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Yeah the idea that primaris are immune to the gene flaw of DA and SW is outdated. Corbulo thought it could find a solution to the blood rage in primaris DA and it seems primaris showed sign of black rage.

Shock assault is very interesting. Though there are few, there are a couple of very potent melee units across both loyal and chaos, they have just become even more deadly.

A big death company unit can all of a sudden give ork boys a run for their money in terms of number of attacks.

 Galef wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
If SW, BA and DA can get all the contents of the vanilla codex, then I really do not see any point for them having their own codices instead of just being supplements.

Signature units, characters, lore--and all three have some unique vehicles that the main codex wouldn't.

Yes. And those can be in a supplement book.

Yep. And if the supplements are around 50-100 pages like it looks, that's more than enough for each Chapter's "Signature units, characters, lore--and unique vehicles".
I really just don't understand people's distain/disbelief that BAs/DAs/SWs can't easily fit into one of these supplements. It's not only possible, but hopefully likely at this point.
Each of those books is 144 pages. If you took out literally all lore/unit entries that are covered/shared in the Marine book, I'd be shocked if the remaining page count exceeded 100 pages, which would make them the idea size for supplements.

The ONLY complaint I can see being valid is the fact that all Chapters need 2 books now. But that's true of a ton of different armies right now.

-

All first founding chapters.

I can see Bangles and Dangles being supplements, but as somebody else said the Space Wolves are too different. It would ruin them a bit if they suddenly had tactical squads.

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
I can see Bangles and Dangles being supplements, but as somebody else said the Space Wolves are too different. It would ruin them a bit if they suddenly had tactical squads.

Well, GW literally said that they can take all units in the new vanilla codex, so unless that was inaccurate (which is certainly possible) then they will have tacticals.

 Apple Peel wrote:

Spoiler:

 Galef wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
If SW, BA and DA can get all the contents of the vanilla codex, then I really do not see any point for them having their own codices instead of just being supplements.

Signature units, characters, lore--and all three have some unique vehicles that the main codex wouldn't.

Yes. And those can be in a supplement book.

Yep. And if the supplements are around 50-100 pages like it looks, that's more than enough for each Chapter's "Signature units, characters, lore--and unique vehicles".
I really just don't understand people's distain/disbelief that BAs/DAs/SWs can't easily fit into one of these supplements. It's not only possible, but hopefully likely at this point.
Each of those books is 144 pages. If you took out literally all lore/unit entries that are covered/shared in the Marine book, I'd be shocked if the remaining page count exceeded 100 pages, which would make them the idea size for supplements.

The ONLY complaint I can see being valid is the fact that all Chapters need 2 books now. But that's true of a ton of different armies right now.

-

All first founding chapters.

We'll see. I mean, I agree the supplements will most likely be for the First Founding (with Crimson Fists and Templars very likely rolled into the Imperial fist supplement) but as it's likely the Chapter customization rules suggested are not going to be for Matched Play, saying "all Chapters" in reference to "all first founding Chapters" is basically the same thing at that point.
I guess you could get by with just the Marine Codex and Blood Ravens, but that still requires 2 books (Codex + White Dwarf)

Let's also keep in mind that this path is only available to GW for Marines because there are enough specific Chapter Marine players. I doubt we'll see Codex: Harlequins with Masque supplements, for example

 Crimson wrote:

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
I can see Bangles and Dangles being supplements, but as somebody else said the Space Wolves are too different. It would ruin them a bit if they suddenly had tactical squads.

Well, GW literally said that they can take all units in the new vanilla codex, so unless that was inaccurate (which is certainly possible) then they will have tacticals.

Using the Indexes as precedence, you can EASILY just include a chart in the SW supplement that says: The following units change their names and keywords to ______ and BAM! Tacticals = Grey Hunters, Librarians = Priests and so on.
They did it in the Marines Index on like, 1 page. Imagine what they could do in a whole 50-100 page supplement.
In most cases, the wargear options aren't THAT different. Blood claws, Thunder Wolves, etc would get their own datasheets easy enough

-

Going to have to grab one of the walkers and a box of snipers for sure.
Making a home brew primaris chapter, painted green with woodland camo pouches and holsters, called The Punishers, needless to say it’s not hard to guess what the chapter symbol will be.
Won’t be to most people’s tastes but hell im gonna have some fun making these realistic marines .

The Vanguard booklet has the same setup, also including DA and BA.

Dudeface wrote:

Spoiler:

 Dysartes wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
I think it's kinda insulting for other Xeno factions. I'm happy that Marines get an updated codex after 2 years (this sets a precedent for other codices updates I think) but the mere release of even new Marine models after only FIVE MONTHS from the last marine release whilst neglecting all Xenos factions that have received NOTHING in the last few years apart from their Codex is braindead at best.

What were the Genestealer Cults, the various Ork Buggies and the plastic Spiritseer then?

Presumably they, along with the Necron dude, would fall outside of the description of "all Xenos factions that have received NOTHING in the last few years apart from their Codex".

If we take that time period as 8th edition, I think that would mean Dark Eldar, Tau, Harlequins and Tyranids, off the top of my head, with two factions who have had exactly one character model (Necrons and Craftworlds).

Orks were, what, six or seven kits? GSC certainly got a decent release.

I repeat- IOW "Here you go, be happy with the scraps you've got. Be grateful we gave you anything."

What is it with people taking everything literally? Xenos, by comparison to SMs have gotten feth all this edition. Not literally, as they did get something but it is crumbs compared to the massive proverbial cake SMs got and are still getting.

Again, 2 waves of primaris releases. 1 wave of chaos marines if you want to be generous and include them, despite it being a refresh of 15+ year old core kits.

Otherwise we have:
Death guard (too diverse to be 'just marines')
Stealer cults
Custodes
Knights
Chaos knights
Orks
Daemons x2

Marines have a large volume of historic kits and needed a large sleuth to replace them, not that others don't. But you're just wrong I'm afraid.

Nope. Let's look what was in those releases shall we? Rather than by single blob of release as you'll see those SM kits outnumber the rest of the other Xenos kits combined. GSC I can give you, as that was a big release but everything else has either been nothing, one or two models or barely a blip of thing no player of the army asked for (Orks). Imperium as a whole is getting everything whilst everything else is languishing behind. Where are my auxiliaries for Tau? They have literally loads of client races working for them but we only have two on the tabletop. Where are new Aspect Warriors? Even new temples FFS. If GW can pull SM stuff out of their collective backsides then they should have no problem with other races.

What auxiliaries would you add to tau that are unique and the army needs? Aspect warriors I agree need a rehash. But you're moving the goal post from marines to imperium to fit your argument.

Marines until recently got (in their main wave):
Captain
Librarian
Chaplain
Apothecary
Redemptor
Repulsor
Inceptors
Intercessors
Hellblasters
Repulsor
Aggressors

Which admittedly is a fairly decent amount for what I'd essentially a brand new army. But it's still comparable to the stealer cults release, death guard release, chaos marine release and orks wasn't far behind (whether people asked for what they made is irrelevant).

Don't forget various Primaris Lieutenants - 2 of which are on general release, 2 more via specific boxes, and that's before we get to the LE ones.

And I notice we're getting another one in this wave, if you check the file name on the Reiver.

You're also discounting E2B versions of those kits, and the various models in Shadowspear. Oh, and in terms of boxes, the BA/DA/SW versions of kits...

Client races for the Tau? Well, new sculpts and options - possibly an entire Merc 'dex - for the Kroot would be a starting point. Additional Vespid options, perhaps? Demiurg are a possibility, though maybe less so now we're seeing Squats back in Necro. I don't think the Niccassar work on a planet. Gue'vasa have been an option Tau players have been after for years. And as we're talking client races for Tau, this is an option to bring in a squad or two of anything they feel like, and it can be justified as a newly weaponised race...

As an aside, if people are going to compare all the releases for Xenos to just the Primaris releases - which we've seen a number of times in this thread - then the comparison is off. You either compare individual factions to Primaris - in which case only the GSC measure up at all, for Xenos factions - or you compare Xenos releases to Chaos releases to Imperial releases.

And if you do that, one leg of the tripod is substantially shorter than the other two.

I'll not pursue this further beyond this statement, but you're happy to count duplicate releases of the same models (easy build > full kit, shadowspear marines > this release), you include one off lieutenant models for subfactions but decide the cryptek and spirit seer don't count.

For tau you listed some races, but what I asked was what roles and units do you want. Just insert x race or "whatever I want from other books" isn't a good answer.

Yes imperium gets more releases. But the entire conversation spouted from stating marines get more than anyone else, when they only have due to being the only faction with 2 full waves of support so far. I fully expect chaos marines will equal them with their next wave.

Xenos do need some more love, everyone knows that, but whinging about how unfair it is as a ratio of releases doesn't help anyone. It's well known the narrative for 8th was make chaos great and relevant again, which can only happen in a struggle against humanity as the protagonists for the bulk of the setting.

On topic - I'm quite excited for the scout walker, it's a bit clunky looking but I like the idea that none-corpses get to be inside of an armoured frame.

Dude, if you check my first response in here (it's in the quote pyramid within the spoiler tags), you'll note I did count the Cryptek and Spiritseer as 8th edition releases - just not substantial 8th edition releases.

I'm not a Tau player - heck, I don't even like them as a faction - so I'm not going to speculate on what they need from a gameplay perspective. I can, however, ruminate on known options from the background.

To date in 8th edition, Space Marines - well, Primaris Marines - have had the most releases. Aside from gripe about it on the internet, there isn't a great deal players of Xenos factions which haven't had releases can do about it.

The Reiver dude and the variant Eliminators look OK - if too tacticool - and Khan looks OK (aside from not being on a freaking bike), but the rest of the release is a miss. Especially the walker and the shoebox.

Dear Emperor and Nurgle, could 'this release is not a release for my army, waah!' complaints be a banned topic? It is utterly pointless and tiresome.

 Crimson wrote:
Dear Emperor and Nurgle, could 'this release is not a release for my army, waah!' complaints be a banned topic? It is utterly pointless and tiresome.

You're on a discussion forum - shocking, people are going to discuss things.

If you just want to lavish praise on GW without distractions, may I recommend their Facebook page?

 Dysartes wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Dear Emperor and Nurgle, could 'this release is not a release for my army, waah!' complaints be a banned topic? It is utterly pointless and tiresome.

You're on a discussion forum - shocking, people are going to discuss things.

If you just want to lavish praise on GW without distractions, may I recommend their Facebook page?

I just think it is pretty rude to come to a thread about a space marine release to complain that it is a space marine release. GW release schedule and priorities should be discussed in a separate thread.

Not live quite yet, but this looks interesting (unless it is an error) - https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/04/pre-order-preview-rise-of-the-adeptus-astartes

EDIT - That would be because their web team are useless, and put the wrong link there - https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/04/pre-order-preview-the-adeptus-astartes/

Collectors edition a for the Supplements is.... Well.

So if I'm reading it right, if you just want the FFC, you just buy that supplement right? No need to faff about with the main codex?

Well that was quick
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/04/pre-order-preview-the-adeptus-astartes/

 Carnikang wrote:
Collectors edition a for the Supplements is.... Well.

So if I'm reading it right, if you just want the FFC, you just buy that supplement right? No need to faff about with the main codex?

Until I get the book in hand, I can't say for certain, but it looks to me like you need the main 'dex and the supplement to play White Scars, say.

Items up for pre-order next week:

Codex: Space Marines (plus special edition)
Codex Supplement: Ultramarines (plus special edition)
Codex Supplement: White Scars (plus special edition)
Ultramarines Dice
Ultramarines Datacards
White Scars Dice
White Scars Datacards

Primaris Tigurius
Primaris Kor'sarro Khan
Wake the Dead Primaries Lieutenant
White Scars Primaris Upgrade Sprue
White Scars Primaris Transfers

 Carnikang wrote:
Collectors edition a for the Supplements is.... Well.

So if I'm reading it right, if you just want the FFC, you just buy that supplement right? No need to faff about with the main codex?

The supplements are just that: supplements.

The enormous background sections of each supplement will bring a new level of depth, with detailed breakdowns of Chapter organisation and iconography, as well as their full history and a bestiary of their unique Characters and units. The codex supplements will also include all of their associated Chapter’s named Characters and other units – such as Chief Librarian Tigurius, Kor’sarro Khan and a Khan on Bike – along with bespoke relics, psychic powers, Warlord Traits and many other abilities that help to define their character.

So codex, cards, supplements, their cards, WS specific sprue, and three characters. And more horrible and confusing specialty dice with multiple special faces.

Hmm. Less than I expected, but faster than I expected.
Presumably the actual models the following weekend.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:
Collectors edition a for the Supplements is.... Well.

So if I'm reading it right, if you just want the FFC, you just buy that supplement right? No need to faff about with the main codex?

The supplements are just that: supplements.

The enormous background sections of each supplement will bring a new level of depth, with detailed breakdowns of Chapter organisation and iconography, as well as their full history and a bestiary of their unique Characters and units. The codex supplements will also include all of their associated Chapter’s named Characters and other units – such as Chief Librarian Tigurius, Kor’sarro Khan and a Khan on Bike – along with bespoke relics, psychic powers, Warlord Traits and many other abilities that help to define their character.

I get that the word Supplement means it's extra stuff for a baseline product, but are they really going to not include the base SM rules in the books to force you to buy the main codex to be able to play with all the new toys?

I wouldn't put it past them, and taking advantage of space marine players is what they do best....

27 Chapter Tactics. That is a lot.

" ** Yes, that includes Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels! Have you ever wanted to carry Bjorn the Fell-Handed or Murderfang to battle using a Stormraven Gunship? Well, now you can!"

So that clears some of the confusion. My guess is that the current BA, DA, and SW Codices will function as supplements for the time being while the other first founding chapters will be in the 6 announced supplements.

In the future I would expect those three chapters to use this supplement system.

 Carnikang wrote:

I get that the word Supplement means it's extra stuff for a baseline product, but are they really going to not include the base SM rules in the books to force you to buy the main codex to be able to play with all the new toys?

Yes. That is literally what 'supplement' means.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:
Collectors edition a for the Supplements is.... Well.

So if I'm reading it right, if you just want the FFC, you just buy that supplement right? No need to faff about with the main codex?

Until I get the book in hand, I can't say for certain, but it looks to me like you need the main 'dex and the supplement to play White Scars, say.

Items up for pre-order next week:

Codex: Space Marines (plus special edition)
Codex Supplement: Ultramarines (plus special edition)
Codex Supplement: White Scars (plus special edition)
Ultramarines Dice
Ultramarines Datacards
White Scars Dice
White Scars Datacards

Primaris Tigurius
Primaris Kor'sarro Khan
Wake the Dead Primaries Lieutenant
White Scars Primaris Upgrade Sprue
White Scars Primaris Transfers

It actually looks like you can play any Chapter, including UMs or White Scars, with just the main Codex. It appears that you can just swap keywords like now.
HOWEVER, if you want all the names Characters, strats, traits and relics that are Chapter specific, you need the supplements.

I also hope they throw in unique Troops again, I'd like to see White Scars with BIKE troops again

-

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Shock assault is very interesting. Though there are few, there are a couple of very potent melee units across both loyal and chaos, they have just become even more deadly.

A big death company unit can all of a sudden give ork boys a run for their money in terms of number of attacks.

Even a basic assault squad now has the potential to trade even with other melee equipped units. A full squad of 10 assault marines with jump packs gets you 22 ork slugga boyz. Since the AM will have the movement to get in without risk of getting shot with sluggers, they can down (on average) 1.85 boyz with their pistols (10*2/3*1/2*5/6), and then charge. They get overwatched against 20 sluggas (20*1/6*1/2* for .65 wounds on the marines. (we're rounding up for the sake of simplicity). Since the boy mob still has 20 models in it the ork player might be tempted to use counter attack to save the squad, but that's 2 CP being used to do that and orks lists are very CP hungry. Going first, the AM kill 7.78 orks (28*2/3*1/3*5/6), then the orks attacks for 4.26 dead marines. In total, that's 9.63 (10) dead boyz for 70 points vs 4.91 (5) dead marines for 80 points. This is still a trade down, but it's much better that they would have done previously against a unit that's generally considered a much heavier melee unit. And if there isn't a larger mob around to benefit from Mob Rule, another 1.7 gets lost to fleeing and now that's 11.33 (11) lost for 77 vs 80 trade off. Against something much lighter (shoota boyz, tau strike teams, guardsmen) or more expensive with worse melee (Necron warriors, sisters of battle, other space marines) and you're looking much better. And this is one of the worse choices in the codex.

Assuming no other buffs, Marine assault units are much more useful and Maine ranged units can threaten lighter units that get too close. If they do make Chapter Tactics better, or if there is other price drops, there could be a lot of hidden gems in this new codex.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/04/pre-order-preview-the-adeptus-astartes/

In addition to the freedom for the First Founding Chapters and their successors to make use of all 76 datasheets included in the codex

So Space Wolves can use Tactical Marines now?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/04/pre-order-preview-the-adeptus-astartes/

In addition to the freedom for the First Founding Chapters and their successors to make use of all 76 datasheets included in the codex

So Space Wolves can use Tactical Marines now?

It's a weird one - I expect we'll see a preview article on the topic in the run up to the release.

So there's gonna be a Khan on Bike entry?

...I'm less angry than I was before but I still am nevertheless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sotahullu wrote:
27 Chapter Tactics. That is a lot.

Where did you read that? I'm blind as a bat.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So there's gonna be a Khan on Bike entry?

...I'm less angry than I was before but I still am nevertheless.

I'm pretty sure it will be a regular Khan (i.e. Captain), not Kor'sarro.

Am wondering how easy it will be to make the walker pose like it’s running forward holding the Bolter like the AMP suits from Avatar. Yes I am that sad.

Looks like the Ultramarines cards are on top of the standard Space Marine cards, rather than in addition, so two card packs to buy!