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Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





Spoiler:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
People that have worked at GW have flat stated that the company has made rules in order to push the sales of models. There were multiple examples that we can all see actually happened. Its not really a conspiracy theory is it?

If you can't see the ebb and flow of powerful units to nerfed units and how they influence sales you are either incredibly naive or a relatively new hobbyist.


Yea, that's a funny thing. You even insinuated that GW had somehow manipulated people into buying Smasha Guns when they hadn't changed anything about Smasha Guns at all - and nevermind that kit makes several guns, but they only want you using Smasha, right? Someone decided to spam them and it caught on, but that's somehow a conspiracy perpetrated by GW.

And the thread that people like to reference - let's actually read what he said:

The Eldar codex was designed at a time when we were told to make things a) exciting and interesting and b) reflect the narrative at all costs.


That's a lot different than make this unit over powered for sales, isn't it?

He also says:

and someone in a position of authority (who has since left0 said "I love it, but don't increase any points values.


So there's one person, presumably not marketing, controlling the fate of GW? During a time they were "making things exciting and interesting" and "reflecting the narrative". The poster insinuates:

Because, obviously, that means people need fewer models, see?


This, again, is not making models overpowered for sales. What grasp do you think this person had about how the rules really worked? I'd bet you they never put it on the table.

And he finished with this:

As I say, though those days are over


So you'll hang on every interpretation that suits your narrative and totally ignore that he said those days are over -- on Dec 15th 2017. But here we are -- contesting that GW is actively abusing rules for sales.

This doesn't mean marines aren't strong or whatever. It just means they screwed up and someone on the design team has a bad grasp of the way the rules work. They "made things exciting and interesting" again. They didn't conspire to screw over customers.




Except of course that the top brass, suits, are very willing to intervene for the bottomline.
IN essence, do you really think that it is not anymore the case?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
People that have worked at GW have flat stated that the company has made rules in order to push the sales of models. There were multiple examples that we can all see actually happened. Its not really a conspiracy theory is it?

If you can't see the ebb and flow of powerful units to nerfed units and how they influence sales you are either incredibly naive or a relatively new hobbyist.


Yea, that's a funny thing. You even insinuated that GW had somehow manipulated people into buying Smasha Guns when they hadn't changed anything

They changed point values massively for the kmk (the previously OP Mek gun) to incentivise sales of Smasha Guns (as they are now the OP choice). E - and the kit just so happens to be the most expensive Ork kit point for point. It also can make 1 (one) gun, not a variety without magnetisation. Why are you so defensive and how are you so blind to this?!

Are you seriously so deluded that you believe that a)rules don't affect sales, b)GW don't know this and c)exploit it to maximise their profits? You can't be so naive. Have you been playing and following 8th at all (I know you have)? The Castellan. The Ad Mech HQ. The Ad Mech tank. The new SM codex and supplements. Disco Lords. Repulsors when first launched. IFF. The nurgle tree. The new slaanesh stuff. Much of the nee GSC stuff when initially launched. How many more examples do you need of recent products released that were/are very, very "aggressively" pointed?

Your five sub par Ork buggies don't explain away the many counterexamples that can easily be raised against them. They are the exception rather than the norm.

As to your quoting of the AMA, you've taken so much of it out it lacks context and sense. We both know what the employee was saying, whether you like it or not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/12 19:59:29


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




The rules team and marketing are separate. The truth is yes GW is using rules to push sales. But not by making the new ones the new hotness, rather they realize that balance makes more sales. They don’t care what model you buy so long as you buy a GW model.

This is why we have chapter approved now.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
People that have worked at GW have flat stated that the company has made rules in order to push the sales of models. There were multiple examples that we can all see actually happened. Its not really a conspiracy theory is it?

If you can't see the ebb and flow of powerful units to nerfed units and how they influence sales you are either incredibly naive or a relatively new hobbyist.


Yea, that's a funny thing. You even insinuated that GW had somehow manipulated people into buying Smasha Guns when they hadn't changed anything

They changed point values massively for the kmk (the previously OP Mek gun) to incentivise sales of Smasha Guns (as they are now the OP choice). E - and the kit just so happens to be the most expensive Ork kit point for point. It also can make 1 (one) gun, not a variety without magnetisation. Why are you so defensive and how are you so blind to this?!

Are you seriously so deluded that you believe that a)rules don't affect sales, b)GW don't know this and c)exploit it to maximise their profits? You can't be so naive. Have you been playing and following 8th at all (I know you have)? The Castellan. The Ad Mech HQ. The Ad Mech tank. The new SM codex and supplements. Disco Lords. Repulsors when first launched. IFF. The nurgle tree. The new slaanesh stuff. Much of the nee GSC stuff when initially launched. How many more examples do you need of recent products released that were/are very, very "aggressively" pointed?

Your five sub par Ork buggies don't explain away the many counterexamples that can easily be raised against them. They are the exception rather than the norm.

As to your quoting of the AMA, you've taken so much of it out it lacks context and sense. We both know what the employee was saying, whether you like it or not.


Yes, they can't ever raise points on a unit otherwise it's to push sales. That's such a really silly position to take. And they can't lower points, because it's to push sales! You think GW is completely incompetent at rules, but they're somehow so savvy that they know nerfing something will magically push sales to the next unit they they've intended? Are we ALSO ignoring that the KMK went from D3 damage to D6 damage? Do you mean to tell me GW gave the KMK a buff, but a buff that was juuuust bad enough to make the KMK not worth it?

Some how a weapon that gets D6 S8 AP3 DD6 shots isn't worth (slightly less than) three times as much as something that gets ONE AP4 DD6 shot that has a 42% chance to wound T8 and 58% to wound T7 ? Or could it just be people prefer the cheaper option to make spamming a gak ton of T5 W6 battalion fillers with decent guns? GW totally sucks at rules, but they were capable of figuring this out?

Disco lords are doing nothing now. And they didn't even get nerfed. And you're ignoring the HUGE laundry list of new unused units. Where are the new primaris units? It's almost all Centurions. You mean to tell me GW produced brand new kits and decided, "naaaah we really want to sell all these older kits even though we have these new ones all boxed up!".

GW. The genius manipulator! Terrible at rules.

No. The common theme is incompetence. Not conspiracy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/12 21:13:05


   
Made in gb
Rampaging Carnifex






 Mr Morden wrote:
 Irbis wrote:
Cronch wrote:
GW does favor marines.

And that's why A) primaris had garbage rules for years and three rounds of buffs were needed to make them passable, B) they still don't have Start Collecting box after three years, C) idiotic proliferation of D2 on stuff where it made no sense whatsoever worked to make primaris pointless again despite aboce half assed buffs, D) primaris melee option access other than on Intercessor sarge is still utter garbage, E) Space Marines as a faction languished with bad rules for 2.5 years, on top of said bad rules applying only to infantry, not to vehicles unlike all the other books, because uh... favoritism?

Mental gymnastics and confirmation bias of non-SM armies, most of which being far better than SM for multiple editions now, will never cease to amaze me...


Are you in denail that Marines do not get a constant, relentless and overwhelming series of model and rules releases


Aside from the Start Collecting box he was quite clearly referring to rules rather than models. It's a good example that helps disprove the conspiracy theory of GW carefully crafting rules to push sales of specific model ranges, and indicates they simply don't fully understand what effects their rules will have. Only when GW took marines back to the drawing board and wrote a whole new codex did they become highly competitive, two years after the initial 8E release.

   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




We do know, at the very least, that Games Workshop deliberately make certain kits OP to make more sales. It's not really of debate here. The question as to whether they would do it now? Well, yeah, they probably would.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
[***]







Of course they would!

I really was hoping for an actual Primaris CC assault unit...
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




The relic sword having a consistent D3 is pretty nasty. Otherwise could take it or leave it.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Unless they let units charge from Land Raiders after the Land Raider moves (you know, like every other flipping edition!) the Land Raider stratagem is going to be borderline useless since charging from a Land Raider currently is an exercise in frustration.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






Iowa

 Alpharius wrote:
Of course they would!

I really was hoping for an actual Primaris CC assault unit...

Just hold a little longer. Valrak has a bid up that explains that Primaris Blood Angels are confirmed to fall for the Black Rage in an upcoming book.

If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed. 
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






 Daedalus81 wrote:

Yes, they can't ever raise points on a unit otherwise it's to push sales. That's such a really silly position to take. And they can't lower points, because it's to push sales! You think GW is completely incompetent at rules, but they're somehow so savvy that they know nerfing something will magically push sales to the next unit they they've intended? Are we ALSO ignoring that the KMK went from D3 damage to D6 damage? Do you mean to tell me GW gave the KMK a buff, but a buff that was juuuust bad enough to make the KMK not worth it?

Have you finished strawmanning? I don’t think GW are incompetent at all. I think they know exactly what they are doing and they have been doing it for years. It’s a cycle, as I have said - bikes are strong one edition then weak the next, KMK is optimal in index then suboptimal for codex, Tac squads are strong one edition, weak others, Castellan is strong for a while until they have milked it so on and so forth. GW likely believe that some new models don’t actually need as good rules because people will buy them regardless. I have explained before why GW may want to push sales of older kits.

Disco lords are doing nothing now. And they didn't even get nerfed.
You are joking? Has the flawless host disappeared from the meta? Didn’t think so.

And you're ignoring the HUGE laundry list of new unused units. Where are the new primaris units? It's almost all Centurions. You mean to tell me GW produced brand new kits and decided, "naaaah we really want to sell all these older kits even though we have these new ones all boxed up!".

Again - are you joking? IFF, was he not a new marine release? How about those guys that prevent deep striking? Repulsor? The massive variety of Marine builds is exactly because they have so many strong units. It’s not ‘all centurions’ at all - you have decided this yourself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Unless they let units charge from Land Raiders after the Land Raider moves (you know, like every other flipping edition!) the Land Raider stratagem is going to be borderline useless since charging from a Land Raider currently is an exercise in frustration.

Didn’t all vehicles allow disembarking after moving in previous editions? Welcome to 8th.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/12 22:22:09


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Unmaker, Scion of Tzeentch





Southern New Hampshire

Can you guys stop derailing the thread for a change? We've actually got News and Rumors to discuss - can you take GW's evil and/or incompetence elsewhere, please?

"There are no problems that cannot be solved with cannons." - Chief Engineer Boris Krauss of Nuln

AoS - Fires of Change : "The Everchosen stole my destiny. Soon, I shall return the favor." The Unmaker, Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch

Thousand Sons
Renegade Astartes The Scourged
Daemons

DR:80S++G++M--B+IPwhfb01#+D+++A+++/fWD268R++T(D)DM+++
 
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Can you guys stop derailing the thread for a change? We've actually got News and Rumors to discuss - can you take GW's evil and/or incompetence elsewhere, please?

It’s not ‘evil’ - businesses exist to make money.

As to your point - have you not read the other 100+ pages of the thread? At this point 2-3 pages of N&R followed by 10 pages off topic is part of its roguish charm.
   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The relic sword having a consistent D3 is pretty nasty. Otherwise could take it or leave it.


IIRC its a direct copy of the Sisters relic sword in terms of stats

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in nz
[MOD]
Villanous Scum






 An Actual Englishman wrote:
have you not read the other 100+ pages of the thread? At this point 2-3 pages of N&R followed by 10 pages off topic is part of its roguish charm.


No, it really isn't. Stay on topic is a rule here and whilst the conversation does tend to wander at times we do expect everyone to at least try to keep on topic, if you want to discuss tangents unrelated to the N&R then create a thread for them.

On parle toujours mal quand on n'a rien à dire.
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Backfire wrote:
Nobody kills his dad and participates in genocide just for cosplay.
 
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






 ingtaer wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
have you not read the other 100+ pages of the thread? At this point 2-3 pages of N&R followed by 10 pages off topic is part of its roguish charm.


No, it really isn't. Stay on topic is a rule here and whilst the conversation does tend to wander at times we do expect everyone to at least try to keep on topic, if you want to discuss tangents unrelated to the N&R then create a thread for them.

You might want to raise this with the countless others who have taken this thread off topic.
   
Made in nz
[MOD]
Villanous Scum






 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 ingtaer wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
have you not read the other 100+ pages of the thread? At this point 2-3 pages of N&R followed by 10 pages off topic is part of its roguish charm.


No, it really isn't. Stay on topic is a rule here and whilst the conversation does tend to wander at times we do expect everyone to at least try to keep on topic, if you want to discuss tangents unrelated to the N&R then create a thread for them.

You might want to raise this with the countless others who have taken this thread off topic.

It is an in thread warning to everyone. Stay on topic.

On parle toujours mal quand on n'a rien à dire.
Keeping the flame of Babylon 5 A Call to Arms alive, check it out;
Babylon 5 ACTA campaign log
Babylon 5 ACTA Painting log
Backfire wrote:
Nobody kills his dad and participates in genocide just for cosplay.
 
   
Made in us
Implacable Black Templar Initiate




California

Wish I had gotten a new unit, a new crusade squad, or a new Primaris Upgrade, but honestly getting Templar Rules at all means I'm gonna be in a better spot than what I was for years between 4th and 7th.

There's future releases that will come down the line, but I'm happy with what I've seen so far

4000 
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




 blood reaper wrote:
Word Bearers are condemned to suffer. At least Iron Warriors have an amazing warlord trait, and the World Eaters and Emperors Children have semi-decent troops; Word Bearers have *nothing*. Even casuals can't deny their trait is bad; it's literally the only army trait in the game that harms you.

All it would take to make the CSM Legions better would be to convert the Horus Heresy Legion rules; it can't be that hard. Then for the Renegade Chapters, just build some sort of customisation option. It wouldn't take long; I would be fine if it was just copy and paste stuff at this point.

Yeah I would love to get "a talent for murder " for night lords. I would even be cool if we got the nostroman blood rule to even it out.
   
Made in ca
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot





A pretty resounding meh so far for BT rules. I was really hoping vows would replace the doctrine options for BT to really get the CC theme going, but unfortunately I guess we have to settle for the assault doctrine bonus they get. I feel like White Scars hit harder in comparison. Hoping the other Litanies they get are worth it, and there's some stratagems regarding crusader squads.

My milkshakes bring all the boys to the yard and they're like, hurr darry darr.


My suggestion to you is to get married, if you have a good wife you'll be happy, if you have a bad wife you'll become a philosopher. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





The BT strat is not entirely useless as you don't need to spend when you move the LR forward. They can reroll charge rolls (maybe there is also an Advance and charge strat or WT?). In the odd event that you do get into a position to charge something from the raider, spend the CP. Trouble is, who's generally taking Raiders anyway?
   
Made in ca
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





British Columbia

Second part of their trait should have been units can disembark from Land Raiders that have moved. Make Land Raiders ok again!

 Crimson Devil wrote:
That's what 7th edition is about. Yelling "Forge the Narrative Pussy!" while kicking your opponent in the dick.
 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





 Eldarain wrote:
Second part of their trait should have been units can disembark from Land Raiders that have moved. Make Land Raiders ok again!


I'd be down with that.

"in assault doctrine black templars hit and wound automaticly on 6s and charge out of transports that have moved"

I doubt it'd be terriably OP, but it'd defiantly give templars a niche

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





Well, the Impulsor has the new Assault Vehicle rule.


This should have been on the LRs this whole time.
   
Made in gb
Wicked Warp Spider






So BT get updated character sheets but no new models?

Not cool GW... Not cool... I have been eyeing up the emperors champion for a painting project and maybe eventual BT force for a while.. However as its failcast.. I was expecting/hoping for a plastic priamaris update(at this point does it even need to be fluff justified?)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/13 05:38:47


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord






I think people need to be honest with themselves. While GW has expanded the support that the sub-chapters get by way of supplements...it's damned lucky those sub-chapters even got a single Primaris character at the moment. I think anyone expecting new chapter-specific models for things like Black Templars are just setting themselves up for disappointment. An upgrade sprue and maybe one figure would have been all you could have expected and even that is pushing it.

 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




I don't get the complaining. Stuff is super-powerful.

Why do Marines who already have T4 and power armour, as well as a fight twice strat to wrap models get no-overwatch utility stuffed down their throat while Ynnari as the supposed cc-Eldar variant with T3, 5+ models get's none of that? Not to mention doctrines, etc.. on Marine armies that already throw vastly more dice around.

If all Ynnari got in PA1 were just one of the things from just the BT preview, I'd be ecstatic.
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Well, the Impulsor has the new Assault Vehicle rule.


This should have been on the LRs this whole time.


Of course impulsor's assault vehicle rule would be 100% pointless for this stratagem. Cant' charge.

https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/11/29/tneva82-daemon-of-an-ancient-world/<- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
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5150 pts
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Made in de
Perturbed Blood Angel Tactical Marine




 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Well, the Impulsor has the new Assault Vehicle rule.


This should have been on the LRs this whole time.


But you still can't charge after disembarking. Even with the assault vehicle rule.
   
Made in jp
Boosting Black Templar Biker





Ishikawa Prefecture, Japan

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

No Neophytes though? That's a pity if so. Mixed squads of Initiates and Neophytes was a fun little quirk of the Templars.


What's your source on this? I'll be heartbroken I lose my beloved
Spoiler:
meatshields


ahem, I mean apprentice templars!

   
 
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