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Two things:
1) I love that helmet. It’s very Robocop.
2) Why on Terra can they not make these guns that look exactly like old boltguns with scopes the same as boltguns? I’m surprised Primaris don’t have their own pattern of power sword.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


So combined with the Chapter Tactic from yesterday giving +3" Range, does anyone want 11" Ap -1 Flamers?

I rather have Heavy Flamer. Or better yet, Inferno Cannon for extra crispiness, just add salt

Do the BA/SW/DA get these doctrines as well?

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Do the BA/SW/DA get these doctrines as well?

No

Ragnar69 wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Do the BA/SW/DA get these doctrines as well?

No

Combat Doctrines are an Angels of Death ability, and all Marines are getting Angels of Death.

 djones520 wrote:

Ragnar69 wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Do the BA/SW/DA get these doctrines as well?

No

Combat Doctrines are an Angels of Death ability, and all Marines are getting Angels of Death.

Right now it specifically calls out that the Doctrines are usable by Chapters from (or Created From) the Codex: Space Marines.

 djones520 wrote:

Ragnar69 wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Do the BA/SW/DA get these doctrines as well?

No

Combat Doctrines are an Angels of Death ability, and all Marines are getting Angels of Death.

Ah yes of course, brilliant.

Quite the deluge of abilities in this codex.
No know fear, bolter discipline, shock assault, 2 chapter traits (or two part traits) and doctrines.

That's... quite a lot. Curious if point costs will shift in response as marines are effectively fighting better at every range band, without touching their profile.

Imperial Fists strike me as this Codex's poster boys.
Lots of shots, bonus shots and even terminators are maxed out at a 4+ save vs bolt rifles.

Combat doctrines are so stupid: even more effectiveness against power armor and and nothing against light troops. Well.
Do vehicles benefits from combat doctrines at least ?

Sterling191 wrote:

bullyboy wrote:
Dude, DW are specialists with their own abililties. They are still solid and one of the better marine armies. SS/SB with SIA still solid.

Did you ever consider for a moment that maybe I dont want to play nothing but shields and stormbolter gak? Or maybe I want to have Primaris on the table? This isnt even about competitive versus casual options as i cannot even play the units

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Not anymore. They got almost invalidated thanks to +3" range with 6+++ FNP guys that use Tactical Doctrine from turn 2 onwards...

The combinations one can put together with the new options make Deathwatch look like stodgy old caricatures of Ultramarines, bitching about how nobody follows the codex anymore.

Frag cannons still rock, we have Ultramarine ability with no -1 to hit, etc. Deathwatch are still solid. People are loving this new marine stuff, and rightly so, but points are still a thing.
Deathwatch cannot complain, we are fine.

 godardc wrote:
Combat doctrines are so stupid: even more effectiveness against power armor and and nothing against light troops. Well.
Do vehicles benefits from combat doctrines at least ?

Bolt rifles went from guardsmen saving on six to no save.

I was worried at first that they wouldn't go far enough with marine abilities. Now I'm worried that they've gone too far.

No real idea until we see the actual codex with prices and all of that but a lot of abilities are being added and I'm worried that even with all of the GW "testing" there are going to be some unintended OP combos that are going to give all the marine haters justification for their salt.

I don't like that the doctrines are tied to rounds (I'd love to be able to start with assault doctrine) but that could be handled by a strat or some other ability we don't know about. Outside of that small gripe I think it is a very fluffy and cool ability.

I really can't wait for the codex though. Although as a main SW, DA + DW player I'm feeling mad jealous right now.

Now do the Doctrines apply to the whole army or the detachment?

If it's just detachment, Shrike leading Vanguard or a Templar HQ going with Vanguard all get AP-1 Chainswords OR Pistols when they dual wield. That's fething WILD to me and makes me actually want to order the stuff I need for my Jump Pack dudes instead of my proxies.

 bullyboy wrote:


Frag cannons still rock, we have Ultramarine ability with no -1 to hit, etc. Deathwatch are still solid. People are loving this new marine stuff, and rightly so, but points are still a thing.
Deathwatch cannot complain, we are fine.

You mean the points of everything Deathwatch being more expensive? Those points?

Or the fact that we're "fine" purely because of one specific wargear combination?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Now do the Doctrines apply to the whole army or the detachment?

If it's just detachment, Shrike leading Vanguard or a Templar HQ going with Vanguard all get AP-1 Chainswords OR Pistols when they dual wield. That's fething WILD to me and makes me actually want to order the stuff I need for my Jump Pack dudes instead of my proxies.

I have been told by people in the know that the entire army has to be pure single faction to get the combat doctrines.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

bullyboy wrote:
Dude, DW are specialists with their own abililties. They are still solid and one of the better marine armies. SS/SB with SIA still solid.

Did you ever consider for a moment that maybe I dont want to play nothing but shields and stormbolter gak? Or maybe I want to have Primaris on the table?

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Not anymore. They got almost invalidated thanks to +3" range with 6+++ FNP guys that use Tactical Doctrine from turn 2 onwards...

The combinations one can put together with the new options make Deathwatch look like stodgy old caricatures of Ultramarines, bitching about how nobody follows the codex anymore.

Not only DW, every single non-codex Marine chapter got rekt

Especially Grey Knights


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

bullyboy wrote:
Dude, DW are specialists with their own abililties. They are still solid and one of the better marine armies. SS/SB with SIA still solid.

Did you ever consider for a moment that maybe I dont want to play nothing but shields and stormbolter gak? Or maybe I want to have Primaris on the table? This isnt even about competitive versus casual options as i cannot even play the units

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Not anymore. They got almost invalidated thanks to +3" range with 6+++ FNP guys that use Tactical Doctrine from turn 2 onwards...

The combinations one can put together with the new options make Deathwatch look like stodgy old caricatures of Ultramarines, bitching about how nobody follows the codex anymore.

Frag cannons still rock, we have Ultramarine ability with no -1 to hit, etc. Deathwatch are still solid. People are loving this new marine stuff, and rightly so, but points are still a thing.
Deathwatch cannot complain, we are fine.

Frag Cannons are 25 frickin points. People mostly stopped using them for a reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 djones520 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Now do the Doctrines apply to the whole army or the detachment?

If it's just detachment, Shrike leading Vanguard or a Templar HQ going with Vanguard all get AP-1 Chainswords OR Pistols when they dual wield. That's fething WILD to me and makes me actually want to order the stuff I need for my Jump Pack dudes instead of my proxies.

I have been told by people in the know that the entire army has to be pure single faction to get the combat doctrines.

That's stupid but whatever.

 djones520 wrote:


I have been told by people in the know that the entire army has to be pure single faction to get the combat doctrines.

Yeah, but within that army can you have a line battalion in one doctrine providing a base of fire, while a separate vanguard detachment is charging in wrecking face in the melee doctrine is I believe the question.?

Doctrines will make a big difference, as will all the new extra rules that Marines are getting. I think that GW may have gone a bit over the top with them... I know that Marines are meant it be the best if the best if the best. Just from a game mechanics point of view, adding this many special rules can break a system die to how it interplays with other rules and what not.

The new Primaris stuff continues to be dumb, tacking Marines from Knights in space into Tom Clancy spec ops types.

I'd have rather they introduced a new race that had all these gizmos... even than I have to wonder what this going to do to the Tau? It feels like Primaris Marines aren't just standing on their feet, but actively stomping on their feet (hooves).

Also, I think it is laughable that the new Dreadnought can unholster the heavy bolter pistol while in close combat, then holster it and smash with fist, then unholster it again to fire into the same close combat... meanwhile a Dreadnought with a storm bolter built in to the fist can't fire it into the same close combat. That is as dumb as not allowing a gorehound to roar while in close combat.

 djones520 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Now do the Doctrines apply to the whole army or the detachment?

If it's just detachment, Shrike leading Vanguard or a Templar HQ going with Vanguard all get AP-1 Chainswords OR Pistols when they dual wield. That's fething WILD to me and makes me actually want to order the stuff I need for my Jump Pack dudes instead of my proxies.

I have been told by people in the know that the entire army has to be pure single faction to get the combat doctrines.

That makes me very happy.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Now do the Doctrines apply to the whole army or the detachment?

If it's just detachment, Shrike leading Vanguard or a Templar HQ going with Vanguard all get AP-1 Chainswords OR Pistols when they dual wield. That's fething WILD to me and makes me actually want to order the stuff I need for my Jump Pack dudes instead of my proxies.

I have been told by people in the know that the entire army has to be pure single faction to get the combat doctrines.

That makes me very happy.

Me too. We need more rules that give bonuses for single faction armies

-

 Galef wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Now do the Doctrines apply to the whole army or the detachment?

If it's just detachment, Shrike leading Vanguard or a Templar HQ going with Vanguard all get AP-1 Chainswords OR Pistols when they dual wield. That's fething WILD to me and makes me actually want to order the stuff I need for my Jump Pack dudes instead of my proxies.

I have been told by people in the know that the entire army has to be pure single faction to get the combat doctrines.

That makes me very happy.

Me too. We need more rules that give bonuses for single faction armies

-

I'm honestly on the opposite side of the fence. There's no reason to push that, but I do like variety so I'm not too torn up about it.

I am shedding a tear for the poor GK's though. Likely to be totally forgotten again and now severely outclassed by their 'brothers'. Especially because GW said they will not be getting any Primaris.

 stonehorse wrote:

Also, I think it is laughable that the new Dreadnought can unholster the heavy bolter pistol while in close combat, then holster it and smash with fist, then unholster it again to fire into the same close combat... meanwhile a Dreadnought with a storm bolter built in to the fist can't fire it into the same close combat. That is as dumb as not allowing a gorehound to roar while in close combat.

Yeah, that bugged me as well.

 NivlacSupreme wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
To what are you referring?

No access to doctrines, and no ability to take any of the new units.

I think those doctrines, and a combination of bunch of the other stuff are going to create a lot of unintended consequences. I feel like they've really given basic Space Marines so much with this codex that it makes hard to imagine the Non-codex marines can even come close to competing. Why play Deathwatch when there are a slew of rules that can get you pretty close to the same abilities and probably for less, while giving you a lot more options and flexibility?

Because you like the fluff?

It was meant rhetorically. I don't play competitively, but too often the "balance" of the game is thrown off when something like this comes along. I can accept point values and power levels are not perfect and still play and have fun. However if we pretend their is some theoretically perfect price and where the published point values deviate from that for whatever variety of reasons and as long as those values are within +/- X% it wont disrupt the game... extra rules without point costs and combinations of abilities really increase how often and to what degree this deviation occurs. Making the published point values more and more meaningless in relating the relative capabilities of units. If my unit is theoretically 10% over costed and my opponent brings a unit 10% undercosted... you have a 20% split and you're effectively playing 1800pt games against 2200pt opponents for a 2000pt game. Right now Deathwatch are like the 1800pt force while these new marine appear to be predisposed towards the latter.

If you think they went overboard with this book then imagine how the next ones for other factions are going to be. If you think crazy rules and supplements are gonna stop here then you're too naive, and tbh I'm kinda looking forward to it.

Audustum wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Now do the Doctrines apply to the whole army or the detachment?

If it's just detachment, Shrike leading Vanguard or a Templar HQ going with Vanguard all get AP-1 Chainswords OR Pistols when they dual wield. That's fething WILD to me and makes me actually want to order the stuff I need for my Jump Pack dudes instead of my proxies.

I have been told by people in the know that the entire army has to be pure single faction to get the combat doctrines.

That makes me very happy.

Me too. We need more rules that give bonuses for single faction armies

-

I'm honestly on the opposite side of the fence. There's no reason to push that, but I do like variety so I'm not too torn up about it.

I am shedding a tear for the poor GK's though. Likely to be totally forgotten again and now severely outclassed by their 'brothers'. Especially because GW said they will not be getting any Primaris.

I’m sure you’re right, and that GKs will still be rubbish. It seems clear that GW has decided to essentially park them and not bring out any new models for the army, because it would be too difficult to make them whole new primaris kits. Deathwatch can just use the existing conversion kits so they get some primaris stuff.

Anyway on the plus side, nobody gains more from having +1A than GKs. They’ll be pretty choppy.

 Galef wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Now do the Doctrines apply to the whole army or the detachment?

If it's just detachment, Shrike leading Vanguard or a Templar HQ going with Vanguard all get AP-1 Chainswords OR Pistols when they dual wield. That's fething WILD to me and makes me actually want to order the stuff I need for my Jump Pack dudes instead of my proxies.

I have been told by people in the know that the entire army has to be pure single faction to get the combat doctrines.

That makes me very happy.

Me too. We need more rules that give bonuses for single faction armies

-

Yeah, I wish my Orks and Necrons also got some kind of bonus to compensate for their lack of soup benefits.

This is great stuff! It's the sorts of changes i've been saying marines needed to become viable for ages now. And it looks like Space Marines will now actually want to field Space Marines are their main units! The phobos based playstyle seems fun. Incursor + Impulsor mortal wounds build anyone? And eliminators will be very nasty anti tank, so people will need to start thinking about deep strikers or other such ways to stop them.

I am a bit miffed by the Assault Vehicle rule. This is just restoring things to how all vehicles worked in previous editions. All space marines need this back, especially rhinoes. And Land Raiders need their assault ramps back.

I think for combat doctrines you ought to be able to go straight from Devastator to Assault. Not being able to get the melee buff till turn 3 isn't good for melee based armies. Maybe there will be a strat or something.

Needless to say, the non-codex adherent chapters are going to need some new stuff to bring them up to this level. And of course Chaos will too. But now that GW has shown that they are willing to fix marines, I figure those others will follow at some point. Maybe Chaos will get proper Marks back or something.

 Stus67 wrote:
If you think they went overboard with this book then imagine how the next ones for other factions are going to be. If you think crazy rules and supplements are gonna stop here than you're too naive, and tbh I'm kinda looking forward to it.

Yup.

 Stus67 wrote:
If you think they went overboard with this book then imagine how the next ones for other factions are going to be. If you think crazy rules and supplements are gonna stop here than you're too naive, and tbh I'm kinda looking forward to it.

We better get just as good rules for DIY CSM warbands...

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Stus67 wrote:
If you think they went overboard with this book then imagine how the next ones for other factions are going to be. If you think crazy rules and supplements are gonna stop here than you're too naive, and tbh I'm kinda looking forward to it.

We better get just as good rules for DIY CSM warbands...

Legion Tactics that are more than just -1 to Leadership and Reroll Morale.