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 Xenomancers wrote:

bort wrote:
But you prob wouldnt ever do Shrike on his own turn 1, you’re also dropping 6 assault cents 9” away with another HQ, some Invictors, and maybe something else that can run up far enough with the extra pregame move.

I’m still back to wondering if at that point you wouldn’t use a custom HQ instead of Shrike since you aren’t using his jump pack or Phobos charge rerolls, but the turn 1 charge idea stands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I haven’t looked into the points it’d take, prob too many, but I’d be tempted to make an IH backfield blob of unkillable shooty dreads and then an RG component that can either get in someone’s face turn 1 or screen the IH portion, whichever is better vs your current opponent.

You do that and you lose your super doctrines. Basically not viable.

Maybe... I think that the RG one is passable at best, and doesn't affect turn 1 at all. I reckon there'd definitely be an argument for cherry picking the top relics/strats/traits/warlord traits for 2 or 3 different marine chapters (EG iron hands leviathans with iron father and ironstone combo with some infiltrating assault centurions as a raven guard successor). Loss of super doctrines for free access to all the cheese in all the 6 supplements.

I am thinking of running 6 assault centurions with hurricane bolters and flame gauntlets with my ravenguard. Going to try the warlord trait to give the warlord and a unit the ability to start 9" out on an apothecary for heals, drop them in cover, and see if they get ignored (probably a bad idea) or shot at (yessss waist your ammo on them... ignore everything else.... it will be fine.....)

Should be interesting.

bort wrote:
Salamanders give a really tough choice on chapter. Successor gives the super important +3” to range to benefit flamers and Melta, but Vulkan gives the wound rerolls...Either way, prob not the army for me, but gives some solid options to players with a large 5th ed Marine army lying around.

Vulkan also doesn't help anyone outside an aura. That extra 3" does more for Flamers than Vulkan ever will.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azuza001 wrote:
https://spikeybits.com/2019/09/new-salamanders-space-marines-rules-spotted.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook&fbclid=IwAR2vFEK55nhJk_fgd-FfU5qAGopDL4IdJ2RX-UhUwYhUP7LXoitHnxE0skM

Maybe not the right place to put this but looks like salamanders may have been leaked?

This was already posted and it really doesn't do much for the army. Salamanders will continue to suck.

An UM list got 3rd at LGT. Bobby G, 2 repulsors, a squad of aggressors, some elimnators and standard scouts and whatnot. Top 2 lists were nasty eldar flyer spam. Anyone selling stormhawks?

There was also an interesting soup list that won another charity gt that was a BA battalion with smash cap and scouts and a UM vanguard with a bike chappy and 3 invictors backed up by a pair of tank commanders and guard mortar spam. I expect we'll start seeing more of the smash captain and 3 invictors in soup in the future

Khornatedemon wrote:
An UM list got 3rd at LGT. Bobby G, 2 repulsors, a squad of aggressors, some elimnators and standard scouts and whatnot. Top 2 lists were nasty eldar flyer spam. Anyone selling stormhawks?

There was also an interesting soup list that won another charity gt that was a BA battalion with smash cap and scouts and a UM vanguard with a bike chappy and 3 invictors backed up by a pair of tank commanders and guard mortar spam. I expect we'll start seeing more of the smash captain and 3 invictors in soup in the future

How was the Bike Chap being used?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:
An UM list got 3rd at LGT. Bobby G, 2 repulsors, a squad of aggressors, some elimnators and standard scouts and whatnot. Top 2 lists were nasty eldar flyer spam. Anyone selling stormhawks?

There was also an interesting soup list that won another charity gt that was a BA battalion with smash cap and scouts and a UM vanguard with a bike chappy and 3 invictors backed up by a pair of tank commanders and guard mortar spam. I expect we'll start seeing more of the smash captain and 3 invictors in soup in the future

How was the Bike Chap being used?

Slash chappy with teeth of terra and imperium sword

Possibly thinking RG WT that infils an infantry unit with warlord for Aggressors, and a 2nd WT on a character that allows 3 units t be redeployed (from vanguard traits). Totally redeploy your force to mass somewhere else.

Khornatedemon wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:
An UM list got 3rd at LGT. Bobby G, 2 repulsors, a squad of aggressors, some elimnators and standard scouts and whatnot. Top 2 lists were nasty eldar flyer spam. Anyone selling stormhawks?

There was also an interesting soup list that won another charity gt that was a BA battalion with smash cap and scouts and a UM vanguard with a bike chappy and 3 invictors backed up by a pair of tank commanders and guard mortar spam. I expect we'll start seeing more of the smash captain and 3 invictors in soup in the future

How was the Bike Chap being used?

Slash chappy with teeth of terra and imperium sword

I don't think Chaps are even allowed Chainswords are they? Plus even if they are, the Captain already rerolling his own hits rather than needing a 3+ for it makes more sense for a weapon with as many attacks like the Teeth of Terra.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:
An UM list got 3rd at LGT. Bobby G, 2 repulsors, a squad of aggressors, some elimnators and standard scouts and whatnot. Top 2 lists were nasty eldar flyer spam. Anyone selling stormhawks?

There was also an interesting soup list that won another charity gt that was a BA battalion with smash cap and scouts and a UM vanguard with a bike chappy and 3 invictors backed up by a pair of tank commanders and guard mortar spam. I expect we'll start seeing more of the smash captain and 3 invictors in soup in the future

How was the Bike Chap being used?

Slash chappy with teeth of terra and imperium sword

I don't think Chaps are even allowed Chainswords are they? Plus even if they are, the Captain already rerolling his own hits rather than needing a 3+ for it makes more sense for a weapon with as many attacks like the Teeth of Terra.

I dont have the index so I couldnt say. I'm going to guess maybe it's a points thing cause the chappy is cheaper?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:
An UM list got 3rd at LGT. Bobby G, 2 repulsors, a squad of aggressors, some elimnators and standard scouts and whatnot. Top 2 lists were nasty eldar flyer spam. Anyone selling stormhawks?

There was also an interesting soup list that won another charity gt that was a BA battalion with smash cap and scouts and a UM vanguard with a bike chappy and 3 invictors backed up by a pair of tank commanders and guard mortar spam. I expect we'll start seeing more of the smash captain and 3 invictors in soup in the future

How was the Bike Chap being used?

Slash chappy with teeth of terra and imperium sword

I don't think Chaps are even allowed Chainswords are they? Plus even if they are, the Captain already rerolling his own hits rather than needing a 3+ for it makes more sense for a weapon with as many attacks like the Teeth of Terra.

My guess is that he is using the +1 S/A/D self buff which stacks really well with the high number of attacks. Also IIRC chaplains hit on 2+ CC don't they?

Vilehydra wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:
An UM list got 3rd at LGT. Bobby G, 2 repulsors, a squad of aggressors, some elimnators and standard scouts and whatnot. Top 2 lists were nasty eldar flyer spam. Anyone selling stormhawks?

There was also an interesting soup list that won another charity gt that was a BA battalion with smash cap and scouts and a UM vanguard with a bike chappy and 3 invictors backed up by a pair of tank commanders and guard mortar spam. I expect we'll start seeing more of the smash captain and 3 invictors in soup in the future

How was the Bike Chap being used?

Slash chappy with teeth of terra and imperium sword

I don't think Chaps are even allowed Chainswords are they? Plus even if they are, the Captain already rerolling his own hits rather than needing a 3+ for it makes more sense for a weapon with as many attacks like the Teeth of Terra.

My guess is that he is using the +1 S/A/D self buff which stacks really well with the high number of attacks. Also IIRC chaplains hit on 2+ CC don't they?

They do, but they don't get the reroll unless they did their chant on a 3+, and I'd wager, if you're doing Smashchap, you're gonna want the chant that makes him better at fighting anyway.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:
An UM list got 3rd at LGT. Bobby G, 2 repulsors, a squad of aggressors, some elimnators and standard scouts and whatnot. Top 2 lists were nasty eldar flyer spam. Anyone selling stormhawks?

There was also an interesting soup list that won another charity gt that was a BA battalion with smash cap and scouts and a UM vanguard with a bike chappy and 3 invictors backed up by a pair of tank commanders and guard mortar spam. I expect we'll start seeing more of the smash captain and 3 invictors in soup in the future

How was the Bike Chap being used?

Slash chappy with teeth of terra and imperium sword

I don't think Chaps are even allowed Chainswords are they? Plus even if they are, the Captain already rerolling his own hits rather than needing a 3+ for it makes more sense for a weapon with as many attacks like the Teeth of Terra.

My guess is that he is using the +1 S/A/D self buff which stacks really well with the high number of attacks. Also IIRC chaplains hit on 2+ CC don't they?

They do, but they don't get the reroll unless they did their chant on a 3+, and I'd wager, if you're doing Smashchap, you're gonna want the chant that makes him better at fighting anyway.

Yeah I'd agree with using the self-buff. Although the chappy could've also used Canticles of hate for the +2 to charging on the invictor warsuits AND for that juicy 6" consolidate/pile in. Charge the screen that is protecting the tanks, and then pile in further then your opponent expects. Gives them incredible (if contextual) mobility and with the UM redeploy strat you can set them up for good first turn charges dependent on if you go first or second. With proper finesse the extra range on consolidate/pile in can be devastating with first turn disruption.

Also even if this wasn't the case, going from 2D -> 3D is a massive boost in efficiency for killing any 6+ Wound model which is why someone would choose a chaplain over captain. Haven't run the math but my guess would be the str6 3D out performs the rerolling ones on everything except T4 1-2 Wound models, which is a prevalent statline.

I'm finding all the talk of Infiltrating Assault centurions pretty funny, is there a less ravenguard unit ;-)

I could see an FAQ of that WL trait giving it a CP cap or restricting it to unit that don't have a 2+ save.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

They do, but they don't get the reroll unless they did their chant on a 3+, and I'd wager, if you're doing Smashchap, you're gonna want the chant that makes him better at fighting anyway.

Chaplains cannot use chainswords.

 WisdomLS wrote:
I'm finding all the talk of Infiltrating Assault centurions pretty funny, is there a less ravenguard unit ;-)

I could see an FAQ of that WL trait giving it a CP cap or restricting it to unit that don't have a 2+ save.

Yeah, a FAQ would not be inappropriate. They do seem a bit wrong.

If it helps, it’s not just the assault ones that work really well as ravenguard. Getting rid of devastator centurions in cover is going to be awkward too, and they get +1 to hit and wound most knights, due to being characters.

I’m not sure if it’s sillier that you can have them sneak into position before the game or pop out from behind a bush during it.

In any event, ravenguard are sort of like GSC in power armour now. I actually think they look seriously good. Iron Hands have the downsides of wanting to hug a 3” radius of the character with the relic, and a low model count – which are bad qualities for achieving missions. Raven Guard probably want an infantry-based army with quite a lot of intercessors, infiltrators and centurions. They’ll be all over the board and very difficult to get off it, with a ton of dakka for removing other people’s troops.

 Xenomancers wrote:

bort wrote:
But you prob wouldnt ever do Shrike on his own turn 1, you’re also dropping 6 assault cents 9” away with another HQ, some Invictors, and maybe something else that can run up far enough with the extra pregame move.

I’m still back to wondering if at that point you wouldn’t use a custom HQ instead of Shrike since you aren’t using his jump pack or Phobos charge rerolls, but the turn 1 charge idea stands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I haven’t looked into the points it’d take, prob too many, but I’d be tempted to make an IH backfield blob of unkillable shooty dreads and then an RG component that can either get in someone’s face turn 1 or screen the IH portion, whichever is better vs your current opponent.

You do that and you lose your super doctrines. Basically not viable.

IH dread backfield doesn't need to move and a captain will provide the rerolls to 1 easy enough. No need to get their super doctrine at all. It's basically useless if you don't intend to spread out or move much.

RG one is against Characters specifically, and while that's pretty powerful, the trade off you're really making is giving that up for a really durable backfield. I think that's plenty viable.

Yeah i really think Rg dont care as much about their super doctrine as other forces will. Its nice if it comes up but unless your facing knight chrs or tank chrs (tank commanders, the ultramarine guy, longstrike, lord discordant) or maybe an assassin very often its not that usful vs an enemies army as a whole. Running a salad with them or even soup isnt hurting them that much, vs iron hands for example who can have their army built around the devistarors doctrine for big bonuses.

To be honest I think you will nearly always get the super-doctrines. The thing is, you don’t gain an awful lot by souping, given that you already lose combat doctrines if you take any non-marine units. After all, is it really so important to have two different types of marines in your army? I suggest usually the benefit of doing so would be less than what you’d gain from any of the super-doctrines that we’ve seen so far.

I guess you’ll sometimes see small detachments of marines taken in support of other imperial armies, but if you’re taking a majority-marine army I think it’ll make sense to go for a single chapter.

Mandragola wrote:


I guess you’ll sometimes see small detachments of marines taken in support of other imperial armies, but if you’re taking a majority-marine army I think it’ll make sense to go for a single chapter.

It highly depends on the chapter you're using. White Scars and Raven Guard are purpose built to soup, their power comes from their stratagems, WL traits and relics. They lose relatively little by giving up super-doctrines and doctrines (and I say that as someone who holds the RG super-doctrine in very high esteem).

As an example, I currently run a WS successor battalion alongside my Deathwatch. The heavy lifting is done by their CTs, individual unit rules and stratagems. They dont care for a second that they dont get super-punches or a splash of additional AP.

He's right you know.

Thus far, only Iron Hands will dread giving up thier super doctrine.

Imp fists might be in a similar situation.

They are also the 2 chapters that don't really like going to battle with other forces. IH attitude precludes "playing nice" with others; and Imp fists are all: "let me just do ot myself" smugness.

All other supplements that we have seen so far won't lose much from cooperation with other marines.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


Thus far, only Iron Hands will dread giving up thier super doctrine.

I would personally argue that the Smurfs do as well. Counting as stationary is a game changer for a great many units.

 WisdomLS wrote:
I'm finding all the talk of Infiltrating Assault centurions pretty funny, is there a less ravenguard unit ;-)

I could see an FAQ of that WL trait giving it a CP cap or restricting it to unit that don't have a 2+ save.

This image disagrees.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
He's right you know.

Thus far, only Iron Hands will dread giving up thier super doctrine.

Imp fists might be in a similar situation.

They are also the 2 chapters that don't really like going to battle with other forces. IH attitude precludes "playing nice" with others; and Imp fists are all: "let me just do ot myself" smugness.

All other supplements that we have seen so far won't lose much from cooperation with other marines.

I think the IH part is really dependent on what you want. Rerolling 1s is plentiful for ALL weapon types in a marine army.

The mobility you gain is really what matters, but that truly only matters if you're intending to use it. All these castles around Feirros suggest it isn't going to be that useful to them. You could also just bring units with PotMS if you want to slowly move 5"-11" a turn and by doing so you've just completely replaced that super doctrine.

It's honestly not that great unless you intend to by more aggressive. The heals and durability tools come from strats, unit abilities, and the psychic discipline.

Hmm fair enough. Personally I think the RG super doctrine is pretty good. I think I’d need a compelling reason to take a different kind of vanilla marines, losing the doctrine, rather than just go all RG.

That might be to do with how RG work though. Their CTs are good for their troops and firebase, but their characters and stratagems are good for going up close and beheading things. So the chapter covers most bases on its own without needing further support.

The same arguably applies to iron hands. It might be true that the bubble and potms on executioners means they don’t really need the super doctrine. But it’s a very bad approach to castle up entirely. Units like the flyers, suppressors and TFCs all gain loads from the super doctrine and you’ll need them (or something comparable) to take and hold objectives, and remove troops you can’t see from objectives.

You know what? I keep forgetting repulsors have PotMS.

New Dex and supplements are almost like GW is smacking everyone who cried "Primaris are replacing old marines, old marines are going to get squatted" over the head with a big no sign.

IH super doctrine is very useful for 2 things:

Maneuverability with heavy weapons.

Supercharging plasma.

Multimeltas become more useful with relentless, no longer limiting them to a 12" radius of board denial; but an actual weapon to move toward the enemy armor(-1 to hit isn't that bad but I am still having trouble not thinking of them like they were in older editions).
Dread-walls start moving in for the attack at full capacity again, meaning left arms can be fists again.
Preds, razors, and vindys are all more mobile.

The reroll 1s mean that Plasma has less risk of overheat, especially the heavy variants while moving. Plasma cannons, heavy incinerators, and macro incinerators are almost slain/mortal wound proof instead of far more likely(glad that my redemptor can swap main guns). The rest of the plasma weapons also benefit from reroll 1s without a captain babysitter.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
You know what? I keep forgetting repulsors have PotMS.

New Dex and supplements are almost like GW is smacking everyone who cried "Primaris are replacing old marines, old marines are going to get squatted" over the head with a big no sign.

IH super doctrine is very useful for 2 things:

Maneuverability with heavy weapons.

Supercharging plasma.

Multimeltas become more useful with relentless, no longer limiting them to a 12" radius of board denial; but an actual weapon to move toward the enemy armor(-1 to hit isn't that bad but I am still having trouble not thinking of them like they were in older editions).
Dread-walls start moving in for the attack at full capacity again, meaning left arms can be fists again.
Preds, razors, and vindys are all more mobile.

The reroll 1s mean that Plasma has less risk of overheat, especially the heavy variants while moving. Plasma cannons, heavy incinerators, and macro incinerators are almost slain/mortal wound proof instead of far more likely(glad that my redemptor can swap main guns). The rest of the plasma weapons also benefit from reroll 1s without a captain babysitter.

Said it elsewhere, but will repeat here. Mechanized successor IH is gonna be the way to go. Tac squads with SB and a plasma cannon clock in at 78 points. Support a passel of those with multiple razorbacks, backline dreads and flyers and you've got a fast, lethal loadout that can fight on terms of their choosing.

Qyleterys wrote:

 Kithail wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
@ Kithail, why aggressors vs centurions? Is there something i am missing? Centurions seem to have more wounds and be a bigger threat in cc and for hoard clearing.

I am asking because i havent pulled the trigger on them yet and i would like to make sure i am not wasting 150$ on 6 of these guys.

Nothing is better at horde clearance than aggressors. Remember you can infiltrate them now without having counted as moving aand shoot twice for literally hundreds of shots. It is a suicide unit but the amount of shots with Shrike nearby (add a lieutenant to rub salt) is insane. 6 have good chances of getting some to survive and fist someone anus in the next charge phase.

EDIT: I think that blob of 6 aggressors with shrike will be seen a lot in RG lists. You even reroll the 9" charge with him around and he adds some oomph. Second turn you can fall back with survivors with the RG strat and shoot some character in the face and then charge a tank along with shrike. Even if the enemy dedicates a lot of firepower to erase them fron existence, well, you have the rest of the army to keep shooting. T5 12W and 2+ for anything outside 12" is surprisingly survivable.

Shrike only allows rerolls for charging Jump pack and Phobos units

This is true and I stand corrected

Sterling191 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
You know what? I keep forgetting repulsors have PotMS.

New Dex and supplements are almost like GW is smacking everyone who cried "Primaris are replacing old marines, old marines are going to get squatted" over the head with a big no sign.

IH super doctrine is very useful for 2 things:

Maneuverability with heavy weapons.

Supercharging plasma.

Multimeltas become more useful with relentless, no longer limiting them to a 12" radius of board denial; but an actual weapon to move toward the enemy armor(-1 to hit isn't that bad but I am still having trouble not thinking of them like they were in older editions).
Dread-walls start moving in for the attack at full capacity again, meaning left arms can be fists again.
Preds, razors, and vindys are all more mobile.

The reroll 1s mean that Plasma has less risk of overheat, especially the heavy variants while moving. Plasma cannons, heavy incinerators, and macro incinerators are almost slain/mortal wound proof instead of far more likely(glad that my redemptor can swap main guns). The rest of the plasma weapons also benefit from reroll 1s without a captain babysitter.

Said it elsewhere, but will repeat here. Mechanized successor IH is gonna be the way to go. Tac squads with SB and a plasma cannon clock in at 78 points. Support a passel of those with multiple razorbacks, backline dreads and flyers and you've got a fast, lethal loadout that can fight on terms of their choosing.

Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but why successors? The buffs offered by mainline Iron Hands seem really potent for dreads, razorbacks, and fliers.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
You know what? I keep forgetting repulsors have PotMS.

New Dex and supplements are almost like GW is smacking everyone who cried "Primaris are replacing old marines, old marines are going to get squatted" over the head with a big no sign.

IH super doctrine is very useful for 2 things:

Maneuverability with heavy weapons.

Supercharging plasma.

Multimeltas become more useful with relentless, no longer limiting them to a 12" radius of board denial; but an actual weapon to move toward the enemy armor(-1 to hit isn't that bad but I am still having trouble not thinking of them like they were in older editions).
Dread-walls start moving in for the attack at full capacity again, meaning left arms can be fists again.
Preds, razors, and vindys are all more mobile.

The reroll 1s mean that Plasma has less risk of overheat, especially the heavy variants while moving. Plasma cannons, heavy incinerators, and macro incinerators are almost slain/mortal wound proof instead of far more likely(glad that my redemptor can swap main guns). The rest of the plasma weapons also benefit from reroll 1s without a captain babysitter.

.

Said it elsewhere, but will repeat here. Mechanized successor IH is gonna be the way to go. Tac squads with SB and a plasma cannon clock in at 78 points. Support a passel of those with multiple razorbacks, backline dreads and flyers and you've got a fast, lethal loadout that can fight on terms of their choosing.

My thoughts are similar except I was going to work with intercessors and impulsors. A few tacs and assbacks mixed in might not hurt

Waaaghpower wrote:

Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but why successors? The buffs offered by mainline Iron Hands seem really potent for dreads, razorbacks, and fliers.

Most dreads dont have a damage table, and VenDreads (including the Chappy) are already packing the 6+++. Likewise, permacover for the entire army is far more valuable than said 6+++, especially for infantry. Yes flyers can in theory be a smidge more robust with enhanced tables, but in 8th you're either at full health or you're dead. If you're dead set on running everything in the world with a damage table, you can take the double wounds trait as a successor. It's not worth it though, as in doing so you open up your character dreadnoughts to fire.

Factor in a free wound reroll for MSU teams, twinlas units, etc, and you've got a highly accurate, mobile force.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Khornatedemon wrote:

My thoughts are similar except I was going to work with intercessors and impulsors. A few tacs and assbacks mixed in might not hurt.

Could work, but I'm not on sold on non-DW Stalker Intercessors, they dont get to haul heavy weapons, and the Impulsor just doesnt have the firepower that the Razorback is packing. Even with the missile and Ironhail, it's gonna underperform a SB+TwinLas or SB + Chaingun Razorback.

Impulsors plus Heavy Hellblasters is another discussion entirely, and I definitely think they've got a place in an IH-pattern list.