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I feel like it could’ve been cool if they did a Primaris Boltrifle version of the storm bolter on their vehicles. Would give them a similar 30” range, with 2-4 shots and -1AP, and matched the aesthetic of the marines a little more than cheap, mass produced Stubbers. That said I don’t mind the look of Stubbers on marine tanks per say, just doesn’t scream, “most kitted out and high tech gear of the imperium,” to me that marines tend to get.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Internal consistency/external consistency. Tonally most Space Marines don't wear camouflage for reasons of ego/pride in their colours/a desire to make sure the enemy sees what kills them, yet now the Imperial Fists (to pick a standout example) have bright yellow stealth robots?

A ) IF are idiots/outlier, not standard, B ) if SM don't wear camouflage, explain this then:





There is actually whole chapter on camouflage in the Codex, yes, some SM like to shoot themselves in the foot, but they are by no means the majority.

except it's rare for us to see camo'd marines of any chapter. proclkaiming the fists to be the outlier in this regard is utterly at odds with what we see

When I first saw the Vanguard marines I found it weird that they would go through the trouble of gearing up for an infiltration mission, with camo cloaks, silecers etc, and then just wear their bright af chapter color scheme complete with golden bling and floating bright mechanical devices. At that point why even bother?

BrianDavion wrote:
except it's rare for us to see camo'd marines of any chapter. proclkaiming the fists to be the outlier in this regard is utterly at odds with what we see

That’s right. You don’t see them. Same reason you don’t see a purple ork. They’re too stealthy.

In one of the deathwatch books they use active camouflage on their armor, it changes color as needed. But when the action goes hot, they turn it off.

I just assume the infiltrators are the same way. On the way up to battle they’re sneaky, but once it starts the show off their chapter color for honor and glory like any other marine.

 argonak wrote:
In one of the deathwatch books they use active camouflage on their armor, it changes color as needed. But when the action goes hot, they turn it off.

I just assume the infiltrators are the same way. On the way up to battle they’re sneaky, but once it starts the show off their chapter color for honor and glory like any other marine.

makes sense

I'm worried that some of the people complaining about stealth and camouflage here aren't aware of, or are forgetting about the roots of 40k. I mean, we're talking about a universe in which interplanetary space battles and orbital bombardments are a thing, and the antagonists still settle their differences by fighting with axes and swords? Over-the-top, brightly coloured, power armoured, chainsword wielding superhumans have been a core part of 40k since its inception. Don't get me wrong, I actually like the clean, tactical aesthetic of Intercessors (only Intercessors mind ). They're nice models, and it's something different, but if anything, the lack of chainswords and boxy vehicles is a step away from its roots. I'm not saying that's a good thing or a bad thing, but it's undoubtedly an aesthetic change, and some people aren't going to like that, because it messes with fond childhood memories.

As far as the Invictor is concerned, everyone here seems to be overlooking the absolute worst thing about that model, and that is the pilot's legs! Seriously! Who sits with their knees and feet together like that?! It's so uncomfortable and unnatural!

Anyway, absolutely none of this is about stubbers, and this thread really could have ended when

BrianDavion wrote:if Jes Goodwin wishes they'd used stubbers more that might just be the real reason. to enforce the commonness. I'm given the impression that the Primaris project is, as much as anything Jes Goodwin going "ya know.. in retrospect... wouldn't this be cooler?"

because that's almost certainly the actual answer.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
They're nice models, and it's something different, but if anything, the lack of chainswords and boxy vehicles is a step away from its roots.

What do you mean lack of chainswords?

that's a customization, primaris do have a distinct lack of chainswords which is annoying I agree

BrianDavion wrote:
that's a customization, primaris do have a distinct lack of chainswords which is annoying I agree

It sure is. I don't usually do much kit bashing, but I felt chainswords looked better. If I can do it, I figure anyone that really cares about those old elements can do it as well. Chances are they might even have more bits to pull it off than I did. It would have been nice to just have the chainswords in the first place, but that ship sailed years ago.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
that's a customization, primaris do have a distinct lack of chainswords which is annoying I agree

It sure is. I don't usually do much kit bashing, but I felt chainswords looked better. If I can do it, I figure anyone that really cares about those old elements can do it as well. Chances are they might even have more bits to pull it off than I did. It would have been nice to just have the chainswords in the first place, but that ship sailed years ago.

Yeah, I thought the chainswords looked way better than their combat knives.

 Dr. Mills wrote:
I genuinely thought the switch to stubbers over heavy bolter in my opinion was that you can carry a hell of a lot more stubber rounds than heavy bolter rounds, which are something like 1.00cal which is... Quite large. Even bolsters are. 75cal so stubbers make sense from a suppressive/saturation weapon standpoint.

Marines are supposed to be so good though then they shouldn't need suppressive weapons. You need suppressive fire if you can't be sure of hitting or.killing what you are firing at, but still.wamt to.try and reduce the combat effectiveness of the target unit. Marines are basically supposed to be hitting with every round and therefore degrading enemy effectiveness through kills. Maybe that does only work with infantry weapons.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Perhaps think of it as recon not stealth - after all this is the British army recon armoured vehicle, it is not exactly stealthy...

Yeah but it was fast and small never stealthy there tactics amounted to either drive forward very very slowly in cover and if spotted retreat at high speed or drive forward very very fast and then if seen retreat at high speed. In either case ideally retreating towards the mbt's or something else to hide behind.

Now I admit that may be coloured by my uncles opinions as a driver of a real tank (Challanger) who felt the ponces in the calvary could stick there toy tanks, though he did let the guys in the armoured Corp who drove them slide.

I am aware however of inter service rivalry and do consider the source tainted before anyone with realtives in the cav pipes in.


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 Irbis wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Internal consistency/external consistency. Tonally most Space Marines don't wear camouflage for reasons of ego/pride in their colours/a desire to make sure the enemy sees what kills them, yet now the Imperial Fists (to pick a standout example) have bright yellow stealth robots?

A ) IF are idiots/outlier, not standard, B ) if SM don't wear camouflage, explain this then:





There is actually whole chapter on camouflage in the Codex, yes, some SM like to shoot themselves in the foot, but they are by no means the majority.

I believe in those cases you have stuff from the Baddab war wich was the only cannon account of marines using camo for about 2 decades and by camo I mean orange and black tiger stripes and dazzle style camo until FW's retcon in there Baddab books.

Oh and sorry one from 30k when the imperium was at least slightly competent and FW needed more than a dozen or so paint schemes.

 Ishagu wrote:
The stubbers on Astartes Vehicles are more sophisticated variants, it's worth keeping in mind.

They are Ironhail or Icarus variants.
The AdMech use Cognis variants.

The Guard get the generic crap.

So Cawl managed to make a slightly better .50 cal. Big whoop, it doesn't change the fact that marines have never used them before and even the new hover rhino has storm bolters. The standard turret looks cheap and low tech which is ironic considering this is supposed to be a huge leap forward in tech. Hopefully the missile option looks better.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
It is probably because while the bolter is the iconic weapon the space marine, space marines aren't the only ones that have bolters.

If GW wants to make heavy, storm, hurricane, etc. bolters better or worse for marine vehicles they have to check the rest of IoM inventory to see if the 'Stormhammer Strikelance' Forgeworld tank not sold since 200X tankplane doesn't them as well and would make that obscure model way better than it has any right to be. Fact is a lot of guard vehicles have bolter weapons and IG players would rightfully throw a fit if space marine heavy bolters were better than their exact same bolters.

IF GW makes a brand new kind of gun, well they can create whatever rules they want to go with it and not have to worry about everything else. The only fly in this hypothesis ointment is GW makes the model fires and rules second.

Ummm just name it megahyper cawlimus bolter and stat it how you wish. It's not like they used existing name for stubber. Or as there's no universal rules or stats just stat it how you wish and don't worry about other vehicles. Bespoke rules ftw

 Absolute_Maniac wrote:
Does anyone know the reasoning behind slapping 3-10 heavy stubbers on any new primaris vehicle? The bolter is the iconic marine weapon but never represented in the new models. Even from a crunch perspective storm bolters or a heavier weapon would be a better fit for marines rather than some peashooters.

Rules wise it's likely to keep things from getting too many bolter based rule buffs, lore wise I assume it shows the Mechanicus is churning this stuff so fast that they don't have enough bolters and are using stubbers instead.


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Regarding the Invictus I suspect that it is closer to the original Dreadnought STC than the coffin carrier versions are.

Remember STCSs are repurposed tech from before the Dark Age of Man and wouldn't be made for keeping a corpse alive (that was likely a seperate STC the Emperor or Mechanicus paired up with the Dreadnought in order to keep valuable minds sharp by having them continue to serve in battle while passing down their experiance to younger battle brothers).

So the original frame was likely something like a power loader, and this is a return to that roots.

Thst's just my thoughts on it though.