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 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I haven’t decided anything actually - 8th edition is the most popular and successful edition of 40k ever (if the numbers are to be believed) and it just so happens to be the first edition where the story has progressed. Gathering Storm was a hugely successful campaign and that did the same thing. People are voting with their wallets.

Yes, yes. And Sisters will never get any new release while Orks are incredibly popular and should get all the new releases. You always take your opinion as everyone's opinion...

I just tried out Master of Mutagens/Dark Technomancers against Tau. It was a bloodbath. I moved up with everything T1, including running and fire&fading a unit of 3 Talos so they were almost in the Tau lines (moved 19") and fired away at Drones with the Venoms, the D2 made clearing the shield drones much more efficient. On his turn, he used all 3 Riptides to wipe out the Taloi that were almost on top of him and do a chunk of damage to my Craftworlders who were following up behind the DE (I think he took out a wave serpent and badly damaged a second). On my turn 2 the Venoms flew danger close so the Liquefier Wracks inside could unload onto the riptides.... it was horrendous. Between the Venoms and the Liquifiers, I did over 30 wounds to them, killing 2 and mauling the third, which was finished off by fire from the remaining Craftworlders. I took 4 mortal wounds across my 5 venoms and lost 3 wracks, but that seems well worth the trade. With the 'tides dead my opponent conceded. Neither of us had been expecting that as the 2+ armour id really nice against the Ap- of the venoms and the Liquefiers only wound on 5s with DT.

It's almost as if the goal of story progression wasn't to tell a good story, but to create a new setting where everybody would have to repurchase their space marine army.

Drager wrote:
I just tried out Master of Mutagens/Dark Technomancers against Tau. It was a bloodbath. I moved up with everything T1, including running and fire&fading a unit of 3 Talos so they were almost in the Tau lines (moved 19") and fired away at Drones with the Venoms, the D2 made clearing the shield drones much more efficient. On his turn, he used all 3 Riptides to wipe out the Taloi that were almost on top of him and do a chunk of damage to my Craftworlders who were following up behind the DE (I think he took out a wave serpent and badly damaged a second). On my turn 2 the Venoms flew danger close so the Liquefier Wracks inside could unload onto the riptides.... it was horrendous. Between the Venoms and the Liquifiers, I did over 30 wounds to them, killing 2 and mauling the third, which was finished off by fire from the remaining Craftworlders. I took 4 mortal wounds across my 5 venoms and lost 3 wracks, but that seems well worth the trade. With the 'tides dead my opponent conceded. Neither of us had been expecting that as the 2+ armour id really nice against the Ap- of the venoms and the Liquefiers only wound on 5s with DT.

I kind of have the feeling that whoever was responsible for the Covens traits straight up forgot that you can give vehicles the <Covens> tag. Remove Venoms (or Raiders, or Reapers, or Tantali...) from the equation and the various combos getting thrown around sound a lot less dangerous.

-ignore this salty comment-

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
It's almost as if the goal of story progression wasn't to tell a good story, but to create a new setting where everybody would have to repurchase their space marine army.

you're not entirely wrong there, story progression is done to justify new models. it's a LOT easier from a suspension of disbelive angle to introduce a new tank and say "the new tank from the find of Cawl is now becoming a popular tank with the Imperial Guard" then it is to say "this tank has been in sue all along we've never mentioned it"

The fact of the matter is stagnet tech only works in a world that's not been fleshed out eneugh that they can conceviably add new things without completely fething with suspnesion of disbelief

BrianDavion wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
It's almost as if the goal of story progression wasn't to tell a good story, but to create a new setting where everybody would have to repurchase their space marine army.

you're not entirely wrong there, story progression is done to justify new models. it's a LOT easier from a suspension of disbelive angle to introduce a new tank and say "the new tank from the find of Cawl is now becoming a popular tank with the Imperial Guard" then it is to say "this tank has been in sue all along we've never mentioned it"

The fact of the matter is stagnet tech only works in a world that's not been fleshed out eneugh that they can conceviably add new things without completely fething with suspnesion of disbelief

That's nonsense though, because the only reason someone could fail to suspend their disbelief in such cases is if they completely failed to appreciate the scale of the setting. The Imperium is ludicrously large and filled with as yet unexplored variety. I mean, look at Gaunt's Ghosts - just the Sabbat Worlds Sector has what, a dozen or more "new" vehicle patterns? Multiple new Chaos subfactions with unique "units"? If they can add entire new factions to the setting, casting the odd additional vehicle or unit for the existing ones as somehow beyond the bounds of reason and plausibility is just daft.

The problem was never with the the Imperium, or the Guard, or the idea of stagnant tech generally - the only faction the "oh no yeah we've totes had these all along" approach didn't really work for was Marines, which only serves to reinforce his point that GW have gotten so high on their own supply they'll chuck big parts of their own setting just to keep harvesting dem sweet sweet Marinebux at the highest rate possible.

EDIT: There is actually one more issue with the "there all along" approach, but it's not an inherent problem, it's one created by GW's own desire to increasingly focus their marketing & storytelling efforts on their own OC Donut Steel characters and armies. "There all along" isn't a problem for players because people can simply amend the fluff for Their Dudes to say they were supplied with that vehicle or thing, it's only when GW are forcing themselves to cram every new addition into the Cadian 8th or whatever faction the Studio army is painted up as that it begins to stretch credulity.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
It's almost as if the goal of story progression wasn't to tell a good story, but to create a new setting where everybody would have to repurchase their space marine army.

Hey, what has Age of Sigmar to do with this?
...oh, never mind.

Seriously though, the whole primaris thing is quite ingenious just because of the reasons you mentioned.
We are used to stupid GW marketing ploys, like new super cheese rules for new models, or scrapping Fantasy Battle.
Introducing Primaris is some next level bussiness developement, considering.

 Yodhrin wrote:


The problem was never with the the Imperium, or the Guard, or the idea of stagnant tech generally - the only faction the "oh no yeah we've totes had these all along" approach didn't really work for was Marines,

Even then, that's a problem of GWs own making. As you're no doubt aware, originally (like RT & space marine era) marines used a whole range of war machines and gear, what you saw in the model ranges was just the most commonly deployed. RT even had rules for making your own vehicles. The scope for 'yourdudes' was endless and was most of the fun.

Then over time, they started to more rigidly codify marine forces (literally) and a lot of the scope for invention and imagination was lost. This emerging drive to exhaustively define all aspects of the universe and its factions got worse over time, aggravated by things like the chapterhouse lawsuit and a vocal part of the fanbase that require 'storylines' and 'main characters' for everything to revolve around, rather than just being content to explore the setting with their imagination.

It's like the game itself. Those people demanding structure are in the majority, and the imaginative minority that wants a sandbox will do their own thing regardless of official lore.

I'm just sending emails regarding AA being something they need to implement. They won't listen of course.

Nurglitch wrote:
Those people demanding structure are in the majority

[Reference needed]

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Those people demanding structure are in the majority

[Reference needed]

Ref: Age of Sigmar.

Age of sigmar is a much more open setting with much less of it defined that 40k at this point.

Points, warscrolls, etc. The lore is basically fluff.

Nurglitch wrote:
Ref: Age of Sigmar.

“Age of Sigmar” isn't a reference for the fact people who like a story with main characters and progression than a wide, static setting are a majority.
Not anymore than previous 40k was a reference of the opposite.
Age of Sigmar is just showing us what GW believe will make them most money, not what most people want. GW can have… weird ideas.

I think overall I'm sold on the idea of PA backtracking with the Crusade a bit if you have the right mindset. Emperor's Spears and Andy Clark's recent appearance on Voxcast really solidified for me just how dire things were for the Imperium writ large following the Schism. Given how desperate and bleak things were, I'm definitely sold on the idea of exploring that era in more depth, with some mild-to-moderate plot advancement by the end.

Also, just for the sake of pointing out the obvious, people keep pointing out GW doing what it does for money as if it's a bad thing. But that's literally what a company does. It's legally obligated to do everything in it's power to make as much money for it's shareholders as it possibly can.
If you've got issues with the fundamental concepts of capitalism that's one thing, but harping on GW for doing what a company does seems silly to me.

By the way have I mentioned how tasty this Kool-Aid is?

Nurglitch wrote:It's like the game itself. Those people demanding structure are in the majority, and the imaginative minority that wants a sandbox will do their own thing regardless of official lore.

It's like people forgot that their own imagination exists. or they forgot they could use it. or people are just becoming more and more reliant on what others come up with(like netlisting).

Racerguy180 wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:It's like the game itself. Those people demanding structure are in the majority, and the imaginative minority that wants a sandbox will do their own thing regardless of official lore.

It's like people forgot that their own imagination exists. or they forgot they could use it. or people are just becoming more and more reliant on what others come up with(like netlisting).

It's more that its a lot easier to have fun and play games when the game itself has a baseline rules system that works. Even games as kids had rules, they were just darn simple. Plus you could end up with all your own rules to games but they'd work within your group and finding groups was easier since you were all entrapped in the same place (school) for most of the day.

For gaming groups its a LOT easier to get people on board with a single working rules set that works out of the box. You can build an army, set expectations and come to game without a huge problem. IT makes getting pick-up games a lot easier which is very important as not everyone can pre-plan into fine detail or wants to spend over 30mins setting the game up and not even getting a model onto the table.


Once you've established a firm foundation its actually a lot easier to then use your imagination to build right off the top of it. Because with a solid system you can tweak it and have a better idea what will happen as a result.




With a less well built system you can end up losing time just getting the rules to work as you think they should; which might result in disagreements and time lost with your opponent. With no single rules system you fast end up ahving to teach everyone you play how to play your own system. It slices the possibilities of inter-club competitions down almost entirely unless you're a key member in more than one local group.




Think of the rules of a game not like restrictions, but like the building blocks of a language. Well constructed it allows almost infinite freedom when applied in the right way. Done poorly and you limit creativity because it becomes harder to convey what you mean.

Racerguy180 wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:It's like the game itself. Those people demanding structure are in the majority, and the imaginative minority that wants a sandbox will do their own thing regardless of official lore.

It's like people forgot that their own imagination exists. or they forgot they could use it. or people are just becoming more and more reliant on what others come up with(like netlisting).

Its more like if you're paying for a ruleset, it ought to be good and useful.

'People are just...' is just sloppy thinking, or a veiled 'don't like things I don't like/everyone should like what I like'

The ruleset I purchased, works fine as it is, it doesnt work when you actively try to break it.

I may have missed it somewhere else but did anyone mention the Inquisition stuff coming in the November white dwarf?

Having seen the exarch powers, and the data sheets, I am hoping that Jain Zar will have some kind of access to the exarch powers.

Neither the banshee sheet or Zar's sheet mentions exarch powers.

So hopefully she will be able to swap out.

Id much prefer if she could change hers at will during the game as she presumably came up with them, but that's probably too wishful...

Hellebore wrote:
Having seen the exarch powers, and the data sheets, I am hoping that Jain Zar will have some kind of access to the exarch powers.

Neither the banshee sheet or Zar's sheet mentions exarch powers.

So hopefully she will be able to swap out.

Id much prefer if she could change hers at will during the game as she presumably came up with them, but that's probably too wishful...

Those that have already had preview copies already confirmed that is not possible.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
Having seen the exarch powers, and the data sheets, I am hoping that Jain Zar will have some kind of access to the exarch powers.

Neither the banshee sheet or Zar's sheet mentions exarch powers.

So hopefully she will be able to swap out.

Id much prefer if she could change hers at will during the game as she presumably came up with them, but that's probably too wishful...

Those that have already had preview copies already confirmed that is not possible.

Does that mean she gets to choose one to replace way shout,v or that she just doesn't have access to them at all?

Hellebore wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
Having seen the exarch powers, and the data sheets, I am hoping that Jain Zar will have some kind of access to the exarch powers.

Neither the banshee sheet or Zar's sheet mentions exarch powers.

So hopefully she will be able to swap out.

Id much prefer if she could change hers at will during the game as she presumably came up with them, but that's probably too wishful...

Those that have already had preview copies already confirmed that is not possible.

Does that mean she gets to choose one to replace way shout,v or that she just doesn't have access to them at all?

She doesn't get to do anything. There are no choices available for her.

Yes it doesn't make sense. Nor does it make sense IMO that an Exarch with Piercing Strike can end up with higher Strength hits than Jain Zar.

Iracundus wrote:

Hellebore wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
Having seen the exarch powers, and the data sheets, I am hoping that Jain Zar will have some kind of access to the exarch powers.

Neither the banshee sheet or Zar's sheet mentions exarch powers.

So hopefully she will be able to swap out.

Id much prefer if she could change hers at will during the game as she presumably came up with them, but that's probably too wishful...

Those that have already had preview copies already confirmed that is not possible.

Does that mean she gets to choose one to replace way shout,v or that she just doesn't have access to them at all?

She doesn't get to do anything. There are no choices available for her.

Yes it doesn't make sense. Nor does it make sense IMO that an Exarch with Piercing Strike can end up with higher Strength hits than Jain Zar.

...Literally the dumbest thing from this release.

If they allowed her to decide which exarch power she had active at the beginning of the turn, then she would actually be good and could decide to actually have an invulnerable save (FNP).


Dur dur I invent powers by can't use them dur dur.

That's like a single line they could add to Phoenix Lord profiles that would remove all the issues I have with them

Volume 1: Asuryani vs. Drukhari (October 2019)

Volume 2 : Chaos vs BT (end of November)

Volume 3: Blood Angels vs. Tyranids (before 2020)

Volume 4: SW vs Ork (inevitably after)

Is the above confirmed or still rumour?

 Ratius wrote:

Volume 1: Asuryani vs. Drukhari (October 2019)

Volume 2 : Chaos vs BT (end of November)

Volume 3: Blood Angels vs. Tyranids (before 2020)

Volume 4: SW vs Ork (inevitably after)

Is the above confirmed or still rumour?

still a rumor. Part of me thinks chaos vs Black Templar would be a strange choice as assuming it gets a box set thats two box sets in november. at the same time, GW's released a marine supplement a month pretty regularly and apparently this book'll be the black templars supplement equivilant.

SW vs Orks is a bit.....uninventive. Didnt we already have a boxed set of them a while back?