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 xttz wrote:
Wasn't there a rumour post saying that Psychic Awakening is about fleshing out the story gaps from the last 100 years? Things like Tyranids fighting on Baal would be covered in more detail, rather than introducing new stories.

I don’t believe it’s a rumor. In a recent stream, GW apparently confirmed that Psychic Awakening is taking place in the Indomitus Crusade and the immediate time after. This includes the conclusion of BA/Tyranids at Baal.
They are supposedly planning to flesh out this era in the same fashion as they are the Horus Heresy.

Well Tyranids are like Orks, just wiping out the main body won't have removed them. There's likely splinter fleets and hives all over the place in various states. So a lot to clean up and campaign to remove from whole systems even once the core body of the Fleet has been destroyed.

Plus Tyranids have that huge world they are building

The problem with doing a historic campaign is that there's very little to get invested in because much we already know.

We know that most characters are alive. We know that x have defeated y and a have attacked b, c and d. I feel that we're going to learn very little new information from this campaign, which is a shame as I'm sure GW said that they'd move the story forward (or at least implied it).

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The problem with doing a historic campaign is that there's very little to get invested in because much we already know.

We know that most characters are alive. We know that x have defeated y and a have attacked b, c and d. I feel that we're going to learn very little new information from this campaign, which is a shame as I'm sure GW said that they'd move the story forward (or at least implied it).

Yes, this is why the movie 'Titanic' was such a box office failure. It's also why no one watches James Bond movies, as everyone knows that they'll just keep making them, so in the end Bond must always survive and defeat the bad guys.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The problem with doing a historic campaign is that there's very little to get invested in because much we already know.

We know that most characters are alive. We know that x have defeated y and a have attacked b, c and d. I feel that we're going to learn very little new information from this campaign, which is a shame as I'm sure GW said that they'd move the story forward (or at least implied it).

We know the overall major part of the story; but there's ample room to set the seeds for sub-plots within that story which might setup some interesting twists that develop after the major end that we know of. Which without otherwise going back to see with story elements, would feel like they came out of nowhere.

Have they done one of those campaigns in recent times when it involves the results of player battles? I recall from many moons ago an Armageddon campaign and everyone emailed their results in. That was a lot of fun!

 Crimson wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The problem with doing a historic campaign is that there's very little to get invested in because much we already know.

We know that most characters are alive. We know that x have defeated y and a have attacked b, c and d. I feel that we're going to learn very little new information from this campaign, which is a shame as I'm sure GW said that they'd move the story forward (or at least implied it).

Yes, this is why the movie 'Titanic' was such a box office failure. It's also why no one watches James Bond movies, as everyone knows that they'll just keep making them, so in the end Bond must always survive and defeat the bad guys.

Comparing major movie releases with 40k campaigns? Now even for you, that's a pretty big streeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeettttccchhhhhhh. One that bears so little weight as a cohesive argument it doesn't deserve a serious response.

 Overread wrote:
We know the overall major part of the story; but there's ample room to set the seeds for sub-plots within that story which might setup some interesting twists that develop after the major end that we know of. Which without otherwise going back to see with story elements, would feel like they came out of nowhere.

Hopefully but I'm not convinced, personally. Given the lore from Phoenix Awakening was so lacklustre and literally everything went back to an even bigger status quo than before (somehow), I'm not holding my breath.

using anoither example then, the horus heresy books are some of BL's most sucessful yet we all know how it ends. the trick with a prequal is to make the JOURNY an intreasting one.

that said continueing the comparisons to a book, pheonix rising is the 1st chapter of a novel. typically exciting stuff happens later.

BrianDavion wrote:
using anoither example then, the horus heresy books are some of BL's most sucessful yet we all know how it ends. the trick with a prequal is to make the JOURNY an intreasting one.

There was a massive demand for the HH books before they even started work on them though, I've not seen any demand for more information about what happened during the Indomitus Crusade. This has been led by GW, while the HH was requested long before A Wolf of Ash and Fire was released.

that said continueing the comparisons to a book, pheonix rising is the 1st chapter of a novel. typically exciting stuff happens later.

So Phoenix Rising is the first chapter of the novel that is Psychic Awakening? And the price of this chapter is £30? That is even less reason to buy the books then. I'm not spending £30 on a chapter of a novel where nothing interesting happens because it's early on. If true it's a slap in the face of Aeldari players. gak rules, gak lore.

I understand the (weak) analogies you're attempting here, but I don't think they fit. People have been clamouring for PROGRESSION in the story and lore of 40k. Revisiting something that has already happened is not, by definition, progression. It is holding at worst, exploration at best.

Compared to the recent Supplement books released for the Space Marines, this campaign book seems much lower quality. And it's more expensive to boot. Oof.

Darsath wrote:
Compared to the recent Supplement books released for the Space Marines, this campaign book seems much lower quality. And it's more expensive to boot. Oof.

Disagree, higher quality because the rules must've actually been playtested unlike some supplements.

BrianDavion wrote:
using anoither example then, the horus heresy books are some of BL's most sucessful yet we all know how it ends. the trick with a prequal is to make the JOURNY an intreasting one.

I thought the trick with the Horus Heresy series was to stretch it out endlessly for over a decade with book after pointless book?

Whilst also suddenly changing the print format.

Well on the plus side it seems like the release of this box is already dropping the price of scourges in the aftermarket - down from about $25 on ebay to $20.

Hopefully it'll be a good chance to pick up some cheap DE stuff.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Darsath wrote:
Compared to the recent Supplement books released for the Space Marines, this campaign book seems much lower quality. And it's more expensive to boot. Oof.

Disagree, higher quality because the rules must've actually been playtested unlike some supplements.

I've been hearing that the Space Marine supplements had a lot more test playing than any other codex release. I think Frontline Gaming even confirmed it in one of their vids too.

 Overread wrote:
Well Tyranids are like Orks, just wiping out the main body won't have removed them. There's likely splinter fleets and hives all over the place in various states. So a lot to clean up and campaign to remove from whole systems even once the core body of the Fleet has been destroyed.

Plus Tyranids have that huge world they are building

Well there are Hive Fleet Ouroboros and Moloch approaching that area, only a tendril of Leviathan was destroyed. If it was after the Baal campaign it would allow the to do a Primaris Dante as well. [actually it would have to be the aftermath at the very least if they want to include Primaris Bolld Angels..]

Yeah with the Horus Heresy book series coming to a close, I'm sure GW is looking at ways that they can create a new point of history that they can make their next big novel releases. Those writers aren't just going to retire, they're going to be tasked with filling out the Indomitus Crusade.

Watch, in 5-10 years, the Indomitus Crusade timeline will be chock full of stories, characters, wars, twists, and all sorts of other things.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
using anoither example then, the horus heresy books are some of BL's most sucessful yet we all know how it ends. the trick with a prequal is to make the JOURNY an intreasting one.

I thought the trick with the Horus Heresy series was to stretch it out endlessly for over a decade with book after pointless book?

well that too, but generally if people know the outcome they'll still be engaged so long as the trip is enaging. prequals certainly do make money, beyond the horus heresy we also have the star wars prequals. They got their share of bashing but I never heard "nah it's boring we know how it ends" as one

I don't have a problem with prequels in general.

Most fiction should be about the journey and not the destination, and this especially true of television the longer it goes on, other wise "Will they survive?" becomes boring as they're in the opening credits so of course they survive. "Will they" needs to become "How will they" to maintain any level of interest.

Unfortunately GW have answered that question quite solidly: Over a long period, featuring many overpriced products.

Darsath wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Darsath wrote:
Compared to the recent Supplement books released for the Space Marines, this campaign book seems much lower quality. And it's more expensive to boot. Oof.

Disagree, higher quality because the rules must've actually been playtested unlike some supplements.

I've been hearing that the Space Marine supplements had a lot more test playing than any other codex release. I think Frontline Gaming even confirmed it in one of their vids too.

Wrong type of playtesting then. Most conslder playtesting to mean finding out and fixing broken stuff. Not adding even more broken stuff

tneva82 wrote:

Darsath wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Darsath wrote:
Compared to the recent Supplement books released for the Space Marines, this campaign book seems much lower quality. And it's more expensive to boot. Oof.

Disagree, higher quality because the rules must've actually been playtested unlike some supplements.

I've been hearing that the Space Marine supplements had a lot more test playing than any other codex release. I think Frontline Gaming even confirmed it in one of their vids too.

Wrong type of playtesting then. Most conslder playtesting to mean finding out and fixing broken stuff. Not adding even more broken stuff

The bloat is really getting to me with the numarines. I played against Salem anders today and I had to remember the following universal stuff everyone got:

-Atsknf
-Beta bolt guns
-Extra attack basically all the time
-rerolls to hit and wound forever making every attack take a billion goddammn years
-Ignore ap-1
-extra AP on tons of gak from doctrines including random stuff like ap-2 assault cannons on a dang plane because...devastator doctrine?
-even MORE extra ap on flamers because salamanders

It got to the point where I just assumed I never got any armor save on anything and every die got to be rerolled. It was ludicrous.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
using anoither example then, the horus heresy books are some of BL's most sucessful yet we all know how it ends. the trick with a prequal is to make the JOURNY an intreasting one.

There was a massive demand for the HH books before they even started work on them though, I've not seen any demand for more information about what happened during the Indomitus Crusade. This has been led by GW, while the HH was requested long before A Wolf of Ash and Fire was released.

I don't recall a massive demand to explore the Badab War in exhaustive detail, yet that remains one of FW's most well regarded products. Nobody knew Anphelion or Vraks existed as part of 40K before Imperial Armour detailed them, but plenty of folk enjoyed them just fine. But your confusion is understandable, because...

that said continueing the comparisons to a book, pheonix rising is the 1st chapter of a novel. typically exciting stuff happens later.

So Phoenix Rising is the first chapter of the novel that is Psychic Awakening? And the price of this chapter is £30? That is even less reason to buy the books then. I'm not spending £30 on a chapter of a novel where nothing interesting happens because it's early on. If true it's a slap in the face of Aeldari players. gak rules, gak lore.

I understand the (weak) analogies you're attempting here, but I don't think they fit. People have been clamouring for PROGRESSION in the story and lore of 40k. Revisiting something that has already happened is not, by definition, progression. It is holding at worst, exploration at best.

...here is the actual issue. Some people have been clamouring for "progression". Some people want an ongoing storyline. Because you are one of them, you've decided that the other potential ways of exploring the setting are invalid and unwanted, but the reality is almost certainly a bell curve where a minority of fans share your view and want an ongoing plot, a minority of fans share my view that a temporally static setting that expands in scope and depth is inherently superior to an ongoing plot when the product is participative to the degree GW's are, and the vast majority of people simply don't give the teeniest tiniest gak so long as they get a cool story accompanied by new missions & game modes and new models.

However you'll be glad to know that the apparent new status quo pleases neither of us, since your lot go longer get your ongoing plot(and I do think there was going to be one, just as I suspect the 8th-era fluff was originally going to be a lot more dramatic of a departure until the first version of AoS kinda flopped and had to go through that painful first year or so), and my lot are getting the format we wanted but not the setting we wanted. Hurrah for compromise eh?

$390 for the box. That is a crazy price. $460 with the book.

Problem with PA isn't necessarily the lack of progression but that GW billed it as being a major event in the lore.

Which by all accounts it isn't unless volume 2 and 3 unleash something major, given its set in a period already covered.

It's like the Indomitus Crusade, it was a potential chance to launch a massive Great Crusade like story, instead it started and finished in two pages. Yep, they're filling the gaps in but it's hard to care about it, as unlike the Heresy it does not really underpin much.

AoSlore is slowly coming together, now 40k seems to be suffering from tedium (to go with the rules bloat).

the_scotsman wrote:
It got to the point where I just assumed I never got any armor save on anything and every die got to be rerolled. It was ludicrous.

Yeah. The kill level of 40k is getting totally ridiculous :( Even if GW suddenly brought new codex for everybody bringing everybody to same level as IH it would not be my cup of tea. Kill power is getting absolutely bonkers. IF can get for ~1000 pts firebase that causes around 100 S5 -2 shots with D2 vs vehicles. This clears both infantry and vehicles at ease(that's dead castellan in turn with spare...). Why even take AT weapons anymore?

For necrons starting to be at point necron warriors need 3+ and point drop and immortals needs T5 and/or 2 wounds to keep up.

If GW releases v2 of necron codex wonder what they come up with. Necrons have special issue with this kill power level in that necron core rules are effectively negated with this. RP? Pointless. Living metal? Pointless. Quantum shield goes to poof with all these S5-S6 D2 shots as well.

Guess it's one way to ensure game goes fast when everything dies in 2 turns...

The indomitus crusade lacked a central monumental obstacle around which it could be fleshed out. Without the betrayal of Horus, no matter how exquisitely different alien civilizations BL authors could think of, the Great Crusade would just have been a series of planet battles which even, in the books, were quite boring next to the events that shaped the heresy. The Indomitus Crusade had no such event otherwise it would have a left bigger trail in the lore. ATM it is simply pointless to delve deeper into it - for me the moment is lost and even if suddenly a great EVIL is revealed to have been nandled during the crusade it has no further effect on the setting... again unlike the heresy which shapes the entire setting.
AoS' Malign Portents were quite enjoyable to follow with all the short stories about DOOM,DOOM,DOOOOM, but fell a little short in the conclusion. Still there was a big event at the end. The big event at the end of the Indomitus Crusade is "Everything goes back to normal more or less" which, coming to think of it, is a big thing in the setting

 Yodhrin wrote:
I don't recall a massive demand to explore the Badab War in exhaustive detail, yet that remains one of FW's most well regarded products. Nobody knew Anphelion or Vraks existed as part of 40K before Imperial Armour detailed them, but plenty of folk enjoyed them just fine. But your confusion is understandable, because...

...here is the actual issue. Some people have been clamouring for "progression". Some people want an ongoing storyline. Because you are one of them, you've decided that the other potential ways of exploring the setting are invalid and unwanted

I haven’t decided anything actually - 8th edition is the most popular and successful edition of 40k ever (if the numbers are to be believed) and it just so happens to be the first edition where the story has progressed. Gathering Storm was a hugely successful campaign and that did the same thing. People are voting with their wallets.

There is also the general consensus that Vigilus was a poor campaign and had a poor story because nothing actually happened. As is so typical in GW lore - we simply returned to a status quo.

but the reality is almost certainly a bell curve where a minority of fans share your view and want an ongoing plot, a minority of fans share my view that a temporally static setting that expands in scope and depth is inherently superior to an ongoing plot when the product is participative to the degree GW's are, and the vast majority of people simply don't give the teeniest tiniest gak so long as they get a cool story accompanied by new missions & game modes and new models.

No doubt you’re right in that there’s a mix of individuals with different wishes for the lore of 40k and how it should be delivered but I really don’t see why one method prevents the other. There is nothing stopping GW progressing the story while exploring the setting in more detail and depth.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I haven’t decided anything actually - 8th edition is the most popular and successful edition of 40k ever (if the numbers are to be believed) and it just so happens to be the first edition where the story has progressed.

Or, one could argue, where the setting changed.

the_scotsman wrote:
The bloat is really getting to me with the numarines.

8th is definitely suffering from hardcore bloat. There's a big part of me that feels like the game would be considerably more balanced and smoother if played in a start-of-edition-Index style "datasheets only" mode.

 Burnage wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
The bloat is really getting to me with the numarines.

8th is definitely suffering from hardcore bloat. There's a big part of me that feels like the game would be considerably more balanced and smoother if played in a start-of-edition-Index style "datasheets only" mode.

Or we could have an.actual.rule book with rules instead of a 5 page pamphlet...