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Not Online!!! wrote:

Consider the fact that it is their official stance for their gt 's etc.
I feel like your argument is moot.

Also my gw store ain't existing because they never bothered to build one in switzerland

It's their official stance for their own large organized events, but not for small scale local tournaments or pick up games in the stores.




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Not Online!!! wrote:
Leave me alone, am allready fed up with marines and we just have 2 out....

Well, I just lost with my salamanders yesterday to a Custodes army. Granted, his mvps were 2 squads of salamander Centurion devastators, but technically he still had more points in his Custodes part of the army

All depends on your opponent I guess.
Last night I played a guy with thousand sons and alpha legion, which was a mixed bag with unpainted cultists, half painted rubrics, I think black legion old style havocs, and old black legion tusked terminators masquerading as scarab occult terminators.
I mostly just rolled my eyes except for when he said he likes scarab occult terminators and, with a wink and a grin suggested he buy some!

 slave.entity wrote:
Do you what you gotta do to have fun

Amen.

@TC

Are you a fake Ultramarines fan?

Marine players have had special snowflake rules for like 3 editions now. You telling me you guys haven't caught on to painting your chapter in a custom scheme yet? Really?

No, but IMHO it makes you look like a powergaming min/maxing player (not TFG, but the sort of person who cares more about game than fluff). Especially if they are actually done up like Ultramarines or whatever with those symbols, and you're just using IH rules if they're better. Making your own chapter using IH rules that just happens to be blue isn' an issue.

It's been an age-old debate whether rules represent actual rules, like ingrained rules, or just combat doctrines that anyone can use but for game purposes only X gets it. And over the editions and years it's varied based on how the rules are presented. Take the Ultramarine doctrines for example; these are pretty generic, there's no reason why it's an Ultramarine only thing outside of the game.

I'm not sure about Iron Hands, but it's the same argument.

Just so we're clear here, you are advocating a form of modeling for advantage. Playing an army that is painted and decalled a certain way, and claiming they are something completely different is confusing for opponents and results in an advantage.

That being said, I'm better Black Templars and Salamanders will be NUTS.

As an opponent I wouldn't care. they can be full on ultramarines blue with markings and heraldry and you say "its all iron hands" and I am fine...

The catch here is that is you come at me with all ultramarines and "this spearhead is Salamanders, This batallion is iron hands, and this supreme command is blood angels" while they all look like the same models... nope.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Just so we're clear here, you are advocating a form of modeling for advantage. Playing an army that is painted and decalled a certain way, and claiming they are something completely different is confusing for opponents and results in an advantage.

That being said, I'm better Black Templars and Salamanders will be NUTS.

Thats not even close to what modeling for advantage is.

How many ultramarines have you painted? Re-prime black time?

Sterling191 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Just so we're clear here, you are advocating a form of modeling for advantage. Playing an army that is painted and decalled a certain way, and claiming they are something completely different is confusing for opponents and results in an advantage.

That being said, I'm better Black Templars and Salamanders will be NUTS.

Thats not even close to what modeling for advantage is.

Modeling for advantage is the wrong word, but the principle is the same. There just doesn't happen to be a phrase for "Using an army painted like one army as another simply because the rules are better"

I don't get it, why would you feel bad about using your army?
Previously you could paint whatever you wanted your army to be, but nowadays it seems that it has to match GW's schemes exactly, lest there be problems. Its one of the problems with soup, really, and why this all-or-nothing Doctrine system is a step in the right direction.

As long as you are consistent and make it clear what is what, I don't see what the problem is.

I see no problem as long as the OP is using Iron Hands successor chapter tactic, i.e. Inheritors of the Primarch successor tactic.
That, or claiming to be a successor of Iron Hands after picking two options from Successor Chapter Tactics.

I believe the issue is whether or not you can use the much vaunted Iron Father Feirros as Iron Hands successor chapter.
From what I know, only "original" Iron Hands can use special characters.

But then again there is this undying conundrum which many posters have pointed out: does the actual paint scheme matter rules-wise?
My gut feeling is that you cannot use Feirros unless you have painted your models according to Iron Hands scheme, but ultimately it depends on how your friends think.

As for tournaments, I have no clue.

Wayniac wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Just so we're clear here, you are advocating a form of modeling for advantage. Playing an army that is painted and decalled a certain way, and claiming they are something completely different is confusing for opponents and results in an advantage.

That being said, I'm better Black Templars and Salamanders will be NUTS.

Thats not even close to what modeling for advantage is.

Modeling for advantage is the wrong word, but the principle is the same. There just doesn't happen to be a phrase for "Using an army painted like one army as another simply because the rules are better"

The principle isn't the same as the person is still using marine models with marine weapons and marine stats. More or less nothing changes except some sub-faction rule that should have been sub-faction-agnostic to begin with.

This obsession about the right color scheme is a bit Orkish I might add. If my friend - who plays Ultramarines - suddenly says that his army is running as White Scar my brain does not go into a mode where I am incapable of realizing that the army is not Ultramarines.


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But then again there is this undying conundrum which many posters have pointed out: does the actual paint scheme matter rules-wise?

If GW would go out and explicitly say that the color scheme has to match the faction you'll probably see a lot of people leaving the hobby. It is one thing for tournaments having their own explicit rules, but if GW would do this it would cause a conniption. It would probably end with GW giving out a tourney advice on not using sub-faction rules if they are not agnostic.

 Shadenuat wrote:
Marine player agonizing over power creep weeks after first power creep as their previous blue army already feels outdated is pretty funny.

Well, invul is good I guess, but would it really come into play against many D2 weapons? Say against Reapers you are already rolling 5+. And don't some vehicles like dreads already have it (or 2+)? And you are becoming vulnerable due to inability to fall back and shoot which is imo awesome Ultra ability.

2 damage weapons with -1 damage are 1damage weapons AND 6+ FNP to make your 3 damage weapons (which are 2 damage weapons now) into 1 damage weapons about 55% of the time.


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 Stevefamine wrote:
How many ultramarines have you painted? Re-prime black time?

About 5000 Paints ultras and I love the way it looks. I wouldn't even consdier it if the Ironhands rules wernt that much better for no reason. For example I played Ulthwe since forever - never played aloitoc or ynnari. Because Ulthwe isn't really bad in comparison. Ironhands make Ultras look like an index army.

There is a meme circling around the internet, where an Ultramarine crawls into a Ned Flanders' hedge and walks out as an Iron Hand, captioned "Ultramarine players right now".

Seems it's true, after all.

 Hawky wrote:
There is a meme circling around the internet, where an Ultramarine crawls into a Ned Flanders' hedge and walks out as an Iron Hand, captioned "Ultramarine players right now".

Seems it's true, after all.

Not only is it true, but it shows how the game has gotten now. People don't pick an army because they like the colors/fluff/etc. its all about how good it is, and then swap to the next big thing with as little work as possible if it comes to it.

Wayniac wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
There is a meme circling around the internet, where an Ultramarine crawls into a Ned Flanders' hedge and walks out as an Iron Hand, captioned "Ultramarine players right now".

Seems it's true, after all.

Not only is it true, but it shows how the game has gotten now. People don't pick an army because they like the colors/fluff/etc. its all about how good it is, and then swap to the next big thing with as little work as possible if it comes to it.

Or, just hear me out, Stratagems and subfaction advantages have gotten so ridicoulus that it is basically a necessity now, to get a somewhat equal footting? (basically internal balanced is fethed to the point of no return.)

Not Online!!! wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
There is a meme circling around the internet, where an Ultramarine crawls into a Ned Flanders' hedge and walks out as an Iron Hand, captioned "Ultramarine players right now".

Seems it's true, after all.

Not only is it true, but it shows how the game has gotten now. People don't pick an army because they like the colors/fluff/etc. its all about how good it is, and then swap to the next big thing with as little work as possible if it comes to it.

Or, just hear me out, Stratagems and subfaction advantages have gotten so ridicoulus that it is basically a necessity now, to get a somewhat equal footting? (basically internal balanced is fethed to the point of no return.)

Sadly that's also true

My ultramarines are getting a repaint to a generic paint job so they can change around to different chapters.

Wayniac wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
There is a meme circling around the internet, where an Ultramarine crawls into a Ned Flanders' hedge and walks out as an Iron Hand, captioned "Ultramarine players right now".

Seems it's true, after all.

Not only is it true, but it shows how the game has gotten now. People don't pick an army because they like the colors/fluff/etc. its all about how good it is, and then swap to the next big thing with as little work as possible if it comes to it.

Or, just hear me out, Stratagems and subfaction advantages have gotten so ridicoulus that it is basically a necessity now, to get a somewhat equal footting? (basically internal balanced is fethed to the point of no return.)

Sadly that's also true

I'll do you one better, your army changes to your loyalist counterpart or GSC because it literally is no more fun for your opponent because your army literally became the laughing stock of 40k.

It's not just the powerchacers that change up rulesets. it's also those that get rulesets so abmissal that you would need to implement a 25% handicap to get an even match.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
There is a meme circling around the internet, where an Ultramarine crawls into a Ned Flanders' hedge and walks out as an Iron Hand, captioned "Ultramarine players right now".

Seems it's true, after all.

Not only is it true, but it shows how the game has gotten now. People don't pick an army because they like the colors/fluff/etc. its all about how good it is, and then swap to the next big thing with as little work as possible if it comes to it.

Or, just hear me out, Stratagems and subfaction advantages have gotten so ridicoulus that it is basically a necessity now, to get a somewhat equal footting? (basically internal balanced is fethed to the point of no return.)

Exactly this.

It's the recent co-factors that are causing issue as a lot of people picked their army and color scheme a long time ago.

Wayniac wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
There is a meme circling around the internet, where an Ultramarine crawls into a Ned Flanders' hedge and walks out as an Iron Hand, captioned "Ultramarine players right now".

Seems it's true, after all.

Not only is it true, but it shows how the game has gotten now. People don't pick an army because they like the colors/fluff/etc. its all about how good it is, and then swap to the next big thing with as little work as possible if it comes to it.

Dude - I like Ultramarines. Iron hands I think are really dumb. We have the Admech now. We don't need machiney marines. It's also really dumb that a tech marine from other chapters sucks compared to an ironhands one for literally no reason. They are both robotic forge masters dedicated to the machine spirit...Tired of all this snowflake marine BS. Marines are marines. It's not like Ultramarine techmarines are slowed at fixing their vehicals...

It wouldn't be this way if the rules werent so Unbalanced. Game has gotten out of hand with all these free rules.

If you're painted like an Ultramarine and you're chapter symbol is Ultramarine's... You're an Ultramarine.

Disregarding the established themes with the sole intent of chasing the best rules makes you 'that guy'. There; I finally said it.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
There is a meme circling around the internet, where an Ultramarine crawls into a Ned Flanders' hedge and walks out as an Iron Hand, captioned "Ultramarine players right now".

Seems it's true, after all.

Not only is it true, but it shows how the game has gotten now. People don't pick an army because they like the colors/fluff/etc. its all about how good it is, and then swap to the next big thing with as little work as possible if it comes to it.

Dude - I like Ultramarines. Iron hands I think are really dumb. We have the Admech now. We don't need machiney marines. It's also really dumb that a tech marine from other chapters sucks compared to an ironhands one for literally no reason. They are both robotic forge masters dedicated to the machine spirit...Tired of all this snowflake marine BS. Marines are marines. It's not like Ultramarine techmarines are slowed at fixing their vehicals...

It wouldn't be this way if the rules werent so Unbalanced. Game has gotten out of hand with all these free rules.

What do you think Warpsmiths feel like.

 oni wrote:
If you're painted like an Ultramarine and you're chapter symbol is Ultramarine's... You're an Ultramarine.

Disregarding the established themes with the sole intent of chasing the best rules makes you 'that guy'. There; I finally said it.

I would not quite go that far, but... yeah. Sadly, since it's not the player's fault in most cases.

 oni wrote:
If you're painted like an Ultramarine and you're chapter symbol is Ultramarine's... You're an Ultramarine.

Disregarding the established themes with the sole intent of chasing the best rules makes you 'that guy'. There; I finally said it.

So it makes me that guy?

For switching away from R&H and using GSC / IG rules?
mighty high talk.

It makes someone that guy for using the base Codex to represent an actual Melee focused marine factions instead of BA)

Got it.

See there's something called "relative" and "context". But all are that guy that do it.

Be carefull with general statements, it might make you instead into a TFG.

The subfaction rules have gotten out of hand. They are just making them more and more impactful, and they mattered too much already. And of course some end up much better than others, to the degree that they have a serious impact even in a casual setting.

Things that do not cost points are an utter hell to balance, if it turns out some weapon is much better than other options, you can always bump the points in the CA. You can't do that with the free stuff, and with so many options making them all equally good is probably just humanly impossible.

I really wish we could go back to the time when subfactions were just fluff and paint. If some bespoke rules absolutely must exist, then they would be really low-impact things that do not affect the balance significantly.

Trust me also - If I was picking an marine army for being OP. I would have picked space wolves a long time ago. Or 7th eddition white scars.

Ultras have always been a weaker chapter - only at the end of 7th did they become above average. The power spread has never been this bad though. In fact marines have always been a really bad army. Except for late 7th eddition.


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 Crimson wrote:
The subfaction rules have gotten out of hand. They are just making them more and more impactful, and they mattered too much already. And of course some end up much better than others, to the degree that they have a serious impact even in a casual setting.

Things that do not cost points are an utter hell to balance, if it turns out some weapon is much better than other options, you can always bump the points in the CA. You can't do that with the free stuff, and with so many options making them all equally good is probably just humanly impossible.

I really wish we could go back to the time when subfactions were just fluff and paint. If some bespoke rules absolutely must exist, then they would be really low-impact things that do not affect the balance significantly.

Agreed

As long as you were clear and consistent (My army is painted as Ultras across the board, but I'm using the IH rules across the board), I really couldn't care less what sub-faction you "played as". I'm not going to insist you spend an hour playing with a strictly inferior list because GW rules writers can't do their jobs properly.