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2020/03/29 00:36:25
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
bort wrote:The one I was waffling on more for a while there was Stealthy. Sure, the cover is easily the best when it works, but GW was piling on the ways to ignore cover and render your trait worthless. But with the nerf to IF armies that ignore cover will presumably be less common again.
I have moved away from taking stealthy myself. The tables I typically play on have enough terrain that my infantry can usually get cover without much issue. It is still helpful for vehicles but I have found long range marksmen and master artisan are my go to setup.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Yep. Stealthy and Marksmen are my go-to as a successor. I plan to experiment with Carcharodons soon after a recent thread on Proposed Rules. Tyberos doesn't offer too much but I don't mind that until it comes down to cutting points.
Why Marksmen? +3" doesn't seem like a huge deal to me unless it's for flamer and melta weapons and given that RG/RG successors love Phobos units with their forward deploying ability, it would probably let them get into range of whatever they want fairly easily. My thought is going for Stealthy + Master Artisans instead, Eliminators and Phobos Captains/Lieutenants would definitely appreciate the free reroll to hit and wound and even a Repulsor Executioner with a Heavy Laser Destroyer probably wouldn't mind a full reroll for one of its 4 shots either.
That extra three inches does a lot. When you wish you were an extra three inches closer so you can more successfully make a charge, apply the same logic to range weapons. It doesn't apply much to Tactical Marines, but everyone else loves it. Centurions with an even bigger threat range? Assault Bolt Intercessors throwing shots out from even further? Flamers actually being able to shoot from Deep Strike? Not to mention the deployment flexibility it gives for the whole army basically. Need to really squeeze into a corner for that Thunderfire? Sure no problem.
We have rerolls from HQ units and Dreads (for one CP a turn). All of our stuff is based around getting rerolls. Master Artisans adds too much redundancy to actually be effective, hence why people started being able to counter any successor Chapter trying to make use of it, and I pointed that out a while ago.
I suppose, but 3" is a way bigger difference for charges than for weapon ranges generally IMO since if you're forward deploying with Phobos units/master of ambushing/deep striking I don't think there are many units that are going to be out of range for most of your units. I can see it being helpful but in the case where your army is likely to be spread out and most units will be out of range of a captain/lieutenant's auras, I can see master artisans being useful. Both would probably require testing though.
Master Artisan is really good. It is better in MSU lists on things like whirlwinds and eliminators. It is also great on captains that are taking weapons with -1 to hit like thunder hammers. I have rolled lots of 2s in 8th so I know how helpful the extra reroll on them is. However it is very underwhelming on 10 man squads of intercessors or repulsor tanks. The bonus range works best on short and mid range weapons. For my RG, I have found running them as successors with master artisan and long range marksmen is best if I am deep striking assault centurions. I have found I get more work out of those guys with the 12 flamethrowers under tactical doctrine than I do a lot of times with the drills. It also gives my centurions a mean over watch. Several of my opponents have learned that the hard way. The usefulness of the successor traits is very list dependent in my experience.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Alright so I updated my Raptors Brigade a little bit as follows, which will be my plaything until I've gotten Carcharodons down:
x1 Lias Issodon, Warlord Trait: Echo of the Ravenspire
x1 Biker Captain, Storm Bolter, Teeth of Terra, Master of the Trifold Path: Master of Vigilance or Swift and Deadly
x1 Terminator Captain, Storm Shield, Chainfist, Wrist Mounted Grenade Launcher???, Token of Brotherhood: Armor of Shadows, Hero of the Chapter: The Imperium's Sword
x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x1 Ancient in Terminator Armor, Chapter Ancient, Relics of the Chapter: Emperor Ascendant or Righteous Hatred
The list plays the same as before for me. Everyone in the Elite slot and Lias will camp until T2 whilst the screens get cleared by the Attack Bikes and TFC, and then they drop down and cause a small amount of havoc. Biker Captain camps with the Stalkers and whatever Troops are nearby, and then rushes forward as necessary.
You can't take master of the tri fold path if a named character is your warlord. Also it doesn't work like hero of the chapter, it only gives a non named warlord character a second trait. Also you can't take the wrist mounded grenade launcher unless you take a powerfist.
Why echo of the ravenspire? If you use it you don't get Issodon's auras for a whole turn.
I was messing around with a Issodon bomb list before the local store closed due to COVID 19 and was having lots of success with it. I was running grav devs and 2 tac squads though.
2020/03/29 01:00:15
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Alright so I updated my Raptors Brigade a little bit as follows, which will be my plaything until I've gotten Carcharodons down:
x1 Lias Issodon, Warlord Trait: Echo of the Ravenspire
x1 Biker Captain, Storm Bolter, Teeth of Terra, Master of the Trifold Path: Master of Vigilance or Swift and Deadly
x1 Terminator Captain, Storm Shield, Chainfist, Wrist Mounted Grenade Launcher???, Token of Brotherhood: Armor of Shadows, Hero of the Chapter: The Imperium's Sword
x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x1 Ancient in Terminator Armor, Chapter Ancient, Relics of the Chapter: Emperor Ascendant or Righteous Hatred
The list plays the same as before for me. Everyone in the Elite slot and Lias will camp until T2 whilst the screens get cleared by the Attack Bikes and TFC, and then they drop down and cause a small amount of havoc. Biker Captain camps with the Stalkers and whatever Troops are nearby, and then rushes forward as necessary.
You can't take master of the tri fold path if a named character is your warlord. Also it doesn't work like hero of the chapter, it only gives a non named warlord character a second trait. Also you can't take the wrist mounded grenade launcher unless you take a powerfist.
Why echo of the ravenspire? If you use it you don't get Issodon's auras for a whole turn.
I was messing around with a Issodon bomb list before the local store closed due to COVID 19 and was having lots of success with it. I was running grav devs and 2 tac squads though.
For the wrist grenade launcher, that was just something Battlescribe had. I hadn't noticed the option and was more questioning it, which I forgot to put in the original post.
Hmm, I don't recall that caveat on Master of the Tri-Fold Path. If that's the case, Lias just won't be the Warlord and I can end up giving the Terminator a second Warlord Trait instead, which isn't the worst idea. HOWEVER, the idea behind Lias having it is that after the initial drop and things are low on his end, the now unsupported Stalkers will LOVE a Chapter Master reroll. He says "bye, Felicia" to the Sternguard and then for the last phase of the game things get cleaned up. Any remaining Sternguard will just get the Captain benefit, if that.
So if that's the case, Terminator Captain will be the regular Warlord with Iron Resolve (nice little combo there) and Master of the Tri-Fold should be Swift and Deadly. Biker Captain then gets Imperium's Sword, which is evil enough with Teeth of Terra.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/03/29 01:20:35
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/03/29 06:48:59
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Thoughts on a primaris list running multiple repulsors? I have a crimson fist army with 2 Repulsors and an Executioner but only the executioner gets on the table (It is usually fantastic) and i love to run another one and back them up with a solid wall of Intercessors and Aggressors.
2020/03/29 14:18:39
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Alright so I updated my Raptors Brigade a little bit as follows, which will be my plaything until I've gotten Carcharodons down:
x1 Lias Issodon, Warlord Trait: Echo of the Ravenspire
x1 Biker Captain, Storm Bolter, Teeth of Terra, Master of the Trifold Path: Master of Vigilance or Swift and Deadly
x1 Terminator Captain, Storm Shield, Chainfist, Wrist Mounted Grenade Launcher???, Token of Brotherhood: Armor of Shadows, Hero of the Chapter: The Imperium's Sword
x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x1 Ancient in Terminator Armor, Chapter Ancient, Relics of the Chapter: Emperor Ascendant or Righteous Hatred
The list plays the same as before for me. Everyone in the Elite slot and Lias will camp until T2 whilst the screens get cleared by the Attack Bikes and TFC, and then they drop down and cause a small amount of havoc. Biker Captain camps with the Stalkers and whatever Troops are nearby, and then rushes forward as necessary.
I really like your list ! Could you explain it a little bit ? Do you have any battle report ? And why so many stalkers ?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Alright so I updated my Raptors Brigade a little bit as follows, which will be my plaything until I've gotten Carcharodons down:
x1 Lias Issodon, Warlord Trait: Echo of the Ravenspire
x1 Biker Captain, Storm Bolter, Teeth of Terra, Master of the Trifold Path: Master of Vigilance or Swift and Deadly
x1 Terminator Captain, Storm Shield, Chainfist, Wrist Mounted Grenade Launcher???, Token of Brotherhood: Armor of Shadows, Hero of the Chapter: The Imperium's Sword
x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x1 Ancient in Terminator Armor, Chapter Ancient, Relics of the Chapter: Emperor Ascendant or Righteous Hatred
The list plays the same as before for me. Everyone in the Elite slot and Lias will camp until T2 whilst the screens get cleared by the Attack Bikes and TFC, and then they drop down and cause a small amount of havoc. Biker Captain camps with the Stalkers and whatever Troops are nearby, and then rushes forward as necessary.
I really like your list ! Could you explain it a little bit ? Do you have any battle report ? And why so many stalkers ?
I did a small explanation in there, and I fixed how the Warlord Traits would go in a post not far from it as I kinda fethed up on how Master of the Trifold Path works. Stalkers are for anti-tank and anything flying, which is ALWAYS going to be meta, and that's why I feel they're more important than basic Lascannons or anything like that. When it comes to Knights, I'm relying basically on the Super Doctrine. They're the main dangerous vehicle that's not flying, and if you want them to do anything if value you gotta invest in the CP to make them...characters!
I might have a small battle report as, if I lose, I heavily take down notes.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/03/30 14:34:08
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
The idea is to have the Centurions (ab)use Devout Push in comjuction with the Jump Chaplain's litany to zoom 6"+6"+D6"+4" across the board on turn 1, since you can use Devout Push in both your own and the opponent's turn. With plenty of chaff clearing units for turn 1 I should be in a decent position to shove multiple assault threats down the opponent's throat turn 2. The Apothecary with the Aurillian Shroud and Grimaldus with his 5++ litany makes sure the Assault Centurions are tough as nails.
Thoughts?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/30 14:47:20
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2020/03/30 16:39:08
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Gets two Litanies for the price of one, saving the CP for a Master of Sanctity. If I'm gonna be running a Chaplain for the 5++ anyway (which I totally am) I might as well bring Grimaldus to get an extra Deny as well as the additional Litany.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/31 00:03:12
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2020/03/31 00:24:47
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Gets two Litanies for the price of one, saving the CP for a Master of Sanctity. If I'm gonna be running a Chaplain for the 5++ anyway (which I totally am) I might as well bring Grimaldus to get an extra Deny as well as the additional Litany.
A Brigade is being ran, so CP shouldn't be that much an issue. Hell my Raptors use 6 before the game even starts (well actually 8 with Stranglehold). You'd be able to get a Relic that helps a bit more, and keep him a bit cheaper.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/03/31 01:01:53
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Wouldn't it be better to make the Phobos Captain the chapter master since he has the bonus range on his auras?
As far as relics go you could give the master of sanctity the ancient breviary and then give the jump chaplain something else. The relic crozius maybe?
As far as the extra pts goes you could upgrade the intercessor sergeant's weapons. Maybe take a thunder hammer.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/31 01:51:35
2020/03/31 23:45:02
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
So, popping in here: Has anyone looked at TH\SS terminators recently? With the rise of the GK paladin star I've realized that Transhuman Physiology+Good invuln=hard to kill, and am wondering if anyone else has tested it. I know terminators are a fair bit worse than paladins, but I also feel like you have a lot more tools out of the base SM codex to find a hammer for the terminator anvil, vs the gk who rely on the paladins for most of their non-smite output.
Swampmist wrote: So, popping in here: Has anyone looked at TH\SS terminators recently? With the rise of the GK paladin star I've realized that Transhuman Physiology+Good invuln=hard to kill, and am wondering if anyone else has tested it. I know terminators are a fair bit worse than paladins, but I also feel like you have a lot more tools out of the base SM codex to find a hammer for the terminator anvil, vs the gk who rely on the paladins for most of their non-smite output.
You'd probably be just better off going with a Smashplain or Smash Captain. Gk have exactly the correct tools to kill Terminators with SS, like Smites and easily done AP-1, so those extra wounds on the Terminators won't defeat the defense of basic Character protection. On top of that, Terminators are going to have a much harder time getting into melee.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/04/01 00:50:48
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Swampmist wrote: So, popping in here: Has anyone looked at TH\SS terminators recently? With the rise of the GK paladin star I've realized that Transhuman Physiology+Good invuln=hard to kill, and am wondering if anyone else has tested it. I know terminators are a fair bit worse than paladins, but I also feel like you have a lot more tools out of the base SM codex to find a hammer for the terminator anvil, vs the gk who rely on the paladins for most of their non-smite output.
You'd probably be just better off going with a Smashplain or Smash Captain. Gk have exactly the correct tools to kill Terminators with SS, like Smites and easily done AP-1, so those extra wounds on the Terminators won't defeat the defense of basic Character protection. On top of that, Terminators are going to have a much harder time getting into melee.
Oh, sorry. I was not talking about using them as a counter to GK, but rather noting that I want to re-evaluate them now that GK Paladins have shown how mathematically excellent 2+\4++ (or 3++ in the case of my suggestion) Transhuman can be.
Swampmist wrote: So, popping in here: Has anyone looked at TH\SS terminators recently? With the rise of the GK paladin star I've realized that Transhuman Physiology+Good invuln=hard to kill, and am wondering if anyone else has tested it. I know terminators are a fair bit worse than paladins, but I also feel like you have a lot more tools out of the base SM codex to find a hammer for the terminator anvil, vs the gk who rely on the paladins for most of their non-smite output.
You'd probably be just better off going with a Smashplain or Smash Captain. Gk have exactly the correct tools to kill Terminators with SS, like Smites and easily done AP-1, so those extra wounds on the Terminators won't defeat the defense of basic Character protection. On top of that, Terminators are going to have a much harder time getting into melee.
Oh, sorry. I was not talking about using them as a counter to GK, but rather noting that I want to re-evaluate them now that GK Paladins have shown how mathematically excellent 2+\4++ (or 3++ in the case of my suggestion) Transhuman can be.
Oh, I should learn how to read apparently.
My issue is they won't do anything until T2 minimum probably. Aggressors and Centurions won't have an Invul but they'll contribute T1. Plus there's a bunch of Psyker powers to help to durability if you really need it.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/04/01 02:08:12
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Mr. Funktastic wrote:
I suppose, but 3" is a way bigger difference for charges than for weapon ranges generally IMO since if you're forward deploying with Phobos units/master of ambushing/deep striking I don't think there are many units that are going to be out of range for most of your units. I can see it being helpful but in the case where your army is likely to be spread out and most units will be out of range of a captain/lieutenant's auras, I can see master artisans being useful. Both would probably require testing though.
Master Artisan is really good. It is better in MSU lists on things like whirlwinds and eliminators. It is also great on captains that are taking weapons with -1 to hit like thunder hammers. I have rolled lots of 2s in 8th so I know how helpful the extra reroll on them is. However it is very underwhelming on 10 man squads of intercessors or repulsor tanks. The bonus range works best on short and mid range weapons. For my RG, I have found running them as successors with master artisan and long range marksmen is best if I am deep striking assault centurions. I have found I get more work out of those guys with the 12 flamethrowers under tactical doctrine than I do a lot of times with the drills. It also gives my centurions a mean over watch. Several of my opponents have learned that the hard way. The usefulness of the successor traits is very list dependent in my experience.
That's a big reason I like Master Artisans on them, Eliminators love the free rerolls, as do the Phobos Captain and Phobos Lieutenant with Ex Tenebris. Going Primaris only, I'm not gonna be using Centurions or Whirlwinds but I am considering a Repulsor Executioner to go with two Invictors so the Invictors are not taking ALL the anti-tank fire before they get to do anything. And I feel like the Repulsor Executioner can benefit from Master Artisans since you can use the rerolls on one of the 4 Heavy Laser Destroyer shots. And being a tanky vehicle with only a 3+, it definitely benefits from Stealthy. Here's a sample list I was thinking about:
Librarian in Phobos Armour [5 PL, -1CP, 101pts]: 2) Enveloping Darkness, 3) Mind Raid, 4) Shadowstep, Camo cloak, Force sword, Stratagem: Chief Librarian
Primaris Chaplain [4 PL, -2CP, 77pts]: 4. Mantra of Strength, 6. Canticle of Hate, Benediction of Fury, Litany of Hate, Master of Ambush, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, Stratagem: Master of Sanctity
Swampmist wrote: So, popping in here: Has anyone looked at TH\SS terminators recently? With the rise of the GK paladin star I've realized that Transhuman Physiology+Good invuln=hard to kill, and am wondering if anyone else has tested it. I know terminators are a fair bit worse than paladins, but I also feel like you have a lot more tools out of the base SM codex to find a hammer for the terminator anvil, vs the gk who rely on the paladins for most of their non-smite output.
You'd probably be just better off going with a Smashplain or Smash Captain. Gk have exactly the correct tools to kill Terminators with SS, like Smites and easily done AP-1, so those extra wounds on the Terminators won't defeat the defense of basic Character protection. On top of that, Terminators are going to have a much harder time getting into melee.
Oh, sorry. I was not talking about using them as a counter to GK, but rather noting that I want to re-evaluate them now that GK Paladins have shown how mathematically excellent 2+\4++ (or 3++ in the case of my suggestion) Transhuman can be.
Oh, I should learn how to read apparently.
My issue is they won't do anything until T2 minimum probably. Aggressors and Centurions won't have an Invul but they'll contribute T1. Plus there's a bunch of Psyker powers to help to durability if you really need it.
Fair points. I don't think Terminators are correct in raven guard or their successors, since you can so easily deliver better options. I do however think that its worth evaluating the terminators in melee-focused builds or in salamanders as a bodyguard unit. The math on what it takes to efficiently kill 3++ 2 wound models through transhuman is honestly kinda baffling. Centurions have double the woundcount, but the lack of invuln means that sufficient AP is enough to still kill them quite quickly. Also, for those chapters that cannot simply deepstrike literally any infantry unit in the codex, the native deepstrike on the terminators does mean they will more reliably get to their target. I've played around with centurions outside of RG (and to a lesser extent WS), and their range bands can absolutely be played around in those scenarios, leaving them doing no more turn 1-2 than terminators do.
I am not saying the terminators are 100% correct as a note. But doing the math on what can efficiently kill paladins makes it very clear that the answer is "most things fail to do so", and I believe TH\SS terminators sit at a similar, and potentially effective, durability point.
I'd like a case for my termies, but I dunno...Marine termies have 2 important flaws compared to Paladins:
1. The jump to 3 wounds protects against being single shotted by a lot of weaponry out there. I can't see using termies without something also supplying a fnp roll to compensate.
2. Paladins can shoot and be too dangerous to ignore. TH/SS termies can be avoided and regular termies aren't near as threatening nor survivable.
2020/04/02 01:11:33
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Mr. Funktastic wrote:
I suppose, but 3" is a way bigger difference for charges than for weapon ranges generally IMO since if you're forward deploying with Phobos units/master of ambushing/deep striking I don't think there are many units that are going to be out of range for most of your units. I can see it being helpful but in the case where your army is likely to be spread out and most units will be out of range of a captain/lieutenant's auras, I can see master artisans being useful. Both would probably require testing though.
Master Artisan is really good. It is better in MSU lists on things like whirlwinds and eliminators. It is also great on captains that are taking weapons with -1 to hit like thunder hammers. I have rolled lots of 2s in 8th so I know how helpful the extra reroll on them is. However it is very underwhelming on 10 man squads of intercessors or repulsor tanks. The bonus range works best on short and mid range weapons. For my RG, I have found running them as successors with master artisan and long range marksmen is best if I am deep striking assault centurions. I have found I get more work out of those guys with the 12 flamethrowers under tactical doctrine than I do a lot of times with the drills. It also gives my centurions a mean over watch. Several of my opponents have learned that the hard way. The usefulness of the successor traits is very list dependent in my experience.
That's a big reason I like Master Artisans on them, Eliminators love the free rerolls, as do the Phobos Captain and Phobos Lieutenant with Ex Tenebris. Going Primaris only, I'm not gonna be using Centurions or Whirlwinds but I am considering a Repulsor Executioner to go with two Invictors so the Invictors are not taking ALL the anti-tank fire before they get to do anything. And I feel like the Repulsor Executioner can benefit from Master Artisans since you can use the rerolls on one of the 4 Heavy Laser Destroyer shots. And being a tanky vehicle with only a 3+, it definitely benefits from Stealthy. Here's a sample list I was thinking about:
Librarian in Phobos Armour [5 PL, -1CP, 101pts]: 2) Enveloping Darkness, 3) Mind Raid, 4) Shadowstep, Camo cloak, Force sword, Stratagem: Chief Librarian
Primaris Chaplain [4 PL, -2CP, 77pts]: 4. Mantra of Strength, 6. Canticle of Hate, Benediction of Fury, Litany of Hate, Master of Ambush, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, Stratagem: Master of Sanctity
Everything will benefit from master artisans, but it is just more efficient in the MSU set up.
As far as your list goes, you can't take powers from both disciplines with the master librarian unless you also take the High Scholar of the Librarius warlord trait. Also I have haven't had much success with haywire mines. I personally would drop them for more bodies or weapon upgrades. And always take the free chainsword on the intercessor sergeant. Other than that it looks good for a pure primaris list.
2020/04/02 03:54:25
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
That's a big reason I like Master Artisans on them, Eliminators love the free rerolls, as do the Phobos Captain and Phobos Lieutenant with Ex Tenebris. Going Primaris only, I'm not gonna be using Centurions or Whirlwinds but I am considering a Repulsor Executioner to go with two Invictors so the Invictors are not taking ALL the anti-tank fire before they get to do anything. And I feel like the Repulsor Executioner can benefit from Master Artisans since you can use the rerolls on one of the 4 Heavy Laser Destroyer shots. And being a tanky vehicle with only a 3+, it definitely benefits from Stealthy. Here's a sample list I was thinking about:
Librarian in Phobos Armour [5 PL, -1CP, 101pts]: 2) Enveloping Darkness, 3) Mind Raid, 4) Shadowstep, Camo cloak, Force sword, Stratagem: Chief Librarian
Primaris Chaplain [4 PL, -2CP, 77pts]: 4. Mantra of Strength, 6. Canticle of Hate, Benediction of Fury, Litany of Hate, Master of Ambush, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, Stratagem: Master of Sanctity
Everything will benefit from master artisans, but it is just more efficient in the MSU set up.
As far as your list goes, you can't take powers from both disciplines with the master librarian unless you also take the High Scholar of the Librarius warlord trait. Also I have haven't had much success with haywire mines. I personally would drop them for more bodies or weapon upgrades. And always take the free chainsword on the intercessor sergeant. Other than that it looks good for a pure primaris list.
Good point, thanks! Instead of burning a WL trait though, I can use the CP to pick up the Tome of Malcador instead of making him a Chief Librarian and that should let me use Mind Raid in addition to the other Umbramancy spells. And the reasoning behind the haywire mines is to deploy the Incursors onto midfield objectives, mine them, and then use A Deadly Prize at the end of my turn to booby trap those objectives to make it difficult for my opponent to take them without taking at least 2d3 mortal wounds trying to do it. Maybe it doesn't work quite as well in practice, but at least it seems like a lot of fun and can definitely mess with your opponent's strategy to make them think twice before trying to take them.
2020/04/02 21:07:20
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
I have tried the objective booby trapping - it is fun, but not as effective as it seems. First you can't drop all the mines in the same turn (boo hiss!), then you still need your squad to be in harms way for A Deadly Prize to work. Still, it's quite fun to do but it depends a lot on the mission being played and who you are playing against.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you can't have both a Chapter Relic and Special Issue Wargear in a Successor army. If so, you should chose which to take depending on what army you face.
Praise the emperor, bless your weapon and pass the ammo!
Armies played:
2020/04/03 00:43:05
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
jpwyrm wrote: I have tried the objective booby trapping - it is fun, but not as effective as it seems. First you can't drop all the mines in the same turn (boo hiss!), then you still need your squad to be in harms way for A Deadly Prize to work. Still, it's quite fun to do but it depends a lot on the mission being played and who you are playing against.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you can't have both a Chapter Relic and Special Issue Wargear in a Successor army. If so, you should chose which to take depending on what army you face.
Where did it say you can only lay down one mine per turn? I read it as long as a single model in the army has a mine they can deploy it. Also I don't think they need to be in harm's way necessarily since they'll be deployed right on the midfield objective and then you use the strat at the end of the turn to booby trap it more. And also I believe you can have both a chapter relic and special issue wargear but you need to use Token of Brotherhood to unlock the chapter relic as Raven Guard successors and then you can use the extra relics strat to buy special issue wargear/codex relics.
2020/04/03 16:40:23
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
The rule is "In your Movement phase, one model from your army with a haywire mine that has not been primed can prime it. "
The way I read it, it's one model that can prime the mine, so one per turn. Otherwise it would say "any model ..."
I could be wrong though.
What I meant by in harms way is in order to use A Deadly Prize, you need to be within 3" of the objective. The Haywire mine is better in this aspect because you can lay it down anywhere that the model who has it moved this turn, so you could start on the objective, move and advance to hide your unit and drop the mine on the objective. This would be very good too if you can indeed lay down more than one mine per turn.
I reread the rules for Relics and Special Issue Wargear and you are right, we can take both Ex-Tenebris and Korvidari Bolts - great news!
Praise the emperor, bless your weapon and pass the ammo!
Armies played:
2020/04/11 21:25:11
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Quick question. With Intercessors, Infiltrators and Incursors are 5 or 10 man units better? I had gone for 5man units to fill out battalions and give more options originally but the Intercessor starts favour larger units and the area denial footprint of the infiltrators plus the extra attacks (from more chances to role 6s to hit) with more models with incursors suggests bigger units. Was wondering what the general consensus might be
2020/04/11 21:35:29
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
No wolves on Fenris wrote: Quick question. With Intercessors, Infiltrators and Incursors are 5 or 10 man units better? I had gone for 5man units to fill out battalions and give more options originally but the Intercessor starts favour larger units and the area denial footprint of the infiltrators plus the extra attacks (from more chances to role 6s to hit) with more models with incursors suggests bigger units. Was wondering what the general consensus might be
Generally multiple small units are better.
However:
Buffs/strats and the like do get more milage from larger units. Do they give you enough of a boost to counteract the advantages of a MSU build? I think “generally not” is the consensus. Small units fill out detachments better, are more flexible, free sarge, etc.
Ask yourself what else you could use the points boosting the squad to 10 men, or what else you could spend the CP on.
I don’t think you are overly crippling your list to include a full squad or two to leverage some of the nice things, but it’s probably not the most efficient way to run. Probably a lot of list/chapter/builds could take good advantage of them.
No wolves on Fenris wrote: Quick question. With Intercessors, Infiltrators and Incursors are 5 or 10 man units better? I had gone for 5man units to fill out battalions and give more options originally but the Intercessor starts favour larger units and the area denial footprint of the infiltrators plus the extra attacks (from more chances to role 6s to hit) with more models with incursors suggests bigger units. Was wondering what the general consensus might be
Generally multiple small units are better.
However:
Buffs/strats and the like do get more milage from larger units. Do they give you enough of a boost to counteract the advantages of a MSU build? I think “generally not” is the consensus. Small units fill out detachments better, are more flexible, free sarge, etc.
Ask yourself what else you could use the points boosting the squad to 10 men, or what else you could spend the CP on.
I don’t think you are overly crippling your list to include a full squad or two to leverage some of the nice things, but it’s probably not the most efficient way to run. Probably a lot of list/chapter/builds could take good advantage of them.
Brill thank you for the quick reply
2020/04/11 21:51:34
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
With Infiltrators you want smaller units. The area denial needs to be used in multiple areas rather than one fell swoop of "nope you can't go here in this big area". Intercessors you can get away with bigger units as long as you're willing to commit to multiple uses of those Strats they get.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also if you plan to do the Crusade or whatever specialist Detachment. That thing is bonkers broken honestly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/11 21:52:10
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/04/13 20:36:56
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Is that one of the Vigilus detachments I’ve not heard of that. I thought a few of the Vigilus stuff was in the 2.0 codex like the vet intercessors and so on
2020/04/13 22:41:39
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
No wolves on Fenris wrote: Is that one of the Vigilus detachments I’ve not heard of that. I thought a few of the Vigilus stuff was in the 2.0 codex like the vet intercessors and so on
Yeah it is. Basically what it does is it gives a Warlord Trait to your dude to give all your Intercessors an extra Chapter Tactic just because. It's downright broken to be honest. Ever try to kill an Intercessor that has cover out in the open AND has a 6+++? Ever try to tie up Intercessors that fall back + shoot, and also they get exploding Bolt weapons?
It REALLY sucks, it really does. I'm still trying to perfect a list because there's a ton you can do, not to mention all the blasted Supplements adding so much that you gotta wonder what should the base Intercessor should BE.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/13 22:42:11
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/04/24 16:25:40
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
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