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 Tiberius501 wrote:
Don’t worry everyone, we’re going to get our own updates soon, this actually proves it I’d say. We’re purposefully not getting certain things like stratagems or Doctrines. I’d say it’s because DA/SW/BA/etc, are going to get their own versions in their books when they come.

Just a hunch anyway, I could be wrong, but I hope I’m right haha.

This is indeed more than likely. A bit awkward in the meanwhile though. Oh well, one can always play those armies using vanilla codex rules, even though it is a somewhat unsatisfying solution.

Sterling191 wrote:

 xttz wrote:

So something that gets objectively better than it was previously with no downsides, can be described as 'fethed over'?

Got it.

Im genuinely very confused as to how you think Deathwatch, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Blood Angels are in any meaningful way improved by this update.

The mistake is in thinking this was intended to do more than just keep existing rules consistent throughout the books. Besides the occasional typographical fix, that's all these first post-codex erratas typically address.

 Crimson wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Don’t worry everyone, we’re going to get our own updates soon, this actually proves it I’d say. We’re purposefully not getting certain things like stratagems or Doctrines. I’d say it’s because DA/SW/BA/etc, are going to get their own versions in their books when they come.

Just a hunch anyway, I could be wrong, but I hope I’m right haha.

This is indeed more than likely. A bit awkward in the meanwhile though. Oh well, one can always play those armies using vanilla codex rules, even though it is a somewhat unsatisfying solution.

If I end up wanting to play power armor enough before DA gets a supplement of their own thats what I'll have to do I guess, call my stuff a successor chapter or something except I wont be able to bring any DA specific stuff like Dark Shroud etc.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Don’t worry everyone, we’re going to get our own updates soon, this actually proves it I’d say. We’re purposefully not getting certain things like stratagems or Doctrines. I’d say it’s because DA/SW/BA/etc, are going to get their own versions in their books when they come.

Just a hunch anyway, I could be wrong, but I hope I’m right haha.

Yeah, which last time meant Space Wolves played 18 months straight Index without strats, etc.. while Guilliman and Strom Ravens and Raven Guuard Aggressor Rush were still viable and actually good, only to get a sad copy&paste book that would‘ve been mediocre in June 2017, and now have to wait another 18 months to be brought in line with the summer 2019 power creep? Probably 3 weeks before 9th Edition or Space Marines 3.0 hits the stores ..

 aka_mythos wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 xttz wrote:

So something that gets objectively better than it was previously with no downsides, can be described as 'fethed over'?

Got it.

Im genuinely very confused as to how you think Deathwatch, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Blood Angels are in any meaningful way improved by this update.

The mistake is in thinking this was intended to do more than just keep existing rules consistent throughout the books. Besides the occasional typographical fix, that's all these first post-codex erratas typically address.

Except we didn't even get something as small as the 1 point drop in the cost of tactical marines.

Sterling191 wrote:

 xttz wrote:

So something that gets objectively better than it was previously with no downsides, can be described as 'fethed over'?

Got it.

Im genuinely very confused as to how you think Deathwatch, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Blood Angels are in any meaningful way improved by this update.

All the melee-focused chapters getting meaningfully improved by a flat +1A when charging or charged? Don't talk crazy talk.

Now, don't get me wrong, as someone who's only marine faction is Deathwatch I will be asking my opponents if they mind if I use the new rules for Chaplains, and some of the points changes would have been nice to have. But saying it's not an improvement is just dumb. It's obviously an improvement. Just not as big of an improvement as you wanted.

Slaul wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 xttz wrote:

So something that gets objectively better than it was previously with no downsides, can be described as 'fethed over'?

Got it.

Im genuinely very confused as to how you think Deathwatch, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Blood Angels are in any meaningful way improved by this update.

The mistake is in thinking this was intended to do more than just keep existing rules consistent throughout the books. Besides the occasional typographical fix, that's all these first post-codex erratas typically address.

Except we didn't even get something as small as the 1 point drop in the cost of tactical marines.

They don't typically like to mess with point costs. When they "updated" the Knights from FW post Codex Chaos Knights they didn't touch the points despite a significant changes to rules. It' seems to be just a policy choice to avoid changing points until Chapter Approved or a new Codex.

 aka_mythos wrote:

Slaul wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 xttz wrote:

So something that gets objectively better than it was previously with no downsides, can be described as 'fethed over'?

Got it.

Im genuinely very confused as to how you think Deathwatch, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Blood Angels are in any meaningful way improved by this update.

The mistake is in thinking this was intended to do more than just keep existing rules consistent throughout the books. Besides the occasional typographical fix, that's all these first post-codex erratas typically address.

Except we didn't even get something as small as the 1 point drop in the cost of tactical marines.

They don't typically like to mess with point costs. When they "updated" the Knights from FW post Codex Chaos Knights they didn't touch the points despite a significant changes to rules. It' seems to be just a policy choice to avoid changing points until Chapter Approved or a new Codex.

Ah, I didn't know that. Thanks for pointing that out.

Slaul wrote:

You are looking at it out of context. Yes, objectively when looked at in a vacuum the PDF download is an improvement. However, when looked at as a whole in comparison with the new Space Marine codex and all of the new bonuses that they get all non-codex compliant chapters are indeed fethed over.

Following this logic, every time a new codex comes out for any faction, non-codex compliant chapters are 'fethed over'. Therefore GW should release rules improvements for BA / DA / GK / SW every time they publish a new codex to avoid this?

Slaul wrote:

If your parents give your brother $1000 and give you $10 you are objectively better off than before but are still allowed to be upset at how unfair the situation is and how worse off you are in comparison.

That depends, did my parents also rule out the possibility of them giving me $1000 and my brother $10 in a few months time?

I'd also object to those numbers a bit. This is more than one rule change. Depending on the faction it's up to 10 new datasheets plus buffs to many other weapons & units. GK got $10, BA / DA / SW definitely got more.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Notice the Chapter Masters only reroll failed to-hit rolls in the PDF rather than hit rolls like Roboute and Calgar give. Big surprise there... GW just can't not continue their Ultra-fellatio.

This really me off. Like seriously you have been updating Chapter Master rule to include the new improved text of "re-roll hit rolls" and just copy paste the old rules. This reeks of incompetence on the part of whoever wrote the "free update." GW working as intended then. A day 1 FAQ that needs another day 1 FAQ .

xttz wrote:

Slaul wrote:

You are looking at it out of context. Yes, objectively when looked at in a vacuum the PDF download is an improvement. However, when looked at as a whole in comparison with the new Space Marine codex and all of the new bonuses that they get all non-codex compliant chapters are indeed fethed over.

Following this logic, every time a new codex comes out for any faction, non-codex compliant chapters are 'fethed over'. Therefore GW should release rules improvements for BA / DA / GK / SW every time they publish a new codex to avoid this?

Slaul wrote:

If your parents give your brother $1000 and give you $10 you are objectively better off than before but are still allowed to be upset at how unfair the situation is and how worse off you are in comparison.

That depends, did my parents also rule out the possibility of them giving me $1000 and my brother $10 in a few months time?

I'd also object to those numbers a bit. This is more than one rule change. Depending on the faction it's up to 10 new datasheets plus buffs to many other weapons & units. GK got $10, BA / DA / SW definitely got more.

Lol you pretty much hit the nail on the head there.

Not to be rude but the folks miffed because DA/BA/GK/SW/DW didn't get brand new rules and updates all at the same time as the vanilla marines strike me as really childish.

When has GW ever released all the marines rules all together? You play non-compliant chapters specifically because they're different and unique. But when vanilla gets new rules you're mad because your dudes aren't rolled in with the rest? Talking about shelving your army because another army got new rules?

Grow up.

I do find it hilarious that they specifically picked out the high-tech commando themed space marine chapter to bar from having access to the new marine datasheets, but then go "You know who these guys really mesh with thematically? The Space Wolves!"

Slaul wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 xttz wrote:

So something that gets objectively better than it was previously with no downsides, can be described as 'fethed over'?

Got it.

Im genuinely very confused as to how you think Deathwatch, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Blood Angels are in any meaningful way improved by this update.

The mistake is in thinking this was intended to do more than just keep existing rules consistent throughout the books. Besides the occasional typographical fix, that's all these first post-codex erratas typically address.

Except we didn't even get something as small as the 1 point drop in the cost of tactical marines.

But we also did not get the 40 pts Thunder Hammers

Did you really think we would get significant new stuff in a free PDF?

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

xttz wrote:

Slaul wrote:

You are looking at it out of context. Yes, objectively when looked at in a vacuum the PDF download is an improvement. However, when looked at as a whole in comparison with the new Space Marine codex and all of the new bonuses that they get all non-codex compliant chapters are indeed fethed over.

Following this logic, every time a new codex comes out for any faction, non-codex compliant chapters are 'fethed over'. Therefore GW should release rules improvements for BA / DA / GK / SW every time they publish a new codex to avoid this?

Slaul wrote:

If your parents give your brother $1000 and give you $10 you are objectively better off than before but are still allowed to be upset at how unfair the situation is and how worse off you are in comparison.

That depends, did my parents also rule out the possibility of them giving me $1000 and my brother $10 in a few months time?

I'd also object to those numbers a bit. This is more than one rule change. Depending on the faction it's up to 10 new datasheets plus buffs to many other weapons & units. GK got $10, BA / DA / SW definitely got more.

Lol you pretty much hit the nail on the head there.

Not to be rude but the folks miffed because DA/BA/GK/SW/DW didn't get brand new rules and updates all at the same time as the vanilla marines strike me as really childish.

When has GW ever released all the marines rules all together? You play non-compliant chapters specifically because they're different and unique. But when vanilla gets new rules you're mad because your dudes aren't rolled in with the rest?

Grow up.

I'm mostly annoyed because this means we'll have another agonizing six months of freaking Space Marine releases to slowly grunt and strain until all 253 flavors of subfaction get the same new units, the same new rules, the same new stratagems, and every other army gathers dust in the meantime.

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

xttz wrote:

Slaul wrote:

You are looking at it out of context. Yes, objectively when looked at in a vacuum the PDF download is an improvement. However, when looked at as a whole in comparison with the new Space Marine codex and all of the new bonuses that they get all non-codex compliant chapters are indeed fethed over.

Following this logic, every time a new codex comes out for any faction, non-codex compliant chapters are 'fethed over'. Therefore GW should release rules improvements for BA / DA / GK / SW every time they publish a new codex to avoid this?

Slaul wrote:

If your parents give your brother $1000 and give you $10 you are objectively better off than before but are still allowed to be upset at how unfair the situation is and how worse off you are in comparison.

That depends, did my parents also rule out the possibility of them giving me $1000 and my brother $10 in a few months time?

I'd also object to those numbers a bit. This is more than one rule change. Depending on the faction it's up to 10 new datasheets plus buffs to many other weapons & units. GK got $10, BA / DA / SW definitely got more.

Lol you pretty much hit the nail on the head there.

Not to be rude but the folks miffed because DA/BA/GK/SW/DW didn't get brand new rules and updates all at the same time as the vanilla marines strike me as really childish.

When has GW ever released all the marines rules all together? You play non-compliant chapters specifically because they're different and unique. But when vanilla gets new rules you're mad because your dudes aren't rolled in with the rest? Talking about shelving your army because another army got new rules?

Grow up.

I'm not mad that the DA supplement didn't come out at the same time. I'm annoyed at the hamfisted approach to updating non-codex compliant chapters. They could have very simply stated that DA/BA/SW/etc get doctrines and that their vehicles also get their chapter tactic. That plus the new PDF and boom - at least mostly playable until the new supplements.

Without those changes already poor performing armies got objectively worse in comparison to the other space marine armies that were ALREADY performing better. That's why people are upset about it.

I'm super excited about the new codex, I love power armored armies. I'm just annoyed I don't feel excited to play MY army right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ragnar69 wrote:

Slaul wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 xttz wrote:

So something that gets objectively better than it was previously with no downsides, can be described as 'fethed over'?

Got it.

Im genuinely very confused as to how you think Deathwatch, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Blood Angels are in any meaningful way improved by this update.

The mistake is in thinking this was intended to do more than just keep existing rules consistent throughout the books. Besides the occasional typographical fix, that's all these first post-codex erratas typically address.

Except we didn't even get something as small as the 1 point drop in the cost of tactical marines.

But we also did not get the 40 pts Thunder Hammers

Did you really think we would get significant new stuff in a free PDF?

No but doctrines and chapter tactics applying to vehicles would've been fair to expect.

Slaul wrote:

I'm not mad that the DA supplement didn't come out at the same time. I'm annoyed at the hamfisted approach to updating non-codex compliant chapters. They could have very simply stated that DA/BA/SW/etc get doctrines and that their vehicles also get their chapter tactic. That plus the new PDF and boom - at least mostly playable until the new supplements.

Without those changes already poor performing armies got objectively worse in comparison to the other space marine armies that were ALREADY performing better. That's why people are upset about it.

I'm super excited about the new codex, I love power armored armies. I'm just annoyed I don't feel excited to play MY army right now.

Ding ding ding.

I think it's a slap in the face that GW even pointed out that "hey we FAQ'd your Bolter Discipline + SIA because it was too good" and then decided it was still TOO good while giving the entire Space Marine codex pretty much that...

Also the lack of litanies on our Chaplains in other armies really really blows.

So if I made an entire army out of FW "Deathwatch" models they would get access to Doctrines? Neat...

the_scotsman wrote:


All the melee-focused chapters getting meaningfully improved by a flat +1A when charging or charged? Don't talk crazy talk.

Lets talk crazy talk. What BA, SW, DW or DA units are going to see serious play that werent before because of that additional +1A?

the_scotsman wrote:


Now, don't get me wrong, as someone who's only marine faction is Deathwatch I will be asking my opponents if they mind if I use the new rules for Chaplains, and some of the points changes would have been nice to have. But saying it's not an improvement is just dumb. It's obviously an improvement. Just not as big of an improvement as you wanted.

Congratulations, you can settle for mediocrity and laziness, while at the same time explicitly admitting you want to break the rules you just accepted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Calbanite wrote:

So if I made an entire army out of FW "Deathwatch" models they would get access to Doctrines? Neat...

Nope. DW codex doesnt have the doctrines. While your models on the table would have the appropriate keyword, your army wouldnt gain any benefit from it.

 xttz wrote:

Slaul wrote:


'fethed over' as in no doctrines and no improved chapter tactics.

So something that gets objectively better than it was previously with no downsides, can be described as 'fethed over'?

Got it.

Umm you realize right that power levels are relative don't you? Ergo just because they got something doesn't mean their situation really improved when codex marines took even bigger leap. No point taking ba/da when their roles are done better with codex space marines

tneva82 wrote:

 xttz wrote:

Slaul wrote:


'fethed over' as in no doctrines and no improved chapter tactics.

So something that gets objectively better than it was previously with no downsides, can be described as 'fethed over'?

Got it.

Umm you realize right that power levels are relative don't you? Ergo just because they got something doesn't mean their situation really improved when codex marines took even bigger leap. No point taking ba/da when their roles are done better with codex space marines

Yeah. I think most people forget that power levels are relative. I play Necrons. Space Marines just got better. By comparison, my Necrons are now worse. Nothing new, really. Competitively speaking, armies that are rarely updated are constantly facing tougher and tougher foes. It's like inflation. A dollar is always worth a dollar, but it buys less and less stuff each year. That dollar has effectively been "nerfed".

tneva82 wrote:

 xttz wrote:

Slaul wrote:


'fethed over' as in no doctrines and no improved chapter tactics.

So something that gets objectively better than it was previously with no downsides, can be described as 'fethed over'?

Got it.

Umm you realize right that power levels are relative don't you? Ergo just because they got something doesn't mean their situation really improved when codex marines took even bigger leap. No point taking ba/da when their roles are done better with codex space marines

If you're taking an army for it's perceived role and nothing else I don't know why you'd be that mad about it. My melee army doesn't melee as well as another army doesn't really strike me as a serious issue to have, unless you're just that dead-set on having the best army out there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I'm not mad that the DA supplement didn't come out at the same time. I'm annoyed at the hamfisted approach to updating non-codex compliant chapters. They could have very simply stated that DA/BA/SW/etc get doctrines and that their vehicles also get their chapter tactic. That plus the new PDF and boom - at least mostly playable until the new supplements.

Without those changes already poor performing armies got objectively worse in comparison to the other space marine armies that were ALREADY performing better. That's why people are upset about it.

I'm super excited about the new codex, I love power armored armies. I'm just annoyed I don't feel excited to play MY army right now.

This would make sense, if not for the fact that to me it says GW is planning on releasing the other codices so soon that a stop-gap measure would be pointless. Especially since they'll probably be receiving their own versions.

Sterling191 wrote:

Slaul wrote:

I'm not mad that the DA supplement didn't come out at the same time. I'm annoyed at the hamfisted approach to updating non-codex compliant chapters. They could have very simply stated that DA/BA/SW/etc get doctrines and that their vehicles also get their chapter tactic. That plus the new PDF and boom - at least mostly playable until the new supplements.

Without those changes already poor performing armies got objectively worse in comparison to the other space marine armies that were ALREADY performing better. That's why people are upset about it.

I'm super excited about the new codex, I love power armored armies. I'm just annoyed I don't feel excited to play MY army right now.

Ding ding ding.

It's almost as though you're actually more codex compliant than you think you are and consolidation would help fix a bunch of issues regarding updates. Hmm

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

This would make sense, if not for the fact that to me it says GW is planning on releasing the other codices so soon that a stop-gap measure would be pointless. Especially since they'll probably be receiving their own versions.

I'm hopeful that's the case, apparently there are leaks that the September White Dwarf issue is about Dark Angels.

If not though, all my unpainted Space Marine stuff will not be painted as Dark Angels unfortunately.

Slaul wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

This would make sense, if not for the fact that to me it says GW is planning on releasing the other codices so soon that a stop-gap measure would be pointless. Especially since they'll probably be receiving their own versions.

I'm hopeful that's the case, apparently there are leaks that the September White Dwarf issue is about Dark Angels.

If not though, all my unpainted Space Marine stuff will not be painted as Dark Angels unfortunately.

WD doesn't really cover releases like it used to. It could very well just be a lore article about how the Dangles integrate Primaris marines.

tneva82 wrote:

 xttz wrote:

Slaul wrote:


'fethed over' as in no doctrines and no improved chapter tactics.

So something that gets objectively better than it was previously with no downsides, can be described as 'fethed over'?

Got it.

Umm you realize right that power levels are relative don't you? Ergo just because they got something doesn't mean their situation really improved when codex marines took even bigger leap. No point taking ba/da when their roles are done better with codex space marines

Ah, condescension. That tried and tested approach to winning an Internet debate!

So you propose that instead of being happy that my DA are better than then were yesterday, I should instead be angry that my AdMech, DA, GSC & Nids are all relatively worse?

Slaul wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Don’t worry everyone, we’re going to get our own updates soon, this actually proves it I’d say. We’re purposefully not getting certain things like stratagems or Doctrines. I’d say it’s because DA/SW/BA/etc, are going to get their own versions in their books when they come.

Just a hunch anyway, I could be wrong, but I hope I’m right haha.

This is indeed more than likely. A bit awkward in the meanwhile though. Oh well, one can always play those armies using vanilla codex rules, even though it is a somewhat unsatisfying solution.

If I end up wanting to play power armor enough before DA gets a supplement of their own thats what I'll have to do I guess, call my stuff a successor chapter or something except I wont be able to bring any DA specific stuff like Dark Shroud etc.

I personally would have little issue with you playing a Codex: Space Marine custom Dark Angels army meaning you can use the new space marine rules but still include Dark Angels stuff. Especially, if you let me use my Storm Raven to transport Primaris. I would even let you borrow my Space Marine codex so you wouldn't have to buy one to hold you over until the non-codex chapters see full updates. But I suppose that is all down to how flexible your gaming group is, if you are forced to abide GW store rules or if you are a tournament type player.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

I personally would have little issue with you playing a Codex: Space Marine custom Dark Angels army meaning you can use the new space marine rules but still include Dark Angels stuff. Especially, if you let me use my Storm Raven to transport Primaris. I would even let you borrow my Space Marine codex so you wouldn't have to buy one to hold you over until the non-codex chapters see full updates. But I suppose that is all down to how flexible your gaming group is, if you are forced to abide GW store rules or if you are a tournament type player.

This is a great sentiment (and im fortunate enough to have a local environment that is pretty similar), but the onus should never be on the playerbase to unfeth what GW feths up.

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

Slaul wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Don’t worry everyone, we’re going to get our own updates soon, this actually proves it I’d say. We’re purposefully not getting certain things like stratagems or Doctrines. I’d say it’s because DA/SW/BA/etc, are going to get their own versions in their books when they come.

Just a hunch anyway, I could be wrong, but I hope I’m right haha.

This is indeed more than likely. A bit awkward in the meanwhile though. Oh well, one can always play those armies using vanilla codex rules, even though it is a somewhat unsatisfying solution.

If I end up wanting to play power armor enough before DA gets a supplement of their own thats what I'll have to do I guess, call my stuff a successor chapter or something except I wont be able to bring any DA specific stuff like Dark Shroud etc.

I personally would have little issue with you playing a Codex: Space Marine custom Dark Angels army meaning you can use the new space marine rules but still include Dark Angels stuff. Especially, if you let me use my Storm Raven to transport Primaris. I would even let you borrow my Space Marine codex so you wouldn't have to buy one to hold you over until the non-codex chapters see full updates. But I suppose that is all down to how flexible your gaming group is, if you are forced to abide GW store rules or if you are a tournament type player.

I don't think my local gaming group would have an issue, and it is an option I have considered. It just doesn't feel great to have to house rule an entire chapter I guess.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

I personally would have little issue with you playing a Codex: Space Marine custom Dark Angels army meaning you can use the new space marine rules but still include Dark Angels stuff. Especially, if you let me use my Storm Raven to transport Primaris. I would even let you borrow my Space Marine codex so you wouldn't have to buy one to hold you over until the non-codex chapters see full updates. But I suppose that is all down to how flexible your gaming group is, if you are forced to abide GW store rules or if you are a tournament type player.

This is a great sentiment (and im fortunate enough to have a local environment that is pretty similar), but the onus should never be on the playerbase to unfeth what GW feths up.

Agreed.

Also, I think if GW would just post a roadmap saying something like SW September, BA October, GK November, DA December, etc. nobody would have an issue at all, because they KNOW fixes are coming and that there is hope.

Right now all I have to go off of as far as hope my army will be competitive is a potential White Dwarf leak...

Sterling191 wrote:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

I personally would have little issue with you playing a Codex: Space Marine custom Dark Angels army meaning you can use the new space marine rules but still include Dark Angels stuff. Especially, if you let me use my Storm Raven to transport Primaris. I would even let you borrow my Space Marine codex so you wouldn't have to buy one to hold you over until the non-codex chapters see full updates. But I suppose that is all down to how flexible your gaming group is, if you are forced to abide GW store rules or if you are a tournament type player.

This is a great sentiment (and im fortunate enough to have a local environment that is pretty similar), but the onus should never be on the playerbase to unfeth what GW feths up.

I dunno, I've always been a pretty big advocate for "Rule Zero"

Must be something I don’t understand. I have the Dark Angels codex, I have the PDF they just released and I intend to pick up the new SM card pack for the new stratagems (and doctrines). What am I missing?