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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
White Scars have a Fall Back and Shoot Strat I think, but it doesn't do much with just two Heavy Flamers and two Melta Guns.

When you're packing SCAs it absolutely does.

Outflank
Advance and shoot
Fall back and Shoot
-1 to be hit after advancing
Ignore overwatch
Ignore cover
Overwatch on a 5

Are all in the WS toolkit and can be applied to a Leviathan through various vectors, some more efficient than others.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
White Scars have a Fall Back and Shoot Strat I think, but it doesn't do much with just two Heavy Flamers and two Melta Guns.

It appears everyone has this strat.

Actually I don't think Iron Hands do, do they?

bananathug wrote:
One turn only for that relic actually makes a lot of sense. Use it turn 1 so you don't get blown off the board but you are not forever invulnerable.

If only GW would come down to this cesspit every once in a while to discover a hidden gem among the trash.

UM work well for levis (no penalty for moving, fall back and still shoot, re-roll wounds vs 1 target for them is big).
I like them as DW (if only we had a way to get rid of the movement penalty). Deepstriking, re-roll 1's to wound and the ability to get +1 to wound (big if you are s7).
Work well as space wolves (ability to ignore all negs to hit at BS 2+, yes please).
Heck, deepstriking them as WS (can white scars DS dreads?) works really good too.

Problem with the rest of these lists is the lack of armor saturation. With IH you are running the repulsor/executioner so you are fielding more t8 units than most armies can deal with and now your enemy actually has to make bad choices about what to shoot and the Levi is the worst choice out of several bad choices.

Yes, White Scars can outflank everything that has the White Scars keyword, from Scouts to Mastodons and Thunderhawks. I was honestly surprised it didn't get FAQ'ed to be Infantry and Bikers only. Still need to try it on my Relic Contemptor, might even be worth slapping an extra Cyclone Missile Launcher on it to take maximum advantage of the guaranteed round of shooting.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
White Scars have a Fall Back and Shoot Strat I think, but it doesn't do much with just two Heavy Flamers and two Melta Guns.

It appears everyone has this strat.

Actually I don't think Iron Hands do, do they?

Don't have the book. I thought I saw it mentioned.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Actually I don't think Iron Hands do, do they?

They dont.

Barring character dreadnoughts and the 6" free move after fighting WLT, Iron Hands are a very predictable supplement by comparison to the other three released so far.

Sterling191 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Actually I don't think Iron Hands do, do they?

They dont.

Barring character dreadnoughts and the 6" free move after fighting WLT, Iron Hands are a very predictable supplement by comparison to the other three released so far.

What they do, though, they do well, and that's what matters for the Supplements.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


The Predator wasn't great in the old dex, but people would take 3+ for killshot. Then the rule of 3 came out, so people at first took only 3. They started seeing 1 focus-fired off the board. Loss of killshot as a strat didn't kill the pred, rule of 3 did. Now with IH a dakka pred has gained: survivability, accuracy, and a few shenanigans. It is still worse than the Invictor Warsuit(with ACs) on unaugmented average; but when we apply the same augmentations the predator wins out(slightly) on everything except chaff.

Only one problem: no more Killshot

That thing that I specifically addressed through the paragraph you quoted? That killshot?

Killshot has been irrelevant and useless for about a year now. The only times you should have been able to get a killshot off was first battle round, when you had first turn. If one of your pedators wasn't dead by the end of your opponent's first turn; you had a bad opponent.

Same goes for linebreaker bombardment.

P5freak: 15 points cheaper. Yes, adds up over time; and the "benefits" you get with the predator does just add more of a price difference. But, the Pred Annihilater was already a sub-optimal choice vs a twin las-back since back when AV was a thing(yes, being better during the small window when killshot was usable). If you want a predator with lascannons you stuck them on the sponsons of a destructor.

Las-backs are also better due to not taking up slots; they should always be the unit of choice for relatively cheap mobile lascannons.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's is hugely over powered compared to the other space marine options. That is all that matters. The other options ether need to get better (I serious doubt redepmptors/ and contemptors need to get any better) or levi needs to get nerfed. I'd say off the bat it needs 4 less shots in the storm cannon build and it should probably move much slower too at it's cost.

The leviathan needs nerfed because one subfaction traits and relics can be stacked to make it broken, while still not actually making normal dreadnaughts worthwhile taking and your solution is nerfing one of the 3to5 actually playable dreadnaughts to being unplayable by any other subfactions.

Like seriously weren't you the one complaining about the imbalance between subfactions? Rebalance the strategums and relics don't make everyone else have a bunch of unplayable overcosted trash just so one subfaction traits and relics dont mkae a unit broken fix the subfaction.

Like are you just into self loathing or something as all your "balance improvements" are making the codex more imbalanced and making playing marine's less fun.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

That thing that I specifically addressed through the paragraph you quoted? That killshot

Totally misread your original post, entirely my fault there.

Ice_can wrote:

The leviathan needs nerfed because one subfaction traits and relics can be stacked to make it broken, while still not actually making normal dreadnaughts worthwhile taking and your solution is nerfing one of the 3to5 actually playable dreadnaughts to being unplayable by any other subfactions.

Like seriously weren't you the one complaining about the imbalance between subfactions? Rebalance the strategums and relics don't make everyone else have a bunch of unplayable overcosted trash just so one subfaction traits and relics dont mkae a unit broken fix the subfaction.

Like are you just into self loathing or something as all your "balance improvements" are making the codex more imbalanced and making playing marine's less fun.

If you havent noticed, Xeno's approach to balance is "this thing annoys me, BURRRRRNNNNNNNINNNNNNAAAAAAAAATE" without any additional considerations.

Sorry; no problem.

Ice_can wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's is hugely over powered compared to the other space marine options. That is all that matters. The other options ether need to get better (I serious doubt redepmptors/ and contemptors need to get any better) or levi needs to get nerfed. I'd say off the bat it needs 4 less shots in the storm cannon build and it should probably move much slower too at it's cost.

The leviathan needs nerfed because one subfaction traits and relics can be stacked to make it broken, while still not actually making normal dreadnaughts worthwhile taking and your solution is nerfing one of the 3to5 actually playable dreadnaughts to being unplayable by any other subfactions.

Like seriously weren't you the one complaining about the imbalance between subfactions? Rebalance the strategums and relics don't make everyone else have a bunch of unplayable overcosted trash just so one subfaction traits and relics dont mkae a unit broken fix the subfaction.

Like are you just into self loathing or something as all your "balance improvements" are making the codex more imbalanced and making playing marine's less fun.

There is a clear and obvious power gap between levi and every marine unit. Not going to argue about it because it is readily apparent. As an owner of one I have no issue with being brought down a tad. 16 shots is not burnante level. It's still the most durable unit we have. It should also be slower because it is bigger and clumsier.

Even if Ironhands get drawn in to realms of realism with power level the levi is still a problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's is hugely over powered compared to the other space marine options. That is all that matters. The other options ether need to get better (I serious doubt redepmptors/ and contemptors need to get any better) or levi needs to get nerfed. I'd say off the bat it needs 4 less shots in the storm cannon build and it should probably move much slower too at it's cost.

The leviathan needs nerfed because one subfaction traits and relics can be stacked to make it broken, while still not actually making normal dreadnaughts worthwhile taking and your solution is nerfing one of the 3to5 actually playable dreadnaughts to being unplayable by any other subfactions.

Like seriously weren't you the one complaining about the imbalance between subfactions? Rebalance the strategums and relics don't make everyone else have a bunch of unplayable overcosted trash just so one subfaction traits and relics dont mkae a unit broken fix the subfaction.

Like are you just into self loathing or something as all your "balance improvements" are making the codex more imbalanced and making playing marine's less fun.

Levi was already the most broken unit marines had access to. Seriously brought down to earth by every other marine unit sucking massive doink. Now marines have a lot of great units and whats funny is the levi has been buffed a lot by doctrines and super traits too. I seriously havn't even played a levi since the new codex even as ultramarines because I would automatically win the game and these are more are less practice games. Plus no one else has an 8.5 codex. I'd bring it to a tournament only.

Sometimes it seems I am the only reasonable person on this fourm. I get accused all the time of speaking in hyperbole and being a marine fanboy ect. Yet...I routinely call for nerfs to marine aspects that are too strong and call out imbalance where I see it. My perspective is pretty unique because very few of you play 3-4 games a week and own 10 armies...I do. I could balance the game overnight with much better rules and everyone would be able to play the way they want to play and have fun and have a chance to win. The only answer is this is not what GW wants because it really would be easy and could be done very quickly with basically just common sense.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's is hugely over powered compared to the other space marine options. That is all that matters. The other options ether need to get better (I serious doubt redepmptors/ and contemptors need to get any better) or levi needs to get nerfed. I'd say off the bat it needs 4 less shots in the storm cannon build and it should probably move much slower too at it's cost.

The leviathan needs nerfed because one subfaction traits and relics can be stacked to make it broken, while still not actually making normal dreadnaughts worthwhile taking and your solution is nerfing one of the 3to5 actually playable dreadnaughts to being unplayable by any other subfactions.

Like seriously weren't you the one complaining about the imbalance between subfactions? Rebalance the strategums and relics don't make everyone else have a bunch of unplayable overcosted trash just so one subfaction traits and relics dont mkae a unit broken fix the subfaction.

Like are you just into self loathing or something as all your "balance improvements" are making the codex more imbalanced and making playing marine's less fun.

There is a clear and obvious power gap between levi and every marine unit. Not going to argue about it because it is readily apparent. As an owner of one I have no issue with being brought down a tad. 16 shots is not burnante level. It's still the most durable unit we have. It should also be slower because it is bigger and clumsier.

Even if Ironhands get drawn in to realms of realism with power level the levi is still a problem.

So the one unit that was not trash in your earlier posts is now a problem unit that is now in need of a nerf?
Like seriously who actually has tried to make dreadnaughts work for marine's, I have and I can tell you now out side of iron hands they are still poor units that dont have a justifications for their points costs, the FW ones are not OP they are actually just at the playable level.

GW wrote unplayable poor rules for codex dreadnaughts, but don't have the guts to admit they screwed up on the stats.

A T7 3+ save isn't worth anything with the league of lethality in the game, if they wanted to keep them T7 they needed to go to a 2+ Sv flat across them all.

That half damage strategum now punishes list that take more than 1 dreadnaught.
It's another amateur work around instead of addressing the route cause of the issue.

The Invictor was basically an admission current dreads were underpowered, but instead of fixing them they made a new unit for us all to buy. Now to wait for the 130pt flying T8 Primaris predator...

Without the ability to stack buffs, the Leviathan is no stronger pound-for-pound than a Repulsor Executioner, Invictor, or the Redemptor. Its OPness comes from the ability to stack too many good abilities into to dense of a space, in the same way that 7th edition Deathstar units could stack a half dozen buffs into a single otherwise-balanced squad and create imbalance. (And without any stratagems, I'd honestly put the Leviathan in the B tier, maybe B+.)

Waaaghpower wrote:
Without the ability to stack buffs, the Leviathan is no stronger pound-for-pound than a Repulsor Executioner, Invictor, or the Redemptor. Its OPness comes from the ability to stack too many good abilities into to dense of a space, in the same way that 7th edition Deathstar units could stack a half dozen buffs into a single otherwise-balanced squad and create imbalance. (And without any stratagems, I'd honestly put the Leviathan in the B tier, maybe B+.)

It's better than all three of those units.

It's one of the only marine vehicles that comes with an invuln.

Lemondish wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Without the ability to stack buffs, the Leviathan is no stronger pound-for-pound than a Repulsor Executioner, Invictor, or the Redemptor. Its OPness comes from the ability to stack too many good abilities into to dense of a space, in the same way that 7th edition Deathstar units could stack a half dozen buffs into a single otherwise-balanced squad and create imbalance. (And without any stratagems, I'd honestly put the Leviathan in the B tier, maybe B+.)

It's better than all three of those units.

It's one of the only marine vehicles that comes with an invuln.

It also costs more than a Land Raider and has very short range and mediocre speed.

I do agree on the leviathan. Its the single most overpowered and amazing model so far.


Xenomancer i would appreciate if you would use the time to rebalance and open a new thread for it in this forum. I am seriously interested on your insight on this subject.

I swear, vs many targets the Deredeo point for point out shoots the Leviathan and no one except me even likes those.

I’d agree it used to be like a B/B+shooter with A+ for marine survivability. Now it’s A++ surv for anyone, but it’s still only a B+ shooter. That means opponents should be killing anything else better with less durability first.

I kind of like my Deredeo. It is a totally different unit to the Leviathan, but only costs ~60% of what a leviathan does.

For all the fuss about IH leviathans I'm not sure they're the best unit for Iron Hands to take, or that Iron Hands are the best codex to use for them.

First up, the leviathan doesn't get one of the key IH buffs - the free 5++ aura. This is a huge benefit to repulsors, redemptor dreads and so on - and of no benefit to the leviathan which is paying for a 4++ already.

It does of course benefit from the Ironstone, repairs, the 6++ and so on. But its wounds are actually very expensive so the 6++ is less efficient than on a lot of other units.

It does of course also get the marine strat to halve damage - like a leviathan from any other chapter would have.

So the point is, an IH leviathan is still tougher than anyone else's - but not by a stupid amount. And there are very strong reasons to take them for other chapters - things like falling back and shooting or the (rumoured) +1 to damage for Fists are really great for Leviathans too.

On the other hand, an Iron Hands redemptor is far tougher than one from another chapter. In fact it's probably about as tough as most other people's leviathans are, if not more so. But it costs a fraction of what a leviathan does, and it comes with a big hand for wrecking stuff in melee, so the leviathan's major weakness is a strength for the redemptor... at least some of the time. It doesn't do as much shooty damage as the Leviathan of course, but it does a very respectable amount of dakka, and is now able to advance upfield while firing with no penalty if it wants to.

And the same can be said of the repulsor. Good luck dropping one of these in a turn. And again, where the leviathan has to watch out for being charged the repulsor has its -2" off charge moves trick, and a pretty similar wall of bullets to chuck at things to the leviathan's. But even if you do charge the thing it will just fly off and laser-destroy your face for you.

An indestructable Iron Hands dread is definitely a problem for an opponent. It's far from unbeatable though. Once it's in combat, that's kind of that.

I suggest you play the leviathan outside 5+ invu together with something else with invul to create a strong flank. There is plenty of traffic around ferros already.

The 5+ invu and overwatch is good to all kind of infantry also basically making them as durable as terminators.

It is possible to make the whole army to have invulns. Or at least most of them.


For example, take leviathan on flank and pair it with a dread (or another leviathan) that has invus and put deredeos near ferros + liutenant with agressors and intercessors. If something scary shoots use 5+ feel no pain or halve damage strategem if something charges use overwatch strategem and if something have taken damage use repair from ferros and techmarine who is in flank with liutenant. One unit of heavy weapon + storm bolter (if spare points) tacticals for back objective.

Ferros / techmarine take ironstone and repair relic and one liutenant takes teeth of terra.

Should be cost effective. In my opinion 2d6 shot whirlwind with stormbolter might be a nice addition.


With some kind of setup all infantry iron hands should also be viable because of 5+ invu, feel no pain and overwatch. With feel no pain strategem intercessors become as resilient as death guard terminators.

One idea would have only one vehicle, leviathan with reduce damage 1, halve strategem, repair, invu, fnp and so. Either shoot death guard type of infantry or that kind of vehicle.

Played my first game as ironhands.

My initial observations are that the damage output and durability are crazy as everyone has said.

In the spirit of fairness, days before our game, I chatted with my opponent and discussed all the ironhands abilities and rules, so he could try to prepare to deal with them.

For a firebase, I took two executioners, a gatling redemptor, a character venerable dread with lascannons and missile, a relic contemptor with lascannons and a razorback with assault cannons. I bubbled up with a techmarine, librarian with buffing abilities, chapter master and Feirros. Remaining points allowed me a screen of 3 minimum intercessor squads and 3 scout squads. Had the ironstone on one hq and the plus one to heal trait on the techmarine. I killed pretty much all of the opponents army except for one chaff unit. The downside is that I feel boxed in against fast melee armies. The opponent had a fast melee genestealer heavy tyrannid army with hiveguard support and some antitank units that had previously given my marines trouble. I basically just sat in the corner, barely moving and shot everything off the board while absorbing any antitank fire with no problem. We had plenty of terrain too. By the end of the game all my infantry were dead, and my vehicles were basically all at full health. Cool, I won, but it wasn't that fun for me or my opponent. The problem is that I love that these rules allow for an effective vehicle heavy space marine list, but I wish it were toned down at least a little. I don't play in a highly competitive environment, so I'll have to experiment with building a list that is effective and lets the theme shine, but isn't so unbalanced feeling.

I only mention the Deredeo cause I feel like its similar role to the Leviathan, but it's 2/3rd cousin. 2/3 the cost, 2/3 the damage, 2/3 the surv. Both are gun platforms with high rate of medium high str shots and both are among the few SM units with innate invulns.

And yeah, IH Redemptors still seem like the obvious dread pick to me. More survivability and if you do the mirror match vs another IH list, a Redemptor will do about as much damage as a Levi will since it's not nerfed by the Ironstone at all.

The above is what makes me kinda sad. I always wanted tougher marines, the IH traits made me plan to take them (even before hearing they'd be OP). And then their best toughness boosts are all for models I don't own. I wanted a tougher mobile mech army, not a tougher Executioner/Redemptor blob. Oh well. RG sound really cool too, even if they still die fast. ...Just need the dang codexes to arrive in the mail...

Deredeos can also get Heavy Bolters to match the range of their Autocannons instead of just the useless Heavy Flamers.

Mandragola wrote:

And the same can be said of the repulsor. Good luck dropping one of these in a turn. And again, where the leviathan has to watch out for being charged the repulsor has its -2" off charge moves trick, and a pretty similar wall of bullets to chuck at things to the leviathan's. But even if you do charge the thing it will just fly off and laser-destroy your face for you.

An indestructable Iron Hands dread is definitely a problem for an opponent. It's far from unbeatable though. Once it's in combat, that's kind of that.

You are overlooking the overwatch on 4+ stratagem. There wont be much left of any unit when it charges the leviathan. Its 2D6 automatic hits with heavy flamers at S5 AP-2 D1 (if within 8") and 10 hits with S7 AP-3 D2. If anything survives and gets within 1", and tries to surround the leviathan my characters will heroically intervene. Anything that survives gets hit by four S8 AP0 D1 attacks, and the characters. After that the leviathan walks away with student of history, and continues shooting next turn.

 p5freak wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

And the same can be said of the repulsor. Good luck dropping one of these in a turn. And again, where the leviathan has to watch out for being charged the repulsor has its -2" off charge moves trick, and a pretty similar wall of bullets to chuck at things to the leviathan's. But even if you do charge the thing it will just fly off and laser-destroy your face for you.

An indestructable Iron Hands dread is definitely a problem for an opponent. It's far from unbeatable though. Once it's in combat, that's kind of that.

You are overlooking the overwatch on 4+ stratagem. There wont be much left of any unit when it charges the leviathan. Its 2D6 automatic hits with heavy flamers at S5 AP-2 D1 (if within 8") and 10 hits with S7 AP-3 D2. If anything survives and gets within 1", and tries to surround the leviathan my characters will heroically intervene. Anything that survives gets hit by four S8 AP0 D1 attacks, and the characters. After that the leviathan walks away with student of history, and continues shooting next turn.

And once again the issue is your stacking 3 or 4 strategums and a battalions worth of CP into a single unit.
Still not a problem with the base unit design, it's poor strategum and subfaction rules interactions.

You can't have Ferrios and a Leviathian with Student of History, as Ferrios gets that Warlord trait automatically and you can't double up on it. That being said, can you use Student of History to withdraw if you're already base to base with an enemy model?

bmsattler wrote:
You can't have Ferrios and a Leviathian with Student of History, as Ferrios gets that Warlord trait automatically and you can't double up on it. That being said, can you use Student of History to withdraw if you're already base to base with an enemy model?

You can use both, you just dont make ferrios your warlord, you make your other charictor your warlord and then use the 2 strategums to give the dreadnaught charictor keyword then the strategum for a warlord trait on a non warlord.
You can consolidate in any direction so why would you not be able to consolidate when in base to base, even more janky it can be used to do some seriously janky thinks like charge fight, consolidate away, fight twice to pile in fight and consolidate away for 2 slappings with no comeback or counter punching against said charictor. That warlord trait really does need a serious FAQ.

Thanks for clarifying that for me. I thought named characters kept the warlord trait. I asked about basing as it was my understanding that you couldn't make a consolidate move if you were already base-to-base with an enemy model.

Its because you have to move closer to the enemy during a normal consolidate. If you are already base to base you can't move closer and thus you cant move.

Instead of spending 2CPs on making a leviathan a character and a student of history so it can consolidate out of combat (unless wrapped) you could just take a repulsor and leave Feirros with the trait. That's what I'd do.