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Discounts across a wide range of units, a pretty consistent community request.
Chapter Tactics applied to all units, a pretty consistent community request.
If that was all it did, I don't think there would be a lot of room to complain. However, they went beyond that and provided:
Updated units, improved Marines in general.
Improved some of the more underwhelming weapons.
Added more to differentiate the chapters from one another (new strats, new chapter abilities, etc).
Then they even went beyond that:
They provided incentive not to soup without penalizing soup, a pretty consistent community request.
I mean, I don't think Xeno is wildly off-base, this doesn't instantly make Marines top tier, but it definitely gives them a puncher's chance.
Lastly, it's obvious that they listened to the community even if they didn't just write every suggestion you had into the new book verbatim. Maybe give it a ride and see how it plays given that they clearly listened and responded.
The discounts are minimal. -1 per tac marine is nice. Cheaper suppressors - not even sure why cause they were already good. Bonus wounds to gravis (only seems fair). Stalkers got a little better but bolt rifle is still better. Eliminators are just good all around.
Nerfs to gman/ repuslors/ lots of stratagems more expensive for the same effect.
Bonus AP and special doctrine if you don't take allies.
Honestly - you seem to be approaching this with a level head. There is nothing in here IMO that will take a 40% WR army and make it 50%.
But the other 95%+ of the player base that aren't running hardcore tourney lists seem to be happy with the changes. This happens a lot in pc games, something that's crap in the hands of the pros can be amazing to other people if their opponents aren't at top tier play style.
Random example, heroes of the storm has a mage kael'thas who has a huge ban/win rate in bottom end play and dominates games, but by the time you hit pros he's barely picked because people know how to handle him.
Nerf for the masses or buff for the 2% of the player base and make casual games hell?
That is a load of crap. Anyone who is invested in this game and keeps playing it plays at least semi competitive lists. Or at least are trying out combos they think will be powerful. No one is taking units because they think they'll perform worse and no one is trying to lose. What you are talking about is skill floor and skill ceiling - 40k the skill floor and skill ceiling is very narrow. Plus it's almost the opposite of what you can expect with these marine changes. These changes are much more likely to stomp casual lists hard than they are to make a dent in the competitive meta.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Ishagu wrote: I've seen some attacks against Xeno here.
Lets all agree that the Guilliman nerf was overall for the best in terms of the whole codex.
Let's also agree that the Repulsor nerf was ridiculous and unnecessary, and it hurts themed armies most of all.
They mean well. Were you equally as fooled as I was about how good the codex was looking?
Time to bust out the storm ravens I guess.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 20:35:04
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
On the topic of Grey Knights, I wouldn't be surprised if they got a new codex. They might get some stat line changes and significant point adjustments.
Xenomancers wrote: No one is taking units because they think they'll perform worse and no one is trying to lose.
A lot of people take units they know are bad because they like them for aesthetic or thematic reasons.
If they were doing that I wasn't playing gman against them. I'm not a freaking donkey cave.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: Honestly - you seem to be approaching this with a level head. There is nothing in here IMO that will take a 40% WR army and make it 50%.
I want to be outraged, I'm just not.
As far as WR, we'll see, mono-Marines will probably still lose to optimized soup. So in that regard you may be correct. I've been playing all-Marine CSM lists for the last few months with my regular group and have been pleasantly surprised at how well it's done (I started doing it to prove a point that I failed to prove), so that's probably coloring my opinion on things a bit.
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
Ishagu wrote: I've seen some attacks against Xeno here.
Lets all agree that the Guilliman nerf was overall for the best in terms of the whole codex.
Let's also agree that the Repulsor nerf was ridiculous and unnecessary, and it hurts themed armies most of all.
I agree that the Repulsor price hike is kinda drastic and perplexing.
A 6+ FnP 5+ overwatch with -2 to charge distance
Neesing to loose 13 wounds to move to it's second damage tier
With already having Fly and PoTMS it's not exactly trash tier either.
It's GW costing it on it's most efficient way to be run.
We also still haven't seen the Iron hands specific buff yet.
A 6+ FnP 5+ overwatch with -2 to charge distance
Neesing to loose 13 wounds to move to it's second damage tier
With already having Fly and PoTMS it's not exactly trash tier either.
It's GW costing it on it's most efficient way to be run.
We also still haven't seen the Iron hands specific buff yet.
It just is a tad unfortunate for all non IH players...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ishagu wrote: That isn't it, because other vehicles that benefit equally received point drops.
Also: good point.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 20:46:36
Ishagu wrote: That isn't it, because other vehicles that benefit equally received point drops.
Which other vehicles already had fly &PoTMS in the marines codex and gain from the overwatch buff and the damage reduction.
Landraiders Nope
Predators Nope
All rhino chassis Nope
Dreadnaughts Nope
Maybe a stormraven not sure how it's points changed
Maybe a stormtalon again not sure how it's points changed
But no-ones talking around at them having changed points.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 20:52:43
Discounts across a wide range of units, a pretty consistent community request.
Chapter Tactics applied to all units, a pretty consistent community request.
If that was all it did, I don't think there would be a lot of room to complain. However, they went beyond that and provided:
Updated units, improved Marines in general.
Improved some of the more underwhelming weapons.
Added more to differentiate the chapters from one another (new strats, new chapter abilities, etc).
Then they even went beyond that:
They provided incentive not to soup without penalizing soup, a pretty consistent community request.
I mean, I don't think Xeno is wildly off-base, this doesn't instantly make Marines top tier, but it definitely gives them a puncher's chance.
Lastly, it's obvious that they listened to the community even if they didn't just write every suggestion you had into the new book verbatim. Maybe give it a ride and see how it plays given that they clearly listened and responded.
The discounts are minimal. -1 per tac marine is nice. Cheaper suppressors - not even sure why cause they were already good. Bonus wounds to gravis (only seems fair). Stalkers got a little better but bolt rifle is still better. Eliminators are just good all around.
Nerfs to gman/ repuslors/ lots of stratagems more expensive for the same effect.
Bonus AP and special doctrine if you don't take allies.
Honestly - you seem to be approaching this with a level head. There is nothing in here IMO that will take a 40% WR army and make it 50%.
But the other 95%+ of the player base that aren't running hardcore tourney lists seem to be happy with the changes. This happens a lot in pc games, something that's crap in the hands of the pros can be amazing to other people if their opponents aren't at top tier play style.
Random example, heroes of the storm has a mage kael'thas who has a huge ban/win rate in bottom end play and dominates games, but by the time you hit pros he's barely picked because people know how to handle him.
Nerf for the masses or buff for the 2% of the player base and make casual games hell?
That is a load of crap. Anyone who is invested in this game and keeps playing it plays at least semi competitive lists. Or at least are trying out combos they think will be powerful.
I, for one, am invested and still play. I don't play even semi competitively. I play the units/armies I want. The meta seems to treat that just fine - whether I'm playing CWE, Harlies, T'au or UM.
So there are such people. You don't have to be one - that's fine. But don't pretend we don't exist - or matter.
No one is taking units because they think they'll perform worse and no one is trying to lose.
Taking units because they perform worse is not the inverse of taking units because they'll perform better. Believe it or not, some players use reasons other than "What will it do to my WR" when deciding what they want to play with.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 21:05:09
Ishagu wrote: I've seen some attacks against Xeno here.
Lets all agree that the Guilliman nerf was overall for the best in terms of the whole codex.
Let's also agree that the Repulsor nerf was ridiculous and unnecessary, and it hurts themed armies most of all.
I mean, it means Ultramarines are strictly worse than most other, maybe all other, chapters now. So that makes me, as an Ultramarines player, sad. But I prefer apoc now in any case.
I mean, it means Ultramarines are strictly worse than most other, maybe all other, chapters now. So that makes me, as an Ultramarines player, sad. But I prefer apoc now in any case.
Ultramarine doctrine benefit is really amazing. Of course we will not know what other supplements will bring, so we cannot adequately compare. Also, loads of special characters. Both Calgar and Tigurius are pretty damn good.
I mean, it means Ultramarines are strictly worse than most other, maybe all other, chapters now. So that makes me, as an Ultramarines player, sad. But I prefer apoc now in any case.
Ultramarine doctrine benefit is really amazing. Of course we will not know what other supplements will bring, so we cannot adequately compare. Also, loads of special characters. Both Calgar and Tigurius are pretty damn good.
The ultramarine doctrine benefit is.... super meh compared to... literally everyone but maybe the raven guard now. It flat didn't change. Tigerius also barely changed. He does what tigerius always did, which is.... just alright. It's not great. Finally Calgar is... just better than guilliman now sure, but not so much better that he is better than guilliman was. He's still just a chapter master and that's it. Any chapter master fits in what calgar does.
Ultramarines will just be basically "good" with what space marines get, but worse than every single other chapter at using it. Which is a bummer.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 22:25:10
The ultramarine doctrine benefit is.... super meh compared to... literally everyone but maybe the raven guard now. It flat didn't change. Tigerius also barely changed. He does what tigerius always did, which is.... just alright. It's not great. Finally Calgar is... just better than guilliman now sure, but not so much better that he is better than guilliman was. He's still just a chapter master and that's it. Any chapter master fits in what calgar does.
Ultramarines will just be basically "good" with what space marines get, but worse than every single other chapter at using it. Which is a bummer.
Being able to move and then shoot like you hadn't is a great benefit. And having a chapter master that gives you two command points rather than cost you them is great. Especially now as souping a CP battery really isn't an option and there are plenty of stratagems worth using four CPs more is a lot. Oh, and then one more per turn from an Ultra warlord trait.
No, you don't understand! Getting a bunch of benefits to shooting units in a Codex where the shooting units are much better than the melee ones is CLEARLY worse than rerolling charge distances!
No, I'm not annoyed at all the poor, martyred Ultramarine players at all...
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
The ultramarine doctrine benefit is.... super meh compared to... literally everyone but maybe the raven guard now. It flat didn't change. Tigerius also barely changed. He does what tigerius always did, which is.... just alright. It's not great. Finally Calgar is... just better than guilliman now sure, but not so much better that he is better than guilliman was. He's still just a chapter master and that's it. Any chapter master fits in what calgar does.
Ultramarines will just be basically "good" with what space marines get, but worse than every single other chapter at using it. Which is a bummer.
Being able to move and then shoot like you hadn't is a great benefit. And having a chapter master that gives you two command points rather than cost you them is great. Especially now as souping a CP battery really isn't an option and there are plenty of stratagems worth using four CPs more is a lot. Oh, and then one more per turn from an Ultra warlord trait.
I've never felt the need to soup. My local meta just isn't good enough and the really tourney players pretty much just play themselves. I'd have to ambush him in an alley to get a game from someone like tony these days.
Doesn't mean I can rock in with just any old list and win a game. I tried with vigilus detachments.
It's cheaper. Did it go down enough such that we'd start seeing drop pod armies?
How much cheaper?
With 1st Turn Drop, reduced Marine costs, reduced Grav Cannon costs, Devastator/Tactical Doctrine and a Grav-centric Stratagem I'm already going to be putting them back in my lists.
It's cheaper. Did it go down enough such that we'd start seeing drop pod armies?
How much cheaper?
With 1st Turn Drop, reduced Marine costs, reduced Grav Cannon costs, Devastator/Tactical Doctrine and a Grav-centric Stratagem I'm already going to be putting them back in my lists.
63 +2 for storm bolter, so they're 65 now. I don't know what they were before lol
It's cheaper. Did it go down enough such that we'd start seeing drop pod armies?
How much cheaper?
With 1st Turn Drop, reduced Marine costs, reduced Grav Cannon costs, Devastator/Tactical Doctrine and a Grav-centric Stratagem I'm already going to be putting them back in my lists.
You were always using them I thought.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 23:21:59
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No, you don't understand! Getting a bunch of benefits to shooting units in a Codex where the shooting units are much better than the melee ones is CLEARLY worse than rerolling charge distances!
No, I'm not annoyed at all the poor, martyred Ultramarine players at all...
They have been sub optimal for literally every edition in the game except for what we might as well call the first stage of 8th edition. Where they got a codex first and had a way around chapter tactics not applying to vehicles. By taking units that got a better version of their chapter tactic (fly repuslors) and using the best damage ramp in the game. Realistically - the list struggled mightily against any competitive army that wasn't spamming infantry. Yet - it has received a nerf on the level of ynnari that is extremely unjustified based on the performance of said armies. The core weakness of marines is poor defense (easily ignored defenses) so getting your damage in while you are still standing is extremely important. On the whole defense hasn't been increased at all except through tiny point drops and added wounds to a few units which were severely underperforming defensively.
On the topic of BT chapter tactic. It is still kinda meh. 5+ against mortal wounds is pretty situational but it's not like they don't take equal benefit to shooting as other chapters from bonus AP and reroll all hits auras.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/14 23:31:12
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
