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 Tyranid Horde wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
No primaris emp's champion or crusader squads by the looks of that preview, all the models in the photos are non-primaris.

They're really driving BT into the ground aren't they in comparison to the other more "codex" chapters?

I've no idea where you're going with this. How are they being 'driven into the ground?'

For one thing, they showed the table of contents yesterday, and datasheets for the emperor's champion and crusader squads are listed right there. (p 46 and 48 respectively)
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/11/faith-fury-a-first-lookgw-homepage-post-3/

Started with them getting rolled into the SM coded years ago and I said Primaris, if GW were taking Black Templars seriously they'd have updated the classic units to Primaris models. They haven't done so unfortunately.

Given how terrible Primaris CC units are, and how mediocre Primaris in general have been until just recently, I have a hard time taking that seriously- especially since no one has specialized or classic Primaris units.

If you want Primaris BT units, nothing stops you from taking them. The veteran interecessors with a pile of attacks each and autowounding on 6s should work just fine.

We know not every marine is made equal but the rules writter that tought that a 6 to hit auto scores a wound in Assault Doctrine is in the same playing field as ignore penalties for moving and reroll 1's with Heavy weapons in Devastator Doctrine, I'm sure is the same guy that tought a +6" range to Leadbelchers is equivalent as a subfaction bonus to +1 Save to your whole army.

I would have been fine with the Emperor's Champion being an upgrade to a Lieutenant(Primaris Lieutenant included). The points are about the same. The added cost of some CP would even that out a bit. I dunno.

 Galas wrote:
We know not every marine is made equal but the rules writter that tought that a 6 to hit auto scores a wound in Assault Doctrine is in the same playing field as ignore penalties for moving and reroll 1's with Heavy weapons in Devastator Doctrine, I'm sure is the same guy that tought a +6" range to Leadbelchers is equivalent as a subfaction bonus to +1 Save to your whole army.

This is why I feel like it's so crazy for people to say, "GW favors marines".

BT shows GW was looking to create fluffy rules and they got some silly ideas in their heads and didn't weigh them all out. I don't think this is a bad rule at all. It just isn't as fancy. Given the rerolls to charge BT could be a great turn 2 drop pod army.

GW does favor marines. If they didn't, this could've been a xenos release instead of releasing 3rd-grade SM chapter. But it also happens that GW has little to no idea or interest in BTs, so they get xenos-grade release.

Cronch wrote:
GW does favor marines. If they didn't, this could've been a xenos release instead of releasing 3rd-grade SM chapter. But it also happens that GW has little to no idea or interest in BTs, so they get xenos-grade release.

I think the simpler explanation is they screw up (more of than not recently) rather than circular logic, in which the end result is the same so it doesn't matter.

I guess the only reason I care about the distinction is because I get aggravated at reading silly conspiracy theories and this pervasive logic helps create them.

People that have worked at GW have flat stated that the company has made rules in order to push the sales of models. There were multiple examples that we can all see actually happened. Its not really a conspiracy theory is it?

If you can't see the ebb and flow of powerful units to nerfed units and how they influence sales you are either incredibly naive or a relatively new hobbyist.

It would be odd indeed if there are no special/new/upgraded Primaris units for BTs, wouldn't it?

 Alpharius wrote:
It would be odd indeed if there are no special/new/upgraded Primaris units for BTs, wouldn't it?

No?

Only Ultramarines got that with the addition of the Victrix Honor Guard. Everyone else got a single character.

 Alpharius wrote:
It would be odd indeed if there are no special/new/upgraded Primaris units for BTs, wouldn't it?

No, it wouldn't.

It's only odd in this weird reality we find ourselves in where GW has thrown so many models at SM players in general that the expectations of a fringe faction of SM are larger than the expectations of a xenos faction.

The odd thing is that SM have had so many releases to this point and still their players expect more. That is odd.

Cronch wrote:
GW does favor marines.

And that's why A) primaris had garbage rules for years and three rounds of buffs were needed to make them passable, B) they still don't have Start Collecting box after three years, C) idiotic proliferation of D2 on stuff where it made no sense whatsoever worked to make primaris pointless again despite aboce half assed buffs, D) primaris melee option access other than on Intercessor sarge is still utter garbage, E) Space Marines as a faction languished with bad rules for 2.5 years, on top of said bad rules applying only to infantry, not to vehicles unlike all the other books, because uh... favoritism?

Mental gymnastics and confirmation bias of non-SM armies, most of which being far better than SM for multiple editions now, will never cease to amaze me...

Please add better Word Bearer Legion rules!

Also wording of "Zall the Wrathful" on a 2+ add a number to the strength.

Add a number. OK twelvety three. 6, 28? I assume they mean the number rolled buts shockingly worded

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
It would be odd indeed if there are no special/new/upgraded Primaris units for BTs, wouldn't it?

No?

Only Ultramarines got that with the addition of the Victrix Honor Guard. Everyone else got a single character.

Victrix guard appered first in vigilius defiant, not the supplement. when the supplement dropped Ultramarines only got a new Primaris character. Calgar and his bodyguards having come prior.

Word Bearers are condemned to suffer. At least Iron Warriors have an amazing warlord trait, and the World Eaters and Emperors Children have semi-decent troops; Word Bearers have *nothing*. Even casuals can't deny their trait is bad; it's literally the only army trait in the game that harms you.

All it would take to make the CSM Legions better would be to convert the Horus Heresy Legion rules; it can't be that hard. Then for the Renegade Chapters, just build some sort of customisation option. It wouldn't take long; I would be fine if it was just copy and paste stuff at this point.

 Latro_ wrote:
also had to be BT first didn't it, another day to wait for the chaos stuff ugh

if you look at the previews we've already gotten, and then the table of contents they've previewed you can proably understand why. I'd be willing to be that tomorrow we'll see a word bearer's and night lords preview, thursday we'll see Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors, and friday we'll see World Eater's and Emperor's children.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 blood reaper wrote:
Word Bearers are condemned to suffer. At least Iron Warriors have an amazing warlord trait, and the World Eaters and Emperors Children have semi-decent troops; Word Bearers have *nothing*. Even casuals can't deny their trait is bad; it's literally the only army trait in the game that harms you.

All it would take to make the CSM Legions better would be to convert the Horus Heresy Legion rules; it can't be that hard. Then for the Renegade Chapters, just build some sort of customisation option. It wouldn't take long; I would be fine if it was just copy and paste stuff at this point.

it's possiable word bearers will get some warlord traits and relics in this book that'll make em a "not completely worthless" choice. fingers crossed

BrianDavion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
It would be odd indeed if there are no special/new/upgraded Primaris units for BTs, wouldn't it?

No?

Only Ultramarines got that with the addition of the Victrix Honor Guard. Everyone else got a single character.

Victrix guard appered first in vigilius defiant, not the supplement. when the supplement dropped Ultramarines only got a new Primaris character. Calgar and his bodyguards having come prior.

Yes, and? You'll notice I said nothing about them getting it with the supplement.

Victrix Guard are still Ultramarines only. Doesn't matter if they came with Vigilus Defiant or the Ultramarines Supplement. No other Chapter has, as of yet, received a unique Primaris unit.

More's the pity too, because Shrike would have been a perfect frigging place for one given that he's the only other Chapter Master that has been Primaris'd so far.

I think GW has figured out new marine models will sell initially regardless of the rules. Collectors/garage players will buy new boxes of marines regardless of the rules.

Same thing with marine rules. Codexes, supplements, campaign books...New marine stuff sells regardless of competitive balance. Once that initial rush is over then you tune the rules to get the rest of the inventory out of the warehouse.

The NPC factions need rules to move old models since I doubt new models sell as well as new marine models. Rules move xenos, fanbois move marines?

Considering how much people have complained about GW getting rid of Oldmarines and replacing them with Primaris, I actually think the Black Templars retaining their unique oldmarine units and not getting new Primaris stuff is a good sign.

 Irbis wrote:

Cronch wrote:
GW does favor marines.

And that's why A) primaris had garbage rules for years and three rounds of buffs were needed to make them passable, B) they still don't have Start Collecting box after three years, C) idiotic proliferation of D2 on stuff where it made no sense whatsoever worked to make primaris pointless again despite aboce half assed buffs, D) primaris melee option access other than on Intercessor sarge is still utter garbage, E) Space Marines as a faction languished with bad rules for 2.5 years, on top of said bad rules applying only to infantry, not to vehicles unlike all the other books, because uh... favoritism?

Mental gymnastics and confirmation bias of non-SM armies, most of which being far better than SM for multiple editions now, will never cease to amaze me...

Lol, are you seriously trying to deny that SM are not quite obviously the favoured faction of 40k as far as GW is concerned? Are you serious? If not them, then who? They have had more releases than entire general groups (eg - xenos) of factions combined REMOVED.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
People that have worked at GW have flat stated that the company has made rules in order to push the sales of models. There were multiple examples that we can all see actually happened. Its not really a conspiracy theory is it?

If you can't see the ebb and flow of powerful units to nerfed units and how they influence sales you are either incredibly naive or a relatively new hobbyist.

Yea, that's a funny thing. You even insinuated that GW had somehow manipulated people into buying Smasha Guns when they hadn't changed anything about Smasha Guns at all - and nevermind that kit makes several guns, but they only want you using Smasha, right? Someone decided to spam them and it caught on, but that's somehow a conspiracy perpetrated by GW.

And the thread that people like to reference - let's actually read what he said:

The Eldar codex was designed at a time when we were told to make things a) exciting and interesting and b) reflect the narrative at all costs.

That's a lot different than make this unit over powered for sales, isn't it?

He also says:

and someone in a position of authority (who has since left0 said "I love it, but don't increase any points values.

So there's one person, presumably not marketing, controlling the fate of GW? During a time they were "making things exciting and interesting" and "reflecting the narrative". The poster insinuates:

Because, obviously, that means people need fewer models, see?

This, again, is not making models overpowered for sales. What grasp do you think this person had about how the rules really worked? I'd bet you they never put it on the table.

And he finished with this:

As I say, though those days are over

So you'll hang on every interpretation that suits your narrative and totally ignore that he said those days are over -- on Dec 15th 2017. But here we are -- contesting that GW is actively abusing rules for sales.

This doesn't mean marines aren't strong or whatever. It just means they screwed up and someone on the design team has a bad grasp of the way the rules work. They "made things exciting and interesting" again. They didn't conspire to screw over customers.

In fairness, Space Marines have been fairly subpar most of the edition competitively. That doesn't mean they haven't gotten a ton of new releases and that GW doesn't heavily favor them from a product standpoint. There's just little to suggest the devs favor them from a power standpoint. Realistically, the truth is probably that the devs favor them enough that they get playtested to a fair standard, while other neglected factions have stuff that isn't properly tested and slips through over the curve.

So unless the Templar get something that allow them to disembark and charge in the same turn, this is useless isnt it?

... you can disembark and charge.

Just not if the transport has moved.

Ok, so they think your opponent is gonna let a Land Raider sit infront of them for a turn?

1. Drive up to the enemy in a land raider
2. ???????
3. Get out of the Land Raider
4. CHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGE!!!

I don't see any holes in this plan.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
So unless the Templar get something that allow them to disembark and charge in the same turn, this is useless isnt it?

Useless until we can move transports and disembark.

You clearly need two Land Raiders.

 Irbis wrote:

Cronch wrote:
GW does favor marines.

And that's why A) primaris had garbage rules for years and three rounds of buffs were needed to make them passable, B) they still don't have Start Collecting box after three years, C) idiotic proliferation of D2 on stuff where it made no sense whatsoever worked to make primaris pointless again despite aboce half assed buffs, D) primaris melee option access other than on Intercessor sarge is still utter garbage, E) Space Marines as a faction languished with bad rules for 2.5 years, on top of said bad rules applying only to infantry, not to vehicles unlike all the other books, because uh... favoritism?

Mental gymnastics and confirmation bias of non-SM armies, most of which being far better than SM for multiple editions now, will never cease to amaze me...

Behold the density of SM and non-SM releases. Marines and Eldar existed for roughly the same time. Space Marines have 113 entries on GW store, while Craftworld have 61, almost 2x fewer. Even CSM have only 65. And I know some of those will be stuff like shoulder pad packs, but it's still showing clearly who's getting the limelight.

it really is a bad strat.

 Irbis wrote:

Cronch wrote:
GW does favor marines.

And that's why A) primaris had garbage rules for years and three rounds of buffs were needed to make them passable, B) they still don't have Start Collecting box after three years, C) idiotic proliferation of D2 on stuff where it made no sense whatsoever worked to make primaris pointless again despite aboce half assed buffs, D) primaris melee option access other than on Intercessor sarge is still utter garbage, E) Space Marines as a faction languished with bad rules for 2.5 years, on top of said bad rules applying only to infantry, not to vehicles unlike all the other books, because uh... favoritism?

Mental gymnastics and confirmation bias of non-SM armies, most of which being far better than SM for multiple editions now, will never cease to amaze me...

Are you in denail that Marines do not get a constant, relentless and overwhelming series of model and rules releases

As a sub faction of the Imperium compared to actual full Xenos factions - they have how many models? how Many Stats, how mnay Codexes, how many supplements.....

They even managed to squeeze out the Chaos Legions (and anyone else apparently) in the new book just so they cram in another TEN PAGES of new rules, strats, relics for MARINES. AND then lets make it all about Black Templars - can;t thnk of another Imperial sub faction in the trailer that is also all about Faith.

And before the But but "Sisters are getting a new Dex m'kay" - MARINES JUST HAD ONE and are still being lavished with new stuff - its fething endless