Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
The Ynnari exarch looks awesome!
It should be exeedingly simple to convert her to do flying dropkicks.
Interrested to see the even more variations of the kit they promised in the article.
stonehorse wrote: 2nd edition Eldar Codex is and will always be a treasure trove of fantastic lore. It reads as a love letter to the Eldar race. Far better than the crap they have now... Old Lore and game with today's models. That is where the sweet spot is.
Also original 1st codex had only 4 primary Craftworlds. It explained to me why it always felt like Alaitoc sorta sticks out as every other one seems to group up all major Eldar units under their wing (Ulthwe is about psykers and guardians, Biel Tan - aspects, Iyanden - wraiths, and Saim-Hann - bikes and tanks).
Although it also states that Eldar first lived on trees so there's good and bad thing to everything huh.
Alaitoc was first named and given detail in the Epic supplement Renegades. Alaitoc colors and symbols do appear in the 2nd edition Codex pictures though there is no write up blurb about it, because they basically copy-pasted the original 4 Craftworlds and didn't add in Alaitoc.
There is some lore that Autarchs were Exarchs of multiple paths previously. Which conflicts a *lot* of fluff. Other lore says they were *members* of multiple paths - which makes a lot more sense. Hence why they can take most Aspect weapons but very few Exarch weapons.
As for "always putting their helmet on", I'm sure most Exarchs always do, as a matter of practice. Taking a random blow to the face is likely to take an unhelmetted Exarch out of action until it merges with another Eldar.
I have a real problem with the concept of an autarch as it is currently described. They basically make exarchs look like crap and therefore make a mockery of the sacrifice of becoming trapped on the path.
Why become trapped when you can just NOT and get better at fighting than the guys who are literally walking demons of khaine...
Somehow we get this weird progression now where it goes exarch<autarch><exarch (Phoenix lords). It's just dumb. People seem to forget that an exarch is a warrior equivalent of a farseer - they are both trapped on their paths and become absolute monsters in power and ability.
Jervis had a much better take on autarchs in EPIC Armageddon. At least then they would have made sense.
As they currently stand, they're no different to the guardians they lead. All of them have traveled the path of the warrior.
I would redesign autarchs into one of two types:
1: uber exarchs so you choose your weapons and exarch powers
2: tactical commander of guardians. Less fighty stats and more strategic abilities like they currently have and like guard orders, but only for guardian units. Aspects only do what exarchs tell them to..
>
I, too, wish Autarchs were the *leaders*, and Exarchs were the *beatsticks*. I chalk the current rules up to the HeroHammer philosophy. Consider the Primaris Pskyer or a Commisar. A basic human. The Commisar, at least, is well-trained. But by fluff, either would get massacred by a Banshee (or Tac Marine). On the tabletop, though, solo models are given "plot armor" stats - to the point that either will beat Banshees or Tac Marines man-for-man.
HQ models are considered "heros", and so are given stats to show off in combat. Even moreso for "primary" HQs - the Farseer has better combat stats than a Warlock, despite the Warlock being the one using Aspect training.
What you're seeing on the table and stats is that effect. In fluff, the Autarch should have a lower to-hit and fewer attacks than an Exarch. An old Exarch should be an absolute beatstick, on Chapter Master levels. But because they're "Squad Sergents", they just get +1W and a special ability (worse, they don't even pay for them!). GW is moving away from "Awesome guy in squad" across the board.
This is why I'm glad most Exarch weapons are unavalable to the Autarch. At least that's still fluffy.
stonehorse wrote: Sadly GW have been retconning all their background. So now Exarchs can take off their helmets... which for us old timers, is very odd to accept.
...I don't think it was that way back in 2nd edition. IIRC back then the only ones for which the armor was impossible to un-don were the phoenix lords.
Read the screen cap I posted above from the 2nd Ed codex...
The one I posted is from the 2nd edition Codex, too... I'm thinking there's some kind of disconnect there. I did not remember that part, but I remembered the other.
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: Alternative idea - is it possible that the Exarchs of Eldar Aspects that 'defect' to Ynnari are appointed/created in a different manner to those of 'normal' Eldar?
That'd be a big retcon.
Random Exarch's political opinion: "I'm ready for war".
Exarch's answer for "Should we support Ynnead?": "I'm ready for war".
Exarch's answer for "Should we exile Eldrad?": "I'm ready for war".
Exarch's answer for "Would you like fries with that?": "I'm ready for war".
Exarch's answer for "Go kill them": "Our cries herald great pain for our enemies!".
Exarchs only care about their Aspect. They're completely lost.
If a Shrine belongs to Ynnari, I'm sure the Exarch will serve Ynnari. If it belongs to CWE, I'm sure the Exarch will serve CWE. I don't see an Exarch ever defecting (in any direction).
Also, bear in mind that each Exarch is perfecting it's *Shrine*'s combat style. Each shrine is different. You won't see shrines diverge as much as the original Exarchs (Phoenix Lords), but two shrines of the same "Aspect" are not identical in fighting style. Ynnari vs CWE might influence the fighting style some.
Perhaps I phrased it badly because I think you've misunderstood what I meant.
Imagine Aspect Warriors *without* an Exarch that defect to Ynnari.
What I was getting at is that perhaps there is a different process by which a Ynnari Aspect Warrior becomes an Exarch.
Five pages and no one commented Ynnari exarch has what looks awfully close to dark eldar kabal rune on him?
Anyway, the discussion about helmet 'retcons' is kinda wrong from the start because for decades now every aspect warrior concept art shown exarchs helmetless. So, unless Jes has access to time machine that had already been the case for what, 5 editions now?
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: Alternative idea - is it possible that the Exarchs of Eldar Aspects that 'defect' to Ynnari are appointed/created in a different manner to those of 'normal' Eldar?
That'd be a big retcon.
Random Exarch's political opinion: "I'm ready for war".
Exarch's answer for "Should we support Ynnead?": "I'm ready for war".
Exarch's answer for "Should we exile Eldrad?": "I'm ready for war".
Exarch's answer for "Would you like fries with that?": "I'm ready for war".
Exarch's answer for "Go kill them": "Our cries herald great pain for our enemies!".
Exarchs only care about their Aspect. They're completely lost.
If a Shrine belongs to Ynnari, I'm sure the Exarch will serve Ynnari. If it belongs to CWE, I'm sure the Exarch will serve CWE. I don't see an Exarch ever defecting (in any direction).
Also, bear in mind that each Exarch is perfecting it's *Shrine*'s combat style. Each shrine is different. You won't see shrines diverge as much as the original Exarchs (Phoenix Lords), but two shrines of the same "Aspect" are not identical in fighting style. Ynnari vs CWE might influence the fighting style some.
Perhaps I phrased it badly because I think you've misunderstood what I meant.
Imagine Aspect Warriors *without* an Exarch that defect to Ynnari.
What I was getting at is that perhaps there is a different process by which a Ynnari Aspect Warrior becomes an Exarch.
It doesn't really make sense however you slice it because aspect warriors are aspects of khaine.
Ynnead might have aspects, but they shouldn't be identical equivalents to khaines aspects. He IS the god of war and murder, so warfare is kinda his thing.
They really need to change the concept so that they are not literally worshippers of khaine deciding to worship a different god with the rituals of their original one (ie warfare)....
Long shot here, what if the helmetless exarch it's part of the whole unit identity as Ynnari similarly how GW depicts the Daughters of Khaine 2 different units in boxes (Melusai,Khymerai)
So the whole Ynnari version of the unit is all running alof without helmets showing their lack of adherence to the path and the use of their *Warmask*
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/10 15:19:13
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: Alternative idea - is it possible that the Exarchs of Eldar Aspects that 'defect' to Ynnari are appointed/created in a different manner to those of 'normal' Eldar?
That'd be a big retcon.
Random Exarch's political opinion: "I'm ready for war".
Exarch's answer for "Should we support Ynnead?": "I'm ready for war".
Exarch's answer for "Should we exile Eldrad?": "I'm ready for war".
Exarch's answer for "Would you like fries with that?": "I'm ready for war".
Exarch's answer for "Go kill them": "Our cries herald great pain for our enemies!".
Exarchs only care about their Aspect. They're completely lost.
If a Shrine belongs to Ynnari, I'm sure the Exarch will serve Ynnari. If it belongs to CWE, I'm sure the Exarch will serve CWE. I don't see an Exarch ever defecting (in any direction).
Also, bear in mind that each Exarch is perfecting it's *Shrine*'s combat style. Each shrine is different. You won't see shrines diverge as much as the original Exarchs (Phoenix Lords), but two shrines of the same "Aspect" are not identical in fighting style. Ynnari vs CWE might influence the fighting style some.
Perhaps I phrased it badly because I think you've misunderstood what I meant.
Imagine Aspect Warriors *without* an Exarch that defect to Ynnari.
What I was getting at is that perhaps there is a different process by which a Ynnari Aspect Warrior becomes an Exarch.
It's probably more likely that followers of Ynnari no longer follow the path and instead fully embrace Khaine. It just so happens they were Banshees and adopt that fighting method. I suspect a Ynnari Banshee Exarch at that point is more akin to a lieutenant as opposed to an actual exarch. Unless there was some story I missed where Ynnari followers found a way to remove the mask?
It would be fun if the whole slavish devotion to the "path" lifestyle is what has been dooming the Eldar since the Fall, and Ynnead allows an Eldar to escape that and become a more fully realized being.
It's not a slavish devotion. The original idea is that Eldar actually balances out war path and normal life, like yin and yan. It's all pretty zen. Retconning this would just undermine the whole idea.
Yeah, the point of the whole path thing is an attempt to stop Eldar from falling into decadence against and murder-partying a new god into existence by imposing a strict system of discipline and values.
Well, that's my view of it, I don't collect Eldar so I don't know the exact details. All I know is its not simple "slavish devotion", and its a response to the Fall.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Remember that the Craftworld Eldar aren't the only ones who practice discipline and self-denial. The Exodites do as well, though in a different fashion (they're more like Space Amish).
I see the Path or Exodite lifestyle as something that balances their experience of life, something that tries to mediate between the extremes of asceticism (using it rather loosely) and hedonism.
Shadenuat wrote: It's not a slavish devotion. The original idea is that Eldar actually balances out war path and normal life, like yin and yan. It's all pretty zen. Retconning this would just undermine the whole idea.
Well, depends who're you asking. I'm sure the dark eldar would agree.
I agree, removing the 'Path' and its aspect warriors and phoenix lords is basically destroying everything that made Eldar, Eldar. Why would followers of Ynnead have specialized groups that focus on only one aspect of Khaine? You'd expect them to be generalists fully embracing all paths and effectively all being Autarchs with a troop or elite statline as opposed to HQ. At that point they're just Space Marines with a worse stat line.
Eldar are specialized because of the path limiting the way each aspect of khaine fights and this is what GW has used to justify why they are more specialized at the unit level and synergize with other units. Ynarri just kind of doesn't make sense yet because GW hasn't done enough to fully flesh them out. Hopefully this civil war kind of shows Craftworld and Drukari pushing against the teachings of Ynnead and the Ynnari are exiled never to return.
Dark Eldar and Craftworld are meant to be opposites of the same coin. They both acknowledge the fall, their role in it, and the thirst that is draining their souls. However Dark Eldar feel it was their gods who were weak and it is their fault and see no reason to change their lifestyle. Craftworld on the other hand feel it is their fault for the death of their gods and adopted the path to ensure they don't fall back into their old ways.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/10 17:15:53
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, the point of the whole path thing is an attempt to stop Eldar from falling into decadence against and murder-partying a new god into existence by imposing a strict system of discipline and values.
Well, that's my view of it, I don't collect Eldar so I don't know the exact details. All I know is its not simple "slavish devotion", and its a response to the Fall.
As someone who used to collect Eldar I can tell you this is absolutely correct.
They walk their various paths in direct response to the creation of Slaanesh and as a way to stop anything suchlike happening again.
Perhaps Ynarri are moving away from that but I don't think the literal mask they wear makes much difference either way - it's more of an aesthetic choice than a lore one I bet.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, the point of the whole path thing is an attempt to stop Eldar from falling into decadence against and murder-partying a new god into existence by imposing a strict system of discipline and values.
Well, that's my view of it, I don't collect Eldar so I don't know the exact details. All I know is its not simple "slavish devotion", and its a response to the Fall.
As someone who used to collect Eldar I can tell you this is absolutely correct.
They walk their various paths in direct response to the creation of Slaanesh and as a way to stop anything suchlike happening again.
Perhaps Ynarri are moving away from that but I don't think the literal mask they wear makes much difference either way - it's more of an aesthetic choice than a lore one I bet.
Which is fine for normal aspect warriors who can still remove their masks. It's very likely once they remove their masks and return to the craftworld proper, they get sucked up into the cult of Ynnead and would never don the mask again. It's entirely different for an Exarch to have that justification though. They never leave the shrine except in times of war and, in theory, shouldn't be exposed to the cult followers of Ynnead. At least that's how I interpret things up to this point.
Hopefully if GW insists on continuing with this storyline for Eldar, they'll flesh it out more to explain what's going on.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/10 17:23:34
Well, if you think about it, if Ynnead is supposed to protect against Slaanesh, then logically the Path of the Exarch or whatever thing would be redundant, which means they can remove their masks. So yeah, an Ynnari Exarch not wearing a mask makes sense. As to how an Exarch would come into contact with Ynnari...Idk, warp shenanigans? Maybe the Ynnari put a huge ad in the webway, and the Exarch noticed it?
Though I could have sworn that maskless Exarchs were a thing beforehand. Maybe I'm thinking of Dawn of War.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/10 17:30:15
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Well, if you think about it, if Ynnead is supposed to protect against Slaanesh, then logically the Path of the Exarch or whatever thing would be redundant, which means they can remove their masks.
Though I could have sworn that maskless Exarchs were a thing beforehand. Maybe I'm thinking of Dawn of War.
For the afternoon crowd:
A helmet and a war mask are two fundamentally different things when it comes to Aspect Warriors.
So I looked it up and apparently War Masks are a mental thing and a physical thing.
I'm confused, why are we saying the Ynnari exarch doesn't have a War Mask then? Because if it's a mental thing, it wouldn't be on the miniature.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So I looked it up and apparently War Masks are a mental thing and a physical thing.
I'm confused, why are we saying the Ynnari exarch doesn't have a War Mask then? Because if it's a mental thing, it wouldn't be on the miniature.
A part of being Ynnari is abandoning the Path and all its systems. Those joining the Ynnari abandon their war masks and embrace things. Although as I understand it there's no reason for an Exarch to be Ynnari, they serve Khaine and are dedicated to him and nobody else.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
An aspect warrior unit wouldnt remove their armor in the middle of battle. The whole idea of soldiers without their proper uniform and protective equipment on during combat has always been totally absurd (yet people love helmetless marines).
A banshee mask requires the hardware to provide the disorienting shriek but the "helmet" part could be removed I'm sure. They could also simply remove the emitters and keep the helmet on like a smart warrior.
Keeper of the DomBox
Warhammer Armies - Click to see galleries of fully painted armies
32,000, 19,000, Renegades - 10,000 , 7,500,
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So I looked it up and apparently War Masks are a mental thing and a physical thing.
I'm confused, why are we saying the Ynnari exarch doesn't have a War Mask then? Because if it's a mental thing, it wouldn't be on the miniature.
Exactly. Some people seem to have gotten the impression that it IS a physical thing and thus "breaks the lore" if the Exarch can be modeled without it. But since it isn't a physical thing, those people are wrong.
Irbis wrote: Five pages and no one commented Ynnari exarch has what looks awfully close to dark eldar kabal rune on him?
Anyway, the discussion about helmet 'retcons' is kinda wrong from the start because for decades now every aspect warrior concept art shown exarchs helmetless. So, unless Jes has access to time machine that had already been the case for what, 5 editions now?
Because it doesn't? The only rune I can see is the Howling Banshee rune, unless your refering to the mark on it's head which is also in the drawing you posted.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So I looked it up and apparently War Masks are a mental thing and a physical thing.
I'm confused, why are we saying the Ynnari exarch doesn't have a War Mask then? Because if it's a mental thing, it wouldn't be on the miniature.
That's more or less why I asked what made the maskless exarch something specifically ynnari, yes, because as far as I knew it was more of a mental thing.
The maskless exarch sketches for back in the day kinda reinforce it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/10 17:46:34
Albertorius wrote: That's more or less why I asked what made the maskless exarch something specifically ynnari, yes, because as far as I knew it was more of a mental thing.
The maskless exarch sketches for back in the day kinda reinforce it.
So far as I can tell, excepting the statement from the article, there is zero about the exposed head build that is Ynnari specific.
Albertorius wrote: That's more or less why I asked what made the maskless exarch something specifically ynnari, yes, because as far as I knew it was more of a mental thing.
The maskless exarch sketches for back in the day kinda reinforce it.
So far as I can tell, excepting the statement from the article, there is zero about the exposed head build that is Ynnari specific.
That's what I think too, tbh. Also, more parts to kitbash stuff, so all good
I think a lot of people here don't really get how pantheons work. Just because you dedicate your service to one god doesn't mean you stop paying tribute to the rest.
Helping the Ynnari achieve their goals doesn't suddenly mean that Kahinites aren't still dedicated to Khaine.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/10 18:24:34
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So I looked it up and apparently War Masks are a mental thing and a physical thing.
I'm confused, why are we saying the Ynnari exarch doesn't have a War Mask then? Because if it's a mental thing, it wouldn't be on the miniature.
Because thing different, and different bad.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
~4100
~1660
Renegades - 
