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Khornatedemon wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Thinking of a dirty combo with the Iron Hands. Take a redemptor, give it March if the ancients, then the gorgon's chain relic, then pay another CP to give him the all flesh is weak warlord trait. Obviously near an ironstone holder. Now the redemptor is rocking a 4+ invul and -1 to wound at range with the usual dreadnought shennagins like halving damage with a 5+ fnp. Come at me bro indeed for only around 150pts of unkillable awesomeness.

Dreads cant take relics.

Pretty sure there's a Strat in the IH supplement to make a Dread a character, and therefore eligible for Warlord Traits and Relics.

Edit: I was wrong.

^^^ previous posters

Darn, missed the fact that vehicles can't take relics. Figured too good to be true. Back to the drawing board.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Dreads cant take relics.

Pretty sure there's a Strat in the IH supplement to make a Dread a character, and therefore eligible for Warlord Traits and Relics.

Vehicle keyworded units cannot take relics. It's an explicit prohibition in the base marine dex and supplementary dexes, not one imparted by a lack of the Character keyword.

Does the IH supplement have the same restriction? Because if anyone could lift it, it'd be them.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Does the IH supplement have the same restriction? Because if anyone could lift it, it'd be them.

It does. I'm literally looking at it in the review videos now. (08:04 in the GMG IH supplement review)

Sterling191 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Does the IH supplement have the same restriction? Because if anyone could lift it, it'd be them.

It does. I'm literally looking at it in the review videos now.

Well dingus. I wanted to give an Ironclad the Ironstone, for maximum survivability on the carrier.

Sterling191 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Does the IH supplement have the same restriction? Because if anyone could lift it, it'd be them.

It does. I'm literally looking at it in the review videos now. (08:04 in the GMG IH supplement review)

Just a quick note, even if it lacked the vehicles cannot take relics of medusa(or again with special issue wargear); it would have also had to change the wording for both at the end of the paragraph ("...count as chapter relics for all rules purposes).

I am glad GW did the copy-paste-replace chapter keyword instead of trying to make a snowflake variant(no matter how fluffy) in this instance.

Azuza001 wrote:
Problem is other than the bike captain the bikers dont want to be in cc. Otherwise its not a bad idea.

Bikers can have chainswords now, so that's 3 attacks each after the charge, assaulting for clearing chaff and hiding from shooting. Then next round use feigned retreat to fall back 14" (16 for scout bikes), shoot, and assault something else. Let characters on bikes do the heaving lifting.

Although it's true that bikes can be trapped in cc, unlike jump packs. But it would be possible to do a Swift and Deadly JP captain with a bunch of JP Vanguard Vets--slower and more random than bikes, but can always fall back.


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Also I was looking at the possibility of a Raven Guard librarian to infiltrate in LoS-blocking terrain at the center of the table, to attempt and deny key psychic powers in turn one. Shutting down one warptime or one reroll power might be worth the potential sacrifice if it disrupts the enemy plan enough (thinking about those Shining Spears again).

At first I was looking at the Phobos librarian because of the native, free infiltrate ability. But the Obscuration discipline just doesn't have anything that obviously meshes with what Raven Guard want to do. If he could take even generic librarian powers, that would be okay, but no dice.

But Umbramancy offers a couple of good options for a generic RG librarian, mainly Enveloping Darkness to remove overwatch from a unit about to be assaulted, and Shadowstep to either pluck that wounded warlord out of a fight he's losing, or to send the librarian to safety when he's threatened. The Str9 of Spectral Blade is tempting, but with only 3 base attacks, the generic librarian doesn't benefit that much.

Umbral Form seems too chancy. A better invul save option might be the Cloak of Shadows relic. The librarian isn't planning to leave that terrain piece anyway (as long as it blocks LoS), so anything that comes up close to get him will still have to deal with the 3++, even in close combat, without the librarian having to roll a psychic test to get it. If he gets in trouble, just shadowstep to terrain across the board.

The problem, unlike the Phobos librarian, is on getting him deployed forward on turn one. Strike from the Shadows or a JP deepstrike won't work until turn 2 at the earliest, and is subject to screening. So probably it would have to be positioning plus Infiltration for an extra move+advance (but only if you have first turn) or piggybacking on the warlord's Master of Ambush power. Or Shadowstep if you have first turn.

You can take the Tome of Mal-something to give any Librarian one power from the basic space marine list, I believe.

So I have been looking at iron hands and wondering if your taking units with lots of heavy weapons but not needing the dmg table option is there a combo for successor chapters that would take full advantage of the iron hands super doctrine?

Azuza001 wrote:
So I have been looking at iron hands and wondering if your taking units with lots of heavy weapons but not needing the dmg table option is there a combo for successor chapters that would take full advantage of the iron hands super doctrine?

Essentially running heavy weapon squads with no vehicles you mean? Probably stealthy and master artisans

Took a second look at the trusty old TH/SS Terminators; with Fury of the First and Honour the Chapter they do ~26 damage to a Knight, and with a bike Chaplain they can now reliably assault out of Deep Strike. Saves a lot of CP compared to a Smashcaptain.

I like TH/SS terminators, but how many CP is a smashcaptain?

For assault terminators, I’m seeing 1 for Fury of the First, 3 for Honor the chapter, and possibly 1 more for the command reroll in the 33% of attempts that the chaplain botches his litany test.

Also, I don’t remember if the previous codex version of Honor the Chapter was at the end of the close combat phase, but it is now. So anything in HtH with a knight has to weather a round of stomping. How many TH/SS terminators are we talking about here?


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bmsattler wrote:
You can take the Tome of Mal-something to give any Librarian one power from the basic space marine list, I believe.

Thanks for the tip, and it looked good, but then I checked and the Tome of Malcador only allows the extra power to be from a discipline that the librarian has access to. So Phobos are still restricted to Obscuration.

But I did then notice the Reliquary of Galthamor, which would increase the disruption effect of a forward-deployed librarian (or any primaris model really) by making the opponent’s psychic tests harder, and even dangerous.

bmsattler wrote:
You can take the Tome of Mal-something to give any Librarian one power from the basic space marine list, I believe.

They nerfed it to take the third power from the same as the ones before. Bit you can take any chapter specific powers for phobos as well, just not the basic ones.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
I like TH/SS terminators, but how many CP is a smashcaptain?

For assault terminators, I’m seeing 1 for Fury of the First, 3 for Honor the chapter, and possibly 1 more for the command reroll in the 33% of attempts that the chaplain botches his litany test.

A true BA smashcaptain has angels wings, TH, SS. 2CP for a 3D6 charge, 1CP for red rampage (+d3 attacks), 3CP for honor the chapter at the end of the fight phase, or 2CP to fight again should he die. Very CP hungry, but only 124 pts. Only one model, so very little space needed. And with JP he can charge across screens as if they werent there.

 p5freak wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
I like TH/SS terminators, but how many CP is a smashcaptain?

For assault terminators, I’m seeing 1 for Fury of the First, 3 for Honor the chapter, and possibly 1 more for the command reroll in the 33% of attempts that the chaplain botches his litany test.

A true BA smashcaptain has angels wings, TH, SS. 2CP for a 3D6 charge, 1CP for red rampage (+d3 attacks), 3CP for honor the chapter at the end of the fight phase, or 2CP to fight again should he die. Very CP hungry, but only 124 pts. Only one model, so very little space needed. And with JP he can charge across screens as if they werent there.

You forgot about the Black Rage stratagem.

Pandabeer wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
I like TH/SS terminators, but how many CP is a smashcaptain?

For assault terminators, I’m seeing 1 for Fury of the First, 3 for Honor the chapter, and possibly 1 more for the command reroll in the 33% of attempts that the chaplain botches his litany test.

A true BA smashcaptain has angels wings, TH, SS. 2CP for a 3D6 charge, 1CP for red rampage (+d3 attacks), 3CP for honor the chapter at the end of the fight phase, or 2CP to fight again should he die. Very CP hungry, but only 124 pts. Only one model, so very little space needed. And with JP he can charge across screens as if they werent there.

You forgot about the Black Rage stratagem.

Right, another CP

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

bmsattler wrote:
You can take the Tome of Mal-something to give any Librarian one power from the basic space marine list, I believe.

Thanks for the tip, and it looked good, but then I checked and the Tome of Malcador only allows the extra power to be from a discipline that the librarian has access to. So Phobos are still restricted to Obscuration.

No they aren't. Not completely, anyway. They can take Umbramancy in place of Obscuration. Can't really give them Librarius powers, though.

The Raven Guard supplement in particular says:

"LIBRARIAN models in RAVEN GUARD Detachments can know all of their psychic powers from the Umbramancy discipline instead of the Librarius or Obscuration disciplines."

Page 62, right near the top. This is true for all the supplements.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
I like TH/SS terminators, but how many CP is a smashcaptain?

For assault terminators, I’m seeing 1 for Fury of the First, 3 for Honor the chapter, and possibly 1 more for the command reroll in the 33% of attempts that the chaplain botches his litany test.

Also, I don’t remember if the previous codex version of Honor the Chapter was at the end of the close combat phase, but it is now. So anything in HtH with a knight has to weather a round of stomping. How many TH/SS terminators are we talking about here?

Just the minimum five. It's more expensive than a Smash Captain, but it costs less CP and you don't have to sacrifice your Warlord to use them.

Xirax wrote:

bmsattler wrote:
You can take the Tome of Mal-something to give any Librarian one power from the basic space marine list, I believe.

They nerfed it to take the third power from the same as the ones before. Bit you can take any chapter specific powers for phobos as well, just not the basic ones.

Oh, right. That makes sense. Forgot about that.

I've been coming around on Obscuration for Raven Guard, though, even without any other phobos models.

A Smite + Mind Raid every turn that he survives would be annoying, and might score the odd extra CP. Mind Raid has the advantage of being able to target characters for the mortal wound, which probably won't make a huge difference (except with weedy characters like warlocks), but might force an opponent to have to send somebody after the librarian because it's hard to shift the character in cover with the RG strat + camo cloak.

Unlike Tremor Shells, Tenebrous Curse can target characters for the slowdown (as long as they don't fly) and costs no CP to use. Since it happens before the shooting phase, that could sometimes save you the tremor shot, or allow you to slow a third unit.

If the librarian's hiding place is LoS-blocking, then Temporal Corridor can work as a psychic fire-and-fade: pop out, do a Mind Raid, then Temporal Corridor back into hiding.

In Spikey Bits there is an article about the 4 best IH models/units.

https://spikeybits.com/2019/09/these-are-the-4-best-space-marine-units-for-iron-hands-now.html

Their answer is
- IH Iron Father Malkaan Feirros
- IH Razorback w/ assault cannons
- IH Leviathan w/ storm cannons
- IH Storm Talon w/ assault cannons

MF has a lot of synergy with units nearby but I think the three tanks/transports are not a must have in an IH army.
Thoughts?

 wuestenfux wrote:
In Spikey Bits there is an article about the 4 best IH models/units.

https://spikeybits.com/2019/09/these-are-the-4-best-space-marine-units-for-iron-hands-now.html

Their answer is
- IH Iron Father Malkaan Feirros
- IH Razorback w/ assault cannons
- IH Leviathan w/ storm cannons
- IH Storm Talon w/ assault cannons

MF has a lot of synergy with units nearby but I think the three tanks/transports are not a must have in an IH army.
Thoughts?

Storm Cannon Leviathan is a must have in basically all marine lists, but even more so in Iron Hands. It's nigh on unkillable, kicks out great firepower (on the move in IH). Storm Talon gets a nice buff as IH, but maybe not essential. Assault Razorbacks are great too, but again, maybe down to preference (and maybe still better with Bobby G).

Storm Cannon Leviathan is a must have in basically all marine lists, but even more so in Iron Hands.

But its FW and so not allowed in all tourneys.

Spiky bitz gets half their gak wrong, consistently.

Fierros is an auto-include in Iron hands with vehicles, this is true. He is a force multiplier.

Asscan backs have always been good; move and fire, with double remaining wounds, reroll 1's, and 5+ overwatch is amazing. But the same can be said for any razorback, or predator, or whirlwind, or... you get my point.

Levi is just bonkers-broken, but FW often is.

Stormtalon: see asscan back.

The true power of Iron hands is in the survivability uptick(which only matters when it functions, they are either stoic or dead), overwatch on 5+(this is what really ruins opponent's days, especially the reroll 1's on heavy weapons), and the mobile gunline(move and fire reroll 1's heavy weapons). An all Infantry Tac + devs oldmarines Ironhands list can be just as potent and devastating as a vehicle-heavy list, especially when you take bolter discipline into account. Mixing the 2 or dread-supported footsloggers can do very well.

Razorbacks in general are tasty in any doctrine that allows them to shoot n scoot without incurring the heavy weapons penalty. They're a great combination of relatively shooty, relatively robust, and relatively cheap. I expect to see them get a lot more play in 8.5e (to be clear, they werent slouches before codex 2.0, theyre just flat out better now).

Now if the Predator wasnt such a goddamn dumpster fire, it may have been a different story, but it isnt so here we are.

Yeah the spikybits thing is basically wrong. The unit that benefits most is the repulsor executioner. Feirros and the ironstone relic allow you to survive going second against another shooty army, fix your tanks, then start murdering things.

It’s true that all vehicles benefit but you can’t keep many razorbacks in range of the ironstone. And they get tied up in melee. Repulsors don’t.

Flyers for IH are certainly worth considering. They extend your threat range and help winkle ensues out of cover.

What's the best way of making a terminator army with these new codex?
3 units of regular termies, 3 units of hammers... And then what? Some land raiders or some older termies suits?
And what chapter? First founding or descendants?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Levi is just bonkers-broken, but FW often is.

Nope. You're going to defend this statement right now as you're literally incorrect.


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Doctor-boom wrote:
What's the best way of making a terminator army with these new codex?
3 units of regular termies, 3 units of hammers... And then what? Some land raiders or some older termies suits?
And what chapter? First founding or descendants?

Land Raiders are still bad because they can't drive over a single model like a Gaunt.

Stormravens would be where it's at if you want to transport them.

Mandragola wrote:

It’s true that all vehicles benefit but you can’t keep many razorbacks in range of the ironstone. And they get tied up in melee. Repulsors don’t.

Papa cybork's deathball parking lot is a trap play.

Razorbacks are cheap enough that you shouldn't want to crowd that many of them around an Ironstone.