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 Crimson wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

Unfortunately the supplements say if your successor chapter is established in the background of one of GW publications then you have to use that founding chapters supplement.

Fluff determines rules here.

Which is absurd. In the new codex Mentors are listed as unknown. It is completely unreasonable to assume that players would have to search for references in some obscure BL novels to find out their their origin.

I agree, mind you IMHO those rules only really matter if the chapter has a special character (so no running a novamarine army with the novamarine character and claiming they're Iron Hands sucessors) otherwise you're just penalizing paint job. and enchouraging custom chapters "with mysterious orgins!" which frankly is waaaaaaaaaaaay over done. In this case I mostly pointed it out because it might be pointed out locally, and if he's got a local TFG who would call it and has read all the rules, best to be perpared.

Are the space marine codex mentors the same mentors from spear of the emperor?

Karol wrote:
Are the space marine codex mentors the same mentors from spear of the emperor?

yes they are.

 ewar wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

About 5000 Paints ultras and I love the way it looks. I wouldn't even consdier it if the Ironhands rules wernt that much better for no reason. For example I played Ulthwe since forever - never played aloitoc or ynnari. Because Ulthwe isn't really bad in comparison. Ironhands make Ultras look like an index army.

We're just going to gloss over this gem? No takers? Really?

This made me chortle, sir. I thought the exact same. Why anyone even answers this guy's posts about space marines any longer, I honestly don't know. His hysteria is beyond even the ludicrous norms of the interwebs.

I don't know how you don't get banned for talking such trash...

At least make an argument of some kind like..."you crazy man" "Ironhands aren't OP compared to other chapters" You'd be wrong - but at least contributing to the discussion in some way. Also...you should get out more. Nothing I am saying is even close to ludicrous. Just look at ironhands getting all the auras/best tactic/ super doctrine applies turn 1 and is basically a repeat of the ultramarines tactic with a small difference in bonus rule of reroll 1's instead of "counts as stationary".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

About 5000 Paints ultras and I love the way it looks. I wouldn't even consdier it if the Ironhands rules wernt that much better for no reason. For example I played Ulthwe since forever - never played aloitoc or ynnari. Because Ulthwe isn't really bad in comparison. Ironhands make Ultras look like an index army.

We're just going to gloss over this gem? No takers? Really?

Please elaborate.

I believe he is saying that comparing 6+++ to a blanket -1 to hit army wide for the Eldar is ironic considering your outcry about comparing IH to ultras and arguing to no end how IH are hands down better than everything else.. If irony was made of strawberries we'd be all having some delicious smoothies right about now.


I will go out on a limb, and say what you actually mean is that you will be playing your 3 executioners you have been complaining about being too expensive with the iron father and spamming all the buffs + CP on those 3 models while the rest of your army dies. 2+BS, 2+ 5++, 5+++ etc. Remmeber how bitter and hyperbolic you were about new SM being trash tier because repulsors were overcosted by 20 points because Guilliman "nerf" ?

At least this shows the clear imbalance issue more than ever before. Its bananas.. An IH executioner is at least +-100 points better than a vanilla executioner. I went there and it looks to be true.
Having supplements without assorted points changes is so stupid... Don't even get me started on IH psychic powers working for vehicles according to RAW afaik from previews.

And I'm salty about the psychic power most of all because apparently my warlock can "conceal" a horde of 10 jetbikes shrieking towards the enemy at full tilt, but it cannot conceal this single wraith lord that's standing still...

6+++ is a lot better now with reroll all hits auras being all over the place. -1 to hit at 12" has become pretty weak.

Orks have more dakka (don't care)
CSM and marines and admech don't care
Custodians don't care because they all hit on 2's.
and anyone that -1 to hit is a real probably them can just close the gap or deep strike charge.

Space marines have straight up made minus to hit spam close to useless when you compare the investment. Not to mention the amount of anti air firepower a marine army is going to have with a ton of builds. With ironhands as strong as they are you can expect to see them in droves.

6+++ has becomes the best army trait to use if you have access to it. It's always on - it protects against mortals even.

When you also get additional bonus to this already great army trait I gotta call BS.

Iron hands get Tau sept/ Hawkshroud/ and Ulthwe army traits in one. Are we seriously to the point where point this out makes your statement Ludacris?

The executioner is probably overcosted by closer to 50 points too. It's just ironhands that make them actually worth those points. I wouldn't worry about the eldar man. If marines are this good you can expect a lot more out of the eldar.

 Xenomancers wrote:
6+++ is a lot better now with reroll all hits auras being all over the place. -1 to hit at 12" has become pretty weak.

Orks have more dakka (don't care)
CSM and marines and admech don't care
Custodians don't care because they all hit on 2's.
and anyone that -1 to hit is a real probably them can just close the gap or deep strike charge.

Space marines have straight up made minus to hit spam close to useless when you compare the investment. Not to mention the amount of anti air firepower a marine army is going to have with a ton of builds. With ironhands as strong as they are you can expect to see them in droves.

6+++ has becomes the best army trait to use if you have access to it. It's always on - it protects against mortals even.

When you also get additional bonus to this already great army trait I gotta call BS.

Iron hands get Tau sept/ Hawkshroud/ and Ulthwe army traits in one. Are we seriously to the point where point this out makes your statement Ludacris?

The executioner is probably overcosted by closer to 50 points too. It's just ironhands that make them actually worth those points. I wouldn't worry about the eldar man. If marines are this good you can expect a lot more out of the eldar.

*sigh*

Except it is never just -1 is it ?

Fliers alone are -2 base with LFR you can make one -3
Rangers are -2 base with alitoic
Serpents with vectored engines, if advance is -2..

Infantry & bikes you can give conceal (warp spiders/shadow specters are -2 base with alitoic) so you can have a blob with 3++ and -3. Your BS2+ in reality is hitting on 4s /5s

So minus to hit modifiers all around. Obviously if you don't do any of those things and just want to play a weird backline gunline with tanks and stuff sure but then just take spirit stones to have 6+++ AND a -1 to hit...
Also, not every army rocks a guilman with all reroll everything so those modifiers really count...

If you honestly think ulthwe is anywhere near as good as alitoic then I just don't know what to say..
If you read the book you'd see that the serpents/vehicles can get spirit stones and have a 6++ ANYWAY. So your army 6++ is just useless btw, Hemlock comes with it as stock. So you could just pay 10 points to have the ulthwe trait.. Ya know.. ? lol

Having been playing exclusively eldar and trying out different traits I can honestly say ulthwe does not come anywhere near close... It just doesn't.. With the amount of ROF weaponry you wont be rolling enough 6s for that to be worth while on your T3 chaff..

On wraiths though? Sure ulthwe is better as they will either be in CC or have 12" guns anyway. But is it worth to gimp your entire army? nah...

It's not terrible I suppose. With reroll all hits on 5's you are looking at 55% hits - where with the old space marine aura you were looking at about 42%. The big factor here being is a good portion of attempts where you can't reroll 3's or 4's on a -2. Resulted in a lot of attempts with very few hits. We aren't talking about very durable units otherwise ether. -1 is REALLY weak vs reroll all hits too. 75% hits is still really good.
6+FNP is a straight up undeniable 16% or 20% damage reduction depending how you look at it. Against a -1 with 6+FNP vs a -2 to hit. The damage is about the same against reroll all hits. 75% hit vs 55% hit and ignore 16% of damage. That is about the best case for minus to hits too. A -1 compared to 6+ FNP is 89% vs 75% - FNP actually wins here and it wins big big under 12" too and vs mortals and in CC. It's really hard to make a case that -1 to hit is better than 6+FNP with the prevalence of reroll all hits. It's even worse with bs2 units with rerolls which there are tons of them.

There really aren't a lot of meta units that hit on 4's normally - not anymore. -1 to hit is great against them but you just don't see them as a result so much. Not to mention the plethora or weapons that give you +1 to hit flyers (which most -2 to hits are coming from) and auto hitting weapons.

Ok... ok.... ok...Lets try this again.

Have you not been complaining to no end how DMG 2+ weaponry is everywhere and that it kills marines easily and they are trash tier because of it?

So... would you rather have to roll a double 6 to stop two wounds... or have a modifier to make the shot miss in the first place? Whats the point of having ulthwe on my 1W and 2W Bikers if they will all die to dmg 2/D3 weapons?

Short answer: if your opponent is happy with you using ultraironhands then why not.

Longer answer: if you have 5k painted ultramarines, love the look of them and the background as you say, then I have to question why you don't have more pride in your choice of army. If all you care about it the best & easiest wins which is the driving force for your change, then you have to acknowledge that will annoy some people. Be prepared to, rightfully, be branded as a power gaming meta chaser.

 Xenomancers wrote:
6+++ is a lot better now with reroll all hits auras being all over the place. -1 to hit at 12" has become pretty weak.

Orks have more dakka (don't care)
CSM and marines and admech don't care
Custodians don't care because they all hit on 2's.
and anyone that -1 to hit is a real probably them can just close the gap or deep strike charge.

Space marines have straight up made minus to hit spam close to useless when you compare the investment. Not to mention the amount of anti air firepower a marine army is going to have with a ton of builds. With ironhands as strong as they are you can expect to see them in droves.

6+++ has becomes the best army trait to use if you have access to it. It's always on - it protects against mortals even.

When you also get additional bonus to this already great army trait I gotta call BS.

Iron hands get Tau sept/ Hawkshroud/ and Ulthwe army traits in one. Are we seriously to the point where point this out makes your statement Ludacris?

The executioner is probably overcosted by closer to 50 points too. It's just ironhands that make them actually worth those points. I wouldn't worry about the eldar man. If marines are this good you can expect a lot more out of the eldar.

as an ork player I would argue a -1 to hit affects us more than any other army and is not in the "don't care" category. outside of our mek guns most everything else of value shooting literally has their % to hit cut in half. with the change on hit to have another 1/6 chance to hit. so many people seem to think dakka dakka dakka is some magical fix to ork shooting making it reliably good. essentially 8th edition broke ork shooting and dakka dakka dakka was the bandaid to make it not literally useless. Don't get me started on pre codex BS we put up with where... "oh you have an altioc flyer or other -2 to hit... guess i just exist on the table with you while you destroy me with impunity as i cannot shoot you and all your flying units outpace my overcosted units". dakka dakka dakka just makes it literally so we have a chance to hit from these -2 to hit, but -1 to hit still makes us. even BS4+ models only suffer 1/3 loss of chance to hit vs -1 to hit.

Xenomancers wrote:

 ewar wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

About 5000 Paints ultras and I love the way it looks. I wouldn't even consdier it if the Ironhands rules wernt that much better for no reason. For example I played Ulthwe since forever - never played aloitoc or ynnari. Because Ulthwe isn't really bad in comparison. Ironhands make Ultras look like an index army.

We're just going to gloss over this gem? No takers? Really?

This made me chortle, sir. I thought the exact same. Why anyone even answers this guy's posts about space marines any longer, I honestly don't know. His hysteria is beyond even the ludicrous norms of the interwebs.

I don't know how you don't get banned for talking such trash...

At least make an argument of some kind like..."you crazy man" "Ironhands aren't OP compared to other chapters" You'd be wrong - but at least contributing to the discussion in some way. Also...you should get out more. Nothing I am saying is even close to ludicrous. Just look at ironhands getting all the auras/best tactic/ super doctrine applies turn 1 and is basically a repeat of the ultramarines tactic with a small difference in bonus rule of reroll 1's instead of "counts as stationary".

OK, I'll bite. Here is a few reasons why:
- you don't learn, as evidenced by the frankly embarassing mess you got in over SM2.0 rumours
- you don't listen to counter argument, therefore any effort made by other posts is wasted on you
- calling you out on this, is apparently a bannable offence? 'Get out more'!? The only thing you forgot to say was your dad could beat up my dad.

If you do genuinely wish to broaden your horizons, I would recommend watching the D6 Evolution video review of both new supplements - I think there is a compelling argument that RG will be the better overall book once you factor in ACTUAL PLAYING.

Dudeface wrote:Short answer: if your opponent is happy with you using ultraironhands then why not.

Longer answer: if you have 5k painted ultramarines, love the look of them and the background as you say, then I have to question why you don't have more pride in your choice of army. If all you care about it the best & easiest wins which is the driving force for your change, then you have to acknowledge that will annoy some people. Be prepared to, rightfully, be branded as a power gaming meta chaser.

Couldn't agree with this more.

For the original question - I wouldn't be that upset but would probably mock you for it. Same with any "its clearly painted as X, but I'm running it as Y".

On the -1/FNP debate,

I agree that changes to rerolls make -1s to hit less valuable. I am however suspect that the 6+++ is that amazing. I am also not convinced you can just say "right, army wide reroll everything all the time, go". Or at least not without having a very tightly packed in castle, which brings its own problems.

As I see it Ironhands could be a gatekeeper list, but if you can kill knights, you are going to kill buffed up executioners. If you can frustrating a castle, you can probably frustrate this one.

 ewar wrote:


OK, I'll bite. Here is a few reasons why:
- you don't learn, as evidenced by the frankly embarassing mess you got in over SM2.0 rumours
- you don't listen to counter argument, therefore any effort made by other posts is wasted on you
- calling you out on this, is apparently a bannable offence? 'Get out more'!? The only thing you forgot to say was your dad could beat up my dad.

If you do genuinely wish to broaden your horizons, I would recommend watching the D6 Evolution video review of both new supplements - I think there is a compelling argument that RG will be the better overall book once you factor in ACTUAL PLAYING.

All of this. The gak the beakies can pull is far and away superior to the cybork parking lot of rawritude.

 Argive wrote:
Ok... ok.... ok...Lets try this again.

Have you not been complaining to no end how DMG 2+ weaponry is everywhere and that it kills marines easily and they are trash tier because of it?

So... would you rather have to roll a double 6 to stop two wounds... or have a modifier to make the shot miss in the first place? Whats the point of having ulthwe on my 1W and 2W Bikers if they will all die to dmg 2/D3 weapons?

Every army spams 2 damage weaponry. It just means the 2 wound stat isn't worth as much. This isn't exclusively a marine problem. 3+ armor not having much value is a marine problem though. The solution to this problem is not an ironhands only aura for 5++ and -1 damage....

 Xenomancers wrote:
The solution to this problem is not an ironhands only aura for 5++ and -1 damage....

Considering the Ironstone doesnt work on infantry, and the 5++ is the equivalent of getting plonked by a disintigrator/plasma in cover, it's not a solution at all.

Running your Ultramarines as Iron Hands won't make your negative view of everything marine-related go away.

So my guess is yes, you will feel bad when using blue iron hands, but not because of the paint scheme.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The solution to this problem is not an ironhands only aura for 5++ and -1 damage....

Considering the Ironstone doesnt work on infantry, and the 5++ is the equivalent of getting plonked by a disintigrator/plasma in cover, it's not a solution at all.

Marines can't always be in cover. Space marine armies have to advance vs most opponents. Don't be niave ether. You know marines vs marines is going to be a common matchup and marines have AP out the wazzoo now. Who wins that firefight?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Marines can't always be in cover.

Oh yes they can.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Space marine armies have to advance vs most opponents.

They really dont.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Don't be niave ether. You know marines vs marines is going to be a common matchup and marines have AP out the wazzoo now. Who wins that firefight?

The better player. Same as it always has been.

But nice job glossing over how incorrectly you're interpreting the Iron Hands rules. Again. For the I-dont-know-how-manyeth-time.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The solution to this problem is not an ironhands only aura for 5++ and -1 damage....

Considering the Ironstone doesnt work on infantry, and the 5++ is the equivalent of getting plonked by a disintigrator/plasma in cover, it's not a solution at all.

Marines can't always be in cover.

I heard there was an entire chapter that could be always considered in cover as long as they don't come too close though, they must be broken op compared to a new choice for a 5++ aura.

dhallnet wrote:

I heard there was an entire chapter that could be always considered in cover as long as they don't come too close though, they must be broken op compared to a new choice for a 5++ aura.

It's ok, they only get overwatch on a 6+ so they're brokenly underpowered.

Dandelion wrote:
Seriously, for non-Tau players, what color is Daly'th* without looking it up?

Spoiler:

Actually, it's Dal'yth but I bet you didn't notice because I didn't at first
also I actually don't know the color scheme because it's not in the codex and I can't find it anywhere

Is Dal'yth the light blue?

EDIT: Nope, they're green according to google images though may also be white. In short, I have no idea

At the end of the day, they are your plastic little space men and you can run them however you want, although it does seem to go against the spirit of the game.

Your complaints are quite hyperbolic, Ultras seem to be in a pretty decent spot. They might not be at the level of IHs, but to suggest that UM are unusable does them quite the disservice.

It seems you've already made up your mind about this, I'm not sure why you went through the effort of making this post.

Just call them the Emperor's Blue Shoes.

Nurglitch wrote:
Just call them the Emperor's Blue Shoes.

I need to see how IH play on the table before coming to a firm conclusion, though I don't doubt they will be good. My main thoughts are:

* their alpha strike will be very strong
* their resilience is going to be overstated. They will still suffer against knights, as no matter how good a repulsor castle is, it is outranged and outgunned by a knight list. Any army should bring enough ranged threat to hurt or kill a knight in one round - if they can do that a 16w tank is not going to be a problem
* Although it is an advantage having their doctrine effective in turn 1, it also means they will get almost zero benefit from the tactical or assault doctrines. More rounded forces will see a broader spread of gains. UM for instance benefit from sitting fairly still turn 1 at range, before switching up to Tactical and going on the move for objectives. Also, UM can bring an extreme volume of AP-1 shots, which will tell in the mid to late game if played sensibly
* heavy weapons are good, but they are also concentrated in few models, especially a tank castle. Losing some of these early is a huge hindrance (and why IMO tank gunlines haven't been successful in 8th yet as well I might add)
* IH will lack board control, their armies will be small and hard hitting. Hordes or anything which can screen with early pressure is going to win the VP game.

So yeah, I think they'll be really, really good. But to the point where they're wiping the floor with everyone else? I don't see it. Other armies have enough brutal combos to hold their own. Just think of Aberrant bombs, smite spam 1ksons and so on. Also, getting 1st turn is going to be more critical to IH, when they are so heavily invested in the alpha strike game.

Just my random thoughts on the subject. As always, I will withhold judgement until I've actually played against them (more than once!).

Yeah, the UM "Tactical Doctrine count as not moving when shooting" is just crazy, crazy good. I'll take that over a 6+++ all day evey day and then some.

I feel like some marine players often have this innate fear over losing units, and gravitate towards resiliency bonuses. But rarely does that work out, imo.

Sterling191 wrote:

dhallnet wrote:

I heard there was an entire chapter that could be always considered in cover as long as they don't come too close though, they must be broken op compared to a new choice for a 5++ aura.

It's ok, they only get overwatch on a 6+ so they're brokenly underpowered.

or have a 6+++ and count as double wounds for degradation. Funny how you have to omit rules to make what you are saying sound reasonable.


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 Insectum7 wrote:
Yeah, the UM "Tactical Doctrine count as not moving when shooting" is just crazy, crazy good. I'll take that over a 6+++ all day evey day and then some.

I feel like some marine players often have this innate fear over losing units, and gravitate towards resiliency bonuses. But rarely does that work out, imo.

You do realize that you aren't taking it over a 6+++.
You are taking it over a 6+++ overwatch on 5's and count as double wounds for degradation and turn 1 bonus to ignore heavy weapons penalties and reroll 1's. Just so you can fall back and shoot with some tanks at a -1 and have a useless leadship bonus and shoot better with some bolter weapons...AKA useless. Heavy weapons starting turn 1 is a way better ability. Not only because it's turn 1. The heavy weapons are more deadly.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Ok... ok.... ok...Lets try this again.

Have you not been complaining to no end how DMG 2+ weaponry is everywhere and that it kills marines easily and they are trash tier because of it?

So... would you rather have to roll a double 6 to stop two wounds... or have a modifier to make the shot miss in the first place? Whats the point of having ulthwe on my 1W and 2W Bikers if they will all die to dmg 2/D3 weapons?

Every army spams 2 damage weaponry. It just means the 2 wound stat isn't worth as much. This isn't exclusively a marine problem. 3+ armor not having much value is a marine problem though. The solution to this problem is not an ironhands only aura for 5++ and -1 damage....

So just competely dodge the argument... then eh? My point remains... FNP is uselss on 1W infantry or tanks when you up against dmg 2+ weapons if a minus hit modifier is on the table.. FNP sounds good but for the eldar outside of a wraith knight/ wraith guard? Nah...

 Insectum7 wrote:

I feel like some marine players often have this innate fear over losing units, and gravitate towards resiliency bonuses. But rarely does that work out, imo.

I think there is a lot of truth in this statement. I have played some form of every major group (and most factions) in Kill Team for at this point. Strangely enough, I play far more conservatively when playing some sort of power armor with the exception of not-TS/DG Chaos Space Marines. I tend to reserve my CP for things that keep my marines alive rather than increasing their killing potential save re-rolling Injury Rolls. I am not alone in this regard in my group either.

I think it is easy enough to point out that the loss of a primaris marine or other well equipped marine unit is a significant portion of a team/army. I suppose it feels more immediate compared to losing 3 or 4 genestealer cult, guard, ork etc. units. Which might explain some of it. I also think that marine players might naturally be inclined to want a tougher army since that is something that power armor is supposed to give. With dice being dice and some of the weapons out there, it sometimes doesn't feel like marines are all that tough so players might activate seek more ways to increase their resiliency.

I do see in play marine players (including myself) waiting for a break in the enemy lines before committing. Since they aren't pouring that much into firepower the break doesn't sometimes happen and they marines are picked apart to fail to catch up in an objective game.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

dhallnet wrote:

I heard there was an entire chapter that could be always considered in cover as long as they don't come too close though, they must be broken op compared to a new choice for a 5++ aura.

It's ok, they only get overwatch on a 6+ so they're brokenly underpowered.

or have a 6+++ and count as double wounds for degradation. Funny how you have to omit rules to make what you are saying sound reasonable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Yeah, the UM "Tactical Doctrine count as not moving when shooting" is just crazy, crazy good. I'll take that over a 6+++ all day evey day and then some.

I feel like some marine players often have this innate fear over losing units, and gravitate towards resiliency bonuses. But rarely does that work out, imo.

You do realize that you aren't taking it over a 6+++.
You are taking it over a 6+++ overwatch on 5's and count as double wounds for degradation and turn 1 bonus to ignore heavy weapons penalties and reroll 1's. Just so you can fall back and shoot with some tanks at a -1 and have a useless leadship bonus and shoot better with some bolter weapons...AKA useless. Heavy weapons starting turn 1 is a way better ability. Not only because it's turn 1. The heavy weapons are more deadly.

UM have a Strat that allows multiple units to fire overwatch, Tau style, so I feel covered on the overwatch front. Double wounds for degradation is pretty good, although I get Chronus who always shoots at BS2+ and ignores degradation, so that's good. UM have a Strat that allows me to assign a Doctrine to a unit, so if I really need AP-4 Plasma Devastators I can do that, too. +1 Ld is can be handy because big units take advantage of strats better, and we got some good ones.

Not being shut down by CC is priceless, imo.