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Living rules do equal more money...

GW has surely learned the lesson.

Every time balance shifts, products shift from the warehouse. If you do it reasonably well, you can mask it as a balancing process.

The end result is that the company has more profits and the game is more enjoyable. Say what you want, but apart from the last marine incident, the game is decently balanced.

 Galef wrote:
I don't think the main issues with 8E have anything to do with Core Rules, but rather with the implementation of rules upon rules upon more rules, like Supplements and PA

A hypothetical 9E could easily be used to tidy up how those rules are applied while still adhering to the Core Mechinics of 8E.

-

I would say the need to add rules upon rules is enabled by the core mechanics of 8th. The actual core rules are so shallow, especially with the removal of USRs, that all GW can do is write bespoke rules for everything. I don't like it, and I get USRs have their issues, but I would really like to see more rules get put into the core rulebook and standardized for all factions.

 Dendarien wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I don't think the main issues with 8E have anything to do with Core Rules, but rather with the implementation of rules upon rules upon more rules, like Supplements and PA

A hypothetical 9E could easily be used to tidy up how those rules are applied while still adhering to the Core Mechinics of 8E.

-

I would say the need to add rules upon rules is enabled by the core mechanics of 8th. The actual core rules are so shallow, especially with the removal of USRs, that all GW can do is write bespoke rules for everything. I don't like it, and I get USRs have their issues, but I would really like to see more rules get put into the core rulebook and standardized for all factions.

It would work better if they had decent unit cards for all units at time of release.

Well I am still wondering if those rumors regarding Steel Legion are valid or wishful thinking.

SeanDrake wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I expect 9th edition is going to just be a clean up edition. 8th was a big change from 3-7th and thus GW'll be needing to apply the lessons learned

Sadly I reckon you are right. 9th could be a great chance to implement some (if not all) of the rules from Apocalypse in to regular 40K.

Instead what we'll see is essentially what 4th-7th editions were. A tidy up of the core game mechanics with a few tweaks here and there. Given that 8th will be 3 years old in June 2020 it does seem plausible that GW will start the cycle of getting everyone to buy new Codexes/rulebooks again.

I think we’re more likely to see a further AoSifacation of 40k sad to say rather than any actual improvements to the game.

At this point, 'AoSifcation' would be an improvement.
Outside the lack of USRs and going ham on ridiculous special snowflake rules that can't be solved without invalidating everything outside the core book, there are only a few things they can tweak.

Primarily:
Command points and related insanity being the primary offender they could wrangle into sanity by following the AoS model.
General army construction rules, particularly focused on when you get your faction benefits, and what invalidates them, that sort of thing.

Selfcontrol wrote:
I think the french community is not being malicious.

Don't defend Warfo, they are just a whole bunch of evil stupid jerkheads bad people who banned me for complaining too much about no Sisters release.
LOOK AT WHAT THE COMPLAINT GOT US WARFO! AND SHUT YOUR STUPID MOUTH!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Selfcontrol wrote:
And now the big bomb.

Spoiler:

PA will be over in June. V9 will come soon after PA is over.

Just after Sisters finally get a new codex? FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!

The books will carry over. It’ll be like AoS 2.0.

Your bet. Not mine. My opinion on the matter is :
“Trying to guess what GW will do based on either logic, or on what GW did in the past, is like trying to headbutt the wind into a coma.”

Yet another Fulgrim hint in PA2:

[Vox Intercept: Yhedaris System]
'Hear this, you simpering lapdogs! You servile, dull creatures. The Illuminator is coming! Yhedaris is but the first brushstroke upon a grand canvas. He is coming, and with him comes an endless carnival of sensation!'

Addendum: Vox transmission hails from the Cathedrum of the Ashen Heart on Ortus Prime. No response along priority channels. Multiple Heretic warships sighted traversing the Cascar Nebula, on a path towards Black Mantle. Iconography matches that of the Emperor's Children, Excommunicate Traitoris.

Hopefully this means he and his lads are out in 2020, although with the sheer number of hints that have dropped over the last 2.5 years it probably means nothing

If Fulgim is coming (hard hard har!) hopefully slaangors, and human cultists for fantasy come with him!

Carlovonsexron wrote:
If Fulgim is coming (hard hard har!) hopefully slaangors, and human cultists for fantasy come with him!

Ever since they released the special Noise Marine I've wanted to play EC. but I look at the plastic one and the 30k kakophani and wonder why the hell havent they gotten their badassness thru to 40k yet?

I want Fulgrim with the AOS Morathi treatment. it's like a perfect fit. Plastic noise marines, Phoenix Terminators, & Palatine blades would be dope. A sonic "thunderfire" cannon would fill a cool role & sonic dreads just scream.

 ValentineGames wrote:
That mephiston is good.
Could of been amazing if they didn't cock up the hair.

God I just noticed the blood drop on the sword is upside down

How is it upside down? It's the same way round as this picture which was used as the main inspiration.

Selfcontrol wrote:
To answer An Actuel Englishman :

Spoiler:

I think the french community is not being malicious. To be honest, we are not used to have reliable rumour mongers from our own nationality (it might even be a first). We are more used to getting leaks from the anglosphere since the Warseer era.

While Warhammer gained a lot of popularity during the past few years in France, our community is still very small and all "leaks" were published in the form of short posts on a forum. Also, you have to keep in mind that many french people are not good at all in English (it's not really the case for younger generations though) and the aforementioned forum is mainly visited by "french veterans" of Warhammer. Each time we get a leak in English, many people are asking for a translation, for example.

Also, several employees of GW were members of the forum before GW hired them (one example : the designer of the Death Guard minis and Mortation is french and he used to make incredible Nurgle conversions and post pictures on the forum ) and they are still present (although don't post much anymore for obvious reasons), thus why people are even more careful.

That's my analysis of the situation.

PS : the second guy said that C:SM is a "9th edition" Codex. Someone asked him if SoB were a 9th edition too and he said something like "If it has something akin to Combat Doctrines, then yes". That's it.

By Combat Doctrines, I think he meant "An advantage that you lose if you use soup" (= Sacred Rites for SoB).

Not to worry my French friend, it was something of a joke and the irony of moaning about not getting leaks from the French to a Frenchman who is literally giving us leaks is not lost on me

Thanks for the info, its really nice of you to share it.

 Dendarien wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I don't think the main issues with 8E have anything to do with Core Rules, but rather with the implementation of rules upon rules upon more rules, like Supplements and PA

A hypothetical 9E could easily be used to tidy up how those rules are applied while still adhering to the Core Mechinics of 8E.

-

I would say the need to add rules upon rules is enabled by the core mechanics of 8th. The actual core rules are so shallow, especially with the removal of USRs, that all GW can do is write bespoke rules for everything. I don't like it, and I get USRs have their issues, but I would really like to see more rules get put into the core rulebook and standardized for all factions.

Experience shows that GW rules writers are really bad at sticking to a sensible list of universal rules. They want to add their own individual mechanics and will do so given any opportunity. Worse, the less competent ones seem more keen on doing this. A few editions ago, they had a pretty decent list of USRs, but still insisted on adding bespoke rules to units which didn't need them. If they wanted to, they could simply re-use functional rules from other units in 8th edition, but they don't. For example, the Salamanders stratagem which allows one unit to defend another could have used the rules from Grot Shields in the Ork codex, but the writer insisted on coming up with his own mess.

To add to the difficulty, the players seem to actively want this kind of nonsense. They complain when every faction uses a perfectly sensible mechanic like characters who give re-rolls to hit or wound within a radius. They want their own special mechanics.

New trailer is up https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/24/coming-soon-blood-of-baal-battleforces-and-beyond/

I thought the Devastation of Baal novel already covered why the Nids attacked?

Why do I have the feeling that there is going to be some kind of McGuffin that's been hidden there this whole time

GoatboyBeta wrote:
New trailer is up https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/24/coming-soon-blood-of-baal-battleforces-and-beyond/

I thought the Devastation of Baal novel already covered why the Nids attacked

Spoiler:

(the Hive mind was pissed at the BA and wanted them dead)

?

That's just a theory in the novel which some dispute, though PA3 will probably make it official. Every lore discussion online proves that one novel isn't enough.

If they Hive Mind was going to be Angery at any marines, why wouldn't they be angry at the UM? Or has it decided if it's sludgehammer Hive Fleet didn't work, might as well just ignore it?

GoatboyBeta wrote:
New trailer is up https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/24/coming-soon-blood-of-baal-battleforces-and-beyond/

I thought the Devastation of Baal novel already covered why the Nids attacked?

Spoiler:

(the Hive mind was pissed at the BA and wanted them dead)

Why do I have the feeling that there is going to be some kind of McGuffin that's been hidden there this whole time

Surprise Garden of Eden Creation kit. Who knew?

 Perfect Organism wrote:
If they wanted to, they could simply re-use functional rules from other units in 8th edition, but they don't. For example, the Salamanders stratagem which allows one unit to defend another could have used the rules from Grot Shields in the Ork codex, but the writer insisted on coming up with his own mess.

In case you didn't notice, grots cost 3 points each. Space marine models cost 20-50 pts, making it utterly useless on lower end of the range, to "so stupid you're intentionally trying to lose" on the upper end. Especially seeing SM units that would logically try to shield their comrades, Terminators and Agressors, tend to be upper end of that scale. Imagine the howls of ork players if the grot shield stratagem slain whole grot unit on first failed roll - this is what you just proposed. Bravo.

In fact, the rules don't go towards bespoke anywhere near enough. Space marine bodyguards have rules copied from cheap xeno units - which makes them so useless no one takes them. Someone fired plasma or autocannon at your HQ? Bullet suddenly turns into guided cruise missile making hard turns instantly vaporizing several bodyguards, expertly dodging storm shields and force fields, making it one of the dumbest, most immersion breaking rule in the game (and it's not like GW just fears making bodyguards too good, see completely broken Tau drones...)

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Your bet. Not mine. My opinion on the matter is :
“Trying to guess what GW will do based on either logic, or on what GW did in the past, is like trying to headbutt the wind into a coma.”

Well we can look at the odds. GW hard resets:

40k 3rd ed, 8th ed.
FB 6th ed, AOS

So total of 3 times for 40k and FB plus total death of entire game replaced by completely new game.

I like odds of the bet 8th ed codexes will be valid in 9th ed. How much would you be willing to put money on the line?

GoatboyBeta wrote:
New trailer is up https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/24/coming-soon-blood-of-baal-battleforces-and-beyond/

I thought the Devastation of Baal novel already covered why the Nids attacked?

Spoiler:

(the Hive mind was pissed at the BA and wanted them dead)

Why do I have the feeling that there is going to be some kind of McGuffin that's been hidden there this whole time

Nah it's the way they are developing the PA books for certains factions, the Phoenix Rising book was just about explainning tibdits of lore and what led to the battle of Iathglas (wich is the last entrance in the Eldar codex chronology) instead of just the small description.

I would expect the same explaining the preparations in Baal and their fight with the Tyranids there (instead of just explaining some new lore happening after the Indomitus crusade)

 Dendarien wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I don't think the main issues with 8E have anything to do with Core Rules, but rather with the implementation of rules upon rules upon more rules, like Supplements and PA

A hypothetical 9E could easily be used to tidy up how those rules are applied while still adhering to the Core Mechinics of 8E.

-

I would say the need to add rules upon rules is enabled by the core mechanics of 8th. The actual core rules are so shallow, especially with the removal of USRs, that all GW can do is write bespoke rules for everything. I don't like it, and I get USRs have their issues, but I would really like to see more rules get put into the core rulebook and standardized for all factions.

USRs were never important to me. You get those on the datasheet now, and they're just the same as before, with 5+ FNP, Fly, etc. It's the removal of the more complex rules for each phase that does it for me. Without detailed rules for terrain, LoS, or morale, there's a limited amount of things they can do now.

Rules dealing with leadership like ATSKNF or +/- Ld. auras would be far more useful if morale was more debilitating than just "you lose a guy or two"

It's the same problem with the watered down movement phase. No more terrain checks or anything, so it's extremely easy for everyone to race around the table.

One of the biggest weaknesses of 8th is the near total lack of useful terrain rules. That needs fixed.

 Lord Perversor wrote:


Nah it's the way they are developing the PA books for certains factions, the Phoenix Rising book was just about explainning tibdits of lore and what led to the battle of Iathglas (wich is the last entrance in the Eldar codex chronology) instead of just the small description.

I would expect the same explaining the preparations in Baal and their fight with the Tyranids there (instead of just explaining some new lore happening after the Indomitus crusade)

The problem with that is ofc Primaris Mephiston. Unless GW are going to retcon the novel, or the fluff for vol3 is a flashback episode?

 Lord Perversor wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
New trailer is up https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/24/coming-soon-blood-of-baal-battleforces-and-beyond/

I thought the Devastation of Baal novel already covered why the Nids attacked?

Spoiler:

(the Hive mind was pissed at the BA and wanted them dead)

Why do I have the feeling that there is going to be some kind of McGuffin that's been hidden there this whole time

Nah it's the way they are developing the PA books for certains factions, the Phoenix Rising book was just about explainning tibdits of lore and what led to the battle of Iathglas (wich is the last entrance in the Eldar codex chronology) instead of just the small description.

I would expect the same explaining the preparations in Baal and their fight with the Tyranids there (instead of just explaining some new lore happening after the Indomitus crusade)

The video flatly states otherwise. Devastation of Baal happened, this is the 'nids coming back once again, presumably for a GECK hidden on the otherwise barren system (and remember, Baal <whichever> was already completely wiped of life during DoB, by KaBanda and his khorne demons jumping up and down on the hive fleet before wandering off, so there's even less biomass available.

Adaptive Physiology system and Hivefleet traits?

Examples of Adaptive Physiology given are Carnifex with Synapse and camouflaged Tyranid Warriors.

Wonder if this is going to be like 3rd edition Codex's build a Tyranid.

Interested in the "Adaptive Physiology" rules.

Got a Lictor that is a spare-one-at-a-wedding(actually thats a disturbing thought) and would like to turn it into an HQ unit if possible(he's a Kill Team leader at the mo). I've also got a few converted Genestealers with six arms, extended carapace and the tenticle chops, and need something to reflect that in 40K - they look absolute badasses!

Iracundus wrote:
Adaptive Physiology system and Hivefleet traits?

Examples of Adaptive Physiology given are Carnifex with Synapse and camouflaged Tyranid Warriors.

Wonder if this is going to be like 3rd edition Codex's build a Tyranid.

I'm optimistic we will be getting some type of SM style chapter selections, always in cover and rerolling 1s would be nice. Also they've already said we are also getting a new unit of some kind, guessing from the Custodies preview and others it will most likely just a unique character model, but even that small change would be welcome.
Keep in mind were also getting new GSC rules as well, could be a good time to be a bug.

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 Dendarien wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I don't think the main issues with 8E have anything to do with Core Rules, but rather with the implementation of rules upon rules upon more rules, like Supplements and PA

A hypothetical 9E could easily be used to tidy up how those rules are applied while still adhering to the Core Mechinics of 8E.

-

I would say the need to add rules upon rules is enabled by the core mechanics of 8th. The actual core rules are so shallow, especially with the removal of USRs, that all GW can do is write bespoke rules for everything. I don't like it, and I get USRs have their issues, but I would really like to see more rules get put into the core rulebook and standardized for all factions.

Experience shows that GW rules writers are really bad at sticking to a sensible list of universal rules. They want to add their own individual mechanics and will do so given any opportunity. Worse, the less competent ones seem more keen on doing this. A few editions ago, they had a pretty decent list of USRs, but still insisted on adding bespoke rules to units which didn't need them. If they wanted to, they could simply re-use functional rules from other units in 8th edition, but they don't. For example, the Salamanders stratagem which allows one unit to defend another could have used the rules from Grot Shields in the Ork codex, but the writer insisted on coming up with his own mess.

To add to the difficulty, the players seem to actively want this kind of nonsense. They complain when every faction uses a perfectly sensible mechanic like characters who give re-rolls to hit or wound within a radius. They want their own special mechanics.

The reason we wanted bespoke rules back in the day was because USR's changed every edition but your individual codex could go entire editions without being updated. This made rules that were really useful in one edition trash in the next. Bespoke rules "future proofed" a codex so that your units didn't stop working as intended because GW couldn't be assed to release a dark eldar codex more than once a decade for example. USR's were terrible in this environment. A writer would give a unit something like fleet expecting it to do one thing, and 3 years later when a new edition dropped, the codex never got updated and it worked completely differently. This broke units both ways, sometimes making them useless, sometimes making them really OP. Releasing all the codexes in 8th with bespoke rules means that if GW dropped a new edition tomorrow, you could pretty radically change the rules and not break a whole lot more other than how rules interact with say the phases and turns, or if you shook up how weapon types worked.

For the first time in ages, we have the opportunity to have USR's actually work, with all the codexes actually getting a book in the same edition. But even then, I still feel like USR's aren't the best solution because individual rules let's you tweak how it works. For example your version of grot shields vs Salamanders sacrifice. Grots are 3ppm, the salamanders have to use actual marines. Maybe their mechanics shouldn't be the same. That's a debatable thing but I'm just throwing it out there as something to think about. For example, IG relying on directed orders for most buffs instead of mostly aura abilities. That works well, and let's them have unique buffs. Orks have the WAAAGH aura. Admech have stuff like daedolosus and the manipulus. If we're going to have bespoke rules, take advantage of them and make more interesting commander types. Not every leader should just be a lazy "reroll 1's" mechanic, let them do things that reflect their way of fighting.

Personally I'm fine with the bespoke rules for each codex because the way it is now, in theory, is that you can open your codex to the units data page and know everything you need from that page. This way you *shouldn't* need to open the units page, check that, then reference another book for what the rule actually does. Unfortunately GW can't format to save their lives, which leads to really dumb stuff like the IG orders or Admech canticles rules being in front of the painting section for some reason while all the other rules are after it. Not to mention unit data entries will only take up half a page with a huge chunk of blank space, but then they only include like one weapon option, while others list the whole weapon selection, but I digress.

I think I prefer bespoke rules, but I can see why others would prefer the other way.

MiguelFelstone wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
Adaptive Physiology system and Hivefleet traits?

Examples of Adaptive Physiology given are Carnifex with Synapse and camouflaged Tyranid Warriors.

Wonder if this is going to be like 3rd edition Codex's build a Tyranid.

I'm optimistic we will be getting some type of SM style chapter selections, always in cover and rerolling 1s would be nice. Also they've already said we are also getting a new unit of some kind, guessing from the Custodies preview and others it will most likely just a unique character model, but even that small change would be welcome.
Keep in mind were also getting new GSC rules as well, could be a good time to be a bug.

by re-roll 1s I assume you're refering to the slamanders style rule?

Color me pleasantly surprised that Tyranids are getting not just the build-your-own-subfaction system as I had hoped for, but also warlord traits, relics, AND this new adaptive physiology system to boot.

I won't mind at all if BA are 2/3 of the book if the new Nid stuff is halfway decent. It's already sounding like a lot more than just a phoned-in update.