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 Vankraken wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I don't see a problem as it stands. There's someone on here that plays normal marines adamantly. Plus this new codex is breathing life into everything not just Primaris marines. If Primaris is what's driving you to drop an entire hobby then I don't think this is the hobby for you

I personally dislike Primaris because of the anti consumer business practices that are being used to force people to buy all new products. The whole Primaris fluff and the 180 heel turn in fluff to justify their existance reeks of a marketing lead decision making instead of one made from a creative standpoint. It's honestly somewhat insulting to do the whole "love it or leave it" garbage when people have been invested in the hobby for years and for GW to make major changes that invalidate their efforts. Given the time + money investment that is required for 40k, it's fairly reasonable for people to be unhappy with the changes and voice their displeasure instead of just shoving thousands of dollars + hours of effort into a box and walking away.

Personally I stopped buying from GW because of the paper thin and shallow rule set of 8th more than anything to do with Primaris. I won't buy Primaris because of what it stands for but if the game was actually good (my subjective opinion) then I would continue to buy product lines such as Orks, Tau, Classic Marines, etc.

The implementation of Primaris marines haven't been anti-consumer AT ALL. They introduced new models that are better, sure, but they're only better in terms of sculpt and proportion. Their usefulness in game has not been particularly strong(they're actually pretty crap in game and were WORSE at launch) they haven't discontinued support for any models they produce and the new codex is a massive breath of life for TONS of the older sculpts, especially things like bike units.

Yes, they do eventually intend to phase out oldmarines but they're doing so in a way that isn't actually negatively impacting them or the people who use them(much) and in 10 years when they're fully gone, you'll still be able to use the models as counts as versions of the stuff that's coming out now. The only way you could see this singular particular thing GW is doing as anti-consumer is if you 100% refuse to acknowledge the fact that Primaris marines and oldmarines are part of the SAME ARMY.

GW does a bunch of shady gak but the Primaris marine implementation has gone out of its way to not screw players over. I'm sorry you won't see any more releases of the old chicken legged abominations, but MARINES will be coming out forever.

I'll say I just played a Deathwatch game earlier tonight, to of therm and had some old and new marines. I have to say, was a pleasant experience to be sure. If they keep up with rules and such for old marines with the new stuff I'll be a happy space man, if they think I'm replacing my huge space wolf, Dark Angel and vanilla marine force with primaris though, they'd just be making sure i never buy those books at a certain point.

I only add primairs to my Deathwatch and such it will remain. My old armies will be new guy pure, only oldies.

The new space marine codex pretty much puts to bed for a long while that classic marines are going away. They aren't going to get any new kits in their scale but between the point cuts, new strats, and improved chapter traits it's clear GW is throwing a bone to the originals.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The new space marine codex pretty much puts to bed for a long while that classic marines are going away. They aren't going to get any new kits in their scale but between the point cuts, new strats, and improved chapter traits it's clear GW is throwing a bone to the originals.

I was just thinking this same thing. If GW's plan is to soft-squat minimarines by putting out Primaris units that do their job better, they picked a pretty strange way to go about doing it.

"Hey, you know that Vindicator tank you were complaining about? Would it help if we doubled it's shot output against hard targets?"

"Hey, you know that artillery tank that doesn't really compare very well to the Guard tanks and had a strat that required a Land Speeder to stand in a bad spot? Would it help if we replaced that bad strat with one that just lets you double-tap?"

"Hey, you know how an Impulsor has just enough transport capacity for a min Aggressor squad and Assault Vehicle would be really obnoxious with them? Would it help things look less unbalanced if the Impulsor couldn't carry Aggressors and we added a strat that replicates Assault Vehicle but only for transports with tracks so Aggressors don't break the combo?

"Hey, would another price cut for basic Marines help? What if we threw a big price cut and a new strat for Grav weapons on top of that?"

"Hey, would it help if the Drop Pod that can only carry minimarines could break the normal rule forbidding DS before turn 2?"

There's a lot of stuff in there that benefits minimarines more than Primaris.

This book definitely suggests a change in direction. CA felt like they made their hate for RealMarines clear. This book seems to include what CA should have, in that regard.

I personally find mortal wound mechanic alone a near-deal breaker for old bois. Especially old bois with equipment.

Martel732 wrote:
I personally find mortal wound mechanic alone a near-deal breaker for old bois. Especially old bois with equipment.

Yeah but then, you've been complaining about Marines non-stop for basically five years, minimum, so I think there's a pretty strong possibility that there's literally no pleasing you.

Are you denying that primaris are better vs mortals on the average?

Sounds about right. BA got gak canned in 6th, and GW has never fixed them.

please do not use compound swear words that circumvent the filter -ingtaer.

I haven't felt very enthused about my Classic Marines army project since CA didn't really make any changes to them, but now I'm deffo hyped – seems like the various changes will make them feel a lot more like they ought to in-game.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Are you denying that primaris are better vs mortals on the average?

No, but they're more points and, if it weren't for this, you'd be finding fault with something else, so excuse me if I'm taking your complaints with a pinch of salt.

The Newman wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The new space marine codex pretty much puts to bed for a long while that classic marines are going away. They aren't going to get any new kits in their scale but between the point cuts, new strats, and improved chapter traits it's clear GW is throwing a bone to the originals.

I was just thinking this same thing. If GW's plan is to soft-squat minimarines by putting out Primaris units that do their job better, they picked a pretty strange way to go about doing it.

"Hey, you know that Vindicator tank you were complaining about? Would it help if we doubled it's shot output against hard targets?"

"Hey, you know that artillery tank that doesn't really compare very well to the Guard tanks and had a strat that required a Land Speeder to stand in a bad spot? Would it help if we replaced that bad strat with one that just lets you double-tap?"

"Hey, you know how an Impulsor has just enough transport capacity for a min Aggressor squad and Assault Vehicle would be really obnoxious with them? Would it help things look less unbalanced if the Impulsor couldn't carry Aggressors and we added a strat that replicates Assault Vehicle but only for transports with tracks so Aggressors don't break the combo?

"Hey, would another price cut for basic Marines help? What if we threw a big price cut and a new strat for Grav weapons on top of that?"

"Hey, would it help if the Drop Pod that can only carry minimarines could break the normal rule forbidding DS before turn 2?"

There's a lot of stuff in there that benefits minimarines more than Primaris.

Nothing strange about it. Best way for GW to clear outstanding stock is to give it great rules, but not restock the old stuff when it runs out. But maybe I’m giving GW too much credit for thinking ahead.

balmong7 wrote:
I genuinely don't understand the primaris hate.

I like some of the fluff. especially the sort of Empire the Imperium is. And the history of it being this way due to the big space marine civil war. Mixed into that was a decaying tech base and fundamentally the same sorts of marines being around 'today' as 9,000 years ago.

A massive tech upgrade and re-engineering buff, that furthermore goes against what was considered sacred from the _God_ Emperor is very incongruous. Its jarring set against what 40k always was, and its jarring not for a great fluff reason, but to re-sell models. And even if you want to do that, and that's fine, get rid of the silly stuff like normal marines can't use their vehicles or primaris can't fit inside land Raiders etc. as that further damages the suspension of disbelief.

Plus the general scale jump for humans (check out Necro people sizes and lots of the AoS stuff) isn't helping...

Even gods fade in the face of necessity.

Primaris hate is perfectly understandable. Primaris makes people feel like they wasted money on non primaris stuff. GW doesn't care because you will end up buying primaris or something else or you probably weren't going to buy much anyways. You should write angry letters to GW. I'm sure they will listen to your cries if you don't like primaris.

Under the old CEO and GW never talking to their customers or offering decent deals like start collecting, regular GW was in decline. With 40k 6th and 7th having rules bloat issues, and prices between regular GW and Forgeworld closing, 30k became super popular.

When the new CEO wanted to right the ship, they didn't know what would work so they tried everything. They started talking to their customers again, doing marketing, using the internet and then they took what they thought was working about 30k and applied it to 40k. Primarchs return, new single weapon marine squads like in 30k.

I'm of the belief that they didn't need to push 30k stuff into 40k. That the change in business practicies would have been enough. The Primaris kits could have simply been up scaled marines and a new edition with a new codex could have meant that all marines just become 2 wounds and 2 attacks. The new kits are bigger, you can use your old marines if you want. Primaris sized Tactical, Assault and Devestator kits along with some characters at launch.

Nazrak wrote:I haven't felt very enthused about my Classic Marines army project since CA didn't really make any changes to them, but now I'm deffo hyped – seems like the various changes will make them feel a lot more like they ought to in-game.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Are you denying that primaris are better vs mortals on the average?

No, but they're more points and, if it weren't for this, you'd be finding fault with something else, so excuse me if I'm taking your complaints with a mountain of salt.

Fixed it for you.

It's amazing, it's like GW listened to the customer base. Astartes aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

I'm glad that Astartes got the boonstick. Can't wait to try out the new Salamanders rules alongside the doctrines.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
And end my suffering and complete of hatred of all things primaris? Anyone else really fed up with this life support they have left classic marines with? I just want them to be phased out so I can drop the army already rather then be led along. To be god honest I'm about ready to drop this hobby, or at least anything to do with marines with how bad of a taste primaris has left on me.

General rant I guess

Primaris Marines are the stupidest thing I've heard in 40k since the Blood Angel/Necron bromance. I've had a lot of fun with 40k over the years, so I follow developments for nostalgia, but I'm glad I don't play it anymore.

I'm liking the primaris line much better after they added a wound to gravis. That was my point.

I have plenty of experience with expensive little bois from DC.


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LeperColony wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
And end my suffering and complete of hatred of all things primaris? Anyone else really fed up with this life support they have left classic marines with? I just want them to be phased out so I can drop the army already rather then be led along. To be god honest I'm about ready to drop this hobby, or at least anything to do with marines with how bad of a taste primaris has left on me.

General rant I guess

Primaris Marines are the stupidest thing I've heard in 40k since the Blood Angel/Necron bromance. I've had a lot of fun with 40k over the years, so I follow developments for nostalgia, but I'm glad I don't play it anymore.

They're not any stupider than any of the other stupid crap GW has written in the past.

 frozenwastes wrote:


I'm of the belief that they didn't need to push 30k stuff into 40k. That the change in business practicies would have been enough. The Primaris kits could have simply been up scaled marines and a new edition with a new codex could have meant that all marines just become 2 wounds and 2 attacks. The new kits are bigger, you can use your old marines if you want. Primaris sized Tactical, Assault and Devestator kits along with some characters at launch.

I’m of the opinion that Primaris models were Kirby’s idea, and I think originally the intent was that they would straight-up be replacements for the models. However, while the tooling and molds were probably put together while under Kirby’s reign, Roundtree was put in charge before the time of their release and new management realized the fiasco they would have on hand if they went through with a new edition + marine replacement. I have no information to verify all this, but I strongly suspect they were changed from a replacement release to a supplemental release that would eventually replace old marines. Surely, someone in the company realized replacing the line with an incomplete model line wasn’t going to win them any fans.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
And end my suffering and complete of hatred of all things primaris? Anyone else really fed up with this life support they have left classic marines with? I just want them to be phased out so I can drop the army already rather then be led along. To be god honest I'm about ready to drop this hobby, or at least anything to do with marines with how bad of a taste primaris has left on me.

General rant I guess

How nice of you to want to make it impossible for players to collect armies for say armageddon campaign just so that you don't have to watch rules and models in shop that you don't have to buy or use if you don't wish.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Repulsor points hate is perfectly understandable. Repulsor points makes people feel like they wasted money on Repulsor stuff. GW doesn't care because you will end up buying primaris or something else or you probably weren't going to buy much anyways. You should write angry letters to GW. I'm sure they will listen to your cries if you don't like Repulsor points.

FTFY

Accidental post! Sorry!

 Nazrak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I personally find mortal wound mechanic alone a near-deal breaker for old bois. Especially old bois with equipment.

Yeah but then, you've been complaining about Marines non-stop for basically five years, minimum, so I think there's a pretty strong possibility that there's literally no pleasing you.

Marines have literally never been good without gladius which is a period in the game which should really just be forgotten?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Repulsor points hate is perfectly understandable. Repulsor points makes people feel like they wasted money on Repulsor stuff. GW doesn't care because you will end up buying primaris or something else or you probably weren't going to buy much anyways. You should write angry letters to GW. I'm sure they will listen to your cries if you don't like Repulsor points.

FTFY

Did you know they actually dropped the price of repuslors in a CA and released the executioner with it's points being 40 points cheaper and 2 weeks later spiked it 40 points? Then raised repuslors points by 30 in this codex? That is a vile marketing strategy to get you to buy new stuff. It should be called out by EVERYONE at every available opportunity. Touché though - I wasn't really referring to this because I actually like primaris. It's not actually appliciable ether because its not like old marine stuff is any worse than primaris stuff. In most cases the old marine stuff is actually the better choice.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I personally find mortal wound mechanic alone a near-deal breaker for old bois. Especially old bois with equipment.

Yeah but then, you've been complaining about Marines non-stop for basically five years, minimum, so I think there's a pretty strong possibility that there's literally no pleasing you.

Marines have literally never been good without gladius which is a period in the game which should really just be forgotten?

4th edition would like a word with you. Marines (power armor in general really) were awful to play against in 4th because the Ap system was all or nothing, if your Ap didn't beat a 3+ you might as well have been throwing tennis balls at them.

Not sure if it was mentioned but didn't they change the name form Codex adeptus astrates (Which I associated with primaris when I got back to the hobby this year as before it was always space marines) to Codex: Space Marines?

I think normarines are not going anywhere soon after all. But OP could just start playing adifferent army or keep playing his army.

They didn't go full WHFB on yer ass so theres that..

adeptus astartes is always the high gothic name for space marines.

 Xenomancers wrote:
That is a vile marketing strategy to get you to buy new stuff.

Oh. My. fething. God.

This is the most paranoid delusional gak and I'm so tired of it.

I believe they figured that the Repulsor/Executioner would be too good with the addition of chapter tactics and doctrines (remember, it has a ton of weapons that will now be -1AP). Most normal marine vehicles don't carry the same amount of firepower that the new primaris tanks do.
However, I do feel the jump was premature. Let it play for awhile, and if then broken, raise points in CA later this year (although we now know that CA is written with how the meta has been in the first half of the year, not the second).

Certainly not a marketing ploy otherwise redemptors would have gone back up too, so stop with the silliness.

I think GW is terrified of primaris units being brokenly good for fear of stoking fears of the death of old marines.

BrianDavion wrote:
I think GW is terrified of primaris units being brokenly good for fear of stoking fears of the death of old marines.

This makes the most sense.

I don't know, until we see how the FAQs roll out we can't tell. As I need to see how other marines will grow from these changes. As raising the cost of things without all this new stuff to use with them seems like a royally dumb idea. As there is no reason a BA, SW or DA or DW repulsor should cost more. The standard marine dex one does benefit from chapter tactics, the other books not.

As well need to see how the doctrines go, as without access to those I still don't see how they'd be worthy of a point hike. I'd like to think GW won't be so lazy just to copy past, but it is GW we are talking about here.