My take on the direction GW is taking ...

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**HoundsofDemos**

Hollow wrote:
This thread is really just becoming - "It was way better back in my day, kids these days don't know how to do it properly!" (Never mind that GW is bigger, more popular and successful than ever before)

More like GW nearly killed itself with the original AOS release and the mess that was late 6th/most of 7th and managed to turn things around by rebooting it's most popular line and at release having a rule set that wasn't terrible.

Since then 8th has slowly drifted back to the rules bloat and while I appreciate GW being more active with fixing things, I really wish they would do a lot more play testing and get their head out of their ass over losing the chapter house fight.

I started at the end of 4th and while it had problems 5th edition to me is still the gold standard as far as being able to have a pick up game.

8th like 7th at this point requires a lot of pregame discussion for a fun game and is feeling more and more like a ccg that's about who can stack the most strats, traits and relics to get some insane combo rather than a war game about positioning, tactics and in game decisions.

**Racerguy180**

I love 8th more than I do RT, not by much, but just enuff.

I'm having more fun playing the game than ever before and the new models are killer.

We can still lament some of the things we miss, while also thoroughly enjoying the newfound success after soo long blowing goats.

**Insectum7**

Hollow wrote:
This thread is really just becoming - "It was way better back in my day, kids these days don't know how to do it properly!" (Never mind that GW is bigger, more popular and successful than ever before)

Do you think the lack of unit options because of kit limitations has made the game more popular? If so, I'd like to know why you think that.

There's no denying that 40K is popular and profitable, and nobody is saying it shouldn't be. What is being said is that some part of it have perhaps been unnecessarily sacrificed along the way. Like, how is Games Workshop so afraid of 3rd party bits that they feel the need to limit rules designers to strictly what can be packaged in a neat box?

**MrMoustaffa**

I definitely agree marines are losing all the grimdark that made them cool, but on the flip side admech may be one of the most grim Imperium armies they've ever released, and sisters are shaping up that way too.

I think it's more of cleaning up marines to appeal to today's modern aesthetic, much like Tau were meant to do, while sisters and admech are more "fan service" armies, ones meant to appeal to the hardcore playerbases.

It absolutely sucks for marines, I can't stand how Primaris are being handled like some bastardized overwatch/masseffect/cawlofduty genre trope, but as long as I'm allowed to run old style marines and other armies keep the grimdark, I'm happy.

**BrianDavion**

MrMoustaffa wrote:
I definitely agree marines are losing all the grimdark that made them cool, but on the flip side admech may be one of the most grim Imperium armies they've ever released, and sisters are shaping up that way too.

I think it's more of cleaning up marines to appeal to today's modern aesthetic, much like Tau were meant to do, while sisters and admech are more "fan service" armies, ones meant to appeal to the hardcore playerbases.

It absolutely sucks for marines, I can't stand how Primaris are being handled like some bastardized overwatch/masseffect/cawlofduty genre trope, but as long as I'm allowed to run old style marines and other armies keep the grimdark, I'm happy.

not sure why old marines are any moire grimdark then primaris. Primaris run arouind carrying little boxes of bones which is about as grimdark as the Marine MINIS ever got.

and if you think Primaris means everything's hunky dory and perfect, I've a reccomendation for you.

https://www.blacklibrary.com/new-titles/featured/spear-of-the-emperor-ebook.html

seriously go read that, it features primaris p[retty heavily but isn't all light and shinyness. (the fact is, the Emperor's Spears chapter is proably doomed. and I'd argue their existance is typical of a chapter caught in Imperium Nohlus)

**Insectum7**

The heroic proportions make them less Grimdark, as do the Tau flight fins. Chunky proportions come across as more 'primitive'.

The stats make them less grimdark, 2W and 2A when most other factions have 1W 1A base makes our 'heroes' less desperate.

The tacticool stuff makes them less Grimdark. Grimdark problem solving favors simplicity and brutality, rather than a batman belt. A rusty AK is more grimdark than a clean AR-15 with a dozen attachments on the rails.

The lack of Chainswords in less grimdark.

The flying tanks are less grimdark. When humanity has to rumble along on primitive designs against technologically superior foes, that is more grimdark.

You can say to read the stories to make the grimdark come across, but I think that's a bit of a failure. Grimdark is imagery, and should be apparent in the actual imagery, of which the models are the focus.

**Overread**

Insectum7 wrote:

The tacticool stuff makes them less Grimdark. Grimdark problem solving favors simplicity and brutality, rather than a batman belt.

A curious example when many would consider quite a lot of Batman to be quite grimdark.

**Cothonian**

Khornate25 wrote:

However, I got a cd for the demo (which only covered the first mission). What a glorious experience it was ! Gabriel Angelos swinging his sword, the grim look of the fortress monastery, the sinister dreadnought (the concept was morbid as a teenager), the religious catchphrase the units would shout. It was all perfect.
To make it short, I fell in love with the grimdark and the gothic vibe.

Same here. The old-style crusading and religious zealotry combined with highly advanced (albeit regressing) technology is really what hit it off for me. So much of the new stuff... It looks too new an efficient for something the Imperium would put out, and seems like it'd upset many of the traditionalists within the Imperium (think Ecclesiarchy.)

I always thought that it'd be cool for Guilliman's return to be more controversial within the Imperium. One side embraces him as their savior, an avenging angel blessed by the Emperor himself. The other side (Aministratum, Ecclesiarchy, elements of the Mechanicus) revolt at the idea, fearing that their places of power and status will be usurped, and/or the erasure of the old ways.

**Insectum7**

Overread wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:

The tacticool stuff makes them less Grimdark. Grimdark problem solving favors simplicity and brutality, rather than a batman belt.

A curious example when many would consider quite a lot of Batman to be quite grimdark.

Batman's a useful example, actually. Because we've seen cornball Batman as well as Grimdark Batman. Same character, he's got a mask, a cape, gadgets and the rest. . . but it's all about the tone and presentation.

"Whut? He's Batman, you can tell because he has a bat on his chest." Like, obviously the tone can change even though the same elements are present.

**MrMoustaffa**

BrianDavion wrote:
MrMoustaffa wrote:
I definitely agree marines are losing all the grimdark that made them cool, but on the flip side admech may be one of the most grim Imperium armies they've ever released, and sisters are shaping up that way too.

I think it's more of cleaning up marines to appeal to today's modern aesthetic, much like Tau were meant to do, while sisters and admech are more "fan service" armies, ones meant to appeal to the hardcore playerbases.

It absolutely sucks for marines, I can't stand how Primaris are being handled like some bastardized overwatch/masseffect/cawlofduty genre trope, but as long as I'm allowed to run old style marines and other armies keep the grimdark, I'm happy.

not sure why old marines are any moire grimdark then primaris. Primaris run arouind carrying little boxes of bones which is about as grimdark as the Marine MINIS ever got.

and if you think Primaris means everything's hunky dory and perfect, I've a reccomendation for you.

https://www.blacklibrary.com/new-titles/featured/spear-of-the-emperor-ebook.html

seriously go read that, it features primaris p[retty heavily but isn't all light and shinyness. (the fact is, the Emperor's Spears chapter is proably doomed. and I'd argue their existance is typical of a chapter caught in Imperium Nohlus)

I'll definitely look it up. I should also note that I've heard snippets of lore claiming everything isn't hunky dory. Stuff like the curse of the wulfen and the red rage showing up in Primaris, and then there's apparently some falling out the dark angels had with their Primaris (it's a joke, because of the fallen, get it? Yeah I'll stop

)

On the looks department, take one look at a classic black Templar or Dark Angels model and tell me in what world does any Primaris match that. They're on a whole other level. I'm not saying all the primaris are bad (a lot are, but some look good) but it's pretty objectively proven that they're nowhere near as grimdark as old marines. I mean for Pete's sake they don't even really have chainswords, that's grimdark 101

**CadianGateTroll**

Delete my post.

**Nitro Zeus**

Grimtuff wrote:
ArcaneHorror wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
new xenos army? we got Genestealer cults. thing is that in 40k we have a lot of Imperial stuff in the background that can easily be spun into it's own army. with xenos we got..... help me out here, is there a single xenos race GW could make a new army out of? xenos races with considerable background development IN THE MATERIAL ALREADY?
the answer is "not really" Tau I suppose could be expanded easily eneugh. but...

The Q'orl could be made into a playable xenos faction. With their semi-willingness to make alliances with other races, their connection to Chaos, and the fluff about them possibly acquiring warp travel, there's alot that could be done with them.

Rak'Gol, Hrud, Barghesi, Slaugth, K'nib, Loxatl, Tarellians, Thyruss, Stryxis. Fair few right there off of the top of my head. So stop being obtuse Brian, there are literally loads they can use.

Rak'Gol, Stryxis and the Slaugth all have plenty of background material written for them in the Dark Heresy RPG books. More than enough to expand upon. All of the others have been mentioned in numerous places in the background but never expanded upon. Whole races have been built up from less, such as the Kroot and C'tan.

Barghesi could so easily be brought into the fray it's just laughable. They are such a threat that several SM chapters are stationed around the system they originate in just to keep them contained there (this is all the info there is on them right now) The Great Rift opens. Boom! In the ensuing chaos (ahem...) they are able to capitalise on this and break free. And it doesn't just go for them. Surely other species other than the GSCs have taken advantage of the instability the rift has caused?

Tarellians can be rolled into Tau (they work for them anyway), just give them some minis. Going this route you can even expand on the Vespid and Kroot or even any number of the Tau's client races that are mentioned in the background. They have a lot.

Thank you. I was beginning to question if this was a 40k forum for a second the fact that it took so long for someone to call that out.

Hrud would be an amazing race ruleswise!

**AngryAngel80**

Overread wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:

The tacticool stuff makes them less Grimdark. Grimdark problem solving favors simplicity and brutality, rather than a batman belt.

A curious example when many would consider quite a lot of Batman to be quite grimdark.

Speaking on Batman, Gotham, is pretty grim dark. Batman himself can have aspects but by and large he's tacticool, some of his enemies are pretty grimdark. You could say it was the Grimdark of Gotham that made bat man but Batman himself in the traditional sense isn't as Grimdark as he is tacticool.

**Apple fox**

Nitro Zeus wrote:
Grimtuff wrote:
ArcaneHorror wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
new xenos army? we got Genestealer cults. thing is that in 40k we have a lot of Imperial stuff in the background that can easily be spun into it's own army. with xenos we got..... help me out here, is there a single xenos race GW could make a new army out of? xenos races with considerable background development IN THE MATERIAL ALREADY?
the answer is "not really" Tau I suppose could be expanded easily eneugh. but...

The Q'orl could be made into a playable xenos faction. With their semi-willingness to make alliances with other races, their connection to Chaos, and the fluff about them possibly acquiring warp travel, there's alot that could be done with them.

Rak'Gol, Hrud, Barghesi, Slaugth, K'nib, Loxatl, Tarellians, Thyruss, Stryxis. Fair few right there off of the top of my head. So stop being obtuse Brian, there are literally loads they can use.

Rak'Gol, Stryxis and the Slaugth all have plenty of background material written for them in the Dark Heresy RPG books. More than enough to expand upon. All of the others have been mentioned in numerous places in the background but never expanded upon. Whole races have been built up from less, such as the Kroot and C'tan.

Barghesi could so easily be brought into the fray it's just laughable. They are such a threat that several SM chapters are stationed around the system they originate in just to keep them contained there (this is all the info there is on them right now) The Great Rift opens. Boom! In the ensuing chaos (ahem...) they are able to capitalise on this and break free. And it doesn't just go for them. Surely other species other than the GSCs have taken advantage of the instability the rift has caused?

Tarellians can be rolled into Tau (they work for them anyway), just give them some minis. Going this route you can even expand on the Vespid and Kroot or even any number of the Tau's client races that are mentioned in the background. They have a lot.

Thank you. I was beginning to question if this was a 40k forum for a second the fact that it took so long for someone to call that out.

Hrud would be an amazing race ruleswise!

ANd even then, putting in some hints, some little lore tidbits, and other bits for a new race is not that hard. Expanding on a race for release is probably the easy part, the issue is GW is fairly uncreative with this sorta stuff.
I think they just not really interested in making 40k feel expansive, or giving players ideas at things.
Creativity within the box of our minis and not much further from there seems to be the order.

**Racerguy180**

Joker is about as grimdark psychotic killer as you can get. I mean The Killing Joke is, to put it mildly, pretty fu*k'd up. Gotham as a setting is definitely grimdark, just not 40k grimdark. Gotham City is probably at the bottom of one of the hives on terra and there is an actual bat-man fighting crime down there for BiggiE. With All'frrdd as his butler servitor and Chris McDonnell as his trusty sidekick, Kill Career.

**BrianDavion**

Racerguy180 wrote:
Joker is about as grimdark psychotic killer as you can get. I mean The Killing Joke is, to put it mildly, pretty fu*k'd up. Gotham as a setting is definitely grimdark, just not 40k grimdark. Gotham City is probably at the bottom of one of the hives on terra and there is an actual bat-man fighting crime down there for BiggiE. With All'frrdd as his butler servitor and Chris McDonnell as his trusty sidekick, Kill Career.

except the joker ISN'T Grimdark, not always, the Joker varies from slapstick criminal just having fun to lunitic psyko to mob boss and variations of all those extremes.

which actually makes a fair point for those who compare Batman to 40k Batman can be 4 colour, grim dark or a whole wide varity of flavors depending on whose telling the story. (Batman TAS did a great episode that actually exlored that it was called Legends of the Dark Knight) 40k is really much the same, what it is can sometimes vary from author to author, source to source, artist to artist.

**FEARtheMoose**

Khornate25 wrote:
Hi people. I hate and wouldn't want to be another one of ''those guys'', but since the release of 8ed, I've been mostly silent, and I just feel like I need to talk about it (who knows, maybe other people's perspective could change my mindset in a positive way).

So, when GW released their primaris SM, I was like "oh, a super SM", okay, guesse that's "original". I didn't thought much about it. After all, super space marines should be quite rare on the battlefield compared to regular space marines, right ? They should cost way more in points and thus constitute a small part of a space marine army list. Hell, since they are so super, they would probably be non-troop choice, right ? I got it all wrong of course.

All primaris list is way more common that I expected. Hell, I hardly even see regular marines (except smash captains and bikers). But hey, it's okay, people get to play what they want. Playing an army of super super humans isn't any different than playing custodes or GK (at least during 5th edition).

But then... came the vanguard...

I must confess, I discovered w40k when I was in high school in the early 2000's. I was at a gaming store and saw the Mythic Dawn of War game. The cover looked interesting. But then I got a look at the back. And this is when I fell in love with 40k. There was a bloodthirster. And space marines. Seeing this blend of fantasy and sci-fi at the same time, that was unimaginable for the uncultured naive young teenager I was back then. And the gothic look if it all.

I couldn't buy the game, of course. Back then, parents didn't bought every last tech gadget or game their children wanted (as opposed to today where kids not even in high school already have an Xbobx account, a cellphone, and all that other *$**).

However, I got a cd for the demo (which only covered the first mission). What a glorious experience it was ! Gabriel Angelos swinging his sword, the grim look of the fortress monastery, the sinister dreadnought (the concept was morbid as a teenager), the religious catchphrase the units would shout. It was all perfect.
To make it short, I fell in love with the grimdark and the gothic vibe.

Now let's look at today. Can anyone tell me what is grimdark or gothic about a phobos captain model ? Hell, the servo-skull coming with him is more gothic and grim than the marine himself. The primaris invictor warsuit and the redemptor dreadnought look like villains from a bad Robocop movie. Hell, the SM are becoming more tacticool and vanilla sci-fi than the T'au.

I feel like the game is changing in a drastic way. Maybe not rulewise (I actually like the 8ed format), but in its fluff. This isn't the grimdark setting I knew. This is just some regular space odyssey with giant supermen with starcraft-esque armours battling inferior monstrous enemies.

To most competitive players, this doesn't matter. They play to win. Hell, I even know a few who never bothered learning about the fluff of their SM army. I told myself to just adapt to the changing times and stop being so immature, and that maybe this evolution of things would grew on me.

However, GW tacticool ghost recon SM fetish finally hammered the last nail in the coffin for me when they remade Shrike.

I know some people might find him cool, and I am not here to argue about your tastes. Bt this clearly told me that it was the end. There is nothing remotely W40k about this model in my eyes. It's just some emo dude wearing a vanilla powered suit that could have been seen in an Avengers movie.

Since GW clearly wants to make pre-8ed marines and the overall grimdark fade in the background, I sincerely think about just scrapping it all up. I might wait to see how the sisters of battle will be (since they seem to still fit the old vibe), but besides that, w40k seriously dropped in my list of favorite game (setting-wise).

What's your take on the subject ?

Ive been into 40k since around 2002/3 and the primaris models style match up with how i always felt about the marines. Efficient, disciplined and deadly killers. Angels of death. [dont get me wrong, i also love the classic marines, they still look awesome and badass as well]. Also with the boosted stats they feel more "space mariney" on the table top as well. So im loving them.

The grimdarkness comes from the setting, not how many skulls fetishes a space marine has attached to him.

**Sgt_Smudge**

Insectum7 wrote:The heroic proportions make them less Grimdark, as do the Tau flight fins. Chunky proportions come across as more 'primitive'.

So any correctly proportioned models in 40k would ruin that faction? I disagree.

Also, Tau flight fins? I don't see it - what Tau units have the same "flight fins"? And I'm talking ones that, if cut off from the Tau and Space Marine alike, would be practically identical, with no way of determining who it belonged to.

The stats make them less grimdark, 2W and 2A when most other factions have 1W 1A base makes our 'heroes' less desperate.

Guess Space Marines having that extra strength and toughness and armour stats were also making them less grimdark! After all, can't have them being the hyper-lethal massively durable killing machines they're presented as, because that's too hopeful!

Space Marines being powerful doesn't change that they're vastly outnumbered, barely holding back the endless swarms of aliens and daemons and their own kind. If anything, Space Marines being more powerful and still not succeeding is testament to the grimdarkness itself - that even superhuman soldiers more powerful than nearly any other universes' elite troops are still struggling in the fight.

The tacticool stuff makes them less Grimdark. Grimdark problem solving favors simplicity and brutality, rather than a batman belt. A rusty AK is more grimdark than a clean AR-15 with a dozen attachments on the rails.

Funny, I seem to remember nearly all bolters having that little slide on the top - it might not have been designed with all the teeth on a normal tactical rail, but it clearly looks like it fills the role of one. I mean, we do see plenty of scopes and other such things attached on bolters - look at Deathwatch bolters, and the amount of fire selectors and targeting gear on them.

The aesthetic of the bolter, however, in it's over-large muzzle, it's blocky rectangular design, and the flavour text of it's ammunition - that's not changed from the old to the new.

Yes, the Primaris have pouches and holsters and all of that - but so did the old Marines.

Literally, I can't see anything about the Primaris that the old Marines didn't also have which would make them "tacticool".

The lack of Chainswords in less grimdark.

It's a good thing then that there's not a lack of chainswords. The rules and model line support having chainswords on Primaris Marines.

The flying tanks are less grimdark. When humanity has to rumble along on primitive designs against technologically superior foes, that is more grimdark.

Custodes. AdMech. Sisters of Silence. Land Speeders.

Sorry, you were saying that humanity loses it's grimdark when it has hover tech? (It's actually quite funny that two of the most grimdark factions of the Imperium, the Admech and Sisters of Silence, are the ones to have the hover tanks that are apparently so anti-grimdark)

You can say to read the stories to make the grimdark come across, but I think that's a bit of a failure.

Why? What makes the stories less important than the model representations of it?

Grimdark is imagery, and should be apparent in the actual imagery, of which the models are the focus.

Personally, I think that the new models are just as grimdark as the old ones. Can't see any difference between them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

FEARtheMoose wrote:
The grimdarkness comes from the setting, not how many skulls fetishes a space marine has attached to him.

Exactly. And even if we *were* judging grimdarkness by how many skulls and relics and scrolls and aquilas were plastered on our Space Marines, Primaris Marines really aren't far from the old standard.

**Talizvar**

OP interesting view from someone who has been around for a while.
I started around the tail end of 2nd edition and was shown Rogue Trader by my friends and tried a bit.

I think the Primaris Marines are an adjustment where the fluff always maintained they were some 7' tall and this does not scale well with an Imperial Guard / AM.
There were many builds made by others to "true-scale" marines so the push was there.
The metal Grey Knights (after the original metal terminators) and then the newer plastic terminators addressed that a bit.

So, we need the grim-dark.
Right now these guys are brand new from the factory.
Bit too soon in the fluff to list them as veterans and then to retcon the old marines like thunderwarriors.

Scar up those suits a bit and add dirt and they can look scary enough.
They have been rather restrained with the number of skulls on the hardware.
I do admit, it would have been more interesting if they went for a more organic look, a nod of the head to the original concept drawings

But then again, the first Batman suit has evolved a fair bit to the current one (however you interpret what is current).
Sometimes a degree of minimalism can also be dark:

When you think a space marine went through extensive gene therapy, got a whole bunch of organs implanted in them, got basically mind-wiped and reprogrammed and force-fed knowledge (as well as mental "patterns" to regulate the implants), then gets his skin peeled off and a layer of armor put on underneath with a nerve trunk grafted into his nervous system so he can plug into a suit directly he is stuffed in for months at a time that can be operated with a thought. Nothing grim there at all...

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

I think the new Sisters PERFECTLY represent what the OP is going for with the grimdark. The sisters are not here to be your friend. They are here to do one thing, and that is to purge the unclean. And look BAMFAAH doing it. Think of the difference in presentation between the new Invictor (Matrix Revolutions) bot, and the new Penitent Engine. One looks like a Child's toy, and the other looks like an Ozzy Ozbourne fever dream had sex with a VHS copy of Event Horizon.

Now, you can say, the new Space Marines OBVIOUSLY come from a different designer, different theme, and different ideas going forward. And that is fine. But you can't say they are in keeping with the theme 40k has laid out.

I have to agree with the OP, WH40k lost it's edge with the Primaris brand re-design. But that Sisters release, that restored my faith. Pun intended.

**Khornate25**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think the new Sisters PERFECTLY represent what the OP is going for with the grimdark. The sisters are not here to be your friend. They are here to do one thing, and that is to purge the unclean. And look BAMFAAH doing it.

Now, look at the new Space Marines. OBVIOUSLY come from a different designer, different theme, and different ideas going forward.

I have to agree with the OP, WH40k lost it's edge with the Primaris brand re-design. But that Sisters release, that restored my faith. Pun intended.

Yeah I feel the same way with the sisters. Definetively going to pick them up. The primaris look like if Buzz LigthYear merged with Infinity.

**AnomanderRake**

Khornate25 wrote:
...The primaris look like if Buzz LigthYear merged with Infinity...

They don't have anything like enough hexagons or lovingly sculpted buttocks.

**Khornate25**

Maybe you'll get what I mean with these two pictures.

**Saturmorn Carvilli**

I think those two pictures further support AnomanderRake's statement. You could bounce a quarter of those.

I am just not seeing this sudden lack of Grimdark. Especially not visually. I do find it kinda funny that people suddenly-ish want Grimdark in 40k to stay too. I thought Grimdark was supposed to be an incredibly silly concept that only edgy teenagers and Herknes Dragonblades of the world truly took seriously. I guess it takes all kinds.

**Crimson**

I really hope that none of the people who are now lamenting the lack of grimdark in the Primaris were cheering when GW brought Guilliman back or were among those who were wishlisting for returning Primarchs. Because that's a grimdark killer of several magnitudes more powerful than the Primaris.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
I think those two pictures further support AnomanderRake's statement. You could bounce a quarter of those.

I am just not seeing this sudden lack of Grimdark. Especially not visually. I do find it kinda funny that people suddenly-ish want Grimdark in 40k to stay too. I thought Grimdark was supposed to be an incredibly silly concept that only edgy teenagers and Herknes Dragonblades of the world truly took seriously. I guess it takes all kinds.

Where have you been? Most people have hated on the Primaris model lines since they were first created. It was a 2W model with meh shooting and zero melee ability. But hey, it was new and unseen before. Jump cut to 1-2 years later, and now there are all new "rules" for the primaris, with new tanks and transports, and a complete re-build of the codex in the last two months. People still hate the models, but love the rules and are drooling all over the new possibilities.

But all of that has been completely over shadowed by the literal truth that their lore is complete garbage, and they were shoe-horned into a dead lore to sell new models. NO one loved the lore these idiots came from. No one. Oh, Cawl was hiding over 100k soldiers in a bunker, while TERRA was being attacked? K. No, wait, QUE?

It wasn't the "lack of grimdark" it was just the way they were foisted upon us that stung. The lack of grim dark was just noticeable in comparison to all the other stellar releases. Sisters, GSC, Orks, Chaos, etc. These are MODERN or Post Modern even level sci-fi marines, while the entire rest of the lore universe is using fossil fuel vehicles, batteries, and pure chaos. They just don't belong. They stick out like sore thumbs, and it's obvious.

**BrianDavion**

don't you see.. those guys wear power armor! Primaris wear power armor! GW is copying Infinity!

I mean the Fusiliers combi rifle guy looks to ME like infinity was copying 40k scouts.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

But all of that has been completely over shadowed by the literal truth that their lore is complete garbage, and they were shoe-horned into a dead lore to sell new models. NO one loved the lore these idiots came from. No one. Oh, Cawl was hiding over 100k soldiers in a bunker, while TERRA was being attacked? K. No, wait, QUE?

It wasn't the "lack of grimdark" it was just the way they were foisted upon us that stung. The lack of grim dark was just noticeable in comparison to all the other stellar releases. Sisters, GSC, Orks, Chaos, etc. These are MODERN or Post Modern even level sci-fi marines, while the entire rest of the lore universe is using fossil fuel vehicles, batteries, and pure chaos. They just don't belong. They stick out like sore thumbs, and it's obvious.

Just because you think the lore is "total garbage" does not make that "the literal truth" so quit trying to pass off your opinions as fact.

when primaris came out people took the 1 paragraph of text we got for them and screamed it was abd lore. others held off until we got more info. and TBH... in the 2 years GW's had to develop the lore? I actually LIKE what I've seen. there's room for improvement but it's not the flaming dumpster fire the reactionary hate brigade makes them out to be

**Saturmorn Carvilli**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Where have you been? Most people have hated on the Primaris model lines since they were first created.

A more positive and healthy mental state probably.

**BrianDavion**

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Where have you been? Most people have hated on the Primaris model lines since they were first created.

A more positive and healthy mental state probably.

Fezzik is assuming the very vocal anti-priamris folks is the majority, I suspect they're a vocal minority.

**Overread**

Honestly when I look at Primaris I just see more space marines. It still somewhat amazes me that GW got away (sort of) releasing an updated sculpt that in any other army would have replaced the old sculpts; yet just called them Primaris and is now running them alongside the regular marines.

Honestly I'd wager a lot of the hate is more that GW is "making me buy two lines of marine models" instead of just one line of marine models.

As for the whole gothic thing the primaris are still the very same design ethos. Asides lets not forget a lot of the "grimdark" design people want is a lot of insane high detail stuff which, eventually, reaches a point where its far too much bling on the model to actually paint it. That has to be a consideration for an army that GW is going to market as the entry point into their game for many gamers.