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It will make you feel bad about spending CP on a slightly modified (more mobility, but fewer shots) First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire, which is built into less expensive guard units.
And those Guard units:
-Can't pop up.
-Can't be bolstered to 20 strong units, except with a Stratagem
-Don't come with the option for lasguns across the board for the squad
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/05 17:57:24
FatBoyNoSlim wrote: That new GSC autogun strat is not as worthless as some people believe.
As an almost pure neophyte Cult player, I often run multiple full sized blobs of neophytes, armed with Mining Lasers and Grenade Launchers. One of the big problems I have found is being able to cram all my deepstriking shooting into rapid fire range. I have previously got round this by using the Lying in Wait strat to let me get within 3" but it still causes me a big headache when I am Ambushing 120 infantry in a turn.
This lets me have another full blob of infantry Ambush comfortably without losing out on any firepower.
Does the Tau strat allow for more raw damage output. Sure. But the cult strat is a good tool to have and gives the cult more tactical flexibility.
I am personally quite happy with this strat, because it has some good tactical uses, is only 1 CP but isn't totally broken. It is a great example of what a stratagem should be!
I am not a GW fan boy by any means, I think the current state of 8th is really bad thanks to marines. But People cry when GW releases OP stuff and then they also cry when GW releases normal power level stuff. I guess we all wish GW could just be more consistent.
GSC have access to lasgun-armed units who can get this ability, but better, for 20% less cost and no CP. Brood Brothers infantry squads with Brood Brothers Company Commanders.
Why would you not use those, and instead bring your 10-man neophyte squads with more special and heavy weapons instead?
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Tyel wrote: If Prepared Ambush also let the unit shoot at characters it might be interesting. As it is though I'm suspect you would ever spend the CP.
I agree that stratagems shouldn't be auto-takes, but spending 1 CP to maybe do a wound on an Intercessor? Doesn't seem like a fair exchange.
Well yeah, autoguns aren't good at clearing heavy infantry. Chaff though? Might be worth the 1CP to grab a few extra kills. I could see it useful for spawning in a ruin on an enemy's flank, harass them with a bucket of shots for the first turn and continue to pepper them afterwards. I don't think its that useless. I've seen worst.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/05 18:14:24
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Yes it's flexible, but what will it actually achieve?
Hopefully it will achieve an errata to Rapid Fire 2.
Which means at 13" or further, it's the same thing as being Assault 2.
Let's not forget that we're now seeing items/wargear that block setup within 12" rather than the usual 9".
Yep it would be equally a waste of 1CP if it were Rapid Fire 2 outside of 12".
The issue is not that it is only usable where you are blocked from setting up within RF range, the issue is that it only does anything for Autoguns which, mathematically, won't kill much extra for the cost of 1CP (GSC are already CP hungry). The opportunity cost of an extra Primaris kill is too high for this strat.
Not a fan of it, because I don't want my autogun totting chaffe to run and shoot when they also have mining lasers in the unit that WONT get to shoot if they advance. Barring a cult trait, of course.
Even then, only time I've ever taken big blobs of Neophytes was for shotguns at close range when they popped up. Otherwise it's min units with maximum firepower so there is better coverage across the board.... Two seperate units on either side of the board in cover are usually better than 1 massive one that might not fit in cover.
PourSpelur wrote: It's fully within the rules for me to look up your Facebook page, find out your dear Mother Gladys is single, take her on a lovely date, and tell you all the details of our hot, sweaty, animal sex during your psychic phase.
I mean, fifty bucks is on the line.
There's no rule that says I can't.
Carnikang wrote: Not a fan of it, because I don't want my autogun totting chaffe to run and shoot when they also have mining lasers in the unit that WONT get to shoot if they advance. Barring a cult trait, of course.
Even then, only time I've ever taken big blobs of Neophytes was for shotguns at close range when they popped up. Otherwise it's min units with maximum firepower so there is better coverage across the board.... Two seperate units on either side of the board in cover are usually better than 1 massive one that might not fit in cover.
You cannot even use it to run and shoot (despite making the weapons assault weapons).
It's limited only to units that arrive via Cult Ambush from reinforcements. Having Neophytes advance and shoot autoguns (on 5+) would've clearly been broken.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/02/05 19:52:17
Carnikang wrote: Not a fan of it, because I don't want my autogun totting chaffe to run and shoot when they also have mining lasers in the unit that WONT get to shoot if they advance. Barring a cult trait, of course.
Even then, only time I've ever taken big blobs of Neophytes was for shotguns at close range when they popped up. Otherwise it's min units with maximum firepower so there is better coverage across the board.... Two seperate units on either side of the board in cover are usually better than 1 massive one that might not fit in cover.
You won't be able to run and shoot though, because you activate the strat in the shooting phase. Its really just to allow you to double tap at max range without allowing you to quadruple tap at medium range.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Carnikang wrote: Not a fan of it, because I don't want my autogun totting chaffe to run and shoot when they also have mining lasers in the unit that WONT get to shoot if they advance. Barring a cult trait, of course.
Even then, only time I've ever taken big blobs of Neophytes was for shotguns at close range when they popped up. Otherwise it's min units with maximum firepower so there is better coverage across the board.... Two seperate units on either side of the board in cover are usually better than 1 massive one that might not fit in cover.
You cannot even use it to run and shoot (despite making the weapons assault weapons).
It's limited only to units that arrive via Cult Ambush from reinforcements. Having Neophytes advance and shoot autoguns (on 5+) would've clearly been broken.
psssh, yeah, hitting on 5s, that's for your vehicles! Your fast scouty but more fragile vehicles piloted by crazy cultists that we gave all heavy weapons so you have to either sit them still and use them like stationary gun turrets or lose 33% of your firepower.
Meanwhile we just hand that move and shoot heavy penalty out like candy to the faction that has access to full hit rerolls on 90pt characters.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Yeah, the hit penalties for heavy weapons shouldn't apply to vehicles. That's a stupid rule.
About as stupid as not being able to shoot a character out in the open because there happens to be a grot hiding being a wall just a fraction of an inch closer.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
At least until we find there's another that also makes them snipers...character targeting and mortal wounds on a 6 etc
But at the moment, it does seem a little underwhelming.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/05 20:04:28
At least until we find there's another that also makes them snipers...character targeting and mortal wounds on a 6 etc
But at the moment, it does seem a little underwhelming.
yeah that...also would not be good. Because you could just bring a kelermorph for...let's see...20pts less. And not spend a bunch of CP on him.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Carnikang wrote: Not a fan of it, because I don't want my autogun totting chaffe to run and shoot when they also have mining lasers in the unit that WONT get to shoot if they advance. Barring a cult trait, of course.
Even then, only time I've ever taken big blobs of Neophytes was for shotguns at close range when they popped up. Otherwise it's min units with maximum firepower so there is better coverage across the board.... Two seperate units on either side of the board in cover are usually better than 1 massive one that might not fit in cover.
You won't be able to run and shoot though, because you activate the strat in the shooting phase. Its really just to allow you to double tap at max range without allowing you to quadruple tap at medium range.
See, I skimmed the strat and didn't even see it. Useless for the majority of GSC lists and playstyles....
PourSpelur wrote: It's fully within the rules for me to look up your Facebook page, find out your dear Mother Gladys is single, take her on a lovely date, and tell you all the details of our hot, sweaty, animal sex during your psychic phase.
I mean, fifty bucks is on the line.
There's no rule that says I can't.
the_scotsman wrote: yeah that...also would not be good. Because you could just bring a kelermorph for...let's see...20pts less. And not spend a bunch of CP on him.
The argument would be that you could do both.
Or rather make a decision based on your opponents army/positioning etc.
This is just... some situational extra autogun rounds.
Yes, maybe there is going to be "that time" when you find you need to kill 3 guardsmen, a mighty 12 points, to finish a squad and thereby deny an objective or get kill more in ITC, and for some reason you couldn't stick your Neophyte squad in 12" because... reasons.
But it seems incredibly niche.
Its the creep of the game. This might not have been a crazy stratagem in the first 12 months of 8th. But it seems very weak now.
FatBoyNoSlim wrote: That new GSC autogun strat is not as worthless as some people believe.
As an almost pure neophyte Cult player, I often run multiple full sized blobs of neophytes, armed with Mining Lasers and Grenade Launchers. One of the big problems I have found is being able to cram all my deepstriking shooting into rapid fire range. I have previously got round this by using the Lying in Wait strat to let me get within 3" but it still causes me a big headache when I am Ambushing 120 infantry in a turn.
This lets me have another full blob of infantry Ambush comfortably without losing out on any firepower.
Does the Tau strat allow for more raw damage output. Sure. But the cult strat is a good tool to have and gives the cult more tactical flexibility.
I am personally quite happy with this strat, because it has some good tactical uses, is only 1 CP but isn't totally broken. It is a great example of what a stratagem should be!
I am not a GW fan boy by any means, I think the current state of 8th is really bad thanks to marines. But People cry when GW releases OP stuff and then they also cry when GW releases normal power level stuff. I guess we all wish GW could just be more consistent.
GSC have access to lasgun-armed units who can get this ability, but better, for 20% less cost and no CP. Brood Brothers infantry squads with Brood Brothers Company Commanders.
Why would you not use those, and instead bring your 10-man neophyte squads with more special and heavy weapons instead?
20% less cost? Let me guess the company commander is free? People need to realise orders are not built in and are not auras. They’re good yeah but limited in many ways and guard has the downside of almost no auras.
Well. "Don't use it and pretend it doesn't exist" is pretty much what GW should just print onto all books and boxes for GSC these days.
Seems like the best thing GSC will be getting in that book is the Astra Miltiarum Bullgryn stuff to slap another -1 to hit on your Hive Guard or Genestealers something.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/05 21:41:28
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, the hit penalties for heavy weapons shouldn't apply to vehicles. That's a stupid rule.
About as stupid as not being able to shoot a character out in the open because there happens to be a grot hiding being a wall just a fraction of an inch closer.
Feel free to come up with better rule that doesn't result in rhino sniping like in earlier edition
The only successful thing this stratagem has done is make people actually discuss the merits of an insignificant amount of S3 shooting.
The only time it would ever be useful is if you absolutely need to kill a tiny unit off an objective and the only thing you have are autoguns coming in from reserve. Otherwise, it's terrible.
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I mean in the best case scenario it's kinda like a double shoot stratagem for anti chaff duty for 1cp I do wonder though, why you'd use it considering that you still would be rather close?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
I dont think anyone is argueing that the autogun strat is super powerful, I kinda like it and I am not even saying its great.
I just think that is a good example of what a 1CP strat should be like, a nice little buff that has some tactical flexibility. A 1CP strat SHOULD only let you kill an extra marine whilst getting to deploy much further away, it shouldnt delete a whole enemy unit!
The problem is simply that Marines have broken the game as many of their strats/abilities are extremely powerful but still only cost 1 CP. Now everyone compares anything new with what marines got. But that also means that most new releases are met with disappointment and negativity.
6000 pts of Foot Guard
"I once gave the order to one of my platoons to fix bayonets and charge a squad of genestealers. If they believed in the emperor hard enough they could win... I don't think they believed enough..."
Sunny Side Up wrote: Well. "Don't use it and pretend it doesn't exist" is pretty much what GW should just print onto all books and boxes for GSC these days.
Seems like the best thing GSC will be getting in that book is the Astra Miltiarum Bullgryn stuff to slap another -1 to hit on your Hive Guard or Genestealers something.
I don't think GSC can make use of [ASTRA MILITARUM] stratagems, can they?
At least until we find there's another that also makes them snipers...character targeting and mortal wounds on a 6 etc
But at the moment, it does seem a little underwhelming.
yeah that...also would not be good. Because you could just bring a kelermorph for...let's see...20pts less. And not spend a bunch of CP on him.
Kelermorph generally needs 2-5CP. 12" guns and a target that doesn't want to be closest (plus the 9" deep strike range) means you're usually using 'Lying in Wait' to let him get a shot (if even that is possible). And might need the extra round of shooting from Perfect Ambush if going for a Marine Character. Also no option here for getting past good ward saves, as the Kelermorph is a gunslinger and not a sniper. The example of 40 shots getting MW on a 6 to wound (with Primus and Alphus options to improve matters) is quite different.
But anyway, this is just all make believe . Just saying, whilst the strat seems bad on it's own - there's things you could combine it with to make it properly fearsome. Just have to wait to see if they do.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Well. "Don't use it and pretend it doesn't exist" is pretty much what GW should just print onto all books and boxes for GSC these days.
Seems like the best thing GSC will be getting in that book is the Astra Miltiarum Bullgryn stuff to slap another -1 to hit on your Hive Guard or Genestealers something.
I don't think GSC can make use of [ASTRA MILITARUM] stratagems, can they?
Brood Brother detachment is a Astra militarum one. As that's the only thing locking away their strats.
Though they specifically don't get Genestealer Cult as a faction keyword.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/05 23:09:55
Sunny Side Up wrote: Well. "Don't use it and pretend it doesn't exist" is pretty much what GW should just print onto all books and boxes for GSC these days.
Seems like the best thing GSC will be getting in that book is the Astra Miltiarum Bullgryn stuff to slap another -1 to hit on your Hive Guard or Genestealers something.
I don't think GSC can make use of [ASTRA MILITARUM] stratagems, can they?
Brood Brother detachment is a Astra militarum one. As that's the only thing locking away their strats.
Though they specifically don't get Genestealer Cult as a faction keyword.
Wait, so a "Brood Brothers" detachment in a 'Forces of the Hivemind' army has access to all of the AM stratagems?! Dayummm. So a buff to AM strats is potentially a buff to GSC too? Right?
If true and not insta faqed Like say mortal flamers,then yes by extension that is indeed the case.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Wait, so a "Brood Brothers" detachment in a 'Forces of the Hivemind' army has access to all of the AM stratagems?! Dayummm. So a buff to AM strats is potentially a buff to GSC too? Right?
Depending on the wording, that could be right. A lot of their strats refer to ASTRA MILITARUM only, so most only affect the Brood Brothers detachment.
However this one refers to friendly units so can easily apply to GSC or Tyranids in the same army. What's more funny is that the new Maleceptor strat to reduce ranged weapon strength on friendly units is worded the same way, so can buff Brood Brothers AM units.
Wait, so a "Brood Brothers" detachment in a 'Forces of the Hivemind' army has access to all of the AM stratagems?! Dayummm. So a buff to AM strats is potentially a buff to GSC too? Right?
Depending on the wording, that could be right. A lot of their strats refer to ASTRA MILITARUM only, so most only affect the Brood Brothers detachment.
However this one refers to friendly units so can easily apply to GSC or Tyranids in the same army. What's more funny is that the new Maleceptor strat to reduce ranged weapon strength on friendly units is worded the same way, so can buff Brood Brothers AM units.
Interesting! Sounds unintended to me, though. I'd hate to be a Guard player (or AM or whatever) and have all of my tasty strats also ported over to another faction that has it's own (hopefully?) tasty strats. Feels like there's no incentive to play mono-Guard, which is poor design IMO.
I feel this gets asked more and more often.
But is it weird that presumably the usual outriders will be getting this book on Friday but leaks seem to have been so few and far between?
I realise its impatience - we'll probably have a full breakdown in at least 48 hours - but I want it nowww....
~4100
~1660
(3000+ Points)
GSC (1500ish points)
Renegades - 
6000 pts of Foot Guard
