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 Jidmah wrote:
I once forced an eldar player to write paper slips with his psychic powers on them because he kept losing track of what units had what buffs applied to them and which psykers had attempted, failed or succeeded what. It doesn't matter whether he was trying something shady or not, but if you try to use a fortune re-roll on a unit which was not targeted with that power, you are going to do the paperwork for me.

Maybe it's the Warmachine player in me (though likely that game just cemented what had become best practice) but the idea of *not* having a clear visual representation of in-game effects via tokens, putting the psychic card next to the unit, etc. seems nigh inconceivable to present-day me.

WYSIWYG-wise, I don't care if you play your ultramarine-colored space marines as whatever chapter, as long as you say that up front and clearly. And like many have said, different chapters within the same army MUST be painted distinctively. Cherrypicking the optimal traits for different detachments is fun and all but different chapters need to be clear to the opponent as well.

Also, if you have special weapons in squads (like plasma/melta/powerfist/whatever) they MUST be represented on the models.

Proxying is also fine as long as the models look the part even remotely and again, it's clearly announced. If the same guy is running the same proxies game after game I might strongly encourage them to buy the proper minis already...

I think all of these are valid requirements even if an "official" WYSIWYG rule might not exist. Certainly not something that could mandate any "that guy" claims.

I just want to say I have over 400$ of DW Killteam squads because of the changes to the weapons, costs, and rules. I didn't proxy, I didn't freeze, snap off, and re-do, I just bought a new box. Honestly, given how much of a part modeling plays in this hobby, the fact that people hate to do it confuse me. But to each their own.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I just want to say I have over 400$ of DW Killteam squads because of the changes to the weapons, costs, and rules. I didn't proxy, I didn't freeze, snap off, and re-do, I just bought a new box. Honestly, given how much of a part modeling plays in this hobby, the fact that people hate to do it confuse me. But to each their own.

Money?
Not everyone wants to reinvest all the time?

 Nazrak wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
Maybe they should put a little foresight into it before committing to a Chapter, then. Or possibly make up a Successor Chapter specifically so they aren't tied to a specific trait.

Two of my regular Marine opponents picked their Chapter twenty-five years ago. Enlighten us, what will the chapter tactics of Ultramarine be in 2044?

My view of this is "Who cares? Play them as Ultramarines no matter what."

Their approach was laughing maniacally like a cartoon villain whenever the IF trait denied a cover save


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 Weazel wrote:
Also, if you have special weapons in squads (like plasma/melta/powerfist/whatever) they MUST be represented on the models.

Proxying is also fine as long as the models look the part even remotely and again, it's clearly announced. If the same guy is running the same proxies game after game I might strongly encourage them to buy the proper minis already...

I agree in general, but what if there is no model with that load-out? For example, there is no Plague Marine champion without a power fist, though you usually wouldn't give one to him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I just want to say I have over 400$ of DW Killteam squads because of the changes to the weapons, costs, and rules. I didn't proxy, I didn't freeze, snap off, and re-do, I just bought a new box. Honestly, given how much of a part modeling plays in this hobby, the fact that people hate to do it confuse me. But to each their own.

Some people hate modeling.
Some people hate painting.
Some people hate playing.
Some people hate reading the lore.
Some people just hate all the time.

You can't have fun the wrong way

Which is fine if that is how you feel, others like playing competitively and as such would like to have good rules if possible. Or maybe they like a certain playstyle that is represented better by another chapter.

Great for you that you don't care about the rules. Poor sportsmanship in looking down on anyone who feels differently.

 Jidmah wrote:

Their approach was laughing maniacally like a cartoon villain whenever the IF trait denied a cover save

Hahaha, yep, that's what I like to hear.

 Jidmah wrote:


You can't have fun the wrong way

Unless your kink is being kinkshamed.

In which case you are having fun wrong, you naughty person.

Breng77 wrote:
Or maybe they like a certain playstyle that is represented better by another chapter.

This is a big one. Rules can change a lot over time, and the current rules don't necessarily match what used to be fluffy for a particular sub-faction.

I have a friend with a Nidzilla army painted up in Hydra colors, because he started with Space Hulk and liked the color scheme of the Genestealers in it. Hydra gives you bonuses when you outnumber the enemy. It is completely worthless for his army. I see no good reason to force him to run his army under a useless hive fleet just because of how he painted it.

How about Astra Militarum regiments, where it's not just colors, but actual sculpts? Should every player who has Cadian models and happens to be using one of the dozens of canonical Cadian color schemes be forced to play them as Cadians? Am I not allowed to use my Death Korps models as regular Astra Militarum?

Yup, or painted their army when there were no special rules for factions (almost every non-marine army prior to 8th) and now their models are not aided by the rules much like you point out.

Personally to me paint scheme should be chosen based on what a player likes aesthetically (or fluff if they want), and not be tied to the rules, especially when the rules change.

 Ishagu wrote:
I have recently become a lot more hardline in regards to WYSIWYG. Too many people are cutting corner to chase the meta and my sympathy has expired.

I don't allow my opponent to use proxies. Also, if they have painted their models in the colour of a popular, established chapter they shouldn't be playing them as anything else. Custom Chapters are an exception of course, they could be anything. But if your army is very much a Ultramarine force right down to unit markings they shouldn't be using the rules of Raven Guard/Iron Hands, etc

You want to have the best stuff? That's perfectly fine. Go out, buy it, and paint it accordingly.

I have to step in and say that forcing people to play a chapter because, back when they didn't matter, the player painted their models blue, isn't a great ethic.

If someone has a beautifully painted ultrasmurf army, but wants to use ravenguard on all of them, that's fine by me.

If someone has a beautifully painted ultrasmurf army and wants to play it as 3-4 other chapters depending on what the unit in question is doing this game, no, sorry, that's too much taking the mickey.

I'd never expect them to repaint a force, but I would want some visual cue to know what I'm playing, and some consistency in the cue. If the paint doesn't change, I'd like to see something else. Bring back Banners!

Breng77 wrote:
Yup, or painted their army when there were no special rules for factions (almost every non-marine army prior to 8th) and now their models are not aided by the rules much like you point out.

Personally to me paint scheme should be chosen based on what a player likes aesthetically (or fluff if they want), and not be tied to the rules, especially when the rules change.

That's not really a thing. Every chapter can use any generic unit, and they get bonuses that are all perfectly thematic to their own lore.

What could they have built hat can be a problem? A 5 Repulsor White Scar army?



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 some bloke wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
I have recently become a lot more hardline in regards to WYSIWYG. Too many people are cutting corner to chase the meta and my sympathy has expired.

I don't allow my opponent to use proxies. Also, if they have painted their models in the colour of a popular, established chapter they shouldn't be playing them as anything else. Custom Chapters are an exception of course, they could be anything. But if your army is very much a Ultramarine force right down to unit markings they shouldn't be using the rules of Raven Guard/Iron Hands, etc

You want to have the best stuff? That's perfectly fine. Go out, buy it, and paint it accordingly.

I have to step in and say that forcing people to play a chapter because, back when they didn't matter, the player painted their models blue, isn't a great ethic.

If someone has a beautifully painted ultrasmurf army, but wants to use ravenguard on all of them, that's fine by me.

If someone has a beautifully painted ultrasmurf army and wants to play it as 3-4 other chapters depending on what the unit in question is doing this game, no, sorry, that's too much taking the mickey.

I'd never expect them to repaint a force, but I would want some visual cue to know what I'm playing, and some consistency in the cue. If the paint doesn't change, I'd like to see something else. Bring back Banners!

I don't come across many truly spectacular looking armies painted as one thing and used as another. I'm sure they are out there, of course. Here's the thing: Some people don't really have any affection for the Chapter they've chosen. I'm sure there are thousands of Ultramarines armies out there right now that were only painted as such because they were the best Astartes at the start of 8th edition. These are typically the people who jump to other chapter rules - and make no mistake, they only do so for a game advantage if they feel something is better. If you wanna be a Meta chaser go right ahead, but don't expect me to be accepting of your army for taking shortcuts.

Consistency is key. I had some Fire Warriors that were modeled with pulse carbines, some with breacher helmets and carbines, most with pulse rifles and regular helmets. Never had a problem when I went "every fire warrior is ____ Sept and every weapon is a pulse rifle." Same goes with "All the firesight Marksmen and the ethereal are Sac'cea." Before I tracked down some CIBs, I would use plasma rifles to represent them, but as long as I never took actual plasma rifles it wasn't a problem. It helps to have a copy of your list with the color coding or any differences. If your opponent can't tell units apart strictly from looking at your written list with color/bit coding and looking at your models WITHOUT YOU TALKING then it probably isn't clear enough. 3 Different flavors of marine that are all the same color? Nah you aren't a jerk.

 Ishagu wrote:
Or you actually paint a chapter you like instead of just chasing rules?

If you only care about the rules you will get burned eventually. Power rises and falls often in 40k.

Yeah, this is cute and all (in a judgemental 'other people should be punished for wanting fun' sort of way) But fluff changes too. The 'chapters I liked' back in 1st and 2nd aren't recognisable anymore. They don't have the same background and don't even have the same colors.

 some bloke wrote:

I have to step in and say that forcing people to play a chapter because, back when they didn't matter, the player painted their models blue, isn't a great ethic.

If someone has a beautifully painted ultrasmurf army, but wants to use ravenguard on all of them, that's fine by me.

If someone has a beautifully painted ultrasmurf army and wants to play it as 3-4 other chapters depending on what the unit in question is doing this game, no, sorry, that's too much taking the mickey.

I'd never expect them to repaint a force, but I would want some visual cue to know what I'm playing, and some consistency in the cue. If the paint doesn't change, I'd like to see something else. Bring back Banners!

That is also a very good way to make people not paint their models ever. Not painted=can use any chapter rule. And if someone is an A hole about 5 colours, then it is going to be green base, red eyes, silver on the bolters, black undercoat and bags/holster in grey or white. 5 colours, but my army is still being "painted" am totaly going for the X chapter, and yes I do have painted models fully.... at home.

But this wasn't that. The example I provided was a player with a Ultramarines army. Perhaps more detail is needed. It was mostly all Primaris squads, aggressors, some scouts, a couple Contempters, and a Repulsor.

 Ishagu wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Yup, or painted their army when there were no special rules for factions (almost every non-marine army prior to 8th) and now their models are not aided by the rules much like you point out.

Personally to me paint scheme should be chosen based on what a player likes aesthetically (or fluff if they want), and not be tied to the rules, especially when the rules change.

That's not really a thing. Every chapter can use any generic unit, and they get bonuses that are all perfectly thematic to their own lore.

What could they have built hat can be a problem? A 5 Repulsor White Scar army?



.

I had an ultramarine Bike army from 5th edition which I painted largely because I liked painting blue better than white, at the time it largely did not matter beyond special characters what marine force you chose from the standard marine codex. I also like the ability to choose to fail morale and fall back that basic marines had (vs say a ravenwing army which I also ran). So ultramarines could still work for this to some extent, however the White Scars rules better suited my more aggressive play style with their stratagem to advance shoot and assault, and to be able to fall back and charge.

You are making a large assumption that every person that paints a particular chapter does so because they wanted to play an army that fit that lore rather than that they like a paint scheme and at some point that did not matter, and as long as you don't choose an existing chapter it still doesn't

These days I always avoid chapter paint schemes just for the attitude you have here that how you paint something should effect its abilities on the table top.

Or as pointed out by a previous poster who had a friend with a Nidzilla army using tactics that gave no benefit.

SO if your argument is "you can always use the models, so being effective is not important, or having wasted rules on the table top is not important." That is your choice, but not one I agree with.

Or... you can just stop bandwagoning and be loyal to the army that made you fall into the game.

I still rock my DA army despite being one of the bottom tier armies. I just choose my fights wisely.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
But this wasn't that. The example I provided was a player with a Ultramarines army. Perhaps more detail is needed. It was mostly all Primaris squads, aggressors, some scouts, a couple Contempters, and a Repulsor.

Oh I agree with you that players should make everything to not make their army confusing, and making in confusing on purpose is IMO, same tier as cheating. What I can't accept though is someone being forced to play army X, just because they use a specific shade of green on their models. what if someone has a DA army, it is clearly DA as they say it is DA, but for what ever reason they are more light green then dark green? Am I to assume that such a person should be stoped from using Azrael or a RW master, by Ishagus standards of marine models, because the army has to be DA successor as the "real" DAs are a different colour. I don't think it is fun, or helps people like the game. I understand that there maybe people who are going to buy a full army of marines and paint them 4th BA company, and then make another army with exact units, and paint it 3ed company . Kudos to them, and their income, but people should not be punished because of a fringe part of the hobby or because GW wants to sell people over costed paints.

Plus why don't the rule effect other armies. I haven't see people whine how they have to repaint all their stealers to be Kraken, or scour the internet 2ed hand market to get real catachans or worse tallarans.

 skchsan wrote:
Or... you can just stop bandwagoning and be loyal to the army that made you fall into the game.

I still rock my DA army despite being one of the bottom tier armies. I just choose my fights wisely.

::Laughes in Grey Knight::

 skchsan wrote:
Or... you can just stop bandwagoning and be loyal to the army that made you fall into the game.

I still rock my DA army despite being one of the bottom tier armies. I just choose my fights wisely.

Imperial Guard made me fall into the game. I have changed from using Catachans to using green-and-brown Cadians to using white-and-grey Cadians since I started playing [all these evolution instigated by "this looks better"]. I wouldn't say I'm disloyal to Imperial Guard.

More importantly, my Sisters of Battle are painted silver and white and red because I like that scheme, but I want to play the army the way the Bloody Rose trait lets me play, getting up in melee with them and having S8 Repentia and S4 A2 BSS, while the Argent Shroud trait literally does nothing.


I will always pick the rules that correspond to the way I want my army to play. I also don't see how it would be "disloyal army" to use the rules that synchronize with the way you want your army to play.

 skchsan wrote:
Or... you can just stop bandwagoning and be loyal to the army that made you fall into the game.

And if the army that made you fall into the game is not the one that the rules/fluff currently describe, what then?

I'll go back to my previous example: My friend built and painted a Tyranid nidzilla army in the Hydra scheme long before Hydra even had a name. Is he 'bandwagoning' if he doesn't want to use their current rules, which do literally nothing for his army, being geared towards swarms?

Really a shame that 'Your Guys' apparently no longer means that you can paint your army how you like, and then play it with the rules that fit the playstyle you like most.

 Ishagu wrote:
Or you actually paint a chapter you like instead of just chasing rules?

If you only care about the rules you will get burned eventually. Power rises and falls often in 40k.

I'm doing a custom Chapter and all my HQ stand-ins have appropriately represented equipment.

OR are you saying I can only use the OFFICIAL models for HQ units?

 Ishagu wrote:
I have recently become a lot more hardline in regards to WYSIWYG. Too many people are cutting corners to chase the meta and my sympathy has expired. Make no mistake, it's only ever done so people can use better rules.

I don't allow my opponent to use proxies. Also, if they have painted their models in the colour of a popular, established chapter they shouldn't be playing them as anything else. Custom Chapters are an exception of course, they could be anything. But if your army is very much an Ultramarine force right down to unit markings they shouldn't be using the rules of Raven Guard/Iron Hands, etc

Weapon and model proxies are a definite no. High quality conversions can be ok on a case by case basis, some can be truly amazing and enrich the experience.

You want to have the best stuff? That's perfectly fine. Go out, buy it, and paint it accordingly.

What if I love...Kroot models, let's say, but hate their playstyle and feel like the Drukhari rules fit them best?
So I build my army converted, or painted to show differences as needed. Units are distinct and well marked.
Is there an issue with this?

Apologies for my poorly timed conjecture. It was meant to deride the people who were cherry picking multiple "best in slot" CT's for their singularly painted army.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Or you actually paint a chapter you like instead of just chasing rules?

If you only care about the rules you will get burned eventually. Power rises and falls often in 40k.

I'm doing a custom Chapter and all my HQ stand-ins have appropriately represented equipment.

OR are you saying I can only use the OFFICIAL models for HQ units?

What if your 100% legal primaris WS army, with full legal pain scheem, scenic based, no old marines, has 6 veteran intercessors sgts, with Thunder Hammers from Kromlech In the trash it goes?

I still say it's modeling for advantage. Because I can't easily identify them as what they are. I will in my myriad of calculations I am trying to do during a game, somehow forget those aren't kroot, but Drukari. Or vice versa. Also, there are significant modeling differences, between say a Space Marine and a Guardsman. It could affect LOS, # of troops able to fit into terrain, etc.

It's better to just play with what you are playing with, or just don't call it 40k. Call it my personal space war hobby game. Because it's not 40k.

Karol wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Or you actually paint a chapter you like instead of just chasing rules?

If you only care about the rules you will get burned eventually. Power rises and falls often in 40k.

I'm doing a custom Chapter and all my HQ stand-ins have appropriately represented equipment.

OR are you saying I can only use the OFFICIAL models for HQ units?

What if your 100% legal primaris WS army, with full legal pain scheem, scenic based, no old marines, has 6 veteran intercessors sgts, with Thunder Hammers from Kromlech In the trash it goes?

Oh don't be such a BCB. If anything just the 6 veteran intercessors need to go in the trash

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I still say it's modeling for advantage. Because I can't easily identify them as what they are. I will in my myriad of calculations I am trying to do during a game, somehow forget those aren't kroot, but Drukari. Or vice versa. Also, there are significant modeling differences, between say a Space Marine and a Guardsman. It could affect LOS, # of troops able to fit into terrain, etc.

It's better to just play with what you are playing with, or just don't call it 40k. Call it my personal space war hobby game. Because it's not 40k.

Removed - BrookM

 Blndmage wrote:


What if I love...Kroot models, let's say, but hate their playstyle and feel like the Drukhari rules fit them best?
So I build my army converted, or painted to show differences as needed. Units are distinct and well marked.
Is there an issue with this?

If your army is a quality conversion with models that represent the rules you're using effectively, it can be considered on a case by case basis.

Your army could just as easily be a rubbish set of proxies. 40k is a visual game.