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My opinions:

The I of Melee Daemons (mostly Khorne and Slaanesh) was perfectly fine. The problem was being reduced to I 1 after charging into terrain. But in my opinion the new system is pretty good.

Overwatch is super relevant with things like Tau, high range flame weapons, and armies which hit on 5 and 6. Charging units can get obliterated by Overwatch.

I agree there should be more rules to stop the enemy from falling back or to save the unit which was in melee. Easiest fix would be to disallow shooting units which have been in melee at the start of the player turn. Or it could require LD tests with 2 D6 to fall back, same rule as if Skarbrand or the Contorted Epitome was there, just 1 D6 less.

I don't consider space marines exclusivly a shooting army, they've always been intended to be capable in CQC

BrianDavion wrote:

Spoiler:

Uh, how about all of the space marines, which is almost half the armies in existence?

I don't consider space marines exclusivly a shooting army, they've always been intended to be capable in CQC

Even Primaris can be considered “punchy but underequipped” in that sense. They have their statlines all ready and setup to do some damage, just awaiting a unit that’s both mobile and has some ap in assault.

I like 2nd ed fallback. Doesn't slow the game down (AKA the 8th ed Overwatch problem), is impactful, allows for things like tanks to not get stopped shooting by things like gretchins.

It can't translate directly to 8th because no dueling statlines anymore, but you can easily do something similar. Here's my rule:

-At the end of the charge phase, the opposing player may select any number of units within 1" of enemy models to fall back. These units make a normal move that must end with all models in the unit not within 1" of any enemy models.

Before any fall back moves are made, any enemy units with models within 1" may choose to activate and Fight those units, and they re-roll all wound rolls when they do so. Units that fall back may not be selected to Fight during the normal Fight phase.

I chose re-roll wounds in place of "fights with WS0" because it results in the biggest increase in damage versus heavier targets like tanks. I would completely remove the current system of not being able to fall back and shoot the next turn and FLY keyword granting immunity to that. Supersonic units would simply be allowed to leave combat at will during the movement phase with no penalty. I would also remove the current 8th edition incarnation of Overwatch.

BrianDavion wrote:

Spoiler:

Uh, how about all of the space marines, which is almost half the armies in existence?

I don't consider space marines exclusivly a shooting army, they've always been intended to be capable in CQC

that is why two of the three doctrines apply to just dakka?

Most strength comes from these two due to beeing easily achievable states?

i mean we can all agree what marines should be, generalists, what marines are atm is however something completely diffrent.

Not Online!!! wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Spoiler:

Uh, how about all of the space marines, which is almost half the armies in existence?

I don't consider space marines exclusivly a shooting army, they've always been intended to be capable in CQC

that is why two of the three doctrines apply to just dakka?

Most strength comes from these two due to beeing easily achievable states?

i mean we can all agree what marines should be, generalists, what marines are atm is however something completely diffrent.

Not only that, but you can't start in the Assault Doctrine either.

the_scotsman wrote:
I like 2nd ed fallback. Doesn't slow the game down (AKA the 8th ed Overwatch problem), is impactful, allows for things like tanks to not get stopped shooting by things like gretchins.

It can't translate directly to 8th because no dueling statlines anymore, but you can easily do something similar. Here's my rule:

-At the end of the charge phase, the opposing player may select any number of units within 1" of enemy models to fall back. These units make a normal move that must end with all models in the unit not within 1" of any enemy models.

Before any fall back moves are made, any enemy units with models within 1" may choose to activate and Fight those units, and they re-roll all wound rolls when they do so. Units that fall back may not be selected to Fight during the normal Fight phase.

I chose re-roll wounds in place of "fights with WS0" because it results in the biggest increase in damage versus heavier targets like tanks. I would completely remove the current system of not being able to fall back and shoot the next turn and FLY keyword granting immunity to that. Supersonic units would simply be allowed to leave combat at will during the movement phase with no penalty. I would also remove the current 8th edition incarnation of Overwatch.

What problem? I've been playing 8th since launch and never once have I encountered an issue with Overwatch slowing down the game. Is this actually an issue people have been having?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Spoiler:

Uh, how about all of the space marines, which is almost half the armies in existence?

I don't consider space marines exclusivly a shooting army, they've always been intended to be capable in CQC

that is why two of the three doctrines apply to just dakka?

Most strength comes from these two due to beeing easily achievable states?

i mean we can all agree what marines should be, generalists, what marines are atm is however something completely diffrent.

Not only that, but you can't start in the Assault Doctrine either.

Ding ding ding, candidate won 100 pts.
Which makes melee, an allready disadvantagous mechanic, even worse, even for the supposed generalists. Which probably makes white scar players sad.

Which frankly put is a bit ironical, that you have to switch through doctrines like at all. Personally should've been handled that you pick one and get that one for the rest of the game.
But alas, i guess SM players can be happy that they did get indeed an update overall, and not just a moneygrab




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Togusa wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I like 2nd ed fallback. Doesn't slow the game down (AKA the 8th ed Overwatch problem), is impactful, allows for things like tanks to not get stopped shooting by things like gretchins.

It can't translate directly to 8th because no dueling statlines anymore, but you can easily do something similar. Here's my rule:

-At the end of the charge phase, the opposing player may select any number of units within 1" of enemy models to fall back. These units make a normal move that must end with all models in the unit not within 1" of any enemy models.

Before any fall back moves are made, any enemy units with models within 1" may choose to activate and Fight those units, and they re-roll all wound rolls when they do so. Units that fall back may not be selected to Fight during the normal Fight phase.

I chose re-roll wounds in place of "fights with WS0" because it results in the biggest increase in damage versus heavier targets like tanks. I would completely remove the current system of not being able to fall back and shoot the next turn and FLY keyword granting immunity to that. Supersonic units would simply be allowed to leave combat at will during the movement phase with no penalty. I would also remove the current 8th edition incarnation of Overwatch.

What problem? I've been playing 8th since launch and never once have I encountered an issue with Overwatch slowing down the game. Is this actually an issue people have been having?

Some claim it is too little influential and just is some dicerolling.
However there are armies out there that get half or full shooting phases out of it. So it's a bit of an ironic statement.

 Togusa wrote:

Spoiler:

the_scotsman wrote:
I like 2nd ed fallback. Doesn't slow the game down (AKA the 8th ed Overwatch problem), is impactful, allows for things like tanks to not get stopped shooting by things like gretchins.

It can't translate directly to 8th because no dueling statlines anymore, but you can easily do something similar. Here's my rule:

-At the end of the charge phase, the opposing player may select any number of units within 1" of enemy models to fall back. These units make a normal move that must end with all models in the unit not within 1" of any enemy models.

Before any fall back moves are made, any enemy units with models within 1" may choose to activate and Fight those units, and they re-roll all wound rolls when they do so. Units that fall back may not be selected to Fight during the normal Fight phase.

I chose re-roll wounds in place of "fights with WS0" because it results in the biggest increase in damage versus heavier targets like tanks. I would completely remove the current system of not being able to fall back and shoot the next turn and FLY keyword granting immunity to that. Supersonic units would simply be allowed to leave combat at will during the movement phase with no penalty. I would also remove the current 8th edition incarnation of Overwatch.

What problem? I've been playing 8th since launch and never once have I encountered an issue with Overwatch slowing down the game. Is this actually an issue people have been having?

By all technicality, it does slow the game down because it is a step in the process that adds dice rolls. However, like you, I've not seen this as an issue. Both players should know this step will occur and have said dice ready to roll.
The only time it slows down the game in any meaningful way is when 1 or both players don't know how to roll properly

-

 Galef wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Spoiler:

the_scotsman wrote:
I like 2nd ed fallback. Doesn't slow the game down (AKA the 8th ed Overwatch problem), is impactful, allows for things like tanks to not get stopped shooting by things like gretchins.

It can't translate directly to 8th because no dueling statlines anymore, but you can easily do something similar. Here's my rule:

-At the end of the charge phase, the opposing player may select any number of units within 1" of enemy models to fall back. These units make a normal move that must end with all models in the unit not within 1" of any enemy models.

Before any fall back moves are made, any enemy units with models within 1" may choose to activate and Fight those units, and they re-roll all wound rolls when they do so. Units that fall back may not be selected to Fight during the normal Fight phase.

I chose re-roll wounds in place of "fights with WS0" because it results in the biggest increase in damage versus heavier targets like tanks. I would completely remove the current system of not being able to fall back and shoot the next turn and FLY keyword granting immunity to that. Supersonic units would simply be allowed to leave combat at will during the movement phase with no penalty. I would also remove the current 8th edition incarnation of Overwatch.

What problem? I've been playing 8th since launch and never once have I encountered an issue with Overwatch slowing down the game. Is this actually an issue people have been having?

By all technicality, it does slow the game down because it is a step in the process that adds dice rolls. However, like you, I've not seen this as an issue. Both players should know this step will occur and have said dice ready to roll.
The only time it slows down the game in any meaningful way is when 1 or both players don't know how to roll properly

-

Hmm, I'm not sure. It might be fun to play a game without Overwatch and see if the time difference is significant.

BrianDavion wrote:

Spoiler:

Uh, how about all of the space marines, which is almost half the armies in existence?

I don't consider space marines exclusivly a shooting army, they've always been intended to be capable in CQC

Most units in most marine armies that have been played in the last four editions were primarily focused on shooting, with some exceptional elite units like terminators, thunderwolves and sanguine guard doing most of the combat. If marines are a close combat army, so are necrons, imperial guard and admech.

 Togusa wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Spoiler:

the_scotsman wrote:
I like 2nd ed fallback. Doesn't slow the game down (AKA the 8th ed Overwatch problem), is impactful, allows for things like tanks to not get stopped shooting by things like gretchins.

It can't translate directly to 8th because no dueling statlines anymore, but you can easily do something similar. Here's my rule:

-At the end of the charge phase, the opposing player may select any number of units within 1" of enemy models to fall back. These units make a normal move that must end with all models in the unit not within 1" of any enemy models.

Before any fall back moves are made, any enemy units with models within 1" may choose to activate and Fight those units, and they re-roll all wound rolls when they do so. Units that fall back may not be selected to Fight during the normal Fight phase.

I chose re-roll wounds in place of "fights with WS0" because it results in the biggest increase in damage versus heavier targets like tanks. I would completely remove the current system of not being able to fall back and shoot the next turn and FLY keyword granting immunity to that. Supersonic units would simply be allowed to leave combat at will during the movement phase with no penalty. I would also remove the current 8th edition incarnation of Overwatch.

What problem? I've been playing 8th since launch and never once have I encountered an issue with Overwatch slowing down the game. Is this actually an issue people have been having?

By all technicality, it does slow the game down because it is a step in the process that adds dice rolls. However, like you, I've not seen this as an issue. Both players should know this step will occur and have said dice ready to roll.
The only time it slows down the game in any meaningful way is when 1 or both players don't know how to roll properly

-

Hmm, I'm not sure. It might be fun to play a game without Overwatch and see if the time difference is significant.

I didn't see an issue with it until I played a game of new apoc and a game of 40k versus Salamanders back to back.

In Apoc:

-My unit deep strikes 9" away. Enemy units shoot it, dealing damage. The unit then moves 2x its move distance, one model comes into contact with an enemy and the unit makes its attacks.

at the end of the turn, damage is resolved against my unit and the enemy unit it hit.

In 40k:

I move my unit in the movement phase.

In the shooting phase, I resolve my 10 dice of pistol attacks.

In the charge phase, I declare a charge with the unit. The enemy units I declare against then roll to hit, then re-roll 1s for a captain, then re-roll 1 hit because they're salamanders. Then roll wounds. Then re-roll 1s for a lieutenant. Then re-roll 1 wound because they're salamanders.

Then I roll 2 dice, measure and move my unit a second time, then I pile in, measure and move a third time, determine which models can fight which involves measuring, roll my attacks, then move a fourth time.

Then my opponent fights. Rerolls 1s for captain. Rerolls for salamanders. Rerolls for lieutenant....


The process of measuring, moving, and resolving all of one unit's gak all at once and having to deal with picking up, rolling, and re-rolling 10x less dice makes a HUGE difference in apoc, and led to me realizing just how much time in 40k is spent on the "Figure out what happens" side of things and how little is spent on "Make a decision."

So can we just stick to cool new posts about Psychic Awakening? Having to wade through pages of meta gaming nonsense is getting tedious. Maybe move that to the appropriate forum not titled Psychic Awakening N&R".

the_scotsman wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Spoiler:

the_scotsman wrote:
I like 2nd ed fallback. Doesn't slow the game down (AKA the 8th ed Overwatch problem), is impactful, allows for things like tanks to not get stopped shooting by things like gretchins.

It can't translate directly to 8th because no dueling statlines anymore, but you can easily do something similar. Here's my rule:

-At the end of the charge phase, the opposing player may select any number of units within 1" of enemy models to fall back. These units make a normal move that must end with all models in the unit not within 1" of any enemy models.

Before any fall back moves are made, any enemy units with models within 1" may choose to activate and Fight those units, and they re-roll all wound rolls when they do so. Units that fall back may not be selected to Fight during the normal Fight phase.

I chose re-roll wounds in place of "fights with WS0" because it results in the biggest increase in damage versus heavier targets like tanks. I would completely remove the current system of not being able to fall back and shoot the next turn and FLY keyword granting immunity to that. Supersonic units would simply be allowed to leave combat at will during the movement phase with no penalty. I would also remove the current 8th edition incarnation of Overwatch.

What problem? I've been playing 8th since launch and never once have I encountered an issue with Overwatch slowing down the game. Is this actually an issue people have been having?

By all technicality, it does slow the game down because it is a step in the process that adds dice rolls. However, like you, I've not seen this as an issue. Both players should know this step will occur and have said dice ready to roll.
The only time it slows down the game in any meaningful way is when 1 or both players don't know how to roll properly

-

Hmm, I'm not sure. It might be fun to play a game without Overwatch and see if the time difference is significant.

I didn't see an issue with it until I played a game of new apoc and a game of 40k versus Salamanders back to back.

In Apoc:

-My unit deep strikes 9" away. Enemy units shoot it, dealing damage. The unit then moves 2x its move distance, one model comes into contact with an enemy and the unit makes its attacks.

at the end of the turn, damage is resolved against my unit and the enemy unit it hit.

In 40k:

I move my unit in the movement phase.

In the shooting phase, I resolve my 10 dice of pistol attacks.

In the charge phase, I declare a charge with the unit. The enemy units I declare against then roll to hit, then re-roll 1s for a captain, then re-roll 1 hit because they're salamanders. Then roll wounds. Then re-roll 1s for a lieutenant. Then re-roll 1 wound because they're salamanders.

Then I roll 2 dice, measure and move my unit a second time, then I pile in, measure and move a third time, determine which models can fight which involves measuring, roll my attacks, then move a fourth time.

Then my opponent fights. Rerolls 1s for captain. Rerolls for salamanders. Rerolls for lieutenant....


The process of measuring, moving, and resolving all of one unit's gak all at once and having to deal with picking up, rolling, and re-rolling 10x less dice makes a HUGE difference in apoc, and led to me realizing just how much time in 40k is spent on the "Figure out what happens" side of things and how little is spent on "Make a decision."

They need to remove rerolls entirely from the game, change the rule so that what you roll is what you get. Period.

The next PA is up.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/09/23/phoenix-lord-risinggw-homepage-post-1/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jain Zar is looking pretty good against hordes. Too bad we have to wait until next Monday for her counter part.

She'll be out in October, as per the video

I really like her. Also, 1994. The original is older than me (by a year).

That is one very cool model ! I'm guessing that the release is now "Cities and Orruks" followed by "Psychic Awakening" then "Bonereapers"

With perhaps one week between Bonereapers and Cities for "specialist games"

She's... okay. I can see why they haven't updated aspect warriors. I'm thinking none of the sculptors really had any really good ideas or inspiration for the new models.

 Marshal Loss wrote:


She'll be out in October, as per the video

...yet another model that has so many unnecessary breakable bits on it. *Sigh.*

Not a fan of giving up disarming strike, helped when dueling HQs. More blending is good though. Not a bad model, but not going to replace my old one.

Better in plastic than in metal/resin though.



Umm... yeah. I like her. Never liked the original, so I see this as complete win.

Ugh standing on hair. What a transport nightmare. Too much of those by gw. Doesn't look cool, inconvenient

As much as I like that they are FINALLY releasing Plastic Aspects, WTF is with the slow drip and the one mini reveal per week? Just release the whole shebang already!
They are doing that with Marines too. The Codex came out a month ago and Impulsors STILL aren't released.

-

Very nice update of ol'Jain. Glad they haven't changed her appearance too much and the new dynamic pose is good.

I still have a metal Jain, unassembled and unpainted so I might consider doing them up together. Happy days!

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
She's... okay. I can see why they haven't updated aspect warriors. I'm thinking none of the sculptors really had any really good ideas or inspiration for the new models.

I mean, the originals have really stood the test of time in terms of the design.

Sculpt quality is really the only place it's been a letdown when compared to newer offerings.

Not completely sold on the ribbons on the Blade of Destruction. I get that she's sweeping it in front of her, but it looks disruptive to the flow of the model. Although it could just be that I'm misinterpreting a dynamic model from a still photo (the video didn't help much, frankly). Other than that, very fond of it.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
She's... okay. I can see why they haven't updated aspect warriors. I'm thinking none of the sculptors really had any really good ideas or inspiration for the new models.

Isn't Jes on the record saying exactly that? The reason they hadn't been updated in much capacity was that nobody in the studio was particularly interested in revisiting them.

 MannyMcCoconut wrote:
The next PA is up.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/09/23/phoenix-lord-risinggw-homepage-post-1/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jain Zar is looking pretty good against hordes. Too bad we have to wait until next Monday for her counter part.

Honestly, I think it's a step down for her overall in power.

Disarming Strike made Jain extremely good at fighting certain types of enemy characters who relied on a particular weapon to deal damage. The number of models that had two weapons good enough to beat Jain was pretty slim. Her only real useless ability was the "Fight last" thing - disarm was really good.

Storm of Silence seems like kind of a "noob stomper" ability. Great against someone who doesn't know how to position their models. Not great against a competent enemy. Especially now that it seems shes on at least a 32mm base.

but, eh. A footslogging named character melee model with no useful aura is a casual piece only in 8th anyway, so I guess it's fine that she has a sort of noobstomper ability.

Model's fine IMO. I have the old one, probably won't pick up the new one just to have an updated piece on the table. Unless the banshees' rules are really good, I can see this being something of a poor selling release for GW. It doesn't seem like any of the models being released have anything new ruleswise that fixes the fundamental problems non-fly melee footsloggers suffer in 8th.

Nothing is really going to fundamentally change the fact that these are models that cost more than 3x the cost of a guardsman, need a transport to arrive in combat turn 2, and have no way to get past screens so will just trade their lives for 4-8pts of cheap chaff before getting hosed off the table (that is, if their transport isn't popped turn 1 so they do absolutely nothing).

I love the new Jain Zar model.

The older one was so bad and this is so good in comparison. The movement is fluid and dynamic, particularly with the intelligent use of the wrappings flowing from the Spear. The face looks great and actually intimidating, the pose is well formed.

I really like this model - my only minor complaint if I was nitpicking is that the hair is a bit too long for me.

I like the Storm of Silence rule too but I'm not sure she should have lost the Disarming Strike ability - it was one of her more powerful tools against certain models. I hope more models get a rule similar to Storm of Silence, it rewards good play and punishes bad.

Interesting that Jain Zar is now working with Ynnari. This is also an update for them, then.

The update itself is a little meagre however, there's just not enough there for a week's worth of wait. I fear this Psychic Awakening is going to take an incredibly long time and I may lose interest before my faction is the focus.

The whole "suspened by hair" thing is super weird. But it's still an improvement.
The whole wait a week thing is getting old. I feel like it's near certain the "nemesis" is Drahzar and I doubt I'm alone in that so why wait a whole week?

Edit: Anyone else thinking just lopping off the end of the hair and attaching her foot to the rubble?