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 Crablezworth wrote:
I feel like it makes sense if there are more models yet to be released but, seems a bit much for a handful of models.

SM + AM alone already have more model than the core trio-titan and knight in AT, yet AT is a game with more variety because of the legio , maniple, stratagem. It's about writing a good, fun rule that give people a bunch of option and ideas to think about.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


You could use the old manoeuvre templates and play it without the squares, treating 1 point of movement as 2" instead of 1 square, but you might need to tweak some of the manoeuvrability values.

People used to make custom templates that you could download and cut out (the ones that came with the game were square sheets with arrows, the custom ones usually have cut outs for the hex base to key into so there's less ambiguity).

In the old version, aircraft were less agile than they are now, but IMO that was better because it did more too separate low agility aircraft (bombers and whatnot) from fighters.

I'll have to give it another look, then. Cheers!


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Chopstick wrote:


SM + AM alone already have more model than the core trio-titan and knight in AT, yet AT is a game with more variety because of the legio , maniple, stratagem. It's about writing a good, fun rule that give people a bunch of option and ideas to think about.

I was also thinking this, and in plastic too.

This aside, I see this as a good sign for Titanicus also, as the article encourages the new book alongside games of THH and AT. I was expecting some announcement for both AI and AT in August, and we've now got this new AI book. With a bit of luck there might be something mentioned on another forthcoming Heresy Thursday...

SamusDrake wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


You could use the old manoeuvre templates and play it without the squares, treating 1 point of movement as 2" instead of 1 square, but you might need to tweak some of the manoeuvrability values.

People used to make custom templates that you could download and cut out (the ones that came with the game were square sheets with arrows, the custom ones usually have cut outs for the hex base to key into so there's less ambiguity).

In the old version, aircraft were less agile than they are now, but IMO that was better because it did more too separate low agility aircraft (bombers and whatnot) from fighters.

I'll have to give it another look, then. Cheers!

Though I guess if you don't like the hexes I'd probably just recommend you play the old version of the game if you can find a copy of the books either 2nd hand or online somewhere But I think there's a few aircraft that didn't exist in the original (Necrons weren't around).

There were 2 books, the original rulebook (has a Thunderbolt on the cover) then an expansion (has a Tau Barracuda on the cover) that added some additional aircraft and scenarios.

After I made that comment about using the old templates, I remembered that the old manoeuvre templates didn't just tell you how far you turned, but they also had changes in speed and altitude depending on the manoeuvre (a very tight turn might slow you down, a split S or Immelman would either decrease or increase your altitude, some manoeuvres let you rapidly change altitude/speed others made it harder to do so). The new version of the game changed things by separating manoeuvres from changes in speed and altitude, in the old version they were linked.

Chopstick wrote:


The 1kson paint scheme looks dope though.

It does indeed. It’s giving me major Chris Foss vibes.

I'm legit sad that they've gone for Horus Heresy. Cause this means they have considered the 40K period complete and that means - no harridanes and no tyranids, not even genestealer cults stealing a few aircraft :(

 Overread wrote:
I'm legit sad that they've gone for Horus Heresy. Cause this means they have considered the 40K period complete and that means - no harridanes and no tyranids, not even genestealer cults stealing a few aircraft :(

plus, it is going to be SM vs SM due to the setting, and chaos sadly never got included in the current setting, so no more exenos, and IG is questionable in AI from now on. Game WAS dead, it is permanently put to rest now. I doubt FW will make a chaos faction for a non existing setting. (unless we get chaos as part of the 30k setting......)


Just cus AT managed to pull off one faction facing itself due to an exelent core rule book (far, far above the standards of GW rules made over the past 8 years), do not mean they will be able to do it with AI. They are not changing the core rules to make it more like the OG game, they are just pulling a 30k shroud over it, and the special rules of each SM and chaos chapter moust likely wont be enugh if they are going to be as simple as what the game is now.

This my inital toughs of the press release, we ofc have to wait for the rules to drop, but i have very, very low hopes for this new spacemarine game at the present time of writing.

 Overread wrote:
I'm legit sad that they've gone for Horus Heresy. Cause this means they have considered the 40K period complete and that means - no harridanes and no tyranids, not even genestealer cults stealing a few aircraft :(

Or they wanted to make book with minimal need for new models in the meanwhile.

Where in UK law does it state they can't do 40k - 30k - 40k books?-)

It's of course possible no more 40k but then again this doesn't rule out further 40k rules in future. After all there were 40k rules being released after 30k rules first game out in 40k side. GW isn't limited to supporting just one period at a time.

Overread wrote:I'm legit sad that they've gone for Horus Heresy. Cause this means they have considered the 40K period complete and that means - no harridanes and no tyranids, not even genestealer cults stealing a few aircraft :(

FrozenDwarf wrote:plus, it is going to be SM vs SM due to the setting, and chaos sadly never got included in the current setting, so no more exenos, and IG is questionable in AI from now on. Game WAS dead, it is permanently put to rest now. I doubt FW will make a chaos faction for a non existing setting. (unless we get chaos as part of the 30k setting......)

This is one of the easiest books to put out. They already have most of the models and they're just pushing out a campaign book with, most likely, a couple of resin models to keep the game ticking over. Not forgetting to mention tie ins to 30k and Titanicus.

As for the game being dead, I'd find it unlikely. It may not be the big seller like Titanicus or Blood Bowl, but there are plenty of rumours that it sells enough to justify ongoing support.

 Overread wrote:
I'm legit sad that they've gone for Horus Heresy. Cause this means they have considered the 40K period complete and that means - no harridanes and no tyranids, not even genestealer cults stealing a few aircraft :(

Err, just because they're releasing a 30k book doesn't mean 40k is finished. I'd say there's a good chance the whole game is finished due to lack of popularity, but releasing a 30k book hardly means they aren't allowed to come back to 40k later.

I personally hope they take the opportunity to revise the rules, they probably won't because they'll likely want to take the lowest effort approach, but IMO the rules were a big part of the thing that killed AI so a v2 with a bit more thought into it could be a great thing.


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 zedmeister wrote:
As for the game being dead, I'd find it unlikely. It may not be the big seller like Titanicus or Blood Bowl, but there are plenty of rumours that it sells enough to justify ongoing support.

What rumours? Other than the initial release when the store owner told me it was selling extremely well, I haven't heard anything since to indicate that it's been selling well. Some of the SM stuff sold out quickly, but I think that was more likely to be under manufacturing than massive popularity.

From a financial standpoint it makes a lot of sense to do a HH book. Marine releases were the only time I saw any AI stuff move. Everything else is regularly on clearance sales. If a HH book results in enough stock selling to convince the suits it's financially viable to keep producing AI stuff it's probably a win.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 zedmeister wrote:
As for the game being dead, I'd find it unlikely. It may not be the big seller like Titanicus or Blood Bowl, but there are plenty of rumours that it sells enough to justify ongoing support.

What rumours? Other than the initial release when the store owner told me it was selling extremely well, I haven't heard anything since to indicate that it's been selling well. Some of the SM stuff sold out quickly, but I think that was more likely to be under manufacturing than massive popularity.

I'm pretty sure a reference to such rumour was earlier in this thread. Something on the lines of it sells enough. Though I do wonder how much is bought for use in Titanicus or 1st Edition AI

More like buying it for epic and desk decor. AI even back the day was the least popular Specialist Games.

If you were telling people a few years ago they were bringing back AI before BFG or Mordheim, they'd probably ask you what is AI.

But I already got the hunch since launch that they just sucker up making AI for a few years until they can reboot epic.

Hopefully they made a Horus Heresy starter.

Chopstick wrote:
More like buying it for epic and desk decor. AI even back the day was the least popular Specialist Games.

Mainly because it was a FW only specialist game and poorly advertised. I'm a fan of the original AI and spent several hundred dollars on those tiny resin planes, but I only happened upon it accidentally while looking at the FW site for something unrelated.

The GW version of AI I think failed partly because of poor timing with covid and partly because of lacklustre rules in addition to it's regular challenges like initially releasing with only 2 factions and getting people interested in a new system.

I don't see how this is indicative of the 40k version being done, it comes across as just an easy release to tie it in in to the big Horus Heresy release they've done. It's the best time to do it.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


Though I guess if you don't like the hexes I'd probably just recommend you play the old version of the game if you can find a copy of the books either 2nd hand or online somewhere But I think there's a few aircraft that didn't exist in the original (Necrons weren't around).

There were 2 books, the original rulebook (has a Thunderbolt on the cover) then an expansion (has a Tau Barracuda on the cover) that added some additional aircraft and scenarios.

After I made that comment about using the old templates, I remembered that the old manoeuvre templates didn't just tell you how far you turned, but they also had changes in speed and altitude depending on the manoeuvre (a very tight turn might slow you down, a split S or Immelman would either decrease or increase your altitude, some manoeuvres let you rapidly change altitude/speed others made it harder to do so). The new version of the game changed things by separating manoeuvres from changes in speed and altitude, in the old version they were linked.

Cheers, I'll have a snout around for those books.

Since the release of Aeronautica I've been using Horizon Wars instead. You have to design your own units but otherwise it works very well with the dials on the AI bases. There's also the added benefit of throwing in Titanicus knights on the ground( as mechs ) for games that can only be described as "Aeronautica VS Titanicus".

Only problem is knowing how to best represent each of the 40K universe models, and a book like the AI:HH can at the very least provide lore and aircraft profiles to see how each one compares.

I don't mind the hexes as such if they work well, but the availability of such gaming maps are too few and far between. I've noticed that the webstore is no longer showing any starter sets nor the card-stock board packs, which leaves 3rd party or DIY options....

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I don't see how this is indicative of the 40k version being done, it comes across as just an easy release to tie it in in to the big Horus Heresy release they've done. It's the best time to do it.

They stopped making all 3 2p boxes, rules are in pdf campain books only, and the companion book is not allowed to be sold by 3rd party shops unlike the entire GW AI model range. Hex maps are now completely impossible to get hold of meaning the game cant be played for new players.

That just screams abandon ship to the 40k setting.

And seeing how mutch more easier it is to make products for 30k setting then 40k setting when at max it is going to be 2 factions(sm and IG), for a game that has struggled all the time, now is the best time to drop 40k and go full time on 30k.

However it is all in the air until we see the full rules of the HH book. IF it comes with inch movment, the 40k setting would be saved tough as we would no longer need a hex map, only the planes that they still so far sell.

The AI Companion book is still available, which is a good sign. Hopefully they'll keep that and the xenos model range, thus far, around.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I don't see how this is indicative of the 40k version being done, it comes across as just an easy release to tie it in in to the big Horus Heresy release they've done. It's the best time to do it.

They stopped making all 3 2p boxes, rules are in pdf campain books only, and the companion book is not allowed to be sold by 3rd party shops unlike the entire GW AI model range. Hex maps are now completely impossible to get hold of meaning the game cant be played for new players.

That just screams abandon ship to the 40k setting.

And seeing how mutch more easier it is to make products for 30k setting then 40k setting when at max it is going to be 2 factions(sm and IG), for a game that has struggled all the time, now is the best time to drop 40k and go full time on 30k.

However it is all in the air until we see the full rules of the HH book. IF it comes with inch movment, the 40k setting would be saved tough as we would no longer need a hex map, only the planes that they still so far sell.

I'm not sure where they were made but couldn't both the campaign boxes and Hex maps be unavailable for the same reason if they were made elsewhere and they're unable to get more?

It's currently the only side game without any starter, AT still has a starter.

Only reason they didn't sell it anymore because they retire it, The starter only cardboard component is the token. Stuff like Blackstone fortress still on sale and the "elsewhere" production required for those is easily 5,6 times than the AI starter.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I don't see how this is indicative of the 40k version being done, it comes across as just an easy release to tie it in in to the big Horus Heresy release they've done. It's the best time to do it.

They stopped making all 3 2p boxes, rules are in pdf campain books only, and the companion book is not allowed to be sold by 3rd party shops unlike the entire GW AI model range. Hex maps are now completely impossible to get hold of meaning the game cant be played for new players.

That just screams abandon ship to the 40k setting.

And seeing how mutch more easier it is to make products for 30k setting then 40k setting when at max it is going to be 2 factions(sm and IG), for a game that has struggled all the time, now is the best time to drop 40k and go full time on 30k.

However it is all in the air until we see the full rules of the HH book. IF it comes with inch movment, the 40k setting would be saved tough as we would no longer need a hex map, only the planes that they still so far sell.

I'm not sure where they were made but couldn't both the campaign boxes and Hex maps be unavailable for the same reason if they were made elsewhere and they're unable to get more?

The hex map in the 2p boxes is just some printed paper, they could have had that made anywhere and sold alongside a seperate a4 booklet containg core rules. BUT they did not.

Apart from the planes, everything made for AI has been time limited whitout ever beeing branded as time limited. Plane cards, ground assets, faction dices and moust importantly cardboard hex maps that are bigger then the paper map in the 2p box, all limited number production run.
Heck they never even sold spare bases, what if you break one??

There are large issues with the game but they could be overcome by playing only the content in the 2p boxes, but they are now all discontinued, a prossess not done unless the current setting is beeing removed.

It would be nice if they had the models to go with the new book, the Thunderhawk has been out of stock in Australia since they released it.

Gw has always had a strange relationship with cardstock in their games. On the one hand they seem really keen to include it wherever they can. On the other they seem really keen to never over-order or never replenish on so many lines.

So any game that relies heavily upon it tends to suffer. I do wonder if it might have been cardstock issues that caused the whole upset with Cursed City last year meanwhile Blackstone is almost an enigma that GW has kept the core game going this long; however all the expansions (and most of the models with them) are one and done releases.

I hadn't noticed the starters gone out of stock until it was mentioned just now, it seemed like they were juggling stock around as intermittently either Wrath of Angels or Wings of Vengeance was on stock.

I dunno if it's been out of stock long enough to get worried about it yet, well, any more worried than I already was. From the very beginning they weren't keeping rulebooks and hex boards in stock.

 Rolsheen wrote:
It would be nice if they had the models to go with the new book, the Thunderhawk has been out of stock in Australia since they released it.

It sold out super fast on launch, came back in stock a little while later, then went out of stock again. I ended up with 2 of them because the place I initially ordered from put it on back order then it popped up somewhere else so I grabbed it, then when it restocked the original place put their order through I ended up with 2 of them, lol.


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 Overread wrote:
Gw has always had a strange relationship with cardstock in their games. On the one hand they seem really keen to include it wherever they can. On the other they seem really keen to never over-order or never replenish on so many lines.

So any game that relies heavily upon it tends to suffer. I do wonder if it might have been cardstock issues that caused the whole upset with Cursed City last year meanwhile Blackstone is almost an enigma that GW has kept the core game going this long; however all the expansions (and most of the models with them) are one and done releases.

I kind of wish GW never made AI a hex based game, it slightly speeds up the game not having to measure things, but if they didn't plan to keep the damned hex boards in stock it just becomes a hurdle for people who might consider starting. The ones in the starter sets were way too small.

That and I think hexes limit the movement too much, but that's a separate gripe.

Speculation. The hexes are the best solution when movement templates could invite headaches from X-Wing?

Both allow for accurate manoeuvres, without stepping on proprietary toes?

Hex's work, its just that GW never kept them in stock long enough. Also I feel like the way the game was built they kept it small so there was less reason for people to buy bigger flights of aircraft because the boards were by default limited and even more so when they go out of stock so fast.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Speculation. The hexes are the best solution when movement templates could invite headaches from X-Wing?

Both allow for accurate manoeuvres, without stepping on proprietary toes?

I have not played X-wing, but AI used templates before X-wing was ever a thing, I think the original AI came out 5 years prior to X-wing.

Granted the templates were just cards with arrows, but individual users had home made versions that keyed into the hex bases, I imagine they were again doing that before X-wing was a thing.

There's also other aerial combat games that use templates.


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 Overread wrote:
Hex's work, its just that GW never kept them in stock long enough. Also I feel like the way the game was built they kept it small so there was less reason for people to buy bigger flights of aircraft because the boards were by default limited and even more so when they go out of stock so fast.

Not being in stock was the biggest issue, but it also brought about a 2nd issue that the board was too limiting. You want to turn? Your options are 60, 120, and 180. I think that's too limiting for an aerial combat game, but I'm also an aircraft nerd so maybe that's not the general consensus.

And I'd say not the size isn't just an issue for the ability to play larger games, it's a problem with how the game plays even at small scales. The mat that comes in the starter set is barely big enough even if you only use the models that come in the starter set, and it helps contribute to the game just becoming a massive clusterfeck in the middle of the board where agility and speed is nearly meaningless next to wounds and firepower. The original AI was typically played on a 4x4 or 6x4 or 8x4, and it gave the aircraft room to manoeuvre, and fast aircraft had the space to make their speed meaningful.

But yes, the bigger problem is them not keeping boards in stock, hardly worth arguing about the benefits of a hex board when they don't even sell them

Yeah, lots of air combat (and space combat) games have used manoeuvre gauges before, and since, Xwing including 1st Ed AI. The only reasons I can think of for not doing them is the expense of plastic ones and the inaccuracy of card ones. The hex based system at least has the virtue of being scale agnostic - any size hex you care to use will work the same and tiny errors don’t add up over turns because there’s only six possible facings rather than an unlimited set.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Yeah, lots of air combat (and space combat) games have used manoeuvre gauges before, and since, Xwing including 1st Ed AI. The only reasons I can think of for not doing them is the expense of plastic ones and the inaccuracy of card ones. The hex based system at least has the virtue of being scale agnostic - any size hex you care to use will work the same and tiny errors don’t add up over turns because there’s only six possible facings rather than an unlimited set.

The game kind of is scale agnostic anyway, you can put any size models on the bases and it doesn't really matter. Even though the base sizes changed from the 1st edition of AI, the ranges all stayed much the same. 1st ed AI you'd move the number of inches equal to 2x your speed setting, new AI has 2" hexes so it's the same and most aircraft have the same or within +/-1 of the min/max speed they used to have, weapon ranges have only changed slightly - basically subtract 2" of everything and you have the old weapon ranges.

So basically AI 2nd edition increased the model and base sizes by 50%, moved to a hex board that was 25% smaller than the minimum most people used to play on, but kept much the same ranges and speeds as it used to have, which is part of what contributes to it feeling more claustrophobic now.

You could use the old models on the new hex boards, or the new models with the old ranges, and it wouldn't do much to change how the game feels IMO.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Yeah, lots of air combat (and space combat) games have used manoeuvre gauges before, and since, Xwing including 1st Ed AI. The only reasons I can think of for not doing them is the expense of plastic ones and the inaccuracy of card ones.

Yet they have no quarrels of making hardplastic range tools and cardboard markers for killzone, templates + range tools for AT, range tools in Aos and 40k 2p boxes, heck they even did a brass range tool for the first edition of AoS.

The overall impression when you compare it to the other boxed games is, that you get the feeling the managment wanted a piece of the cake that is called x-wing, but did not want to commit any resources whatsoever, outside of airplane model production. There is just no logic to how GW manages this game at all, and the person or team that was responsible for creating the rules has moust likely never made or played an aerial craft game before.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Yeah, lots of air combat (and space combat) games have used manoeuvre gauges before, and since, Xwing including 1st Ed AI. The only reasons I can think of for not doing them is the expense of plastic ones and the inaccuracy of card ones.

Yet they have no quarrels of making hardplastic range tools and cardboard markers for killzone, templates + range tools for AT, range tools in Aos and 40k 2p boxes, heck they even did a brass range tool for the first edition of AoS.

The overall impression when you compare it to the other boxed games is, that you get the feeling the managment wanted a piece of the cake that is called x-wing, but did not want to commit any resources whatsoever, outside of airplane model production. There is just no logic to how GW manages this game at all, and the person or team that was responsible for creating the rules has moust likely never made or played an aerial craft game before.

I think if GW approached it properly, AI could have taken a chunk of the x-wing cake, but they didn't put the effort into making the game rules solid. I think most of the changes from AI v1 (which was hardly perfect) to AI v2 made the game play worse, or at best some of them might be one-step-forward-one-step-back. Some things don't even feel like they've been playtested.