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 MajorWesJanson wrote:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Can't wait for the absolutely wild over reactions to the new book. It happens every single release, I remember when GSC were released and everyone lost their minds bit I've never seen them actually used before.

I'm a little sad since I was playing around with a guilliman + aggressors list for a few weeks now, and now Aggressors, especially UM ones, are now rather bonkers.

It will be fun to see what some of the local SM players come up with though. Hopefully some changes from castle devastator + officers.

I think it is still good. Guilliman's to-hit-re-rolls got better, he's cheaper and Guilliman can now Honour the Chapter to fight twice. Don't underestimate the ol' Girlyman. Also, Ultramarine Aggressors can now pseudo-Greater-Good-Overwatch for each other (again with Guilliman re-rolls probably in there too).

The nerf to guilliman’s wound rerolls is pretty major. He’s always been used to reroll wounds of low-ish strength weapons that need 5s to wound most stuff.

Now you’re not getting anything from Guilliman that you can’t from normal HQs for about half the cost - and without needing to fit in a lord of war somehow.

So it’s a pretty major nerf, combined with major buffs elsewhere. I expect the end result will be that people run other chapters more.

Yes and no.

People ran Guilliman with Repulsors or Scout Bikes, Scout Snipers, etc.. re-rolling the low strength stuff and fishing for mortal wounds. That build is probably dead.


But people also ran Guilliman with, say, triple-Krast Crusaders or some such, no other Ultramarine even in sight. Just for the Advance & charge & Re-roll 1s buff, and for his insane cc. damage output.



The latter got a lot better with Guilliman fighting twice, and can I see Guilliman be very worth it in a Marine list that is something of a hybrid of the above two: A more aggressive Marine list that moves up, uses the Guilliman ranged re-rolls as a bonus turn 1, maybe 2, but is more geared towards getting Guilliman stuck in there, maybe with a Gallant or so, maybe with just more close combat Marines. etc..

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Yes and no.

People ran Guilliman with Repulsors or Scout Bikes, Scout Snipers, etc.. re-rolling the low strength stuff and fishing for mortal wounds. That build is probably dead.


But people also ran Guilliman with, say, triple-Krast Crusaders or some such, no other Ultramarine even in sight. Just for the Advance & charge & Re-roll 1s buff, and for his insane cc. damage output.



The latter got a lot better with Guilliman fighting twice, and can I see Guilliman be very worth it in a Marine list that is something of a hybrid of the above two: A more aggressive Marine list that moves up, uses the Guilliman ranged re-rolls as a bonus turn 1, maybe 2, but is more geared towards getting Guilliman stuck in there, maybe with a Gallant or so, maybe with just more close combat Marines. etc..

Remeber gallant means no combat doctrines.

Does anyone know if they've fixed heavy and assault plasma incinerators like they've apparently fixed auto and stalker bolt rifles?

 Duskweaver wrote:
Does anyone know if they've fixed heavy and assault plasma incinerators like they've apparently fixed auto and stalker bolt rifles?

no changes to the hellblasters according to the reviews

IMHO the assault hellblaster varient isn't that bad, you lose some strength but the assault function is handy,

Dudeface wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Yes and no.

People ran Guilliman with Repulsors or Scout Bikes, Scout Snipers, etc.. re-rolling the low strength stuff and fishing for mortal wounds. That build is probably dead.


But people also ran Guilliman with, say, triple-Krast Crusaders or some such, no other Ultramarine even in sight. Just for the Advance & charge & Re-roll 1s buff, and for his insane cc. damage output.



The latter got a lot better with Guilliman fighting twice, and can I see Guilliman be very worth it in a Marine list that is something of a hybrid of the above two: A more aggressive Marine list that moves up, uses the Guilliman ranged re-rolls as a bonus turn 1, maybe 2, but is more geared towards getting Guilliman stuck in there, maybe with a Gallant or so, maybe with just more close combat Marines. etc..

Remeber gallant means no combat doctrines.

If the end result is that Guilliman ends up pushing forward to chop things up, rather than standing in a gunline, then I'm all for it.

The elites slot feels very busy now. You've got Aggressors competing with the Invictor, and you likely still want an ancient a lot of the time. I don't like reivers but a unit held back to drop on an objective could be worth its points, as they'd be fairly hard to shift late game.

At 2k I'm actually considering a brigade. Vague shape of the army is captain, Lieutenant and chaplain, 4x10 intercessors, 2x5 incursors, Aggressors and ancient for elites, supporessors for FA and eliminators for HS. It fits into 2k, more or less. I quite like the idea of effectively a Primaris horde of roughly 80 models, most of which are obsec.

The alternative is a repulsor-based list. It looks like repulsor executioners with squads of 3 Aggressors inside will be a pretty good option. I think aggressors are nasty enough that now they'll attract a lot of hate - but there's always the option of just taking loads of them. Having 3 wounds each instead of 2 is just fantastic.

Auto rifle intercessors seem like a pretty awesome troop unit now. Each guy almost has an assault heavy bolter now, with the tactical doctrine running. I can see these guys causing havoc and I particularly like how they don't require any CP nonsense to work. They just chuck out 3 shots each at 24" and are hard to get rid of. I'm not sure if I'd always take them over normal rifles, but I think there's a strong case for going half and half now - where before you'd only ever take normal rifles. Auto rifle guys have close to the number of shots per point you get from aggressors now, in a troop choice with a lot more bodies, but of course they lack the option to fire twice and have no power fists.

Whatever happens I've got a ton of stuff I'd need to paint for the London GT, if taking this army. Probably more than I can do. Tricky.

Don't autorifles have no AP and 24" though? If not, then there's still a reason to take bolt rifles, which are 30" range and -1 AP.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Don't autorifles have no AP and 24" though? If not, then there's still a reason to take bolt rifles, which are 30" range and -1 AP.

they're assault 3 so have some definate uses.

Yeah I'm thinking about the tactical doctirine, giving them AP-1. Admittedly that also gives normal rifles -2.

But 3 shots is a lot. I'd rather have 3 shots at 24" than 1 at 30, even if it meant sometimes missing out that shot.

Normal rifles do have access to the rapid fire stratagem though. Going to 4 shots each at -2 ap is definitely enough to warrant taking at least one unit with those I think. That's proper dakka. The auto rifle thing of auto-hitting within 12" is nowhere near as good.

Sadly I'm pretty sure stalkers remain rubbish in comparison. I guess you could take a squad with them to snipe characters but that's pricey on CPs, and eliminators exist. I could well be wrong about this though. 10 guys with D2 sniper rifles would be scary, and they aren't expensive. AP-3 on turn 1 with the devastator discipline too. Actually that really isn't bad.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Don't autorifles have no AP and 24" though? If not, then there's still a reason to take bolt rifles, which are 30" range and -1 AP.

You're right on the auto's profile, and thus there's still a reason to use the basic rifle, but auto bolt rifles are now extremely viable. They're much better against GEQ, match them against MEQ, and have a similar threat range to 30" immobile bolt rifles (because they don't need to stand still, they can move 6" and still fire out to 24"). They trade -1 AP and an extra point for 1 shot the flexibility to advance and fire if needed. That's a fair trade off considering that 1 extra shot makes them either equivalent or slightly better than the rifle against almost every target.

Dudeface wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Yes and no.

People ran Guilliman with Repulsors or Scout Bikes, Scout Snipers, etc.. re-rolling the low strength stuff and fishing for mortal wounds. That build is probably dead.


But people also ran Guilliman with, say, triple-Krast Crusaders or some such, no other Ultramarine even in sight. Just for the Advance & charge & Re-roll 1s buff, and for his insane cc. damage output.



The latter got a lot better with Guilliman fighting twice, and can I see Guilliman be very worth it in a Marine list that is something of a hybrid of the above two: A more aggressive Marine list that moves up, uses the Guilliman ranged re-rolls as a bonus turn 1, maybe 2, but is more geared towards getting Guilliman stuck in there, maybe with a Gallant or so, maybe with just more close combat Marines. etc..

Remeber gallant means no combat doctrines.

I don't think that kind of list cares.

Combat Doctrines can be nice, if you build your army for it, but they certainly aren't necessary.

 Kirasu wrote:
It's pretty amazing with all these upgrades that reivers still manage to be trash. Their grenades still don't so anything due to range, their CC is on par with intercessors who are troops with better guns and their shooting is on par with scouts who are cheaper.

I wouldn't call Reivers trash as they are only a point (well two points in practical use) more expensive than Intercessors and offer deep strike. I will admit continuing to be Elites does hamper them a bit not having a Objective Secured and potentially getting the way of other Elites options thus costing CP. However, they do have a unique niche, a small one but a niche none the less, to offer a space marine army. Especially a Primaris only army like mine. . As for their melee, I think there is something to be said for not having to foot slog or buy a transport to get them on the other side of the table.

At the same time, all Reivers really having going for them is deep strike (and Phobos Librarian powers if they work the same) compared to Intercessors. The rest of the things Reivers have that Intercessors don't tends to be pretty situational. So I can't say the extra point makes much sense, but we are talking about 10 points or so here so I am less concerned about to this feasibility of Reivers vs. Intercessors now. In summary, I think they are a weaker option but not so much that with a little extra effort they can pulling their own weight to not be a burden.

I do kinda hope that Raven Guard or some other chapter can make them Troop options though.

All the fancy rules seem to have stopped them looking at some core issues, like what are Reivers for? Why does a Pred have only one more wound than a Rhino? etc.

But FWIW Reivers went down 2pts apparently. I like them (my version at least) but wish they had a tiny bit more utility (being troops would be a good start).

Quick question, soz if it’s been answered: how many points does the War Walker cost with the flamer or autocannon and whatever wargear it can have?
And how many points is the new Reiver Lt? Trying to work out if I can shove them into my list.

Reivers are still useless. Morale tricks aren't good, they don't get Assault 3 on their Carbines, and I can get Vanguard to do more.

They're a great example of a pointless model. Proxy them into Intercessors because skull helmets for your troops is cool.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Reivers are still useless. Morale tricks aren't good, they don't get Assault 3 on their Carbines, and I can get Vanguard to do more.

They're a great example of a pointless model. Proxy them into Intercessors because skull helmets for your troops is cool.

They're not terrible, but ya, the carbine version are outperformed by troops right now.

Still, it's quite possible that some chapters that have complimentary abilities will get a use out of the knife version. It wouldn't take much for BT to use them with a phobos lieutenant. Their charge rerolls plus the +1 to charge warlord trait would help them get in close. A combat knife relic, another way to boost charges, or a way to get to assault phase turn two would just be gravy. I'm sure they will get at least one thing that helps reivers.

The same goes for Raven Guard. Who knows what their character will do and a combat knife relic would be right up their ally. With every supplement getting so many stratagems, odds are one of the books will make knife reivers useful. It really wouldn't take all that much.

I'm wondering if I can use spare bits from the new kits to turn the Reiver bodies I've got into any of the cool new stuff. Depends if they come with multiple of the bolt guns or just 5 with alternate scopes - which seems more likely.

I did use the body of one to make a standing eliminator using most of the bits from a shadowspear one. That worked ok.

If I squint correctly, the Reiver liutenant seems to be even crappier than I first though. It seems that in order to gain the Reiver mask, the pistol, combat blade and smoke grenades, he has to (along with weapons) sacrifice the grav-chute! So he cannot even do the only think he could reasonably be there for: to deploy along Reivers to give them rerolls and an extra terror stack.

Were there photos of the loadouts for the characters?

I sat through a video review, but they never talked about it.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Were there photos of the loadouts for the characters?

I sat through a video review, but they never talked about it.

No photos, I tried to squint at the video. I'm pretty sure I'm correct, but it was blurry so not 100% confirmed.

Though rubbish, this isn't surprising. Presumably it's because the Reiver one doesn't come with a grav chute, having accidentally swapped back packs with the inwhatever lieutenant.

A Reiver lieutenant sort of isn't awful. Scarier than a normal lieutenant, but hard to actually argue in favour of. Not exactly bad, but certainly unclear what the actual point of him is. You mostly want a lieutenant stood around his own lines buffing stuff, don't you?

Edit, here he is. Classic tripping over, grav-chute-free pose:

I really hope they FAQ reivers bolt carbine to be assault 3. Currently I do not see benefit in taking them over Intercessors with auto bolt rifles

I really like the scaling between the bolt rifles. Either:
3 shots at 24" with AP-0/1
2 shots (rapid fire, bolter Discipline, etc) at 15/30" with AP1/2
Or 1 shot at 36" with AP2/3 with damage 2.

Makes the Auto and Stalker feel like they have a specific purpose while the standard BR is more all purpose but not as good against either the first 2's ideal targets

-

Preorders for Next Week
Invictor Warsuit, Phobos Librarian and Captain, Wake the Dead Lieutenant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Were there photos of the loadouts for the characters?

I sat through a video review, but they never talked about it.

No photos, I tried to squint at the video. I'm pretty sure I'm correct, but it was blurry so not 100% confirmed.

The reason I ask is that I'm curious as to whether or not there are upgrade options.

It'd be weird as hell for there to be two Phobos Lieutenant profiles when the standard Primaris Lieutenant had some options from the outset.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Preorders for Next Week
Invictor Warsuit, Phobos Librarian and Captain, Wake the Dead Lieutenant.

Wow. Another week of no purchases from me. The Invictor Warsuit is not doing for me. It looks like they are spreading this release out quite a bit. Unfortunately, it also means other armies besides the UM and WS have to continue waiting for their piece of the pie.

The funny thing about the wake the dead lieutenant is its armed exactly like one of the starter set lieutenants. (Sword and pistol, different pose), so having it wandering free in the world doesn't actually increase available options in any way at all.

Notable that the lieutenant from Shadowspear isn't available, as he's not on his own sprue. I actually douubt we'll see him again.

In general those previews are a disappointment. I'd been expecting rules for another chapter or two. And there are quite a lot of models not yet with a release date. I guess they're spacing them out for some reason.

Edit: Small thing, but the guy driving the Invictor has controls that look kind of useless for it. I know people hate the baby carrier but at least it's got a vaguely believable control system. I don't think you can say that of the Invictor.

Overall I don't hate the thing but I definitely don't love it. The other releases are better though.

Mandragola wrote:
Notable that the lieutenant from Shadowspear isn't available, as he's not on his own sprue. I actually douubt we'll see him again.

In general those previews are a disappointment. I'd been expecting rules for another chapter or two. And there are quite a lot of models not yet with a release date. I guess they're spacing them out for some reason.

Impulse buys form all of the pre-existing marine players - oh this week you need a codex and ultras suppliment, here you go. two weeks later... here is the xxx marines suppliment with even better rules, you want this one too?