* think it's on the expensive side, I'm not trying to change opinions of people who don't think the same way, just expressing my views on it. Also it's not like it's out of my budget, I'm definitely buying in to it, I spent hundreds on the previous AI game, the only question is how deep I buy in, and if it were maybe a bit better value I could see myself collecting a large chunk of the range.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Chopstick wrote:
...and the limit that you set is equal to a very large /apocalypse level battle.

And again I don't see how this has any relevance to anything, AI isn't normal 40k.

The limit I set is what I think someone who reasonably wants to play a broad range of missions might buy. It's somewhat arbitrary but based on what I think is realistic given how the game (AI) functions, not how a completely unrelated game (40k/apocalypse) functions.

A couple of boxes of fighters for a decent sized dogfight mission.

A box or so of bombers for ground attack / defence missions.

A box or so of transport aircraft for troop drop / close support missions.

It also doesn't end up being a terribly large number of models, probably 12ish.

Comparing AI to 40k is more fair than comparing it to Blood Bowl, which you can only field 11 guy, and some in the reserve, Blood Bowl didn't have apocalypse battle with 100 players on the field, There are no limit for both AI and 40k. 11 players in Blood bowl isn't the equivalent of 11 aircrafts.

2 boxes of Fighter and 1 box of bomber is 250+ points, probably some of the largest alternative force battle in old AI that you can fight, and you want even bigger force? Only Narrative Force in big scenario are bigger than that.

Between AI and AT, we can now play specific takes on Apocalypse, where Flyers and Titans truly belong.

And at a price most can pocket.

Chopstick wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Chopstick wrote:
...and the limit that you set is equal to a very large /apocalypse level battle.

And again I don't see how this has any relevance to anything, AI isn't normal 40k.

The limit I set is what I think someone who reasonably wants to play a broad range of missions might buy. It's somewhat arbitrary but based on what I think is realistic given how the game (AI) functions, not how a completely unrelated game (40k/apocalypse) functions.

A couple of boxes of fighters for a decent sized dogfight mission.

A box or so of bombers for ground attack / defence missions.

A box or so of transport aircraft for troop drop / close support missions.

It also doesn't end up being a terribly large number of models, probably 12ish.

Comparing AI to 40k is more fair than comparing it to Blood Bowl, which you can only field 11 guy, and some in the reserve, Blood Bowl didn't have apocalypse battle with 100 players on the field, There are no limit for both AI and 40k. 11 players in Blood bowl isn't the equivalent of 11 aircrafts.

2 boxes of Fighter and 1 box of bomber is 250+ points, probably some of the largest alternative force battle in old AI that you can fight, and you want even bigger force? Only Narrative Force in big scenario are bigger than that.

Honestly I don't get why you're bringing up apocalypse games at all, if you had a point it's completely gone over my head It's at a completely different scale, like, literally. Just because 6 aircraft is a lot in 40k doesn't mean anything to AI, the same way Warlord Titan in 40k being rare means anything to AT, or the same way the non-existence of Imperial Cruisers in 40k means anything to BFG.

From memory the largest scenarios in the old AI were 300pts, but you still managed to miss my point that different scenarios require different aircraft, you don't have a one size fits all squadron. My saying if you actually want to get in to AI you'll probably want 3 to 5 boxes per squadron you want to build up doesn't mean I'm suggesting you need to put down 3 to 5 boxes worth of models in each and every game you play and just smoosh them against your opponent's 3 to 5 boxes of models.

It's not really like 40k where you build a X point army, take that X point army to a game, place all X points down on the table and mash them up against the X points of models your opponent bought.

Isn't this argument futile? If Mr Skink thinks it is too pricey he need not buy into the game, If Chopstick thinks the game is acceptable let him buy it as Allseeingskink has said he is just telling us his view, it is neither right or wrong.

Quite so, if either party wishes to continue the discussion, please take it elsewhere.

The preorders look like they're up for the UK, and I see a box of two Imperial Marauder Destroyers, and a box of two Imperial Marauder Bombers.

Are those the exact same kits, built differently (i.e., someone with patience might magnetize 'em to make both), or are they really different kits?

Or maybe we don't know yet?

They look like different kits that have two sprues. One that's the same and another that's different (the weapons sprue).

Usually when GW has multi-kit boxes it lists that you can build multiple items from it. Doesn't have that in the description.

Yeah, it’s two different kits. They show different boxes for them.

Bschwi1 wrote:
Isn't this argument futile? If Mr Skink thinks it is too pricey he need not buy into the game, If Chopstick thinks the game is acceptable let him buy it as Allseeingskink has said he is just telling us his view, it is neither right or wrong.

The reason I posted again in spite of saying there wasn't much point continuing the conversation is the last couple of posts shifted away from price and toward how large a squadron someone is likely to buy, which is a (mildly) interesting discussion in its own right.

I actually really want AI to do well, I think it's one of the best aerial combat games around and I hope it becomes popular, I wish Blood Red Skies used a rules system similar to AI. The emphasis on outmanoeuvring your opponent without either oversimplifying it to the point it doesn't look like air combat but also not going in to such excruciating detail that it becomes an academic exercise is what makes AI a good game.

At least GW are advertising it this time, when FW did AI I didn't even know it existed until not long before it died.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pancakeonions wrote:
The preorders look like they're up for the UK, and I see a box of two Imperial Marauder Destroyers, and a box of two Imperial Marauder Bombers.

Are those the exact same kits, built differently (i.e., someone with patience might magnetize 'em to make both), or are they really different kits?

Or maybe we don't know yet?

There's a common sprue that makes up the fuselage and wings, but the armaments sprue is different for the two variants.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I actually really want AI to do well, I think it's one of the best aerial combat games around and I hope it becomes popular, I wish Blood Red Skies used a rules system similar to AI. The emphasis on outmanoeuvring your opponent without either oversimplifying it to the point it doesn't look like air combat but also not going in to such excruciating detail that it becomes an academic exercise is what makes AI a good game.

Oh yeah. Blood Red Sky goes waaaaay over the top when it comes to simplifying air combat. Doesn't make it enough of an interesting game unfortunately.

And speaking of other aircraft games, both Bag the Hun and Check Your 6! (which ranges from WWII to Modern aircraft) use hexes, so there's a couple example of good rules that use hexes to simulate air combat. It also means that it's probably best to get bigger play areas unless they've crunched the unit movement down to work in smaller sized game boards.