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You can assume all of that, it never mentions him being a scout or what armor at all he dons, nor does it say what he gets and when. It just phrases it as he gets everything, and takes time for it to mature then begins to mention joining the reivers, etc etc to the other phobos bands.

His entire scout process, if he even is a scout at all mind, is like a paragraph, nor does it go into any kind of detail of this scout process other than to mention a blurb or where he went.

You can like the new stuff all you want, but it does gloss over a lot and make them very generic super soldiers ala any sci fi reference where as the old fluff, to me, felt better. Showed easily the good transitions and just made more sense in its way.

Though, assuming you are correct, you'd think they actually talked about scouts more for primaris as they'd still be needed and used in the line if they are in active combat roles still. The phobos marines aren't actually replacing them at all making the whole debate about which is better scouts or vanguard marines pointless as they are still different things and not one replacing another at all.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
You can assume all of that, it never mentions him being a scout or what armor at all he dons, nor does it say what he gets and when. It just phrases it as he gets everything, and takes time for it to mature then begins to mention joining the reivers, etc etc to the other phobos bands.

His entire scout process, if he even is a scout at all mind, is like a paragraph, nor does it go into any kind of detail of this scout process other than to mention a blurb or where he went.

You can like the new stuff all you want, but it does gloss over a lot and make them very generic super soldiers ala any sci fi reference where as the old fluff, to me, felt better. Showed easily the good transitions and just made more sense in its way.

Though, assuming you are correct, you'd think they actually talked about scouts more for primaris as they'd still be needed and used in the line if they are in active combat roles still. The phobos marines aren't actually replacing them at all making the whole debate about which is better scouts or vanguard marines pointless as they are still different things and not one replacing another at all.

Try that again after rereading it:

10th Company
Soon began Gaius Pollandus’ true testing. Implanted with cultured gene-seed organs and subjected to endless rounds of physical and mental conditioning, psych-indoctrination and spiritual assessment, he endured long months of forging of war. Joining the 10th Company as a neophyte Ultramarine….
[a fair bit of the next paragraph later describing his first and second missions]...By this point, the neophyte’s body had accepted his gene-seed, and all of his organs….

The first two paragraphs of the 10th company are about his time as a scout before he became a Reiver. I handed the lore to you on a platter and you still didn't read it completely before complaining about it.
EDIT: And it's worth noting that for OLD Marines they were scouts until they were given a Black Carapace then shunted off to the Devastators. As a Primaris they stay in the 10th company even longer to ensure they're ready before they're put into one of the reserve companies for more training and tempering before they get to be put into a Battle Company.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
You can assume all of that, it never mentions him being a scout

"Joining the 10th Company as a neophyte Ultramarine..."

He was a Scout. Scouts are referred to as Neophytes, because they're not full Space Marines yet.

nor does it say what he gets and when. It just phrases it as he gets everything, and takes time for it to mature then begins to mention joining the reivers, etc etc to the other phobos bands.

Sorry, but just because it doesn't say "he gets SCOUT ARMOUR and a BOLTER and FRAG GRENADES" doesn't mean he doesn't.

What we are told is that he serves as a Neophyte (a Scout), serves in two long campaigns that see his body accept his implants - naturally, he wouldn't be sent into battle naked of equipment, so it's pretty clear that he served as a Scout, with Scout equipment, during this time.

His entire scout process, if he even is a scout at all mind, is like a paragraph, nor does it go into any kind of detail of this scout process other than to mention a blurb or where he went.

Just because this is not fleshed out doesn't mean it doesn't happen. We see where it's mentioned. We don't need to know every last detail about it, because you can just look over the 25+ years of lore about Scouts. That is unchanged. The only thing that *has* changed is where he goes afterwards.

Though, assuming you are correct, you'd think they actually talked about scouts more for primaris as they'd still be needed and used in the line if they are in active combat roles still. The phobos marines aren't actually replacing them at all making the whole debate about which is better scouts or vanguard marines pointless as they are still different things and not one replacing another at all.

I'd also assume that we'd see more about if there's any kind of deviation in the Primaris 1st Company, like the normal marines. But we'll have to wait and see for that.

However, this excerpt has been giving us data we didn't actually know before - namely that, yes, Primaris DO use Scouts, and now we have a rough idea of the progression between ranks, unless Pollandus had an exceptionally unusual rise in rank.

Basically, we have enough data now to work with logically. Yes, there's some patchy spots, but we can wait for that. I personally like how we're seeing the Primaris Marines evolve and gradually form up.

Ok, then scouts aren't at all being replaced by phobos, as phobos units aren't scouts. So at least one bit of the old marine line should always remain if they still have scouts. Correct ?

Which if we go all the way back, it was said phobos was a replacement, when they aren't. Point 1.

Point 2, I still like the old process of marine growth as opposed to this new process which still feels to me , bland and generic and lacks, to me, the same depth that old marines had. Which none of this changes my mind on that matter.

Yes though, digging into it and hashing it out here though is informative, I'll agree with that and hopefully others do take as much out of it as I have.

So I'd say primaris have are deeper than I believed starting out, still feels a bit soft to me and maybe, over a lot of time that will work its way out so my opinion may in time change on that matter. For now though, old marines, all the way as far as feeling deeper to me, but then I'd imagine they should having decades of lore behind them.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Ok, then scouts aren't at all being replaced by phobos, as phobos units aren't scouts. So at least one bit of the old marine line should always remain if they still have scouts. Correct ?

Which if we go all the way back, it was said phobos was a replacement, when they aren't. Point 1.

Point 2, I still like the old process of marine growth as opposed to this new process which still feels to me , bland and generic and lacks, to me, the same depth that old marines had. Which none of this changes my mind on that matter.

Yes though, digging into it and hashing it out here though is informative, I'll agree with that and hopefully others do take as much out of it as I have.

So I'd say primaris have are deeper than I believed starting out, still feels a bit soft to me and maybe, over a lot of time that will work its way out so my opinion may in time change on that matter. For now though, old marines, all the way as far as feeling deeper to me, but then I'd imagine they should having decades of lore behind them.

Phobos likely will be the long term replacement for Scouts since the longer training program Primaris follow (Scout then Phobos) means the combat role of the Scout will likely be stripped away in the future allowing chapters to use the implantation process to focus on training and testing aspirants more carefully meaning more become full-fledged Astartes.

Scout>Devastator>Assault>Tactical>Vet>Command isn't exactly a lot of depth, but you do you.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Ok, then scouts aren't at all being replaced by phobos, as phobos units aren't scouts. So at least one bit of the old marine line should always remain if they still have scouts. Correct ?

Not quite. Phobos and Scouts both fill the "recon and stealth engagement" roles, but Phobos is treated as a wargear choice for fully promoted Marines. Scouts are treated as such due to their lack of experience and squishier nature.

So, whilst they fill the same function, they're not replacements for eachother.

An example for this might be Conscripts and Infantry Squads. Both fill the whole "hold the line with a wall of bodies" role, but Conscripts are untrained, Guardsmen are.

Which if we go all the way back, it was said phobos was a replacement, when they aren't. Point 1.

Yes, this is true. They're an alternative for battlefield function, but on a strategic and logistical level, they're not the same unit at all.

Point 2, I still like the old process of marine growth as opposed to this new process which still feels to me , bland and generic and lacks, to me, the same depth that old marines had. Which none of this changes my mind on that matter.

I don't understand what the old process has that the new one also doesn't.
Could you elaborate on what exactly it is that's different?

having decades of lore behind them.

I think that's a big factor. People seem to be having a kneejerk reaction to Primaris because they're not just upscaled identical versions of their current collections, where in reality, Primaris lore refers and draws far more from Space Marine aesthetic, lore, and design than the immediate "they're nu and different" reaction belies.

As your own reaction to the actual Primaris rank progression and other people's reactions to hearing about how Repulsors actually work prove, there's more to Primaris than "they start off as super soldiers instantly with elegant and fancy grav-tech!"


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AngryAngel80 wrote:
The very story though has it phobos can't be a replacement for something they are a step above.

Likely doesn't factor into it, unless they eventually cut the scout out entirely and they jump right into the reiver or they actually make a new scout like kit that is an actual scout replacement.


If they just jump right outta the scout process that will go a way to making my point in the long run of bland, for now though, they feel alright.

As it currently seems, it is Scout > Phobos > Tacticus = Gravis. Basically, after graduating from Scout to Phobos, you can then switch out between all types of Primaris armour type as you're required to.

The very story though has it phobos can't be a replacement for something they are a step above.

Likely doesn't factor into it, unless they eventually cut the scout out entirely and they jump right into the reiver or they actually make a new scout like kit that is an actual scout replacement.


If they just jump right outta the scout process that will go a way to making my point in the long run of bland, for now though, they feel alright.

As well, thanks so much for letting me be me, I appreciate it you can as well be you.

It isn't so much a factor that people have a kneejerk reaction to hate on primaris, as I said, I don't hate them, I just like old marines more. Now there is something of a definite reaction where people who love primairs have to jump on anyone who dislikes anything about them, which is always going to bring some conflict.

Most of the primaris hate isn't even in their creation, its the not knowing. Many like their old marines, and old fluff, and don't want their loved armies pooped all over for the coming of the new age. Then they say they aren't a fan, and jumped on. This happens both sides of the aisle and really it doesn't need to if we just knew what the actual F was going to be the long term plan.

Like if we knew primaris were just going to forever be alongside the old guard, I doubt primaris would be nearly as hated on.

I actually don't mind the anti grav tech stuff, it feels different than old marine stuff but whatever, it is what it is.

I just appreciate the old lore more so, not really a whole lot more to say on it than that. It feels better to me, has more resonance. Like a favorite movie. I like the layers in scout training primarily, I'm love scouts, primaris don't really talk much on it and instead get down with being tacticool in phobos. So for me, that isn't very cool.

I can appreciate some just don't care, and that's cool too, but I do. Which is why I hoped on to the phobos are a scout replacement, which they aren't, so I'm content now.

I'd even say, if they both hold true to being side by side lines, I'd actually love primaris as their inclusion would alongside old marines add a nice difference in design and history you could mix and match from. Like running the historical old guard, with the new age side by side. If that proves to be the direction it's going, I bet much of the hate will be gone, it'll just be some who will always stick with the old core, and some who will gladly splurge into the primaris.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

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 Insectum7 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Minor changes happen all the time. Major changes happen rather infrequently. The state of Uriah Jacobus is decidedly less important/relevant than major changes to the most popular faction of the game.

That should be followed with a 'duh'.

Importance is relative to the person reading it, duh.

Im afraid it cant be waved away that easily, but nice try. Faction-wide patterns repeated consistently for 25 years have more conceptual inertia than a single model whose rules are seldom updated.

You waived it off with the same tone, so I was merely returning the favor.

there's a real point there though. Are you going to address it?

And take a step back from comparing a Phobos Marine to a Tactical and compare it to the unit it's replacing, the Scout, and take a good look at the elements they share and tell me which one looks more like a Marine. And be honest about it.

Weird question, as Scouts look more like Scouts, which is what they're supposed to look like.

Why should I bother answering your points when you clearly ignore mine?

I'm sorry, what point was that? Did you make one? Not a joke question.

You seem to be saying that the death and rebirth of Uriah Jacobus was equally as important to the almost unchanging 25 year history of core Space Marine lore.

Dude, Uriah Jacobs is a big deal.

Jacobus was a small example of how they change or roll back lore every edition. I'm hardly going to make an itemized list of every change the game got in the last 25 years just to prove that things change and Marines aren't special.

When they first introduced the Necrons the whole Eldar ancient history got heavily retconned. And then later they famously retconned the Necrons themselves.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Jacobus was a small example of how they change or roll back lore every edition. I'm hardly going to make an itemized list of every change the game got in the last 25 years just to prove that things change and Marines aren't special.

Okay. . . But my point in response is that there is a difference between minor changes, and major changes. And major changes are infrequent.

Plus:

 Crimson wrote:
When they first introduced the Necrons the whole Eldar ancient history got heavily retconned. And then later they famously retconned the Necrons themselves.

The Necrons being introduced changed nothing about the Eldar as an army, and barely affected it from a faction-lore standpoint. 95% of Eldar fiction didn't change. Iirc, the only thing that changed for Eldar was effectively the subject matter of myth and legend millions of years prior. If someone wants to correct me on this I'm all ears, but my recollection of the Eldar fan-rage at the time was more about the Necrons having a higher tech level.

The Eldar didn't get their army swapped out or units changed or anything. I believe all changes were entirely in the distant background.

As I recall it that is the case with the eldar fluff change from Necrons. That said, I kind of liked the old Necron fluff a bit more, felt more tragic somehow.

The new fluff feels too much like tomb kings in space. I also liked the C'tans being more powerful as opposed to smacked down by the necrons and enslaved as shards.

Just personal taste really on that.

I think I posted on another thread a better implemenetation would to be making Primaris rarer in chapters as more of the modern 'elite' of the chapter. Maybe something happens and they realize "Wait we cannot make space marines like this it is wasteful."

So instead the go through the following process :

Start as a Scout - Become a Vet then become a Space marine in either the Devastator, Assault or Tactical, after graduating they become a Primaris Marine after the specialization into a either a Support, Phobos, or Intercessor.

Some may refuse if they cannot survive the process to become a Primaris and may stay as a commander. Risker? yes? More storied? Yes. it would also allow people to keep their old marines but some of their range is quelled and decreased in size.

You want major changes? 13th Black Crusade was a big change.

So was splitting all the legions into in-fighting warbands.

So was removing Chaos Undivided for anyone who isn't Belakor or Abbadon (still don't know how they plan to fix that one).

Grey Knight geneseed is now an amalgamation of sources and not the Emperor's prized creation based off his own genetic code.

Speaking of Grey Knights: Bloodtide was retgone post 5th edition .

You scrape off that veneer of overall continuity and there have been a lot of changes to core parts of the lore over the years.


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 Asherian Command wrote:
I think I posted on another thread a better implemenetation would to be making Primaris rarer in chapters as more of the modern 'elite' of the chapter. Maybe something happens and they realize "Wait we cannot make space marines like this it is wasteful."

So instead the go through the following process :

Start as a Scout - Become a Vet then become a Space marine in either the Devastator, Assault or Tactical, after graduating they become a Primaris Marine after the specialization into a either a Support, Phobos, or Intercessor.

Some may refuse if they cannot survive the process to become a Primaris and may stay as a commander. Risker? yes? More storied? Yes. it would also allow people to keep their old marines but some of their range is quelled and decreased in size.

Doesn't make sense to potentially lose a commanding offixer of hundreds of years of experiance to the Rubricon when Joe Snuffy scout will do just as well.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You want major changes? 13th Black Crusade was a big change.

So was splitting all the legions into in-fighting warbands.

So was removing Chaos Undivided for anyone who isn't Belakor or Abbadon (still don't know how they plan to fix that one).

Grey Knight geneseed is now an amalgamation of sources and not the Emperor's prized creation based off his own genetic code.

Speaking of Grey Knights: Bloodtide was retgone post 5th edition .

You scrape off that veneer of overall continuity and there have been a lot of changes to core parts of the lore over the years.

Which is fine, its evolving and I like the Primaris Evolution, its probably one of the best renovations of space marines in a while. Though I still don't like its implementation IE "EVERYONE USES PRIMARIS!"

Or the books written about the Primaris are all written like as if they are children : IE War of Secrets and Dark Imperium book 1 and 2.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:
I think I posted on another thread a better implemenetation would to be making Primaris rarer in chapters as more of the modern 'elite' of the chapter. Maybe something happens and they realize "Wait we cannot make space marines like this it is wasteful."

So instead the go through the following process :

Start as a Scout - Become a Vet then become a Space marine in either the Devastator, Assault or Tactical, after graduating they become a Primaris Marine after the specialization into a either a Support, Phobos, or Intercessor.

Some may refuse if they cannot survive the process to become a Primaris and may stay as a commander. Risker? yes? More storied? Yes. it would also allow people to keep their old marines but some of their range is quelled and decreased in size.

Doesn't make sense to potentially lose a commanding offixer of hundreds of years of experiance to the Rubricon when Joe Snuffy scout will do just as well.

That is if the process does not become easier? We know for sure that primaris will only become a mere evolution not getting rid of the entire minimarine line up as that would be entirely stupid, it could be that primaris become more of the elite of the chapter.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Grey Knight geneseed is now an amalgamation of sources and not the Emperor's prized creation based off his own genetic code.

That's how it originally was until Ward spank version of the codex changed it. Thankfully they changed it back.

Oh, and as an Eldar player at the time of introducing Necrons I certainly didn't consider the changes minor. Their ancient history and mythic cycles are very vital to their lore.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I think I posted on another thread a better implemenetation would to be making Primaris rarer in chapters as more of the modern 'elite' of the chapter. Maybe something happens and they realize "Wait we cannot make space marines like this it is wasteful."

So instead the go through the following process :

Start as a Scout - Become a Vet then become a Space marine in either the Devastator, Assault or Tactical, after graduating they become a Primaris Marine after the specialization into a either a Support, Phobos, or Intercessor.

Some may refuse if they cannot survive the process to become a Primaris and may stay as a commander. Risker? yes? More storied? Yes. it would also allow people to keep their old marines but some of their range is quelled and decreased in size.

I would love that, and be kind of around what I'd feel the ideal to be. expansions and not just " We R betterz ! ". I like it. A reasonable implementation and it still lets players run their old marines as they didn't need to implement them yet, or all the primaris as the old guard may have died off or upgraded and of course the most traditional the mix of old and new as forces in flux and growth which seems reasonable, as my Deathwatch are.

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Grey Knight geneseed is now an amalgamation of sources and not the Emperor's prized creation based off his own genetic code.

That's how it originally was until Ward spank version of the codex changed it. Thankfully they changed it back.

Indeed. I mean it was implied that something else was at work with the geneseed of the grey knights more than "It was from the emperor."

Because technically all geneseed comes from the emperor. But I think the changes so far to the imperium have be great outside of the Primaris Implementation of the company structure.

Honestly company structure should be :

First company - Vets
Second Company - Vanguard Company Vets
Third - Sixth Companies - 3 Main Battleline Companies
Seven to Eleventh Companies - Reserve Companies 2 - Troops based, 1 Assault Base, 1 Devastator
Twelveth Company - Neophytes / Recruits Company - Size Varies intensely

Twelve companies would make sense for several reasons as maybe the eleventh and twelveth have varying forces. I see the Phobos and Vanguard units as more a supplementary force sort of like the Veterans of the First Company. Instead spread through out the entirety of the Chapter. Those who specialize in recon and battle can become a vanguard vet. Instead of Vanguards being a 'scout'.

Allowing that evolution from Scout to Intercessor to stick around and be more interesting and 'characterful'.

I know in my fanon chapter I wrote it so each company is essentially split in half into demicompanies and each is entirely autonomous electing to work with other companies and seeing to their own recruitment so Demicompany of 50 would have various neophytes and scouts with them to supplement or replace their numbers on the field if need be. (Sorta like the real military in organizational tactics!)

 Asherian Command wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You want major changes? 13th Black Crusade was a big change.

So was splitting all the legions into in-fighting warbands.

So was removing Chaos Undivided for anyone who isn't Belakor or Abbadon (still don't know how they plan to fix that one).

Grey Knight geneseed is now an amalgamation of sources and not the Emperor's prized creation based off his own genetic code.

Speaking of Grey Knights: Bloodtide was retgone post 5th edition .

You scrape off that veneer of overall continuity and there have been a lot of changes to core parts of the lore over the years.

Which is fine, its evolving and I like the Primaris Evolution, its probably one of the best renovations of space marines in a while. Though I still don't like its implementation IE "EVERYONE USES PRIMARIS!"

Or the books written about the Primaris are all written like as if they are children : IE War of Secrets and Dark Imperium book 1 and 2.

If you had to fight an eternal war and were given the chance to be bigger, stronger and tougher while leading bigger, stronger and tougher troops you'd take it right?

Cause I know I sure the heck would.

I've said it before, sure a civil war over Primaris is more interesting at first, but when you consider the actual state of the Imperium it's a bad plot with pointless conflict.

The Imperium lost a large number of chapters to the rift and 13th Black Crusade (not to mention those likely lost forever when the Astronomicon was turned off). Humanity was losing on nearly every front and on the verge of total collapse.

Guilliman then met with the Emperor who spent the last 10k years making a plan to finally turn the tables in the Great Game with Chaos. Considering the Emperor he likely knew of the Primaris, or was told that an upgraded version of his beta build was ready for use. I can't see the Big E saying no to this chance to have one of his best game peices on the board backed by reinforcements.

So Guilliman rolls out the reinforcements for the broken chapters, bringing hope where there was none, and establishing new chapters to replace the ones lost. This takes -two hundred- years, a crusade the largest the galaxy has seen since M30 and the help of every Custodes and tech priest Guilliman can get his hands on and it's still not enough. Some chapters don't have gene-brethren ready and have to rebuild from their own genestock and use the Runricon to upgrade what's left.

But even the most apprehensive takes them because the Imperium is dying faster than ever and duty calls for every hand that can hold a bolter. Duty is more important than anything as an Astartes and an Astartes who fails to uphold his duty is no better than a traitor.

At least that's been my take away on this. A civil war would have killed an already dying Imperium even faster and only by putting their duty to the Emperor can any Astartes hope to overcome the foes of man.

In any other time a civil war would definitely happen, but with the Imperium about to go down like a boxer who took one too many to the chin it was the only way to stay upright and fighting.

Since then the Primaris have proven themselves countless times and the only thing slowing down their inclusion to some chapters are secrets the chapter holds that they fear will have them labelled traitor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Grey Knight geneseed is now an amalgamation of sources and not the Emperor's prized creation based off his own genetic code.

That's how it originally was until Ward spank version of the codex changed it. Thankfully they changed it back.

Oh, and as an Eldar player at the time of introducing Necrons I certainly didn't consider the changes minor. Their ancient history and mythic cycles are very vital to their lore.

Emperor's Gift made it canon, the Horus Heresy made that in-canon.

AngryAngel80 wrote:


While the phobos might be replacing scouts, it has none of the flavor or even the feel of the model it's replacing at all. The whole primaris line in fact has virtually no soul, they feel like just add water, ready to battle super soldiers that are just there. Marines, you have a clear path of experience and build up, even the different set ups of the scouts told stories of their levels of experience and personal growth. Going from sniper scouts, to ones with bolters, to shotguns and CCW armed scouts, to being mounted one a speeder storm to having scout bikes.

These phobos marines, have no such story, they are all bad ass supermans sprung straight from the tube ready to rock, no growth, no feeling, no soul really just completely expendable super men, like Sigmarines. Which is probably what they are going for but it's a definite loss of character into bland, run of the mill sci fi supermen, hell even Master Chief from Halo has more riveting backstory.

Now, if you don't mind that loss of flavor and feel, that's completely fine, but some do lament how bland these numarines feel. So they may be lovely to look at, but they have no depth of character.

I guess it is good Gaius Pollandus is no more. This post would have probably made him quite sad.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You want major changes? 13th Black Crusade was a big change.

So was splitting all the legions into in-fighting warbands.

So was removing Chaos Undivided for anyone who isn't Belakor or Abbadon (still don't know how they plan to fix that one).

Grey Knight geneseed is now an amalgamation of sources and not the Emperor's prized creation based off his own genetic code.

Speaking of Grey Knights: Bloodtide was retgone post 5th edition .

You scrape off that veneer of overall continuity and there have been a lot of changes to core parts of the lore over the years.

Which is fine, its evolving and I like the Primaris Evolution, its probably one of the best renovations of space marines in a while. Though I still don't like its implementation IE "EVERYONE USES PRIMARIS!"

Or the books written about the Primaris are all written like as if they are children : IE War of Secrets and Dark Imperium book 1 and 2.

If you had to fight an eternal war and were given the chance to be bigger, stronger and tougher while leading bigger, stronger and tougher troops you'd take it right?

Cause I know I sure the heck would.

I've said it before, sure a civil war over Primaris is more interesting at first, but when you consider the actual state of the Imperium it's a bad plot with pointless conflict.

The Imperium lost a large number of chapters to the rift and 13th Black Crusade (not to mention those likely lost forever when the Astronomicon was turned off). Humanity was losing on nearly every front and on the verge of total collapse.

Guilliman then met with the Emperor who spent the last 10k years making a plan to finally turn the tables in the Great Game with Chaos. Considering the Emperor he likely knew of the Primaris, or was told that an upgraded version of his beta build was ready for use. I can't see the Big E saying no to this chance to have one of his best game peices on the board backed by reinforcements.

So Guilliman rolls out the reinforcements for the broken chapters, bringing hope where there was none, and establishing new chapters to replace the ones lost. This takes -two hundred- years, a crusade the largest the galaxy has seen since M30 and the help of every Custodes and tech priest Guilliman can get his hands on and it's still not enough. Some chapters don't have gene-brethren ready and have to rebuild from their own genestock and use the Runricon to upgrade what's left.

But even the most apprehensive takes them because the Imperium is dying faster than ever and duty calls for every hand that can hold a bolter. Duty is more important than anything as an Astartes and an Astartes who fails to uphold his duty is no better than a traitor.

At least that's been my take away on this. A civil war would have killed an already dying Imperium even faster and only by putting their duty to the Emperor can any Astartes hope to overcome the foes of man.

In any other time a civil war would definitely happen, but with the Imperium about to go down like a boxer who took one too many to the chin it was the only way to stay upright and fighting.

Since then the Primaris have proven themselves countless times and the only thing slowing down their inclusion to some chapters are secrets the chapter holds that they fear will have them labelled traitor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Grey Knight geneseed is now an amalgamation of sources and not the Emperor's prized creation based off his own genetic code.

That's how it originally was until Ward spank version of the codex changed it. Thankfully they changed it back.

Oh, and as an Eldar player at the time of introducing Necrons I certainly didn't consider the changes minor. Their ancient history and mythic cycles are very vital to their lore.

Emperor's Gift made it canon, the Horus Heresy made that in-canon.

I don't think a civil war would be interesting, I just said certain chapters would be deeply mistrustful of primaris to the point of frevor even if the Custodes said "Here use this" I don't think some would elect to just based on tradition.

Tradition is very hard thing to break and some chapters would rebuke such efforts.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:


While the phobos might be replacing scouts, it has none of the flavor or even the feel of the model it's replacing at all. The whole primaris line in fact has virtually no soul, they feel like just add water, ready to battle super soldiers that are just there. Marines, you have a clear path of experience and build up, even the different set ups of the scouts told stories of their levels of experience and personal growth. Going from sniper scouts, to ones with bolters, to shotguns and CCW armed scouts, to being mounted one a speeder storm to having scout bikes.

These phobos marines, have no such story, they are all bad ass supermans sprung straight from the tube ready to rock, no growth, no feeling, no soul really just completely expendable super men, like Sigmarines. Which is probably what they are going for but it's a definite loss of character into bland, run of the mill sci fi supermen, hell even Master Chief from Halo has more riveting backstory.

Now, if you don't mind that loss of flavor and feel, that's completely fine, but some do lament how bland these numarines feel. So they may be lovely to look at, but they have no depth of character.

I guess it is good Gaius Pollandus is no more. This post would have probably made him quite sad.

Yeah, good thing indeed, sorry Gaius.... " No actual Gaius was harmed in the making of this post. "

People really should try reading the codex.

It literally addresses some of the complaints, in detail.

There are three 'types' of Primaris:
The Awoken(those who were the 'originals' that Cawl made) who were basically indoctrinated into serving as one thing(Aggressors, Reivers, Inceptors, or Intercessors) and had never been indoctrinated/brought up in Chapter traditions. There were a lot of the Awoken, they basically swelled up Chapters right off the bat.

The Indoctrinated(the 'new crop' of Primaris), Neophytes ascended into the ranks of the Primaris. They're growing up in the Chapters, indoctrinated into their ways and traditions. Not all Chapters are allowing for this to happen though--Space Wolves and Dark Angels are explicitly called out.

The Ascended(the old Marines being granted the Cawl upgrades). There's some debate between Calgar or Khan being the first of the Ascended.

Well then, the awoken are bland lamers. The indoctrinated are ok, at least they have some substance, though good on the wolves and DA for hating on them anyways, good job lads. The ascended are alright, same as the old with some slight bigger stats and stature.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You want major changes? 13th Black Crusade was a big change.

So was splitting all the legions into in-fighting warbands.

So was removing Chaos Undivided for anyone who isn't Belakor or Abbadon (still don't know how they plan to fix that one).

Grey Knight geneseed is now an amalgamation of sources and not the Emperor's prized creation based off his own genetic code.

Speaking of Grey Knights: Bloodtide was retgone post 5th edition .

None of those really changed an army though, with the exception of no more Undivided Daemon Princes, yes?

As for Grey Knights, I'm not surprised there might be some lore adjustments after the 5th Ed book.

I believe Chaos Legions have always been infighting warbands.

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Grey Knight geneseed is now an amalgamation of sources and not the Emperor's prized creation based off his own genetic code.

That's how it originally was until Ward spank version of the codex changed it. Thankfully they changed it back.

Oh, and as an Eldar player at the time of introducing Necrons I certainly didn't consider the changes minor. Their ancient history and mythic cycles are very vital to their lore.

A: I understand their ancient history and mythic cycles are important, but I'm curious as to what actually changed.

B: It's not like Necrons came out and all of a sudden Aspect Warriors could mix squad weapons and all new Eldar tanks became treaded ground pounders.

also just because the blood tide hasn't been MENTIONED doesn't mean it was retconned out of existance

If we want to argue that lore only matters when it changes armies then no lore matters because the inclusion of new units or the removal of old ones is a common occurance that informs the lore not the other way around.

BrianDavion wrote:
also just because the blood tide hasn't been MENTIONED doesn't mean it was retconned out of existance

That's why I said it is retgone

 ClockworkZion wrote:
If we want to argue that lore only matters when it changes armies then no lore matters because the inclusion of new units or the removal of old ones is a common occurance that informs the lore not the other way around.

I don't believe anyone has made that argument.

I am making the same argument as before, some changes are big, some changes are small. A unit changing, or an additional unit is a small change. An alteration in a piece of the lore is another thing. These things happen pretty often.

When was the last time a faction got redefined? Old units and organizations written out of the lore, while being replaced with new, different units and kits? Crimson keeps saying that lore-wise, Primaris are replacements for classic marines. If that is the case, marines as I am used to them will cease to exist. The background changes, the army list changes, the imagery changes. Primaris are not the marines I signed up for, I have no interest in them beyond seeing how GW fares with them in a business/branding sense moving forward as an academic observation.

I hope that will not be the case, but if it is the case, don't tell me it's is a common place occurrence.