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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






In a Trayzn pokeball

"Standard of the Emperor Ascendant
Only model with Astartes Banner ability/ +3” to the range of banner ability (no longer +1 to test roll). Friendly Chapter units with 9” do not roll for morale, enemies have -1 leadership within 9”

Not happy about this, the 3+ to shoot upon death was really good, now the relic isn't worth anything.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The hobby is actually hating GW.
 iGuy91 wrote:
You love the T-Rex. Its both a hero and a Villain in the first two movies. It is the "king" of dinosaurs. Its the best. You love your T-rex.
Then comes along the frakking Spinosaurus who kills the T-rex, and the movie says "LOVE THIS NOW! HE IS BETTER" But...in your heart, you love the T-rex, who shouldn't have lost to no stupid Spinosaurus. So you hate the movie. And refuse to love the Spinosaurus because it is a hamfisted attempt at taking what you loved, making it TREX +++ and trying to sell you it.
 Elbows wrote:
You know what's better than a psychic phase? A psychic phase which asks customers to buy more miniatures...
the_scotsman wrote:
Dae think the company behind such names as deathwatch death guard deathskullz death marks death korps deathleaper death jester might be bad at naming?
 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
"Standard of the Emperor Ascendant
Only model with Astartes Banner ability/ +3” to the range of banner ability (no longer +1 to test roll). Friendly Chapter units with 9” do not roll for morale, enemies have -1 leadership within 9”

Not happy about this, the 3+ to shoot upon death was really good, now the relic isn't worth anything.

The range is good but yet again another example of a nerf and buff at the same time.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in ca
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Vancouver, BC

Here's the list I'm thinking of, assuming FW gets AoD:

Spoiler:

Bat 1:

Captain: Relic Blade, Bolt Pistol, Warlord, Adept of the Codex, Chapter Master(-2CP)

Librarian - Force Staff, Bolt Pistol, the +1 CP power

Tacs: Combi Plas/Plas, 5 models
Tacs: Combi Plas/Plas, 5 Models
Tacs: Combi Flamer/Flamer, 5 Models

Relic Leviathan Dread: Stormcannons x2
Contemptor Mortis: Twin Las x2
Rhino: Dual Stormbolter
Rhino: Dual Stormbolter
Rhino: Dual Stormbolter

Bat 2:

Chaplain - +1 Wound when Shooting prayer, PP, Crozius

LT - Seal of Oath, Exemplar of the Chapter (Master of Strategy(One unit in 6" gets Tactical Doctrine if it isn't on) -1 CP)

Tacs: Missile Launcher, 5 models
Tacs: Missile Launcher, 5 Models
Tacs: Missile Launcher,5 models

Relic Leviathan: Stormcannon x2
Contemptor Mortis: Twin Las x2

Total: 10CP



I still have some points to spend, not sure where to chuck it. Was thinking Hunter Killers since they get another AP on turn 1 for chucking them out.

Was also thinking of spending another CP to give my Captain a Sanctic Halo, just for the 3++ and extra denial chance. Was also thinking of dropping a Rhino, even if I like it for fluff reasons (there being 3 Tac Squads of dudes)

 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Xenomancers wrote:

You take gman for the reroll wounds aura. If I wanted a beast CC unit I'd just take a knight gallant - which hilariously I can't do anymore because marines lose doctrines if they soup...It just keeps getting worse and worse the more I look into it. I called marines being a bottom tier faction about 2 years ago when I saw the codex. It's really not hard to figure out a codex isn't getting much better when you nerf it's best units.


Always knights, knights, knights.

Bobby did nothing overwhelming for things wounding on 3s for his cost when put up against a lieutenant. Losing reroll 2s to wound is not considerably consequential in that regard.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
Iron hands had a chance to be really good. Unfortunately They nerfed repulsors and executioners in anticipation for it. You really think 330 point tanks without invos can be played in competitive? Get outta here. They can't. Plus they will do close to half the damage gman repsulors did. It just doesn't work. Realsitcally. A repuslor with traits is worth about 260 and anytone with half a brain can figure that out quickly by looking at comparable units. Anything that isn't an iron hands repulsor is just laughable too.

So glad I spent 600 bucks on useless executioners and repulsors just for them to get nerfed when they were already overcosted. LOL.

None of the real issues were fixed and strongest units were nerfed. Not very good stragems ether.
Plasma still slays you on a 2 wound model.
Aggressors got a nice buff but their deliver system nerfed so it's a net loss there.
Drop pods come in turn one but still cost too much
Veteran units now cost 2 cp for 10 man...another nerf.
Cents lost gman and mortal wounds strata too?
Storm raven still overcosted AF
Vindi gets a nice buff but loses marines best overall stragem.

There seems to be a consistent theme here - anything that got better got worse in another way. This is essentially a zero sum gain in order to generate sales and confuse people.

Right mister negativity

Sorry the strategum are way better dreadnaught strategum, grav strategum, physioclogy strategum.
Plasma is plasma at this point your complaining about the base 8th rules
Agressors got buffed and I've no idea what delivery system your talking about as I've only ever seen them walking (nobody ever took a repulsor as anything but a MBT)
Turn 1 deepstrike is still a buff not a nerf.
They already cost 2 CP anyway as you needed the detachment for 1 and then the unit for 1Cp dont BS that anyone was running multiple 10 man squads.
Cents lost Gman Gman was broken as feth fishing for MW on reroll your rerolls was toxic play style. They gained 1w and a number of strategums are viable for them.
Vindicator as a top unit your definataly high (it got bar gaining CT and some move and shoot ability as ultramarines and whatever may come form the remaining supplements)

All dreadnaughts gained a strategums and +1A and (movement buffs or what may come)
predators etc all gained Chapter tactics Buff
Calgar +1W and benifits for the shock assualt

Smash captains took a hit but a cheaper more versatile Burning blade option exsists.
Chaplin massive buff for a gutter unit to playable
Tacs -1 point
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

You take gman for the reroll wounds aura. If I wanted a beast CC unit I'd just take a knight gallant - which hilariously I can't do anymore because marines lose doctrines if they soup...It just keeps getting worse and worse the more I look into it. I called marines being a bottom tier faction about 2 years ago when I saw the codex. It's really not hard to figure out a codex isn't getting much better when you nerf it's best units.


Always knights, knights, knights.

Bobby did nothing overwhelming for things wounding on 3s for his cost when put up against a lieutenant. Losing reroll 2s to wound is not considerably consequential in that regard.
You aren't wrong. Space marines best weapons are str 4-7 though. Rockets and las are pretty terrible. Plasma is basically unfieldable at this point with it's interactions with -1 to hit (and people still want it nerfed). The new lasfusils seem nice though - can those be taken in 6 man squads now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Who walks aggressors? LOL no one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You still can't deny I am right. The space marine codex looks initially really good but then you look closer and it's really not that good.

You have to approach it like this. Did the army get better than gman reroll all wounds? No it didn't. The codex is a failure at making marines a better army.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/08/12 19:04:31


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I kind of have to take exception to the idea that the Vindicator strat was the best one in the book. It depended on 1) your opponent bunching up a lot of units and 2) taking three Vindicators in the first place and still having all three in the list when you wanted to use it. Against anyone who knew what it did you'd get at most one chance to use it, unless their dice were really cold.

I'd trade a straight d6 shots for that strat any day of the week.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Xenomancers wrote:
Reemule wrote:
I think it is silly hard to judge a book that hasn't been released, let alone going to its a failure.

Facts we know seem to point to good things. Sub 100 point impulsors. Weapon upgrades on Eliminators. Doctrines, Angels of death, Drop Pods, Scions of Gman, and many of the new strats point to SM getting stronger.

The nerf side seems much lighter, and even some of those mitigated some like Gman going down 50 points, But No soup and the Repulsor point bump does hurt.

In all, Its far too premature to get up tight right now.

You take gman for the reroll wounds aura. If I wanted a beast CC unit I'd just take a knight gallant - which hilariously I can't do anymore because marines lose doctrines if they soup...It just keeps getting worse and worse the more I look into it. I called marines being a bottom tier faction about 2 years ago when I saw the codex.

Seeing as they were top tier when their codex came out, up until CA - I wouldn't be too proud of making *that* particular call.

It's really not hard to figure out a codex isn't getting much better when you nerf it's best units.

Is that why the 7E CWE book was so trash? Because of the nerf to Serpents? Nerfing the best units doesn't, historically, map all that closely to being a bad book.

Ideally, the best stuff gets nerfed, and everything else gets buffed. As Gman was still ocassionally a contender, any half-decent buff to anything else in the book would be OP if they didn't also nerf him.

Also, how do you call a 10% price increase on a vehicle that can now get a 16% durability increase, situationally a 20%-100% firepower increase, and a host of other buffs a net negative - before even seeing all the buffs or any of it in action?



bort wrote:
Assuming Vigilus isn’t removed, you could still get 1cp 10 man Vet Intercessors for 1cp if you pay the 1cp formation tax, right? Yeah it’s the same for 1 unit but then you do get the Vigilus options too.
The appearance of the vilgis stratagems in the codex basically confirms that vigilus is invalidated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
PFFF - repulsors were the best option in a very overpriced codex with no access to chapter tactics. You give them chapter tactics and raise their points by 10% has an overall net 0 gain effect. Not great units just need buffs - you dont have to nerf them at the same time. This is what dumb people do. Make changes to something bad without actually making something better. Yeah they got some AP - but lost access to reroll all wounds. The unit is not a lot worse as a result. We know what gman and repuslors was doing before. Not winning a lot. How do you think slightly better repulsors that cost 10% more without gman will be doing? It is easy to predict. AP on small arms isn't all that useful. Might kill 5-6 more infantry a turn as a result. Marines are already good at killing infantry but the end result is a nerf because no gman.


Repulsors and Bobby lists are ham fisted. If your whole strategy rolling dice harder than everyone else you're going to lose games.

You can make an executioner or repulsor auto hit a flyer.
Uhhh - for a glass cannon army I'm sorry. Rolling dice harder is your ownly option. Vs a lot of armies you wont even be taking saving throws most the time.

I'm sorry, but which armies have AP-4 or better on *most* of their weapons?
You're usually getting an armor save against IG, Knights, CWE, DE, T'au, Marines, Necrons, Nids, .... basically everyone.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






The Newman wrote:
I kind of have to take exception to the idea that the Vindicator strat was the best one in the book. It depended on 1) your opponent bunching up a lot of units and 2) taking three Vindicators in the first place and still having all three in the list when you wanted to use it. Against anyone who knew what it did you'd get at most one chance to use it, unless their dice were really cold.

I'd trade a straight d6 shots for that strat any day of the week.
LOL. The strata is very powerful if you go first. Lots of armies have to start bunched up. Plus it was awesome for shooting over walls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldar...DE...Orks...Necrons...Knights...Space marines...harliquens...Like...basically every army brings tons of it. Or at least tons of AP -3. Plus mortal wounds...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/12 19:10:01


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Xenomancers wrote:

You have to approach it like this. Did the army get better than gman reroll all wounds? No it didn't. The codex is a failure at making marines a better army.

Gmans rerolls were so OP he had to be nerfed into the 400pt range to be "fair" - even when taking otherwise-halfdecent options.

If you need "reroll all wounds" auras to be considered a non-failure, your idea of balance is out of whack.

CWE is known as the "buffing" faction. They have nothing close to a "reroll all wounds" aura.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

You take gman for the reroll wounds aura. If I wanted a beast CC unit I'd just take a knight gallant - which hilariously I can't do anymore because marines lose doctrines if they soup...It just keeps getting worse and worse the more I look into it. I called marines being a bottom tier faction about 2 years ago when I saw the codex. It's really not hard to figure out a codex isn't getting much better when you nerf it's best units.


Always knights, knights, knights.

Bobby did nothing overwhelming for things wounding on 3s for his cost when put up against a lieutenant. Losing reroll 2s to wound is not considerably consequential in that regard.
You aren't wrong. Space marines best weapons are str 4-7 though. Rockets and las are pretty terrible. Plasma is basically unfieldable at this point with it's interactions with -1 to hit (and people still want it nerfed). The new lasfusils seem nice though - can those be taken in 6 man squads now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Who walks aggressors? LOL no one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You still can't deny I am right. The space marine codex looks initially really good but then you look closer and it's really not that good.

You have to approach it like this. Did the army get better than gman reroll all wounds? No it didn't. The codex is a failure at making marines a better army.

I can deny your right because you are WRONG.
Your particular playstyle got nerfed yes, but the codex is better for it. GMAN plus High RoF medium Strength weapon spam is dead thank you GW.

I have only seen 1 dude with agressors lately and he did a good job of having his hold an objective by standing in cover or out of LOS and just blasting anyone who stood on it. Not a repulsor near them.

Move and shoot without penalty dreadnaughts feels like quite a nice buff to me, but you stick to your Gman plus 32 plus knight's "Pure Knights" list of your so unhappy with the codex.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






LOL if space marines were top teir when the eddition came out and I called them falling to the bottom. I am very proud of having that amount of foresight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

You have to approach it like this. Did the army get better than gman reroll all wounds? No it didn't. The codex is a failure at making marines a better army.

Gmans rerolls were so OP he had to be nerfed into the 400pt range to be "fair" - even when taking otherwise-halfdecent options.

If you need "reroll all wounds" auras to be considered a non-failure, your idea of balance is out of whack.

CWE is known as the "buffing" faction. They have nothing close to a "reroll all wounds" aura.
What you fail to understand. Is he was overpointed at 400.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/12 19:15:38


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

I put this in the news thread, but according to GW Facebook, Special Characters that are not currently covered in their own supplements (Pedro Kantor, Shrike, etc) will be getting their stats in a PDF when the codex is released.

That makes me think that some of those characters will be getting new models so they can still get some money out of us. I am fine with that. I want to be able to use Pedro Kantor, but don't want to wait for the supplement. Hooray.

5250 pts
3850 pts
Deathwatch: 1500 pts
Imperial Knights: 375 pts
30K 2500 pts 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Xeno, stop crying about the Guilliman nerf and learn to play properly with your stupid crutch.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Xenomancers wrote:
The Newman wrote:
I kind of have to take exception to the idea that the Vindicator strat was the best one in the book. It depended on 1) your opponent bunching up a lot of units and 2) taking three Vindicators in the first place and still having all three in the list when you wanted to use it. Against anyone who knew what it did you'd get at most one chance to use it, unless their dice were really cold.

I'd trade a straight d6 shots for that strat any day of the week.
LOL. The strata is very powerful if you go first. Lots of armies have to start bunched up. Plus it was awesome for shooting over walls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldar...DE...Orks...Necrons...Knights...Space marines...harliquens...Like...basically every army brings tons of it. Or at least tons of AP -3. Plus mortal wounds...

Eldar? Mind posting these lists that run nothing but CHs/BL Falcons/Reapers? Because most lists use a lot more Shuriken than anything else. And you get your armor save against most Shuriken hits (unless you're T8, which is rare).
DE? Since when does Splinter have an AP-3? Or do you just mean the handful of Disintegrator shots? Those are awfully outnumbered by Splinter/etc weapons.
Orkz? Do Boyz have AP-3 now? How did I miss that?
Necrons? Well, you're getting closer, as their basic troops do take you down to a 4+ in the open. But there's a huge difference between taking a 4+ and not being allowed to take a saving throw...
Knights? Might have a point with that faction, depending on build.
Space Marines? If the new book really did give them AP-3 across-the-board, at 14ppm for basic Marines, they really would be OP...
Harlies? The Fusion build, outside CC, sure. Because they're buying Fusion Guns for every dood. So shoot them... with boltguns? You still get your save in CC. And their doods are costing twice what your doods are.

So maybe 2 of those factions, with very specific builds, that I don't recall featuring promenently recently. Sounds like you're fabricating a meta in your own head again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL if space marines were top teir when the eddition came out and I called them falling to the bottom. I am very proud of having that amount of foresight.

Sure, if your argument at the time was "They're fine now, they'll be trash later". Your argument was "They are trash, and always will be". Quite a difference.



Bharring wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

You have to approach it like this. Did the army get better than gman reroll all wounds? No it didn't. The codex is a failure at making marines a better army.

Gmans rerolls were so OP he had to be nerfed into the 400pt range to be "fair" - even when taking otherwise-halfdecent options.

If you need "reroll all wounds" auras to be considered a non-failure, your idea of balance is out of whack.

CWE is known as the "buffing" faction. They have nothing close to a "reroll all wounds" aura.
What you fail to understand. Is he was overpointed at 400.

I'm not sure how thinking they had to "fix" him by overpointing him somehow means I fail to understand he's overpointed.

His aura is really hard to balance. Especially if you want to make the book work for subfactions that can't/won't take him. Their solution was to drive his points so far up that he's not all that important anymore. That part seemed to work; the problem is they failed to follow up with making the rest of the faction competent.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/12 19:25:51


 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Crimson wrote:
Xeno, stop crying about the Guilliman nerf and learn to play properly with your stupid crutch.
It's this kind of thinking that keeps marines a trash army.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Xenomancers wrote:
The Newman wrote:
I kind of have to take exception to the idea that the Vindicator strat was the best one in the book. It depended on 1) your opponent bunching up a lot of units and 2) taking three Vindicators in the first place and still having all three in the list when you wanted to use it. Against anyone who knew what it did you'd get at most one chance to use it, unless their dice were really cold.

I'd trade a straight d6 shots for that strat any day of the week.
LOL. The strata is very powerful if you go first. Lots of armies have to start bunched up. Plus it was awesome for shooting over walls.


That's kind of making my point for me. It's good. Once. If you take three of a tank with a slightly iffy gun and if you get to go first and if your opponent doesn't know what it does to realize they might need to mitigate it. It can't be the best strat in the book with that many caveats.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/12 19:35:34


   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






The Newman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The Newman wrote:
I kind of have to take exception to the idea that the Vindicator strat was the best one in the book. It depended on 1) your opponent bunching up a lot of units and 2) taking three Vindicators in the first place and still having all three in the list when you wanted to use it. Against anyone who knew what it did you'd get at most one chance to use it, unless their dice were really cold.

I'd trade a straight d6 shots for that strat any day of the week.
LOL. The strata is very powerful if you go first. Lots of armies have to start bunched up. Plus it was awesome for shooting over walls.


That's kind of making my point for me. It's good. Once. If you get to go first and your opponent doesn't know what it does to realize they might need to mitigate it. It can't be the best strat in the book with that many caveats.
Marines are a go first or lose army because it has no defense. It fits in just perfectly with their playstyle.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





There are gobs of possibilities for this codex, but I'm not putting anything real on paper until I can read it.

Expecting the book to hinge on whether or not Bobby rerolls all wounds seems really short sighted.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Daedalus81 wrote:
There are gobs of possibilities for this codex, but I'm not putting anything real on paper until I can read it.

Expecting the book to hinge on whether or not Bobby rerolls all wounds seems really short sighted.
It hinges on things like Repulsors and storm ravens not being overcosted. They still are and repulsors went up in price. Old Gman with these changes could probably have won some events. Overall I think the army went down it's ability to place high at tournaments. That is a bad thing.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in ca
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Vancouver, BC

 Xenomancers wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
There are gobs of possibilities for this codex, but I'm not putting anything real on paper until I can read it.

Expecting the book to hinge on whether or not Bobby rerolls all wounds seems really short sighted.
It hinges on things like Repulsors and storm ravens not being overcosted. They still are and repulsors went up in price. Old Gman with these changes could probably have won some events. Overall I think the army went down it's ability to place high at tournaments. That is a bad thing.


There are more units in the army than Repuslors, Guilliman, Stormravens. Maybe try something new?

 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






That the idiotic G-man monobuild is dead is an amazing thing. Now there actually will be several viable ways to play. And if you can't compete after all these amazing buffs, then the problem probably isn't the codex.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The army is way more than just repulsors and ravens and I can't see how ravens got worse.

The more you talk about repulsors the more it looks like you were leaning on low strength high ROF with full rerolls to wounds to make it work.
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Land Speeder Pilot




UK

Insularum wrote:
So good news for CF/IF aggressors i guess... unmodified 6's cause 2 hits with "bolt weapons", their melee profile meets that criteria.

Looks like im slightly wrong here - IF tactics specifically call out ranged attacks so only CF gets double melee hits with boltstorm/auto-boltstorm gauntlets
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I think that given the current marine win rate, these changes will get them to 50%+. You dont' want them above 55% anyway.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
The Newman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The Newman wrote:
I kind of have to take exception to the idea that the Vindicator strat was the best one in the book. It depended on 1) your opponent bunching up a lot of units and 2) taking three Vindicators in the first place and still having all three in the list when you wanted to use it. Against anyone who knew what it did you'd get at most one chance to use it, unless their dice were really cold.

I'd trade a straight d6 shots for that strat any day of the week.
LOL. The strata is very powerful if you go first. Lots of armies have to start bunched up. Plus it was awesome for shooting over walls.


That's kind of making my point for me. It's good. Once. If you get to go first and your opponent doesn't know what it does to realize they might need to mitigate it. It can't be the best strat in the book with that many caveats.
Marines are a go first or lose army because it has no defense. It fits in just perfectly with their playstyle.

That's stupid and fits under the logic that Killshot was fine.

In reality these Stratagems don't get used and the fact you tried to defend the Vindicator Stratagem as any good is pretty fething laughable to be honest and just makes you look bad.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The Newman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The Newman wrote:
I kind of have to take exception to the idea that the Vindicator strat was the best one in the book. It depended on 1) your opponent bunching up a lot of units and 2) taking three Vindicators in the first place and still having all three in the list when you wanted to use it. Against anyone who knew what it did you'd get at most one chance to use it, unless their dice were really cold.

I'd trade a straight d6 shots for that strat any day of the week.
LOL. The strata is very powerful if you go first. Lots of armies have to start bunched up. Plus it was awesome for shooting over walls.


That's kind of making my point for me. It's good. Once. If you get to go first and your opponent doesn't know what it does to realize they might need to mitigate it. It can't be the best strat in the book with that many caveats.
Marines are a go first or lose army because it has no defense. It fits in just perfectly with their playstyle.

That's stupid and fits under the logic that Killshot was fine.

In reality these Stratagems don't get used and the fact you tried to defend the Vindicator Stratagem as any good is pretty fething laughable to be honest and just makes you look bad.

Whatever dude. It's won me so many games. You obivously are wrong. 3d3 mortals per unit in range of your target for 1 cp? It is hands down amazing. Just for the fact it forces your opponent to deploy differently.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The Newman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The Newman wrote:
I kind of have to take exception to the idea that the Vindicator strat was the best one in the book. It depended on 1) your opponent bunching up a lot of units and 2) taking three Vindicators in the first place and still having all three in the list when you wanted to use it. Against anyone who knew what it did you'd get at most one chance to use it, unless their dice were really cold.

I'd trade a straight d6 shots for that strat any day of the week.
LOL. The strata is very powerful if you go first. Lots of armies have to start bunched up. Plus it was awesome for shooting over walls.


That's kind of making my point for me. It's good. Once. If you get to go first and your opponent doesn't know what it does to realize they might need to mitigate it. It can't be the best strat in the book with that many caveats.
Marines are a go first or lose army because it has no defense. It fits in just perfectly with their playstyle.

That's stupid and fits under the logic that Killshot was fine.

In reality these Stratagems don't get used and the fact you tried to defend the Vindicator Stratagem as any good is pretty fething laughable to be honest and just makes you look bad.

Whatever dude. It's won me so many games. You obivously are wrong. 3d3 mortals per unit in range of your target for 1 cp? It is hands down amazing. Just for the fact it forces your opponent to deploy differently.

Yeah and then your opponent has something with forward deployment so you can't get a good shot in and then they just plink one Vindicator to death.

The stratagem was garbage and anyone defending has a garbage opinion.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The Newman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The Newman wrote:
I kind of have to take exception to the idea that the Vindicator strat was the best one in the book. It depended on 1) your opponent bunching up a lot of units and 2) taking three Vindicators in the first place and still having all three in the list when you wanted to use it. Against anyone who knew what it did you'd get at most one chance to use it, unless their dice were really cold.

I'd trade a straight d6 shots for that strat any day of the week.
LOL. The strata is very powerful if you go first. Lots of armies have to start bunched up. Plus it was awesome for shooting over walls.


That's kind of making my point for me. It's good. Once. If you get to go first and your opponent doesn't know what it does to realize they might need to mitigate it. It can't be the best strat in the book with that many caveats.
Marines are a go first or lose army because it has no defense. It fits in just perfectly with their playstyle.

That's stupid and fits under the logic that Killshot was fine.

In reality these Stratagems don't get used and the fact you tried to defend the Vindicator Stratagem as any good is pretty fething laughable to be honest and just makes you look bad.

Preds are more expensive and less durable then vindis. Plus they also average 2 str 10 d6 damage shots per turn after that and tend to get ignored. It's probably going to be a game changer with d6 shots now. Not sure why you would take any other tank than a vindi now with d6 shots automatic. It would be great if we still had the stragem though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The Newman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
The Newman wrote:
I kind of have to take exception to the idea that the Vindicator strat was the best one in the book. It depended on 1) your opponent bunching up a lot of units and 2) taking three Vindicators in the first place and still having all three in the list when you wanted to use it. Against anyone who knew what it did you'd get at most one chance to use it, unless their dice were really cold.

I'd trade a straight d6 shots for that strat any day of the week.
LOL. The strata is very powerful if you go first. Lots of armies have to start bunched up. Plus it was awesome for shooting over walls.


That's kind of making my point for me. It's good. Once. If you get to go first and your opponent doesn't know what it does to realize they might need to mitigate it. It can't be the best strat in the book with that many caveats.
Marines are a go first or lose army because it has no defense. It fits in just perfectly with their playstyle.

That's stupid and fits under the logic that Killshot was fine.

In reality these Stratagems don't get used and the fact you tried to defend the Vindicator Stratagem as any good is pretty fething laughable to be honest and just makes you look bad.

Whatever dude. It's won me so many games. You obivously are wrong. 3d3 mortals per unit in range of your target for 1 cp? It is hands down amazing. Just for the fact it forces your opponent to deploy differently.

Yeah and then your opponent has something with forward deployment so you can't get a good shot in and then they just plink one Vindicator to death.

The stratagem was garbage and anyone defending has a garbage opinion.
It had unreasonable requirements but it was an amazing stratagem. A game winner actually.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/12 20:34:34


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




"Unreasonable requirements"
"Amazing Stratagem"
Pick one, dude

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
 
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