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 Stormonu wrote:
Must be something I don’t understand. I have the Dark Angels codex, I have the PDF they just released and I intend to pick up the new SM card pack for the new stratagems (and doctrines). What am I missing?

Playing by the rules Dark Angels don't get the new strategems and doctrines. Neither do any of the non-codex compliant chapters (eg. space wolves, blood angels, etc).

Slaul wrote:

 xttz wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 xttz wrote:

So something that gets objectively better than it was previously with no downsides, can be described as 'fethed over'?

Got it.

Im genuinely very confused as to how you think Deathwatch, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Blood Angels are in any meaningful way improved by this update.

I can't tell if you're being disingenuous or just didn't read any of the PDFs.

If your parents give your brother $1000 and give you $10 you are objectively better off than before but are still allowed to be upset at how unfair the situation is and how worse off you are in comparison.

If it's your brothers birthday and not yours and you still get the ten dollars then complaining that you only where given ten dollars is just being selfish. It's the Space Marine codex that released. thus yeah space Marines get all this stuff, it's "our birthday" as it is the Doctrines are something I'd hope to see GW MODIFY for the "snowflake chapters"

BrianDavion wrote:

Slaul wrote:

 xttz wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 xttz wrote:

So something that gets objectively better than it was previously with no downsides, can be described as 'fethed over'?

Got it.

Im genuinely very confused as to how you think Deathwatch, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Blood Angels are in any meaningful way improved by this update.

I can't tell if you're being disingenuous or just didn't read any of the PDFs.

If your parents give your brother $1000 and give you $10 you are objectively better off than before but are still allowed to be upset at how unfair the situation is and how worse off you are in comparison.

If it's your brothers birthday and not yours and you still get the ten dollars then complaining that you only where given ten dollars is just being selfish. It's the Space Marine codex that released. thus yeah space Marines get all this stuff, it's "our birthday" as it is the Doctrines are something I'd hope to see GW MODIFY for the "snowflake chapters"

To continue your analogy the siblings in this case are non-identical twins. They share a 'birthday'. All of the non-codex compliant chapters are still Space Marines.

Slaul wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Must be something I don’t understand. I have the Dark Angels codex, I have the PDF they just released and I intend to pick up the new SM card pack for the new stratagems (and doctrines). What am I missing?

Playing by the rules Dark Angels don't get the new strategems and doctrines. Neither do any of the non-codex compliant chapters (eg. space wolves, blood angels, etc).

Won’t there be a blurb in the base SM codex that will state that they can be used?

I guess for me, even if it doesn’t I’m not affected (and will be using them) because I don’t do tournaments, just home games.

Slaul wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slaul wrote:

 xttz wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 xttz wrote:

So something that gets objectively better than it was previously with no downsides, can be described as 'fethed over'?

Got it.

Im genuinely very confused as to how you think Deathwatch, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Blood Angels are in any meaningful way improved by this update.

I can't tell if you're being disingenuous or just didn't read any of the PDFs.

If your parents give your brother $1000 and give you $10 you are objectively better off than before but are still allowed to be upset at how unfair the situation is and how worse off you are in comparison.

If it's your brothers birthday and not yours and you still get the ten dollars then complaining that you only where given ten dollars is just being selfish. It's the Space Marine codex that released. thus yeah space Marines get all this stuff, it's "our birthday" as it is the Doctrines are something I'd hope to see GW MODIFY for the "snowflake chapters"

To continue your analogy the siblings in this case are non-identical twins. They share a 'birthday'. All of the non-codex compliant chapters are still Space Marines.

So the correct answer here was to not give ANY of the space marine chapters anything special and have all of them go out of this one book. That way it'd be completely fair AND we wouldn't need to keep doing seperate releases for 18 million friggin marine armies.

 Stormonu wrote:

Slaul wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Must be something I don’t understand. I have the Dark Angels codex, I have the PDF they just released and I intend to pick up the new SM card pack for the new stratagems (and doctrines). What am I missing?

Playing by the rules Dark Angels don't get the new strategems and doctrines. Neither do any of the non-codex compliant chapters (eg. space wolves, blood angels, etc).

Won’t there be a blurb in the base SM codex that will state that they can be used?

I guess for me, even if it doesn’t I’m not affected (and will be using them) because I don’t do tournaments, just home games.

GW confirmed on Facebook that by the rules non-codex compliant chapters do not get access to the doctrines or strategems.

Home games are better anyways

This is a result of having a separate codices for variant chapters. Sometimes you get more rules, sometimes you get less rules. If you want all the same stuff than Vanilla marines and at the same time, then you need to join the rest of us in that one book and become a subset of that codex just like Black Templars.

Slaul wrote:

To continue your analogy the siblings in this case are non-identical twins. They share a 'birthday'. All of the non-codex compliant chapters are still Space Marines.

Nah. The Ultras and Sallies are twins. DA don't share the birthday. Sorry.

For those playing a Legion without a splat book yet, the PDF looks liek the old datasheets just with Aand they shall know no fear swapped for Angeles of death.

They may be updated and worded as per the codex in their new datasheets

Sterling191 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


All the melee-focused chapters getting meaningfully improved by a flat +1A when charging or charged? Don't talk crazy talk.

Lets talk crazy talk. What BA, SW, DW or DA units are going to see serious play that werent before because of that additional +1A?

Aggressors, since they also got big bonus to their statline. Maybe.

But none of those factions were in "serious play" and today's updates won't change that. Popularity of Blood Angels and Deathwatch will probably stay the same: some representation but rarely reaching the top 4 of large events.

 Crimson wrote:
This is a result of having a separate codices for variant chapters. Sometimes you get more rules, sometimes you get less rules. If you want all the same stuff than Vanilla marines and at the same time, then you need to join the rest of us in that one book and become a subset of that codex just like Black Templars.

Slaul wrote:

To continue your analogy the siblings in this case are non-identical twins. They share a 'birthday'. All of the non-codex compliant chapters are still Space Marines.

Nah. The Ultras and Sallies are twins. DA don't share the birthday. Sorry.

This.

Rather than wait for his own birthday, Slaul is pouting, stomping his feet and demanding he get a present as good as his brother's, despite being offered the chance to play with it too.

 Crimson wrote:
This is a result of having a separate codices for variant chapters. Sometimes you get more rules, sometimes you get less rules. If you want all the same stuff than Vanilla marines and at the same time, then you need to join the rest of us in that one book and become a subset of that codex just like Black Templars.

I suspect that'll happen naturally. The next Codex Angels and mostly-kinda-sorta-not-Codex Wolves will actually be supplements that tie into the Space Marines codex same as everyone else.

Voss wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
This is a result of having a separate codices for variant chapters. Sometimes you get more rules, sometimes you get less rules. If you want all the same stuff than Vanilla marines and at the same time, then you need to join the rest of us in that one book and become a subset of that codex just like Black Templars.

I suspect that'll happen naturally. The next Codex Angels and mostly-kinda-sorta-not-Codex Wolves will actually be supplements that tie into the Space Marines codex same as everyone else.

I really hope that is the case. It would make perfect sense and limit the sort of issues the variant chapters are having now.

 xttz wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
This is a result of having a separate codices for variant chapters. Sometimes you get more rules, sometimes you get less rules. If you want all the same stuff than Vanilla marines and at the same time, then you need to join the rest of us in that one book and become a subset of that codex just like Black Templars.

Slaul wrote:

To continue your analogy the siblings in this case are non-identical twins. They share a 'birthday'. All of the non-codex compliant chapters are still Space Marines.

Nah. The Ultras and Sallies are twins. DA don't share the birthday. Sorry.

This.

Rather than wait for his own birthday, Slaul is pouting, stomping his feet and demanding he get a present as good as his brother's, despite being offered the chance to play with it too.

There is no need to be rude about it. I'm not sure how you don't understand why people that play these other chapters aren't as happy.

Slaul wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slaul wrote:

 xttz wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 xttz wrote:

So something that gets objectively better than it was previously with no downsides, can be described as 'fethed over'?

Got it.

Im genuinely very confused as to how you think Deathwatch, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Blood Angels are in any meaningful way improved by this update.

I can't tell if you're being disingenuous or just didn't read any of the PDFs.

If your parents give your brother $1000 and give you $10 you are objectively better off than before but are still allowed to be upset at how unfair the situation is and how worse off you are in comparison.

If it's your brothers birthday and not yours and you still get the ten dollars then complaining that you only where given ten dollars is just being selfish. It's the Space Marine codex that released. thus yeah space Marines get all this stuff, it's "our birthday" as it is the Doctrines are something I'd hope to see GW MODIFY for the "snowflake chapters"

To continue your analogy the siblings in this case are non-identical twins. They share a 'birthday'. All of the non-codex compliant chapters are still Space Marines.

ohh I'm sorry did a dark angels codex drop alongside the space marine one? No? then they don't share the same birthday.

Slaul wrote:

 xttz wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
This is a result of having a separate codices for variant chapters. Sometimes you get more rules, sometimes you get less rules. If you want all the same stuff than Vanilla marines and at the same time, then you need to join the rest of us in that one book and become a subset of that codex just like Black Templars.

Slaul wrote:

To continue your analogy the siblings in this case are non-identical twins. They share a 'birthday'. All of the non-codex compliant chapters are still Space Marines.

Nah. The Ultras and Sallies are twins. DA don't share the birthday. Sorry.

This.

Rather than wait for his own birthday, Slaul is pouting, stomping his feet and demanding he get a present as good as his brother's, despite being offered the chance to play with it too.

There is no need to be rude about it. I'm not sure how you don't understand why people that play these other chapters aren't as happy.

Because this happens every time a codex gets released. A small group has to make a big fuss about how some other faction isn't getting updated this very instant. After multiple decades of one codex at a time, its simply tiresome to see people complain because they don't have theirs right now.

The fact that in this case its ironic (because you are getting updates) just makes it more annoying.

If you've really just have to complain, the news and rumor thread doesn't seem like the place- there's multiple places in general discussion devoted to complaining about space marines.

I agree that is is a sucky situation for the variant chapters, but every time I suggest that they would be folded in the vanilla codex so that the rules would be unified the shrieking is deafening...

Well as far as DW is concerned, Auto Bolt Rifles are strictly better than any other small arms weapon.

Stormbolters have to be dropped into double tap range to outperform them.

Bolt Rifles are poop. The range advantage (for 1 shot) is null and void when compared to the advance and fire while paired with an Agressor.

 Crimson wrote:
I agree that is is a sucky situation for the variant chapters, but every time I suggest that they would be folded in the vanilla codex so that the rules would be unified the shrieking is deafening...

Exactly. They won't be missing much and they can get their couple of unique units that are actually unique. Granted White Scars could've gotten a couple more but Ultramarines got a special Honour Guard and the Tyrannic War Vets.

I really hope BA, SW, and DA are suppliments, and not full on codexes. It would make things SO much simpler, and the snowflakes get to have all their special units along with all the vanilla units.

Deathwatch I'm not sure. . . they only really have 2 unique units, and only 1 is truly unique--the corvus blackstar. The watch master is just a chapter master. What sets them apart is that they really have considerably LESS units, and I'm not sure with the special issue ammunition you can easily just plug in vanilla stuff and expect it to be balanced.

And honestly when you think about the fluff, they probably shouldn't have all the things, either. Fewer units, but rules to make them a little better--which fits the fluff of them being regular marines, but the best of them, sent to fight xenos scum.

Really DW just need a couple little tweaks, like giving vehicle storm bolters SIA and giving the Corvus Blackstar PotMS. Or maybe giving the Corvus the Assault Vehicle rule when in Hover mode or something.

The upgrades to auto bolt rifles, stalker bolt rifles, aggressors and inceptors are significant for DW and should not be overlooked. A squad of 5x auto bolt rifle intercessors, 4 aggressors, and 1 inceptor is now much more deadly and harder to kill (25 T5 wounds, effectively). Though you can argue their improvement is offset by being shot at by C:SM marines with extra -1 AP on many of their weapons :/

Perhaps there's no answer for this yet (as the codex isn't full out). But I had wanted to have my Primaris marines be an offshoot of my salamanders army. Is there a way for them to have slightly different traits, but still all be a 'battleforged' or 'cohesive' army? Sorry if I'm not articulating that well enough.

Essentially, I'm looking to have my primaris have a slightly different trait, but still work as part of a salamanders army.

 skullking wrote:
Perhaps there's no answer for this yet (as the codex isn't full out). But I had wanted to have my Primaris marines be an offshoot of my salamanders army. Is there a way for them to have slightly different traits, but still all be a 'battleforged' or 'cohesive' army? Sorry if I'm not articulating that well enough.

Essentially, I'm looking to have my primaris have a slightly different trait, but still work as part of a salamanders army.

That's absolutely possible. In fact they use Salamanders as an example of creating a successor chapter:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/06/space-marines-preview-create-your-own-chapter-tacticsgw-homepage-post-1/

Slaul wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Must be something I don’t understand. I have the Dark Angels codex, I have the PDF they just released and I intend to pick up the new SM card pack for the new stratagems (and doctrines). What am I missing?

Playing by the rules Dark Angels don't get the new strategems and doctrines. Neither do any of the non-codex compliant chapters (eg. space wolves, blood angels, etc).

Both blood angels and dark angels are codex compliant. GW really needs a new excuse seeing as black templars somehow get them

Quasistellar wrote:
Deathwatch I'm not sure. . . they only really have 2 unique units, and only 1 is truly unique--the corvus blackstar. The watch master is just a chapter master. What sets them apart is that they really have considerably LESS units, and I'm not sure with the special issue ammunition you can easily just plug in vanilla stuff and expect it to be balanced.

That's the thing, tho. Most of primaris stuff doesn't get SIA anyway, so they could have just let DW have access to vanguard as is and put little note they might get SIA in updated codex, done. Or just give them all the damn SIA, seeing Codex units now have virtually the same thing in their doctrines, so any arguments about lack of balance would have been completely laughable. In fact, seeing DW tactics are now inferior to Codex chapter traits, SIA should have been reduced to zero points because doctrines are free and DW is pretty much SM -2 now.

And honestly when you think about the fluff, they probably shouldn't have all the things, either. Fewer units, but rules to make them a little better--which fits the fluff of them being regular marines, but the best of them, sent to fight xenos scum.

DW have been pretty much worse Sternguard for 5 books now, with slight exception of most of last year. They are back to sucking, though, given the new SM don't have dumb rule preventing using doctrines with bolter discipline (SIA does), and they can freely stack all their AP bonuses with 1 or 2 exceptions, while SIA is capped making it essentially half useless on stalker bolters.

The upgrades to auto bolt rifles, stalker bolt rifles, aggressors and inceptors are significant for DW and should not be overlooked. A squad of 5x auto bolt rifle intercessors, 4 aggressors, and 1 inceptor is now much more deadly and harder to kill (25 T5 wounds, effectively).

Except SM have got point drops on top of it, while a lot of DW stuff stayed as is, badly overpriced, and that's without even considering extra SIA tax and the fact all SM are now far superior in bolter use to supposed elite veterans. 1 extra wound does nothing when your codex equivalent outshoots you by a big margin now...

 xttz wrote:
Rather than wait for his own birthday, Slaul is pouting, stomping his feet and demanding he get a present as good as his brother's, despite being offered the chance to play with it too.

And I like how several people came here to post laughably biased gak when the whole point of 8th edition is 'points identical on everything alike' so the least GW should have done was to give all variant chapters point drops to SM level, seeing they are now across the board inferior to new SM and cost more. Try to twist it however you want, it makes no sense besides being insulting, as is keeping the nonsense SIA limitations when SM now get to laugh at it. I get GW might be too lazy to give people doctrines and better tactics, sure, that might wait for new book, but not spending 2 minutes copy-pasting points costs from new book is just crass.

 Crimson wrote:
I agree that is is a sucky situation for the variant chapters, but every time I suggest that they would be folded in the vanilla codex so that the rules would be unified the shrieking is deafening...

And maybe this is an elaborate scheme to soften those screams once they release Supplement: Blood/Dark Angels books.

It'll be a bonus to have been rolling into the vanilla codex because now they'd get 100% of the goodies while still keeping their unique stuff, so they'll have nothing legit to complain about
It's an obvious win-win for both GW and the players

-

 skullking wrote:
Perhaps there's no answer for this yet (as the codex isn't full out). But I had wanted to have my Primaris marines be an offshoot of my salamanders army. Is there a way for them to have slightly different traits, but still all be a 'battleforged' or 'cohesive' army? Sorry if I'm not articulating that well enough.

Essentially, I'm looking to have my primaris have a slightly different trait, but still work as part of a salamanders army.

If those Primaris are in a separate Detachment, they can have a custom trait and work fine alongside a Salamanders Detachment. That army would be battleforged and also benefit from Combat Doctrines (as long as there aren’t other allies), but things like re-roll auras, etc.. wouldn’t work across Detachments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It‘s kinda funny Blood Angels and Dark Angels from the Original Angels of Death Codex aren’t Angels of Death

Slaul wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Must be something I don’t understand. I have the Dark Angels codex, I have the PDF they just released and I intend to pick up the new SM card pack for the new stratagems (and doctrines). What am I missing?

Playing by the rules Dark Angels don't get the new strategems and doctrines. Neither do any of the non-codex compliant chapters (eg. space wolves, blood angels, etc).

DA/SW/BA players just needs those faq/errata and their codexes. To get doctrines and all those things we will have to wait for their new codexes, which will most likely be after all the supplement (i.e. in a long time).

 Galef wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I agree that is is a sucky situation for the variant chapters, but every time I suggest that they would be folded in the vanilla codex so that the rules would be unified the shrieking is deafening...

And maybe this is an elaborate scheme to soften those screams once they release Supplement: Blood/Dark Angels books.

It'll be a bonus to have been rolling into the vanilla codex because now they'd get 100% of the goodies while still keeping their unique stuff, so they'll have nothing legit to complain about
It's an obvious win-win for both GW and the players

-

It is pretty clear that DA/BA and SW are not going to have codex "supplements". They will get full fledged codexes, and GW is doing so in order to completly separate those different flavor of marines (because it is just better from a business standpoint, even if it is weird from a rule standpoint). And the best proof we have of that is that DA/BA/SW don't get doctrines - if a codex 2.0 gets out, those chapters will most likely get their own specific doctrines, cementing the differences between chapters.

GW is just releaseing that PDF to invite DA/BA/SW players to still buy their new merch, but the rules are not changed.

 Crimson wrote:
I agree that is is a sucky situation for the variant chapters, but every time I suggest that they would be folded in the vanilla codex so that the rules would be unified the shrieking is deafening...

Problem is when this kind of argument is made it is made by people that want those variant chapters to basically lose all their specificity, by giving their specific units to all or just discontinue those specific units, which is frankly ridiculous.

Preorders up on the NZ site:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NZ/searchResults?N=710747498+3206404541+3637769477&utm_campaign=d0d0392085-GW_17th_August_Space_Marines_NZ&utm_source=GamesWorkshop.com&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c6e14e39d2-d0d0392085-113591193

Jeez, with those local prices it’s no wonder I buy all my GW stuff when I’m in the UK...

I play world eaters does this mean I used to have a birthday 3 years ago in 7th and now I'm birthdayless? XD

 Latro_ wrote:
I play world eaters does this mean I used to have a birthday 3 years ago in 7th and now I'm birthdayless? XD

Only until such time as you are re-born.

Also, did you notice that Hateful Assault applies to things like Maulerfiends and Defilers, too?

 Latro_ wrote:
I play world eaters does this mean I used to have a birthday 3 years ago in 7th and now I'm birthdayless? XD

you're birthday was the CSM codex a few weeks back.. you didn't get a cake so much as a trifle. stale cake mixed with some jam to cover it up