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 Ordana wrote:
I don't think Twisted Helix is something you can do with a list like what your considering. You have to many units coming in at the same time for Perfect Ambush to cover it so your depending on 9" charges and then you 'need' the +2 from Clamavus + 4AE and the Broodsurge Deliverance iconward trait to make them reliable.

Failing charges as GSC is a very fast way to lose games.

I've tended to agree - so I'm really just trying to explore alternatives.

7" charge with rerolls has about an 83% chance to go off, compared with only a 66% chance on a rerolling 8" charge.
Which put another way means a 57% chance to make 3 successful charges, rather than about 29%.

On the other hand, being S5 base is a good buff versus T4, T5 and T8, which is a reasonable range of targets on a lot of tables.

I don't think you can expect to ever get more than 3 units in range of a single clamavus and the Iconward with +1 S banner and reroll charge warlord trait. Terrain and opponent deployment depending - but unless they are really castled up, or you engage in imaginative conga lining, you are going to have the remaining units outside.

Which leads to "if I'm going to perfect ambush one final unit in for reliability, I might as well use it on something like a 10 man unit of Abberants - because its more concentrated than 20 acolytes."
But I feel you are then quickly heading back towards what I'd consider "the standard GSC list", which I don't think its unfair to say hasn't really worked competitively.

What I was thinking is that by having so many acolytes, if you do fail a couple of charge, its not the end of the world, because you have a lot of others to roll. The downside is eating a lot of overwatch, but thats something you have bodies to take. Ork players sometimes end up gambling on da Jump and ere we go and I think that only has a 50/50. (Not that Orks are dominating the meta, but I think they are doing better than GSC).

An idea I had might be trying 3 units with twisted helix+broodsurge rerolls+Clamavus, while the other 3 have 4AE+Iconward S Banner. This is probably irrational though - because you are not concentrating all the buffs to making failures really unlikely. It might be that 120 acolytes is just too many. Or perhaps it would be better to take them in units of say 15, and have 8 potential charges. Although this may be becoming silly.

Mass charges usually don't work well, especially not from the same origin point. You end up getting in the way of each other if there's even room to put all those models down, unless your opponent does something silly like let you DS in-between two different targets that you can charge at from the same point but in totally different directions.

One of the best parts of GSC is that you can keep so many of your models off the table and deliver them staggered as they are needed, to where they are needed, based on the evolving game situation. Too many players make the mistake of thinking everything has to come in on T2 in one big charge, when in fact that rarely works out well against an opponent with any board awareness.

32mm bases really bone horde assault armies.

How do you arm your acolytes? I´m going with 2x20, so far I´ve got 3 saws and a drill. And a couple demo charges for narrative games.

The competitive choice is only rock saws, usually in unit of 10 with 4 saws. I wouldn't run more than one unit of 20 kitted out for combat, typically you're only going to be able to get the perfect ambush and buff combo drop off once per game and if you're not doing that two units of 10 gives you more bang for your buck in terms of delivery options.

The other way to run a 20-man squad is with 20 hand flamers and use the strat to appear 3 inches away and waste something with 20d6 flamer shots.

On the subject of Rock Saws, the new Goliath Forge Born and Stimmers kit comes with four of them and they look fairly easy to convert over for Acolytes (one in particular is "holstered" on a strap). If anyone happens to have a large Necromunda group it might not hurt to check in with Goliath players for spares.

I have started including a Rock Cutter in my Acolyte squads with relatively good results. My local gaming group has had a bit of a strange meta shift where we have had an unusual influx in Aggressors, Custodes, Mega Nobz, Grotesques, and Tyranid Warriors. These targets have the annoyance of "wasting" a 2-damage Rock Saw hit with their third wound, but with Cutters there are relatively good odds of each wound being a kill (either from a natural 3 on damage or by rolling a 3+ or 2+ for the ability after damage). I would be curious if someone more mathematically-inclined could math out the relative efficiency of the two weapons against such targets. My experience so far has been that the Cutters "feel" more efficient due to their ability and they seem to work well, but the sample size is so small at the moment that a bit of math to confirm would be nice.

Another item relating to the discussion earlier regarding sending in waves, I'm also playing with the idea of Metamorphs as a first-wave for chaff destruction. On average a squad of 5 with just the stock Talon + Rending Claw should kill about 7 GEQ models or inflict 5 wounds to a MEQ (so a full squad of scouts or little over half of a Primaris squad). The stock squad is the same cost as a bare-bones infantry squad so they are trading evenly (or up in the case of a marine unit) while also being mostly independent.

It slows things down dramatically and may get you accused of being "that guy," but technically in a unit like acolytes where you have multiple types of weapons fighting against multi-wound models that you don't kill in even increments (i.e. 3 wound models if you have rock saws), can't you alternate your attacks between the saws and the non-saws in the order that best kills models so you waste the least possible damage?

I.e. you attack first with a rock saw guy, and if you do 2 damage to a model, you then attack with with a rending claws + cultist knife guy (if you do it this way you do have to do it per model per the rulebook, so you gotta do the cultist knife at the same time you do the rending claws) until you take the last wound off, then go back to a rock saw, and if say you miss that attack, put in another rock saw, etc etc. This way you don't lose any efficiency unless you run out of non-saw cultists before you run out of saw cultists, which is unlikely given the ratios.

Note that I have never actually done this and it just occurred to me right now, so I am not guaranteeing this is right...but as I'm reading the core rulebook right now, it does seem written that way? As I read it, the player taking the wounds gets to allocate the wounds, but you get to choose the order your models within the unit fight in, and once someone takes a wound, they have to keep taking them, so RAW this should work?

@OP, thank you for that initial post! Very helpful as a Tyranids player looking to add GSC.

NinthMusketeer wrote:@OP, thank you for that initial post! Very helpful as a Tyranids player looking to add GSC.

You are most welcome! I'm glad you found it helpful.

yukishiro1 wrote:It slows things down dramatically and may get you accused of being "that guy," but technically in a unit like acolytes where you have multiple types of weapons fighting against multi-wound models that you don't kill in even increments (i.e. 3 wound models if you have rock saws), can't you alternate your attacks between the saws and the non-saws in the order that best kills models so you waste the least possible damage?

I think you could do it this way (don't have my rulebook available at the moment) but I think it still has the issue of "loosing" damage since the saw model needs to resolve all of their attacks before moving on to a different model as you pointed out. If the saw model gets two hits and wounds damage from the second wound is "lost" before you would have an opportunity for a regular grunt to take a swing at it.

Yeah, you're still going to have lost damage no matter what. But at least it mitigates it a bit.

Hi again. I just started playing some warhammer again after a long break. After some games with Tyranids I felt confident enough to dip into bringing my GSC to the battle. I was hesitant, as GSC has a lot of things going on.

Anyway, I do remember having my santus with sniper rifle popping up turn 1 and shoot a psyker. Perhaps that was in the small window between codex publishing and before the rule change that tactical reserves can not arrive turn 1?

Is there any way for GSC to arive from reserve turn 1? I thought maiby in our own deployment zone or something?

Cheers.

 Niiai wrote:

Anyway, I do remember having my santus with sniper rifle popping up turn 1 and shoot a psyker. Perhaps that was in the small window between codex publishing and before the rule change that tactical reserves can not arrive turn 1?

The Sanctus can still do this trick by deploying from an ambush marker and using the perfect ambush stratagem (for free, due to their cult assassin rule). It is still quite a good trick.

 Niiai wrote:

Is there any way for GSC to arive from reserve turn 1? I thought maiby in our own deployment zone or something?

Currently the only way is via the Psychic Summoning stratagem, which deploys a new (reinforcement points-paid for) unit from Cult Ambush in place of casting any powers from a given psyker There are, however, a lot of tricks that can allow for a lot of first-turn pressure if you built for it (Jackals being pushed up by Ridgerunners using their Flare Launchers, Goliath Truck using Reckless Maneuver to unload passengers after moving, Genetic Linage for advance and charge Acolytes, etc.).

Could you be more spesific on how to get first turn charge?

I also play tyrnids. (Started collecting GSC because I remember them from 2nd edition. They are really cool! And I wanted allies for my Nids.) If I want first turn charges as a Nid I will usualy go kraken genestealers and the swarmlord.

 Niiai wrote:
Could you be more spesific on how to get first turn charge?

Sure, though as a caveat all of these are somewhat gimmicky to one degree or another.

Method 1: Psychic Summons

This version is fairly straightforward, you just need to set aside some reinforcement points and have a psyker deployed on the table to use the Psychic Summons stratagem. In most cases this is going to be used to summon Metamorphs or Acolytes since they are cheap in power and are thus fairly reliable to get. Once the squad deploys you can use Perfect Ambush to move them closer and increase the likelihood of a charge.

There are two main drawbacks to this method. The first is that it is a bit random in how large a unit you can bring in and Perfect Ambush can roll low for distance. The second is that this method happens before you have an opportunity to kill screens, so depending on the match-up you might not get much benefit from using it on the first turn (best case is vs an army that is aggressively using infiltrators to secure the midfield and leaves their backfield exposed).

Method 2: Reckless Maneuver

Also fairly straightforward, drive a Goliath Truck up as quickly as possible and use the Reckless Maneuver stratagem to disembark its passengers after moving for a grand travel distance of 17'' (generally enough to put one in striking range of the front line).

The drawbacks here are that it is fairly easy to telegraph what you are intending on doing with this, especially if you only have 1-2 Goliath Trucks. If your opponent gets first turn and destroys your truck there isn't much you can do about it. It also requires a fairly significant command point investment since the stratagem in question is tied to the Deliverance Broodsurge specialist detachment (though admittedly this specialist detachment has other perks that make it desirable too).

Method 3: Atlan Slingshot

This one involves using the Ridgerunner's Flare Launcher to push Atlan Jackals up the field to screen out the opposition. At minimum the Jackals under the effects of the Flare Launcher can move 20'' which is generally enough to get to any hostile target. Normally the focus is on shooting away screens with Shotguns and Grenade Launchers, but you can use Psychic Stimulus to allow one squad to charge afterwards to tie up a target. The nice thing about this one is that it doesn't require much if any command point investment and has minimal variance involved, but conversely the overall damage potential is somewhat low (outside of screen clearance).

Main drawback here is that it requires a fairly sizable investment and has a lot of moving parts that need to line up in order to get the charge. This tactic also tends to favor taking Rusted Claw, Four-Armed Emperor, or Twisted Helix creeds since each has something that improves an element of it. Rusted Claw removes the accuracy penalty from the Jackal's assault weapons while Four-Armed Emperor and Twisted Helix extend the threat ranges (and, tend to favor units that appreciate the Jackals pushing back the enemy so they can deep strike in).

Method 4: Ambush Token

This one was discussed in some depth earlier in this thread if I remember right, but it basically boils down to using Perfect Ambush on a unit setting up via an Ambush Token to move outside of the deployment zone (average of 3'') followed by a move with advance to push up the field. As mentioned before, any unit can advance and charge with the Psychic Stimulus power while Acolytes and the Sanctus can do so with a stratagem and Purestrain Genestealers/Patriarchs can do so innately.

This one tends to be rather CP hungry but in some ways it is the least gimmicky of the three since it doesn't require any special army construction considerations. Like the Atlan one above it tends to work best with the Four-Armed Emperor or Twisted Helix who can extend the threat range a bit for the hybrid models.


If you are going for early pressure you are probably going to be combining a couple of these together so you have sufficient threat saturation (possibly also include Kraken 'stealers + Swarmy).

Can one use Perfect AMbush on units deploying via Ambush Tokens?

 Niiai wrote:
Can one use Perfect AMbush on units deploying via Ambush Tokens?

Like Obama said, yes one can. Make perfect ambush great again

 Niiai wrote:
Can one use Perfect AMbush on units deploying via Ambush Tokens?

Yes, since the condition is whenever an infantry unit sets up using the Cult Ambush ability, which includes both the ambush tokens and deepstrike.

Question on Demo charges, or grenades in general for the Jackels. I've seen there be different answers everywhere and was wondering if GSC players typically do this or not.

For any type of gernade, can you advance and throw one? Some argue you can't because only assault can advance and shoot. others argue you can get around it because gernades are in place of shooting the typical guns.

Normally I don't nit pick, but this comes up often when I play GSC in terms of wanting to do it, because their limited 6 inch range makes a huge difference if I can advance or not.

While I am not an expert on the subject I would say no.

The rules for shooting states who can shoot and the rules that follow after that. Units that have advanced can not shoot.

Under grenades it states that each time a unit shoots one of the models can throw a grenade. But since you have advanced you can not shoot.

A unit with assault weapon may fire the assault weapon even if they advances. If you do so you suptrack 1 from any hit roll when firering that weapon. Since it refers to the weapon I would assume you can only fire the ssault weapon.

The rule for assault weapon does not let you throw a grenade instead as the overall rules says you can not shoot if you have advanced.

If you want to argue further take it to YMTC part of the forum.

Not really arguing it one way or another, I 100% don't know the answer... but everywhere you see many different answers.

I posted it here only because this seems like something primarily GSC players would do with jackel charges if it was an even slightly accepted thing to do.

Keramory wrote:

For any type of gernade, can you advance and throw one? Some argue you can't because only assault can advance and shoot. others argue you can get around it because gernades are in place of shooting the typical guns.

Currently you cannot. While they are used in place of a different weapon, they are still classified as a shooting attack and fall under the rules for advancing.

Now it is worth noting that in the Index army list Demolition Charges were Assault D6 weapons instead of Grenade D6 so some of the confusion might be due to that. Also the vehicle-mounted Cache of Demolition Charges is Assault D6 too.

If I am running a 10 man squad with mininglasers to apear from ambush would you rather run the with webers for 1 point or grenade launchers for 3 points?

Grenade launchers seems unapealing for me. Unlessyou shoot at T6 you are wounding on 5+ with krak grenade.

Weber on the other han is S4 range 16 and auto hits. Also will work very good as owerwatch vs charges. What do you think?

Also, the power maul? 4 points for S5 seems very exspesie. Can you ever see it making its points back?

Honestly I've never read anyone in favor for webbers. GL adds a slight benefit of firepower, but I would go as bare bones as possible personally. Neophytes are CP, little more, unless you deep strike them to blast something in the face.

Niiai wrote:If I am running a 10 man squad with mininglasers to apear from ambush would you rather run the with webers for 1 point or grenade launchers for 3 points?

I tend to take Webbers with Mining Laser squads. The squad will generally be focused on positioning to take shots at hardened targets, but having cheap auto-hitting weapons for charge deterrence is helpful. Webbers are also rather fun with Shotgun squads with Web Pistol leader for a trio of auto-hitting guns.

I do like Grenade Launchers but I generally take them with Seismic Cannons since the two weapons have similar firing modes. The two weapons working together basically give you the S3 firepower of 10 autogun Neophytes in double-tap range concentrated into 4 models at full range, which keeps the squad's firepower fairly consistent until down to the last 5 models. In addition, the 8 S6 shots also let them threaten heavy infantry fairly well which is something that the squad usually struggles to do.

I admittedly unusually use said squads in more mechanized builds, since the concentrated firepower works well with open topped Goliath Trucks.

Niiai wrote:
Also, the power maul? 4 points for S5 seems very exspesie. Can you ever see it making its points back?

It is hard to justify melee weaponry on autogun squads but it is a bit easier with shotgun squads. They don't really need special weapons and don't want heavy weapons so the total investment tends to be fairly low and they also tend to like getting within charge range to take advantage of the S4 firing mode. Twisted Helix gives it a bit of a bump as well.

Keramory wrote:Honestly I've never read anyone in favor for webbers.

To be fair, they were a niche weapon in the 7th edition codex (small blast weapon that used enemy strength for armor piercing) and a fairly poor weapon in the Index. The codex version is a fairly decent weapon with the addition of automatically hitting targets and bargin cost.

The thing about the webbers is you are not taking a 10 man squad for 50 points and thinking 'I am taking this for the webbers.' You are buying the squad for a purpose. Like say shooting mining lasers.

When you have already spent 74 points on mining lasers the cost of 2 points for two weabbers seems like a good bargain.

I do not know how good shotgun squads are. But the webber pistol sounds OK in there as well. Although if you are range 6 flamers could be good as well.

2d3 autohits S4 on overwatch makes sure you kill at least one model if something regular charges you.

I got some ideas for nice Ratling proxies, inspired by this famous drawing of "Nocturnal warriors of Hrud" http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-O-1fwzj_jZM/UfP561vIvLI/AAAAAAAAAQY/OnnNf-9TWyI/s1600/Other_dangerous_aliens.jpg or Star Wars Javas: Basically tiny bumps of robes, that look barely human, brandishing huge sniper rifles.
Now, for me to decide if I just want to do a few as an art project, or if I want to go doing real units, so 10 or even 20 models of them, I would love to have the answer to some questions:
a) They are legal in my GSC list, aren't they? They are Imperial Guards choices, after all, right?
and
b) Has anyone tried them in GSC and can tell me, f they are actually any good, or just a waste of points and AM elite slots?
I mean, GSC has access to some quite decent sniper choices, between the Jackal Alpha and the Sanctus, but sometimes piling on more of a good thing works in 40k.
Like 2 JA, 2 Sancti, AND 20 Ratlings should give most opponents headaches about deploying their buff chars...

Somehow I also feel their special mix of threatening AND annoying fits well into GSC overall playstile.

So, some thoughts about the idea from you guys?

1d4chan gives them good reviews. They should fit fairly well with GSC shenanigans. Taking put characters is a nice little minigame.

(Search for ratlings to find the entry.)

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Imperial_Guard(8E)#Elites

So bit of a different question here. I have a squad of Neophytes and I want to equip them in a manner useful for both 40k AND for Kill Team. Any advice?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
So bit of a different question here. I have a squad of Neophytes and I want to equip them in a manner useful for both 40k AND for Kill Team. Any advice?

Hmm, I would take the leader with Cultist Knife and Webpistol, 2 guys with Mining Laser, 2 guys with Grenade Launcher, 5 guys with shotgun. In 40k I would consider putting them in a Goliath, to improve the mediocre range of the weaponry by using them as mech-infantry assault squad. In Kill Team distances are lower to begin with, and you got a good choice of weapon profiles against most things you might be up against.

Thanks!