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 Alpharius wrote:
Even more marine models!

No please don't.

Dudeface wrote:
Come on now. You're telling me a marine release of 1 character would be worse than no models? It's clear dark angels will get the love in this book and it's no shock, especially since they're crap on every level atm.

Thanks for asking. Yes. Really yes.

JSG wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Danny76 wrote:

But also, didn’t they say Christmas Day reveal for PA4? We shall see if it’s just a character or more..

I don't think they said the Christmas reveal is tied to PA4 specifically. It could be tied to something else.

"RITUAL OF THE DAMNED. FULL REVEAL 25TH DECEMBER". It's at the end of the PA4 teaser video.

Why would I watch a teaser video for a book I have absolutely no interest in? Fair enough though, hopefully it’s just the single DA character and that’s it as far as new models go. Either way, it’s yet another announcement to have no interest in. Shame.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Even more marine models!

No please don't.

That “whooshing” sound?

Yeah!

Dudeface wrote:
Come on now. You're telling me a marine release of 1 character would be worse than no models? It's clear dark angels will get the love in this book and it's no shock, especially since they're crap on every level atm.

Thanks for asking. Yes. Really yes.

You got your sisters - relax already.

You should be good for at least the next 20 years, minimum!

I've been holding off on painting my small Primaris collection, so I'm actually excited to see if Dark Angels get some goodies out of this book. Ist Legion should get some Dark Age tech.
Otherwise I'm considering Death Company Intercessors just for the funzies.

Maybe we will get some Dark Angel Successor rules?

Definitely feel like starting a non-compliant Chapter that isnt Space Wolves.

I’ll say this, time has gone by and I’ve warmed up to the legion added content in PA2. Not what I was expecting but definitely like building World Eater lists again.

 Alpharius wrote:
That “whooshing” sound?

Yeah!

wat?

 Alpharius wrote:
You should be good for at least the next 20 years, minimum!

no

 Alpharius wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Even more marine models!

No please don't.

That “whooshing” sound?

Yeah!

Dudeface wrote:
Come on now. You're telling me a marine release of 1 character would be worse than no models? It's clear dark angels will get the love in this book and it's no shock, especially since they're crap on every level atm.

Thanks for asking. Yes. Really yes.

You got your sisters - relax already.

You should be good for at least the next 20 years, minimum!

I am really not sure mocking comments like this help anyone do they?

for those thinking of big releases - The GW Chrstmas gift catalogue has already been released - ironically big double page splash on the Ltd Sistes box (that sold out in minutes) that no one can buy so guess they really did not expect to sell as many....

Even if there is no DA model for PA4 - its not like there are not releases for them in Forge World - unlike non Marine/non Custodes Factions.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Even more marine models!

No please don't.

That “whooshing” sound?

Yeah!

Dudeface wrote:
Come on now. You're telling me a marine release of 1 character would be worse than no models? It's clear dark angels will get the love in this book and it's no shock, especially since they're crap on every level atm.

Thanks for asking. Yes. Really yes.

You got your sisters - relax already.

You should be good for at least the next 20 years, minimum!

I am really not sure mocking comments like this help anyone do they?

for those thinking of big releases - The GW Chrstmas gift catalogue has already been released - ironically big double page splash on the Ltd Sistes box (that sold out in minutes) that no one can buy so guess they really did not expect to sell as many....

Even if there is no DA model for PA4 - its not like there are not releases for them in Forge World - unlike non Marine/non Custodes Factions.

You're right, I hope FW release some 30k minis for Eldar and Orks that don't have 40k rules now. Gotta keep those equal privileges!

But you're right people wanting GW to not release anything instead of a model for an army that doesn't interest them is pants on head stupid, so those comments in either direction doesn't help anyone.

Dudeface wrote:
It's not ok for an army to be sat at the bottom of the results table indefinitely though.

Yes it is. Results tables are the results of tournament games. Tournament games are inherently biased against popular armies, especially armies which are even more popular with younger and less skilled players, simply because everyone brings the tools to beat them. If 40k was perfectly balanced for non-tournament play (where you generally either optimise against your actual opponent instead of the most likely opponent, or don't optimise against anything), the most popular army would be permanently at the bottom of tournament results. That would probably mean Codex Marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Chaos Marines in that order, maybe Tau somewhere in the mix. The fact that any of those armies are anywhere in the top half of tournament results means the game is biased in their favour. Now you may not like that your army isn't as favoured as other marine armies, but realistically, being bottom of the tournament results while having the disadvantages of playing a popular army which shares weaknesses with all the other popular armies means that you still have a strong list for normal gaming, probably still better than the average non-marine army.

If you shift the balance so that all marine armies are top-tier, you've effectively made the game unplayable for casual xenos players. Playing my Deathwatch (not generally considered a strong marine codex) against orks means an easy win every time. Playing my orks against any kind of marines is an uphill struggle. Exactly how bad the difference is has varied a bit over the years, but there has always been the same issue. Marines have always been playing the game on easy mode and tournament results do not reflect that because tournament results are biased by an army's popularity.

If you really want Dark Angels to be competitive with more popular marines, you need to address the entire premise that the most popular army needs to be constantly buffed to stay above the bottom of tournament results. As the least popular marine codex, that will only ever work against you. Instead, push for an actually balanced game where all marines are where they should be; average in normal play, bottom of tournament results.

Dudeface wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Even more marine models!

No please don't.

That “whooshing” sound?

Yeah!

Dudeface wrote:
Come on now. You're telling me a marine release of 1 character would be worse than no models? It's clear dark angels will get the love in this book and it's no shock, especially since they're crap on every level atm.

Thanks for asking. Yes. Really yes.

You got your sisters - relax already.

You should be good for at least the next 20 years, minimum!

I am really not sure mocking comments like this help anyone do they?

for those thinking of big releases - The GW Chrstmas gift catalogue has already been released - ironically big double page splash on the Ltd Sistes box (that sold out in minutes) that no one can buy so guess they really did not expect to sell as many....

Even if there is no DA model for PA4 - its not like there are not releases for them in Forge World - unlike non Marine/non Custodes Factions.

You're right, I hope FW release some 30k minis for Eldar and Orks that don't have 40k rules now. Gotta keep those equal privileges!

But you're right people wanting GW to not release anything instead of a model for an army that doesn't interest them is pants on head stupid, so those comments in either direction doesn't help anyone.

Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't make their stance stupid. Continually building resentment towards an army is not good for the hobby. Getting players of different factions excited for the game is good for the hobby. The continued release of nothing but marines is building resentment and killing interest for non-marine players. Especially if the difference in rules quality is marines get the top of the line everything and everyone else gets a bag of dirty needles.

So yes, yet another marine model and the "supplement" that goes with it would not be worth the backlash. Simply giving something else some love and/or changing the order so it isn't non-stop marines since August would do a lot of good. It's a little odd that there was enough time to make supplement tier rules for every possible flavor of marine, but not enough time to proofread the annual balance patch. GK and TS are different enough though that it could be a nice change of pace if they get the attention over yet another basic marine reskin.

 Perfect Organism wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
It's not ok for an army to be sat at the bottom of the results table indefinitely though.

Yes it is. Results tables are the results of tournament games. Tournament games are inherently biased against popular armies, especially armies which are even more popular with younger and less skilled players, simply because everyone brings the tools to beat them. If 40k was perfectly balanced for non-tournament play (where you generally either optimise against your actual opponent instead of the most likely opponent, or don't optimise against anything), the most popular army would be permanently at the bottom of tournament results. That would probably mean Codex Marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Chaos Marines in that order, maybe Tau somewhere in the mix. The fact that any of those armies are anywhere in the top half of tournament results means the game is biased in their favour. Now you may not like that your army isn't as favoured as other marine armies, but realistically, being bottom of the tournament results while having the disadvantages of playing a popular army which shares weaknesses with all the other popular armies means that you still have a strong list for normal gaming, probably still better than the average non-marine army.

If you shift the balance so that all marine armies are top-tier, you've effectively made the game unplayable for casual xenos players. Playing my Deathwatch (not generally considered a strong marine codex) against orks means an easy win every time. Playing my orks against any kind of marines is an uphill struggle. Exactly how bad the difference is has varied a bit over the years, but there has always been the same issue. Marines have always been playing the game on easy mode and tournament results do not reflect that because tournament results are biased by an army's popularity.

If you really want Dark Angels to be competitive with more popular marines, you need to address the entire premise that the most popular army needs to be constantly buffed to stay above the bottom of tournament results. As the least popular marine codex, that will only ever work against you. Instead, push for an actually balanced game where all marines are where they should be; average in normal play, bottom of tournament results.

If you look at the number of lists on 40kstats there are 17 lists for DA, and 59 for Orks. There are obviously more people playing Orks than DA. DA have a monofaction winrate of 41% compared to orks 49%. Non-codex marines are nowhere near as popular in the tournament scene as you seem to believe.

It's not okay for DA to be stuck with bad rules and have to share points costs with a more complete codex. I don't think most DA players (myself included) are looking to get buffed to be the top army in the game, we just want access to the same strats and rules that we are already paying the points costs for. For example, we are paying 12pts for Tac Marines that don't get doctrines. CSM pays 11pts for the same Tac Marines.

Also by your argument, if Marines are average in regular play and bottom in tournament play then DA are stuck below normal SM again and at the actual very bottom of the tournament play bracket... which is where we have been for the last 2 years.

Any army deserves to be at a playable level, even it they are marines.

 Jidmah wrote:
Any army deserves to be at a playable level, even it they are marines.

Yea. That.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Jidmah wrote:
Any army deserves to be at a playable level, even it they are marines.

This. No cares given what faction you're playing and butthurt that you didn't get marine level support.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

JSG wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Danny76 wrote:

But also, didn’t they say Christmas Day reveal for PA4? We shall see if it’s just a character or more..

I don't think they said the Christmas reveal is tied to PA4 specifically. It could be tied to something else.

"RITUAL OF THE DAMNED. FULL REVEAL 25TH DECEMBER". It's at the end of the PA4 teaser video.

Why would I watch a teaser video for a book I have absolutely no interest in? Fair enough though, hopefully it’s just the single DA character and that’s it as far as new models go. Either way, it’s yet another announcement to have no interest in. Shame.

You were putting out incorrect info so I corrected you. There's no need to get defensive, I only used caps because it's capitalised in the video and I'm weird like that.

JSG wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

JSG wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Danny76 wrote:

But also, didn’t they say Christmas Day reveal for PA4? We shall see if it’s just a character or more..

I don't think they said the Christmas reveal is tied to PA4 specifically. It could be tied to something else.

"RITUAL OF THE DAMNED. FULL REVEAL 25TH DECEMBER". It's at the end of the PA4 teaser video.

Why would I watch a teaser video for a book I have absolutely no interest in? Fair enough though, hopefully it’s just the single DA character and that’s it as far as new models go. Either way, it’s yet another announcement to have no interest in. Shame.

You were putting out incorrect info so I corrected you. There's no need to get defensive, I only used caps because it's capitalised in the video and I'm weird like that.

Weird, imagine having an interest in dark angels.

abyrn wrote:

 Perfect Organism wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
It's not ok for an army to be sat at the bottom of the results table indefinitely though.

Yes it is. Results tables are the results of tournament games. Tournament games are inherently biased against popular armies, especially armies which are even more popular with younger and less skilled players, simply because everyone brings the tools to beat them. If 40k was perfectly balanced for non-tournament play (where you generally either optimise against your actual opponent instead of the most likely opponent, or don't optimise against anything), the most popular army would be permanently at the bottom of tournament results. That would probably mean Codex Marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Chaos Marines in that order, maybe Tau somewhere in the mix. The fact that any of those armies are anywhere in the top half of tournament results means the game is biased in their favour. Now you may not like that your army isn't as favoured as other marine armies, but realistically, being bottom of the tournament results while having the disadvantages of playing a popular army which shares weaknesses with all the other popular armies means that you still have a strong list for normal gaming, probably still better than the average non-marine army.

If you shift the balance so that all marine armies are top-tier, you've effectively made the game unplayable for casual xenos players. Playing my Deathwatch (not generally considered a strong marine codex) against orks means an easy win every time. Playing my orks against any kind of marines is an uphill struggle. Exactly how bad the difference is has varied a bit over the years, but there has always been the same issue. Marines have always been playing the game on easy mode and tournament results do not reflect that because tournament results are biased by an army's popularity.

If you really want Dark Angels to be competitive with more popular marines, you need to address the entire premise that the most popular army needs to be constantly buffed to stay above the bottom of tournament results. As the least popular marine codex, that will only ever work against you. Instead, push for an actually balanced game where all marines are where they should be; average in normal play, bottom of tournament results.

If you look at the number of lists on 40kstats there are 17 lists for DA, and 59 for Orks. There are obviously more people playing Orks than DA. DA have a monofaction winrate of 41% compared to orks 49%. Non-codex marines are nowhere near as popular in the tournament scene as you seem to believe.

It's not okay for DA to be stuck with bad rules and have to share points costs with a more complete codex. I don't think most DA players (myself included) are looking to get buffed to be the top army in the game, we just want access to the same strats and rules that we are already paying the points costs for. For example, we are paying 12pts for Tac Marines that don't get doctrines. CSM pays 11pts for the same Tac Marines.

Also by your argument, if Marines are average in regular play and bottom in tournament play then DA are stuck below normal SM again and at the actual very bottom of the tournament play bracket... which is where we have been for the last 2 years.

So no DA model needed - agreed. Just rules and of course all the models that keep coming from FW anyway, oh and all the generic marine models that they can use.....

Which would have been solved with a page pdf and/or a supplement - not a pretend campaign.

but some feel that DA must have another Codex and full model release because...........they just do and all the new Marine models that got via standard Marines somehow don't count.

Same as I am sure thet feel there should be Codex's or at least supplements for at least a couple of each of the Sept, Dynasty, Order Cult, Kabal, Regiment, Troupe etc. RIGHT?

 Mr Morden wrote:

abyrn wrote:

 Perfect Organism wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
It's not ok for an army to be sat at the bottom of the results table indefinitely though.

Yes it is. Results tables are the results of tournament games. Tournament games are inherently biased against popular armies, especially armies which are even more popular with younger and less skilled players, simply because everyone brings the tools to beat them. If 40k was perfectly balanced for non-tournament play (where you generally either optimise against your actual opponent instead of the most likely opponent, or don't optimise against anything), the most popular army would be permanently at the bottom of tournament results. That would probably mean Codex Marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Chaos Marines in that order, maybe Tau somewhere in the mix. The fact that any of those armies are anywhere in the top half of tournament results means the game is biased in their favour. Now you may not like that your army isn't as favoured as other marine armies, but realistically, being bottom of the tournament results while having the disadvantages of playing a popular army which shares weaknesses with all the other popular armies means that you still have a strong list for normal gaming, probably still better than the average non-marine army.

If you shift the balance so that all marine armies are top-tier, you've effectively made the game unplayable for casual xenos players. Playing my Deathwatch (not generally considered a strong marine codex) against orks means an easy win every time. Playing my orks against any kind of marines is an uphill struggle. Exactly how bad the difference is has varied a bit over the years, but there has always been the same issue. Marines have always been playing the game on easy mode and tournament results do not reflect that because tournament results are biased by an army's popularity.

If you really want Dark Angels to be competitive with more popular marines, you need to address the entire premise that the most popular army needs to be constantly buffed to stay above the bottom of tournament results. As the least popular marine codex, that will only ever work against you. Instead, push for an actually balanced game where all marines are where they should be; average in normal play, bottom of tournament results.

If you look at the number of lists on 40kstats there are 17 lists for DA, and 59 for Orks. There are obviously more people playing Orks than DA. DA have a monofaction winrate of 41% compared to orks 49%. Non-codex marines are nowhere near as popular in the tournament scene as you seem to believe.

It's not okay for DA to be stuck with bad rules and have to share points costs with a more complete codex. I don't think most DA players (myself included) are looking to get buffed to be the top army in the game, we just want access to the same strats and rules that we are already paying the points costs for. For example, we are paying 12pts for Tac Marines that don't get doctrines. CSM pays 11pts for the same Tac Marines.

Also by your argument, if Marines are average in regular play and bottom in tournament play then DA are stuck below normal SM again and at the actual very bottom of the tournament play bracket... which is where we have been for the last 2 years.

So no DA model needed - agreed. Just rules and of course all the models that keep coming from FW anyway, oh and all the generic marine models that they can use.....

Which would have been solved with a page pdf and/or a supplement - not a pretend campaign.

but some feel that DA must have another Codex and full model release because...........they just do and all the new Marine models that got via standard Marines somehow don't count.

Same as I am sure thet feel there should be Codex's or at least supplements for at least a couple of each of the Sept, Dynasty, Order Cult, Kabal, Regiment, Troupe etc. RIGHT?

No. Dark Angels have been an army for 20 years, they've had stand alone models for 20 years. Longer than septs or dynasties have existed.

Stop using FW as a scapegoat for releases. Horus heresy releases =/= 40k releases.

Marine hatred is a bigger cancer upon this community atm than marine releases are

Brian888 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Wait, if Yvraine can reverse the Rubric, why doesn't Ahriman just slip that information to Magnus and let Mr. Demon Lord Primarch reverse the whole thing?

He probably doesn't know how to do it/have access to the same powers that Yvraine has at a guess. Of course it might not be in tzeentch's interest to give them bodies back.

Tzeentch doesnt even know what Tzeentch's best interests are. For all we know, the Rubric was their plan all along as a way to further damn the TS. Assisting a nascent challenger to their power does kinda seem like something they would do. Since left head & right head have differing ideas of what is best.

Yeah, if Tzeentch was angry about the Rubric, presumably it would have let Magnus kill Ahriman for doing it. Presumably. It's hard to speculate on any of Tzeentch's motivations or goals.

Tzeentch knows there's only one scenario where he wins.

"Sigh" read my Sig - I AM A MARINE PLAYER - oh and large Dark Angels army - unlike some I am not obsesed with a single sub-sub faction that sucks all the resourses out.

So no HH era models work as 40k models or have 40k rules eh? Wierd cos looks like they do.

You keep mentioning you're a marine player. You seem sick of saying it. The good news is that you can stop if you want - there's no need to mention it, no matter what your opinions on marines are, I don't think it makes much difference.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Spoiler:

Dudeface wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

abyrn wrote:

 Perfect Organism wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
It's not ok for an army to be sat at the bottom of the results table indefinitely though.

Yes it is. Results tables are the results of tournament games. Tournament games are inherently biased against popular armies, especially armies which are even more popular with younger and less skilled players, simply because everyone brings the tools to beat them. If 40k was perfectly balanced for non-tournament play (where you generally either optimise against your actual opponent instead of the most likely opponent, or don't optimise against anything), the most popular army would be permanently at the bottom of tournament results. That would probably mean Codex Marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Chaos Marines in that order, maybe Tau somewhere in the mix. The fact that any of those armies are anywhere in the top half of tournament results means the game is biased in their favour. Now you may not like that your army isn't as favoured as other marine armies, but realistically, being bottom of the tournament results while having the disadvantages of playing a popular army which shares weaknesses with all the other popular armies means that you still have a strong list for normal gaming, probably still better than the average non-marine army.

If you shift the balance so that all marine armies are top-tier, you've effectively made the game unplayable for casual xenos players. Playing my Deathwatch (not generally considered a strong marine codex) against orks means an easy win every time. Playing my orks against any kind of marines is an uphill struggle. Exactly how bad the difference is has varied a bit over the years, but there has always been the same issue. Marines have always been playing the game on easy mode and tournament results do not reflect that because tournament results are biased by an army's popularity.

If you really want Dark Angels to be competitive with more popular marines, you need to address the entire premise that the most popular army needs to be constantly buffed to stay above the bottom of tournament results. As the least popular marine codex, that will only ever work against you. Instead, push for an actually balanced game where all marines are where they should be; average in normal play, bottom of tournament results.

If you look at the number of lists on 40kstats there are 17 lists for DA, and 59 for Orks. There are obviously more people playing Orks than DA. DA have a monofaction winrate of 41% compared to orks 49%. Non-codex marines are nowhere near as popular in the tournament scene as you seem to believe.

It's not okay for DA to be stuck with bad rules and have to share points costs with a more complete codex. I don't think most DA players (myself included) are looking to get buffed to be the top army in the game, we just want access to the same strats and rules that we are already paying the points costs for. For example, we are paying 12pts for Tac Marines that don't get doctrines. CSM pays 11pts for the same Tac Marines.

Also by your argument, if Marines are average in regular play and bottom in tournament play then DA are stuck below normal SM again and at the actual very bottom of the tournament play bracket... which is where we have been for the last 2 years.

So no DA model needed - agreed. Just rules and of course all the models that keep coming from FW anyway, oh and all the generic marine models that they can use.....

Which would have been solved with a page pdf and/or a supplement - not a pretend campaign.

but some feel that DA must have another Codex and full model release because...........they just do and all the new Marine models that got via standard Marines somehow don't count.

Same as I am sure thet feel there should be Codex's or at least supplements for at least a couple of each of the Sept, Dynasty, Order Cult, Kabal, Regiment, Troupe etc. RIGHT?

No. Dark Angels have been an army for 20 years, they've had stand alone models for 20 years. Longer than septs or dynasties have existed.

Stop using FW as a scapegoat for releases. Horus heresy releases =/= 40k releases.

Marine hatred is a bigger cancer upon this community atm than marine releases are

"Sigh" read my Sig - I AM A MARINE PLAYER - oh and large Dark Angels army - unlike some I am not obsesed with a single sub-sub faction that sucks all the resourses out.

So no HH era models work as 40k models or have 40k rules eh? Wierd cos looks like they do.

You're being intentionally obtuse. I never said no heresy era models have rules. But I'd love you to find me 40k rules for a sabre tank, or a jump pack dread, or arquitor bombard. I can assure you that you can't. You know, recent releases.

Forgeworld isn't even accepted at some tourneys still.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Spoiler:

Dudeface wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

abyrn wrote:

 Perfect Organism wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
It's not ok for an army to be sat at the bottom of the results table indefinitely though.

Yes it is. Results tables are the results of tournament games. Tournament games are inherently biased against popular armies, especially armies which are even more popular with younger and less skilled players, simply because everyone brings the tools to beat them. If 40k was perfectly balanced for non-tournament play (where you generally either optimise against your actual opponent instead of the most likely opponent, or don't optimise against anything), the most popular army would be permanently at the bottom of tournament results. That would probably mean Codex Marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Chaos Marines in that order, maybe Tau somewhere in the mix. The fact that any of those armies are anywhere in the top half of tournament results means the game is biased in their favour. Now you may not like that your army isn't as favoured as other marine armies, but realistically, being bottom of the tournament results while having the disadvantages of playing a popular army which shares weaknesses with all the other popular armies means that you still have a strong list for normal gaming, probably still better than the average non-marine army.

If you shift the balance so that all marine armies are top-tier, you've effectively made the game unplayable for casual xenos players. Playing my Deathwatch (not generally considered a strong marine codex) against orks means an easy win every time. Playing my orks against any kind of marines is an uphill struggle. Exactly how bad the difference is has varied a bit over the years, but there has always been the same issue. Marines have always been playing the game on easy mode and tournament results do not reflect that because tournament results are biased by an army's popularity.

If you really want Dark Angels to be competitive with more popular marines, you need to address the entire premise that the most popular army needs to be constantly buffed to stay above the bottom of tournament results. As the least popular marine codex, that will only ever work against you. Instead, push for an actually balanced game where all marines are where they should be; average in normal play, bottom of tournament results.

If you look at the number of lists on 40kstats there are 17 lists for DA, and 59 for Orks. There are obviously more people playing Orks than DA. DA have a monofaction winrate of 41% compared to orks 49%. Non-codex marines are nowhere near as popular in the tournament scene as you seem to believe.

It's not okay for DA to be stuck with bad rules and have to share points costs with a more complete codex. I don't think most DA players (myself included) are looking to get buffed to be the top army in the game, we just want access to the same strats and rules that we are already paying the points costs for. For example, we are paying 12pts for Tac Marines that don't get doctrines. CSM pays 11pts for the same Tac Marines.

Also by your argument, if Marines are average in regular play and bottom in tournament play then DA are stuck below normal SM again and at the actual very bottom of the tournament play bracket... which is where we have been for the last 2 years.

So no DA model needed - agreed. Just rules and of course all the models that keep coming from FW anyway, oh and all the generic marine models that they can use.....

Which would have been solved with a page pdf and/or a supplement - not a pretend campaign.

but some feel that DA must have another Codex and full model release because...........they just do and all the new Marine models that got via standard Marines somehow don't count.

Same as I am sure thet feel there should be Codex's or at least supplements for at least a couple of each of the Sept, Dynasty, Order Cult, Kabal, Regiment, Troupe etc. RIGHT?

No. Dark Angels have been an army for 20 years, they've had stand alone models for 20 years. Longer than septs or dynasties have existed.

Stop using FW as a scapegoat for releases. Horus heresy releases =/= 40k releases.

Marine hatred is a bigger cancer upon this community atm than marine releases are

"Sigh" read my Sig - I AM A MARINE PLAYER - oh and large Dark Angels army - unlike some I am not obsesed with a single sub-sub faction that sucks all the resourses out.

So no HH era models work as 40k models or have 40k rules eh? Wierd cos looks like they do.

Not everyone can see signatures, for what it’s worth. On my iPad sigs don’t show.

JSG wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

JSG wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Danny76 wrote:

But also, didn’t they say Christmas Day reveal for PA4? We shall see if it’s just a character or more..

I don't think they said the Christmas reveal is tied to PA4 specifically. It could be tied to something else.

"RITUAL OF THE DAMNED. FULL REVEAL 25TH DECEMBER". It's at the end of the PA4 teaser video.

Why would I watch a teaser video for a book I have absolutely no interest in? Fair enough though, hopefully it’s just the single DA character and that’s it as far as new models go. Either way, it’s yet another announcement to have no interest in. Shame.

You were putting out incorrect info so I corrected you. There's no need to get defensive, I only used caps because it's capitalised in the video and I'm weird like that.

There's quite literally nothing defensive in my post but OK. Perhaps I was unclear - thanks for the correction, shame the announcement will be a snoozefest for me.

Dudeface wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Spoiler:

Dudeface wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

abyrn wrote:

 Perfect Organism wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
It's not ok for an army to be sat at the bottom of the results table indefinitely though.

Yes it is. Results tables are the results of tournament games. Tournament games are inherently biased against popular armies, especially armies which are even more popular with younger and less skilled players, simply because everyone brings the tools to beat them. If 40k was perfectly balanced for non-tournament play (where you generally either optimise against your actual opponent instead of the most likely opponent, or don't optimise against anything), the most popular army would be permanently at the bottom of tournament results. That would probably mean Codex Marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Chaos Marines in that order, maybe Tau somewhere in the mix. The fact that any of those armies are anywhere in the top half of tournament results means the game is biased in their favour. Now you may not like that your army isn't as favoured as other marine armies, but realistically, being bottom of the tournament results while having the disadvantages of playing a popular army which shares weaknesses with all the other popular armies means that you still have a strong list for normal gaming, probably still better than the average non-marine army.

If you shift the balance so that all marine armies are top-tier, you've effectively made the game unplayable for casual xenos players. Playing my Deathwatch (not generally considered a strong marine codex) against orks means an easy win every time. Playing my orks against any kind of marines is an uphill struggle. Exactly how bad the difference is has varied a bit over the years, but there has always been the same issue. Marines have always been playing the game on easy mode and tournament results do not reflect that because tournament results are biased by an army's popularity.

If you really want Dark Angels to be competitive with more popular marines, you need to address the entire premise that the most popular army needs to be constantly buffed to stay above the bottom of tournament results. As the least popular marine codex, that will only ever work against you. Instead, push for an actually balanced game where all marines are where they should be; average in normal play, bottom of tournament results.

If you look at the number of lists on 40kstats there are 17 lists for DA, and 59 for Orks. There are obviously more people playing Orks than DA. DA have a monofaction winrate of 41% compared to orks 49%. Non-codex marines are nowhere near as popular in the tournament scene as you seem to believe.

It's not okay for DA to be stuck with bad rules and have to share points costs with a more complete codex. I don't think most DA players (myself included) are looking to get buffed to be the top army in the game, we just want access to the same strats and rules that we are already paying the points costs for. For example, we are paying 12pts for Tac Marines that don't get doctrines. CSM pays 11pts for the same Tac Marines.

Also by your argument, if Marines are average in regular play and bottom in tournament play then DA are stuck below normal SM again and at the actual very bottom of the tournament play bracket... which is where we have been for the last 2 years.

So no DA model needed - agreed. Just rules and of course all the models that keep coming from FW anyway, oh and all the generic marine models that they can use.....

Which would have been solved with a page pdf and/or a supplement - not a pretend campaign.

but some feel that DA must have another Codex and full model release because...........they just do and all the new Marine models that got via standard Marines somehow don't count.

Same as I am sure thet feel there should be Codex's or at least supplements for at least a couple of each of the Sept, Dynasty, Order Cult, Kabal, Regiment, Troupe etc. RIGHT?

No. Dark Angels have been an army for 20 years, they've had stand alone models for 20 years. Longer than septs or dynasties have existed.

Stop using FW as a scapegoat for releases. Horus heresy releases =/= 40k releases.

Marine hatred is a bigger cancer upon this community atm than marine releases are

"Sigh" read my Sig - I AM A MARINE PLAYER - oh and large Dark Angels army - unlike some I am not obsesed with a single sub-sub faction that sucks all the resourses out.

So no HH era models work as 40k models or have 40k rules eh? Wierd cos looks like they do.

You're being intentionally obtuse. I never said no heresy era models have rules. But I'd love you to find me 40k rules for a sabre tank, or a jump pack dread, or arquitor bombard. I can assure you that you can't. You know, recent releases.

Forgeworld isn't even accepted at some tourneys still.

I think its pretty obtuse to claim that any displeasure at the marine releases is a 'cancer' on the community. It is also incredibly stupid to claim that people would rather see 'nothing' than 'marine models'. This is obviously not true. People want SOMETHING ELSE. They are sick, tired and bored of marine model releases. While working on marine models GW could obviously use that time to work on other, none Marine models. That is what people want to see. This isn't a complex thing to unpack. I guarantee if another faction, any other faction, had anywhere near the number of releases as marines, the marine players would be the loudest complainers going. Just as they were the loudest complainers when their codex wasn't OP (they still had competitive builds, as much as most other factions).

The entitled marine mentality really sucks the fun out of this hobby.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

The entitled marine mentality really sucks the fun out of this hobby.

The Entitled ANYONE mentality sucks the fun out of the hobby.

I think its pretty obtuse to claim that any displeasure at the marine releases is a 'cancer' on the community.

Its certainly a cancer on News and Rumor threads, as the same handful of people can't stopped derailing threads by complaining about marines.

Voss wrote:

I think its pretty obtuse to claim that any displeasure at the marine releases is a 'cancer' on the community.

Its certainly a cancer on News and Rumor threads, as the same handful of people can't stopped derailing threads by complaining about marines.

I don't disagree and have warned against going off topic multiple times.

I note there are as many marine apologists eager to jump on any negativity regarding marine releases (even when directly related to the N&R topic) as 'cancer' or 'derailing' etc

E - stating you dislike the Marine releases or are bored of the next PA (because it focuses on marines or whatever) is NOT off topic when the topic is 'PA releases'. It is no more off topic than "wow I love that model and can't wait for it".

Voss wrote:

I think its pretty obtuse to claim that any displeasure at the marine releases is a 'cancer' on the community.

Its certainly a cancer on News and Rumor threads, as the same handful of people can't stopped derailing threads by complaining about marines.

It really is isn't it. As people see to have missed all the other warnings lets make this one nice and big and red.
Enough. Anyone dragging N&R off topic to whine about this subject again will be suspended. I and most other people are sick of it. Stop. Now.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Brian888 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Wait, if Yvraine can reverse the Rubric, why doesn't Ahriman just slip that information to Magnus and let Mr. Demon Lord Primarch reverse the whole thing?

He probably doesn't know how to do it/have access to the same powers that Yvraine has at a guess. Of course it might not be in tzeentch's interest to give them bodies back.

Tzeentch doesnt even know what Tzeentch's best interests are. For all we know, the Rubric was their plan all along as a way to further damn the TS. Assisting a nascent challenger to their power does kinda seem like something they would do. Since left head & right head have differing ideas of what is best.

Yeah, if Tzeentch was angry about the Rubric, presumably it would have let Magnus kill Ahriman for doing it. Presumably. It's hard to speculate on any of Tzeentch's motivations or goals.

Tzeentch knows there's only one scenario where he wins.

Just to throw more fuel on the fire - did anyone else notice that the new CSM kit's transfer sheet includes transfers for the Thousand Sons?

I imagine that was because they discontinued the old ones. The reboxed CSM Rhino likely comes with the new one, and this way you can put the TS icons on a TS Rhino.