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 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

While I agree his shooting is superior he is nowhere near the level of calgar in melee. They're not even playing the same game in terms of legality up close and melee counter punch. Calgar has more attacks, hit's harder, hits essentially every time (2+ re-rollable versus flat 3+) and is on similar levels of overall durability depending on what hits him. I think Iron boy is comparable for sure and overall in the same ballpark (albeit less strong IMO), but he's not the fighter boss that Calgar is.

Nor does papa Cybork help his lads with melee support rerolls. Get in under the guns of an Iron Hands parking lot and they're gonna have a bad, bad day.

Yeah this is my thinking too. He has a decent melee weapon but he's not going toe to toe with anything serious. And sure, the gun is good for a character, but not amazing. The relic bolt rifle available to anyone is better, as it has 4 shots instead of 3 - albeit at less range.

So but he's a buffer, not a fighter. If the cost is right then that's fine. He keeps your stuff alive rather than killing enemy stuff.

One other thing that counts against him is the other relic that's been teased. Reducing incoming damage by 1 is an immense buff in today's meta, which is very full of 2-damage weapons. Halving the damage Hemlocks cause is phenomenal.

Iron hands is the new marine hotness

Can't wait till Shrikes' preview tomorrow, curious what that gun of his does, how good he is in melee and whether he'll have any special interaction with Phobos units. And hopefully he'll keep his Winged Deliverance ability.

 DoomMouse wrote:
Just noticed we can give scout sergeants thunder hammers these day. Could be interesting for a first turn surprise punch for 16pts extra on a scout squad.

And yet, Sternguard sarges are called out as not being allowed to have them still. Would it be to powerful to put on a sarge with 3 attacks that can hide in a squad? Let’s ask intercessor sergeants...

<grumble>

 Nevelon wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Just noticed we can give scout sergeants thunder hammers these day. Could be interesting for a first turn surprise punch for 16pts extra on a scout squad.

And yet, Sternguard sarges are called out as not being allowed to have them still. Would it be to powerful to put on a sarge with 3 attacks that can hide in a squad? Let’s ask intercessor sergeants...

<grumble>

For some reason sternguard were the first guys to be hit by the “no kitbash” rule. There’s no thunder hammer in the box, so they can’t have one.

And where is the Thuderhammer in the Scout box? Cause there sure is none in mine...

Inceptors look pretty good now. They are 41 per model, got a third wound, they can re-rolls 1s to hit with bolter fusillades, no captain babysitter needed, and with hammer of wrath they can do MW on 5+, in addition to their 6+ MW meteoric descent after charging. After charging they get +1 attack in melee with shock assault.

Cpt. Icanus wrote:
And where is the Thuderhammer in the Scout box? Cause there sure is none in mine...

Well yeah that’s my point. The “no kitbash” rule is bizarre and gets applied totally arbitrarily. The only consistent thing seems to be that it applies to kits released after a particular time.

It’s mostly a problem for Primaris, where it applies to everything apart from (for no obvious reason) intercessor sergeants. Stuff released earlier gets let off the hook, even when it would actually be quite tricky to convert them in some cases. I think it would be quite hard to make a scout with thunder hammer look good, but you van just go for it.

Scouts with thunder hammers are silly, but if you used dwarf hammers from aos it would look ok, if still a bit under sized. But hey, you have undersized power fists on imperial guard commanders as an option as well so..... yeah? :p

Note : i am not suggesting you put thunder hammers on your scouts..... that seems like a bad idea.

Azuza001 wrote:
Scouts with thunder hammers are silly, but if you used dwarf hammers from aos it would look ok, if still a bit under sized. But hey, you have undersized power fists on imperial guard commanders as an option as well so..... yeah? :p

Note : i am not suggesting you put thunder hammers on your scouts..... that seems like a bad idea.

Why not? Give them 'whirlwind of rage' and 'master artisans' successor tactics and you average 2.6 thunder hammer hits with a scout sergeant on the charge

Yeah I know it's probs not the strongest and it's probably a bad idea to convert a model that could easily not exist next edition but I would find it funny.

So... shrikes info has been shown..... so its a 14" moving shrike. Sigh. I mean, i hope he doesn't cost much but at the moment thats very underwhelming vs the iron father.

Well, he gives Chapter Master rerolls, where as the Iron Father might not give rerolls at all.

Of course, if you build your list with all heavies, you don't really care about Captain Rerolls...

Yeah, but he is just shrike with an extra attack, wound, and 2" movement. Oh and he has a sniper pistol. Very underwhelming vs what the iron father can add to your force. There isnt anything the primaris shrike can do that non primaris couldnt, so he isnt andding anything new really to the army.

Don't get me wrong, i am not complaining about shrike as i have always enjoyed him. Its just gw keeps showing awsome thing day 1, day 2 not so much, day 3 awsome, day 4 not so much. They should have done it the other way to drum up excitement instead they end on a low note and makes me go mmmmm.

I guess it saves feeling compelled to buy the RG book... :p. Though I’m still tempted since Reece has mentioned how they’re his favorite due to their tricks and the preview didn’t show any of their stratagem tricks yet.

RG does seem like a pretty good counter army to IH though. They can snipe the Ironstone character and get in cc without taking overwatch vs the packed in heavy vehicles.

I was just reading through the codex again (prepping for a RTT tomorrow) and did anyone else realize that they changed Honour The Chapter to now work on ANY Adeptus Astartes unit, So Dreadnoughts can now fight twice in CC.

Azuza001 wrote:
Yeah, but he is just shrike with an extra attack, wound, and 2" movement. Oh and he has a sniper pistol. Very underwhelming vs what the iron father can add to your force. There isnt anything the primaris shrike can do that non primaris couldnt, so he isnt andding anything new really to the army.

Don't get me wrong, i am not complaining about shrike as i have always enjoyed him. Its just gw keeps showing awsome thing day 1, day 2 not so much, day 3 awsome, day 4 not so much. They should have done it the other way to drum up excitement instead they end on a low note and makes me go mmmmm.

That sniper pistol can easily one-shot a Commissar or Ethereal from deepstrike though. 2+ rerollable to hit and 2+ to wound in tactical doctrine. But no, he isn't as original as the Iron Father. But if GW changed Shrike too much you'd hear no end of complaints about that.

I wanted sniper rifle and camo cloak Shrike, but nooooo everyone else insisted "jUmP pAcKs aRe rAvEn GuArD!!!1!".

Personally, I'm pleasantly happy with him in spite of what my wishes were. The model's really nice so he'll be getting purchased, while the current Shrike model has never been owned by me.


With that out of the way, I do think it silly that we didn't see a Phobos Assault Marines styled unit. Really would have solidified this release.

more IH stuff:

https://imgur.com/a/vabCad0

I was hoping gorgon chain would be a 3++ but making a leviathan a char now lets you put any wounds that do get through onto that squad of stalker intercessors next to it. Kind of silly.

Damn.... thats sweet. Ironclad chr dread is comming for ya! Lol

Khornatedemon wrote:
more IH stuff:

https://imgur.com/a/vabCad0

I was hoping gorgon chain would be a 3++ but making a leviathan a char now lets you put any wounds that do get through onto that squad of stalker intercessors next to it. Kind of silly.

Have we seen anything like this for Raven Guard?

 Kanluwen wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:
more IH stuff:

https://imgur.com/a/vabCad0

I was hoping gorgon chain would be a 3++ but making a leviathan a char now lets you put any wounds that do get through onto that squad of stalker intercessors next to it. Kind of silly.

Have we seen anything like this for Raven Guard?

Nothing that i've come across. I found the IH one on reddit but there hasnt been anything else posted. Apparently its from a twitch stream on warhammer tv that also stated the iron father is 110 points and that in the IH book dreads can take relics and warlord traits with the character strat.

An option for iron hands would be a bunch of venerable and/or Mortis dreads (not contemptors) made into characters. With 8 wounds you could have a gunline that the enemy couldn’t fire back at. That seems fair.

Mandragola wrote:
An option for iron hands would be a bunch of venerable and/or Mortis dreads (not contemptors) made into characters. With 8 wounds you could have a gunline that the enemy couldn’t fire back at. That seems fair.

Venerables waste their innate 6fnp though. Normally I'd still buy them for the 2+ stats, but if you can get a source of +1 to hit or 2+ BS from the named IH guy then you could use a regular dread for cheaper.

But all this still gets back to my thought, yeah RG may not be as good in general as IH, but RG seems like they could be a pretty solid counter pick to an IH meta. All those character dreads just got easier to kill and if you were bunched up for the 3" aura then anything reaching cc while avoiding overwatch will be a serious problem.

the ability to intercept wounds on characters for a strat seems pretty nice. I can just imagine how the design development of this supplement went.

"Fans have long complained that Iorn Hands aren't given very good treatment, lacking a special character etc" "HOLD MY BEER!"

I mean the more I see the more rediculas this looks.

BrianDavion wrote:
the ability to intercept wounds on characters for a strat seems pretty nice. I can just imagine how the design development of this supplement went.

"Fans have long complained that Iorn Hands aren't given very good treatment, lacking a special character etc" "HOLD MY BEER!"

I mean the more I see the more rediculas this looks.

GW making up for the past and future 20 years of neglect all at once

Had a game with non-primaris ultramarines against chaos knights soup. In the particular game seal of oath was naturally mean and rapid deployment was great too. My opponent conceded after my second turn. I overwatched a lord disco T1 with four units, that strat was nice too. I had chronus in a assback and it wasn't that bad choice either.

I dunno if we played right, but my enemy tried to save his knight by tying it in melee against drop pod, he multi-charged one of my grav devs and their pod and made all attacks against dev squad (stomping only three hehe ws5+). My chapter master with teeth of terra finished the knight off T2, but it's not good against T8 not so suprisingly, had to fight twice..

One more thing I liked was adept of the codex and scryer's gaze 2cp farming.. my librarian with jump pack had two WT (2nd masters of strategy) hiding in my gunline.

Xirax wrote:
One more thing I liked was adept of the codex and scryer's gaze 2cp farming.. my librarian with jump pack had two WT (2nd masters of strategy) hiding in my gunline.

You can’t refund 2 CP. As per the April 2019 update...

Tactical Restraint (page 7)
There are several Warlord Traits, Relics, psychic powers and abilities that give you a chance to gain or refund Command Points. Each player can only gain or have refunded a total of 1 Command Point per battle round as the result of such rules, regardless of the source.

Ok, thanks. Thought it didn't involve psychic powers such as scryer's gaze. On 2nd turn I think I failed luke 6 5+ in a row for adept of the codex. But still makes it more reliable to have to sources to try it.

Guerilla Miniature's review of the Raven Guard book:

There's definitely some nice Warlord Traits(Swift and Deadly would be great for a Captain with Jump Pack; Advance+Charge in a 6" bubble).

Oppressor's End is a Relic Combat Knife, so the Reiver Lt can get a nasty trick with attacks vs characters getting resolved at 3 damage.
Ex Tenebris can go on Phobos Captains to give you a Assault 3 S4 -2AP 2 Damage Bolt Carbine that ignores Cover.
Shadowmaster's Cloak(3+ Invuln when wholly on a terrain feature) is nice.

But can we talk about the Stratagem, "Strangehold"? Am I wrong in thinking that might be a Big Deal? If you have Phobos or Scout units in your Raven Guard army, your opponent has to roll each time they do a Stratagem...if they fail their CP cost goes up by 1 for the Stratagem.

Am I crazy for thinking that's a good trick?