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 Dysartes wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Just call them the Emperor's Blue Shoes.

Management would like to request that Knights and Titans refrain from stomping on the Emperor's Blue Shoes - getting the suede on the armour was a nightmare for Him.

 Xenomancers wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Iron Hands are going to, that being said, proably be OP on planet bowling ball. but in an enviroment with signfcigent terrain and cover, they'll certainly be less so.

This is irrelevant. The game is mostly played on planet bowling ball. I've played at LVO - I play lots of ITC events. Except for dumb rules like magic boxes there is nothing significant about it. To be honest a defensive powerhouse deathball benefits a lot from your entire army not being able to focus down 1 unit.

So what you're implying here is that the LVO (and other ITC events) aren't using enough terrain?

No thats not what I am saying. There is nothing wrong with the terrain situation they use - the special rule where 1st floor blocks LOS is probably too much (IMO it should be you cant shoot through buildings but you CAN shoot into them). Terrain should be varied from game to game IMO. Some should be an open feild - some should be city fights - some should be fought on moons with lots of craters and stuff. Suggesting every game should have lots of terrain is just someone who doesn't like playing a shooting game and should probably just play AOS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Maybe IH lists without ferrus and the stone that point on MSU and mobility will be quite strong, but parking lots? Lol, those are hardly going to be a concern.

Ding ding ding. Successors running mechanized lists with dreadnought and flyer support are where IH are going to shine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Listydy doo-da

Your inability to build a list that utilizes the Smurf super-doctrine is a statement on your list building skills, not the efficacy of said super-doctrine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
This is irrelevant. The game is mostly played on planet bowling ball.

Not even close to reality.

Its funny because I'm speaking of experience in actual ITC events like LVO. It is reality. Youll get a large LOS blocker in the middle of the table and a few in each deployment zone and probably 2 more. I'm just gonna shut up about it until evidence backs my points 100% like what usually happens. Like when I predict space marines were going to be one of the worst armies in 40k in 8th and it held true for over 2 years. LOL. Ironhands are going to be the only competitive choice based on numbers.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Its funny because I'm speaking of experience in actual ITC events like LVO. It is reality. Youll get a large LOS blocker in the middle of the table and a few in each deployment zone and probably 2 more. I'm just gonna shut up about it until evidence backs my points 100% like what usually happens. Like when I predict space marines were going to be one of the worst armies in 40k in 8th and it held true for over 2 years. LOL. Ironhands are going to be the only competitive choice based on numbers.

"Like what usually happens" is that you're proven wrong, and then proceed to launch immediately into another hysterical tirade about the next rule that catches your eye. I cannot wait for the Salamanders and Imperial Fists to drop so we can see you blow your stack about them too.

Also major ROFLcoptering at the notion that LVO represents anything other than LVO. But good on you for telling the entire planet that they're playing 40k wrong.

Spoletta wrote:
The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.

What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.

 Crimson wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.

What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.

That's half the problem.

Note, the other half is stricly dependent on playing the game by the standard rules, so in ITC YMMV.

The other half is that they cover one of the major weaknesses of the new SM quite well. To gain these huge bonuses SM have to give up the screens, which immediately makes them vulnerable to mortal wounds and assault units. Who cares about an IH parking lot when i can crash an helldrake on them from outside their threat range. But UM can retreat and shoot, are extremely powerful at short range in the second turn, can take the decision to go for the counter assault by moving into assault doctrine (all punches going to AP-1 hurts much more than you think) only to go back their favorite doctrine with a CP. Being good in the tactical doctrine gives you a lot of flexibility.

Sure, IH are good from turn 1, but is that really useful? Turn 1 is usually a movement turn with not many kills (again, not in ITC), especially when your list has a majority of range 24".

Add to this that UM are the ones who use best the aggressors, which are probably the most powerful unit in the SM arsenal.

UM can be countered by lists that are completely focused on shooting, and that's it. Any other list will see itself outplayed on all possible scenarios.


In short, while i can see possible ways to outplay White Scars RG and IH, for every scenario i can think against UM they always have a countermove. That's what i find scary.

I've said it before and I will say it again: Ultramarines have the massive advantage of outright removing a tool from the toolkit of opposing armies by being able to fall back and shoot (outside of having units be completely wrapped which is a whole other dimension of strategy and counter play).

Iron Hands you can still run into and hit thus locking them down. Now personally I'm going to be running dread heavy with melee so I'm not TOO terribly upset by that because they are still good in melee (not against hordes), but against razorback spam or what have you it's devilishly effective. However the point stands that you have the options to heavily handicap an Iron Hand parking lot's firepower by the classic tag it strategy. You outright don't have that most of the time versus Ultramarines and that's HUGE. Yes the Iron Hands have the advantage and raw firepower and durability (by far durability), but you can never, NEVER devalue the power of toolkit options which can very often surpass the overall effectiveness of raw power options.

I guess I kinda fail to see the awesomeness of Ultra fall back and shoot (with penalty) trick. There are many good shooty marine units with fly, so they don't need that. And Intercessors are pretty decent at melee, so I'm not super concerned for them having to fight instead of shooting. And of course IH's overwatch buff is a pretty decent deterrent against things charging you in the first place.

 Crimson wrote:
I guess I kinda fail to see the awesomeness of Ultra fall back and shoot (with penalty) trick. There are many good shooty marine units with fly, so they don't need that. And Intercessors are pretty decent at melee, so I'm not super concerned for them having to fight instead of shooting. And of course IH's overwatch buff is a pretty decent deterrent against things charging you in the first place.

The only unit they will need to keep out of CC is their levi dread and honestly if it gets to overwatch...very little wants to charge it anyways (ESP if you are rerolling all hits) + they have a stratagem to fall back and shoot with a single unit...

Nor do Iron hands not have to run screens. Intercessors are one of the best picks in the codex and they gain a ton from being itron hands too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.

What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.

That's half the problem.

Note, the other half is stricly dependent on playing the game by the standard rules, so in ITC YMMV.

The other half is that they cover one of the major weaknesses of the new SM quite well. To gain these huge bonuses SM have to give up the screens, which immediately makes them vulnerable to mortal wounds and assault units. Who cares about an IH parking lot when i can crash an helldrake on them from outside their threat range. But UM can retreat and shoot, are extremely powerful at short range in the second turn, can take the decision to go for the counter assault by moving into assault doctrine (all punches going to AP-1 hurts much more than you think) only to go back their favorite doctrine with a CP. Being good in the tactical doctrine gives you a lot of flexibility.

Sure, IH are good from turn 1, but is that really useful? Turn 1 is usually a movement turn with not many kills (again, not in ITC), especially when your list has a majority of range 24".

Add to this that UM are the ones who use best the aggressors, which are probably the most powerful unit in the SM arsenal.

UM can be countered by lists that are completely focused on shooting, and that's it. Any other list will see itself outplayed on all possible scenarios.


In short, while i can see possible ways to outplay White Scars RG and IH, for every scenario i can think against UM they always have a countermove. That's what i find scary.

Sorry but...units that require a setup turn aren't actually powerful because you have to compare them to units that don't need a setup turn. There is very little reason to take an aggressor over an assault centurion also. Guess what they gain from counts as stationary...oh yeah...nothing. Agressors would be a top choice if they could ride in an impulsor...they can't. Even as Ultras agressors will have to advance to get into range to shoot turn 1 (which means they can't shoot twice) so turn 2 at best. You could try spamming them. Str 4 spam isn't exactly stellar though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I've said it before and I will say it again: Ultramarines have the massive advantage of outright removing a tool from the toolkit of opposing armies by being able to fall back and shoot (outside of having units be completely wrapped which is a whole other dimension of strategy and counter play).

Iron Hands you can still run into and hit thus locking them down. Now personally I'm going to be running dread heavy with melee so I'm not TOO terribly upset by that because they are still good in melee (not against hordes), but against razorback spam or what have you it's devilishly effective. However the point stands that you have the options to heavily handicap an Iron Hand parking lot's firepower by the classic tag it strategy. You outright don't have that most of the time versus Ultramarines and that's HUGE. Yes the Iron Hands have the advantage and raw firepower and durability (by far durability), but you can never, NEVER devalue the power of toolkit options which can very often surpass the overall effectiveness of raw power options.

I mean I've been toying with taking a huge assault centurian unit - the Ultras stratagem lets them fall back and charge with no pentaly is very strong on them. Though - they aren't exactly impervious to damage and the move a terrible 4"...4 fething inches. Require a LRC (which does nothing but bring more of the same firepower) The redeemer sounds interesting until you realize turn 1 you wont be firing with about 500 points turn 1....it's just terrible. Storm raven might as well not exist at it's cost and Ultras are literally the worst tactic for it. Nothing lines up with ultras. The only army where everything fits together is ironhands...

Oh..spam the best units?
Ignore all their weakness?
Get additional defense from relics and HQ's?
Spread out and still get to reroll some dice?
Stack doctrine and super doctrine benefits all game?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.

What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.

Yes...blue and gold...so Ugly.

He is talking about the toilet seat insignia.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I've said it before and I will say it again: Ultramarines have the massive advantage of outright removing a tool from the toolkit of opposing armies by being able to fall back and shoot (outside of having units be completely wrapped which is a whole other dimension of strategy and counter play).

Iron Hands you can still run into and hit thus locking them down. Now personally I'm going to be running dread heavy with melee so I'm not TOO terribly upset by that because they are still good in melee (not against hordes), but against razorback spam or what have you it's devilishly effective. However the point stands that you have the options to heavily handicap an Iron Hand parking lot's firepower by the classic tag it strategy. You outright don't have that most of the time versus Ultramarines and that's HUGE. Yes the Iron Hands have the advantage and raw firepower and durability (by far durability), but you can never, NEVER devalue the power of toolkit options which can very often surpass the overall effectiveness of raw power options.

I mean I've been toying with taking a huge assault centurian unit - the Ultras stratagem lets them fall back and charge with no pentaly is very strong on them. Though - they aren't exactly impervious to damage and the move a terrible 4"...4 fething inches. Require a LRC (which does nothing but bring more of the same firepower) The redeemer sounds interesting until you realize turn 1 you wont be firing with about 500 points turn 1....it's just terrible. Storm raven might as well not exist at it's cost and Ultras are literally the worst tactic for it. Nothing lines up with ultras. The only army where everything fits together is ironhands...

Oh..spam the best units?
Ignore all their weakness?
Get additional defense from relics and HQ's?
Spread out and still get to reroll some dice?
Stack doctrine and super doctrine benefits all game?

I'm not saying Iron Hands aren't great because they are. I intend to play them. I do still maintain though that the Ultramrines have some great options and it's wrong to so heavily write them off just because Iron Hands have some other strengths. Both can be good and used different ways. One may overall be better than the other (as is almost always the case), but that doesn't mean that the supposedly inferior option is complete garbage without merit.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I've said it before and I will say it again: Ultramarines have the massive advantage of outright removing a tool from the toolkit of opposing armies by being able to fall back and shoot (outside of having units be completely wrapped which is a whole other dimension of strategy and counter play).

Iron Hands you can still run into and hit thus locking them down. Now personally I'm going to be running dread heavy with melee so I'm not TOO terribly upset by that because they are still good in melee (not against hordes), but against razorback spam or what have you it's devilishly effective. However the point stands that you have the options to heavily handicap an Iron Hand parking lot's firepower by the classic tag it strategy. You outright don't have that most of the time versus Ultramarines and that's HUGE. Yes the Iron Hands have the advantage and raw firepower and durability (by far durability), but you can never, NEVER devalue the power of toolkit options which can very often surpass the overall effectiveness of raw power options.

I mean I've been toying with taking a huge assault centurian unit - the Ultras stratagem lets them fall back and charge with no pentaly is very strong on them. Though - they aren't exactly impervious to damage and the move a terrible 4"...4 fething inches. Require a LRC (which does nothing but bring more of the same firepower) The redeemer sounds interesting until you realize turn 1 you wont be firing with about 500 points turn 1....it's just terrible. Storm raven might as well not exist at it's cost and Ultras are literally the worst tactic for it. Nothing lines up with ultras. The only army where everything fits together is ironhands...

Oh..spam the best units?
Ignore all their weakness?
Get additional defense from relics and HQ's?
Spread out and still get to reroll some dice?
Stack doctrine and super doctrine benefits all game?

I'm not saying Iron Hands aren't great because they are. I intend to play them. I do still maintain though that the Ultramrines have some great options and it's wrong to so heavily write them off just because Iron Hands have some other strengths. Both can be good and used different ways. One may overall be better than the other (as is almost always the case), but that doesn't mean that the supposedly inferior option is complete garbage without merit.

You are on dakka, either it's op or not considered at all.
Especially in marine dexes.

The point remains, at least in my mind, if your whole plan for a marine list is to castle up it feels like it'll end up a DoA strategy. Other armies do such things better and will punish it hard and once that castle of power crumbles, you have nothing left to fall back on aside from some troops which against some armies all that D 2 means little, it's just overkill at the sacrifice of rate of fire.

I don't know but if I'm changing my army around, when I'm already all modeled and painted as one chapter just to struggle and try to be head of the middle of the pack, just doesn't seem worth it to me. Unless we are saying IH will become the next list to beat, which I am not thinking will be the case despite how good it looks for marines.

If anything, I imagine multi colored IH will become the bane of semi casual play groups as more relaxed players just get super tired of seeing IH dug in parking lots.

You know, that kind of play style everyone so loves from IG lists.

The proposed Iron Hands list appears to just double down on the aura deathball, which is a tired play style to say the least. And big vehicles are still too easy to counter with heavy AT fire.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
The point remains, at least in my mind, if your whole plan for a marine list is to castle up it feels like it'll end up a DoA strategy. Other armies do such things better and will punish it hard and once that castle of power crumbles, you have nothing left to fall back on aside from some troops which against some armies all that D 2 means little, it's just overkill at the sacrifice of rate of fire.

I don't know but if I'm changing my army around, when I'm already all modeled and painted as one chapter just to struggle and try to be head of the middle of the pack, just doesn't seem worth it to me. Unless we are saying IH will become the next list to beat, which I am not thinking will be the case despite how good it looks for marines.

If anything, I imagine multi colored IH will become the bane of semi casual play groups as more relaxed players just get super tired of seeing IH dug in parking lots.

You know, that kind of play style everyone so loves from IG lists.

Ohh i agree with you, personally i find however that many seem to understimate the base reroll 1 every squad has and what that reliability improvement is actually worth.

F.e. Look at the purge trait. It's the most played competitively talking renegade trait for a reason.

Having an inbuilt failsafe light and a FNP on better marines (yes all sm are better now then csm due to beeing cheaper or 2w) is quite massive still.

As for the deathball.
Aurahammer is boring and the new thing which got old fast imo.

Which is why I think and say other lists do it better and with less cause for worry so its all this angst and front running to be the top of the marine pile when really it'll just be the foothill to someone elses mountain top.

Edit: Oh trust me, the re roll one isn't lost on me. I just think the weakness lies in relying on single target, or even dual very expensive targets to do most of your heavy lifting. It makes me feel un easy, but then I mostly play guard so I like to operate on the quantity has a quality all its own tactic. Flooding out reasonably hard hitting tanks in quantity I feel is safer to fill more that MSU of quality as opposed to just deathstars. I'd like to see how the deathstar holds up to some shadowswords though. Better hope for some hot invuln rolls I guess.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Which is why I think and say other lists do it better and with less cause for worry so its all this angst and front running to be the top of the marine pile when really it'll just be the foothill to someone elses mountain top.

It still will be annoying as feth for the casual meta.

Until that one wierdo with enough arty and screens show up to Rain on the Parade of the ih player.

Yeah, well the messed up thing is. People hate that play style with IG, I don't see why they'll love it with IH. It'll get old, someone will rage and then spank it hard with a list that does it better then you'll hear IH bandwagoners complain how marines are garbage again. I think we've seen this movie before.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Yeah, well the messed up thing is. People hate that play style with IG, I don't see why they'll love it with IH. It'll get old, someone will rage and then spank it hard with a list that does it better then you'll hear IH bandwagoners complain how marines are garbage again. I think we've seen this movie before.

He marines are garbage, just not the baseline marines this time.


Altough as a csm player it is quite agrivating to see the vast improvements that get handed out like candy whilest your own dex literally had and still has the same issues aswell and got nothing fixed.

As for the 5++ aura so many seem to fear, dont bother it ain't coming into play.
The FNP will though.
But FNP is so much better in many cases that that shouldn't come as a surprise.

Yeah, I feel bad for the CSM book release, if it had been me getting that treatment I'd be a little pissed off or more than a little.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoiler:

 Crimson wrote:
I guess I kinda fail to see the awesomeness of Ultra fall back and shoot (with penalty) trick. There are many good shooty marine units with fly, so they don't need that. And Intercessors are pretty decent at melee, so I'm not super concerned for them having to fight instead of shooting. And of course IH's overwatch buff is a pretty decent deterrent against things charging you in the first place.

The only unit they will need to keep out of CC is their levi dread and honestly if it gets to overwatch...very little wants to charge it anyways (ESP if you are rerolling all hits) + they have a stratagem to fall back and shoot with a single unit...

Nor do Iron hands not have to run screens. Intercessors are one of the best picks in the codex and they gain a ton from being itron hands too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.

What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.

That's half the problem.

Note, the other half is stricly dependent on playing the game by the standard rules, so in ITC YMMV.

The other half is that they cover one of the major weaknesses of the new SM quite well. To gain these huge bonuses SM have to give up the screens, which immediately makes them vulnerable to mortal wounds and assault units. Who cares about an IH parking lot when i can crash an helldrake on them from outside their threat range. But UM can retreat and shoot, are extremely powerful at short range in the second turn, can take the decision to go for the counter assault by moving into assault doctrine (all punches going to AP-1 hurts much more than you think) only to go back their favorite doctrine with a CP. Being good in the tactical doctrine gives you a lot of flexibility.

Sure, IH are good from turn 1, but is that really useful? Turn 1 is usually a movement turn with not many kills (again, not in ITC), especially when your list has a majority of range 24".

Add to this that UM are the ones who use best the aggressors, which are probably the most powerful unit in the SM arsenal.

UM can be countered by lists that are completely focused on shooting, and that's it. Any other list will see itself outplayed on all possible scenarios.


In short, while i can see possible ways to outplay White Scars RG and IH, for every scenario i can think against UM they always have a countermove. That's what i find scary.

Sorry but...units that require a setup turn aren't actually powerful because you have to compare them to units that don't need a setup turn. There is very little reason to take an aggressor over an assault centurion also. Guess what they gain from counts as stationary...oh yeah...nothing. Agressors would be a top choice if they could ride in an impulsor...they can't. Even as Ultras agressors will have to advance to get into range to shoot turn 1 (which means they can't shoot twice) so turn 2 at best. You could try spamming them. Str 4 spam isn't exactly stellar though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I've said it before and I will say it again: Ultramarines have the massive advantage of outright removing a tool from the toolkit of opposing armies by being able to fall back and shoot (outside of having units be completely wrapped which is a whole other dimension of strategy and counter play).

Iron Hands you can still run into and hit thus locking them down. Now personally I'm going to be running dread heavy with melee so I'm not TOO terribly upset by that because they are still good in melee (not against hordes), but against razorback spam or what have you it's devilishly effective. However the point stands that you have the options to heavily handicap an Iron Hand parking lot's firepower by the classic tag it strategy. You outright don't have that most of the time versus Ultramarines and that's HUGE. Yes the Iron Hands have the advantage and raw firepower and durability (by far durability), but you can never, NEVER devalue the power of toolkit options which can very often surpass the overall effectiveness of raw power options.

I mean I've been toying with taking a huge assault centurian unit - the Ultras stratagem lets them fall back and charge with no pentaly is very strong on them. Though - they aren't exactly impervious to damage and the move a terrible 4"...4 fething inches. Require a LRC (which does nothing but bring more of the same firepower) The redeemer sounds interesting until you realize turn 1 you wont be firing with about 500 points turn 1....it's just terrible. Storm raven might as well not exist at it's cost and Ultras are literally the worst tactic for it. Nothing lines up with ultras. The only army where everything fits together is ironhands...

Oh..spam the best units?
Ignore all their weakness?
Get additional defense from relics and HQ's?
Spread out and still get to reroll some dice?
Stack doctrine and super doctrine benefits all game?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.

What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.

Yes...blue and gold...so Ugly.

You probably didn't read, so i will repeat.
I'm not talking about ITC where turn 1 is fundamental. I'm talking about standard 40K, where it isn't unusual to not even score first blood on turn 1.
This is due to multiple reasons that i'm not going to list because if you play ITC you probably don't care.
My point is that in a standard game, the necessity for the UM to have a setup turn isn't such a drawback, because the first turn isn't a killy one. It's turn 2 and 3 where stuff gets slaughtered in droves.
On the other hand, the flexibility offered by being able to fall back and shoot, and the massive advantage offered by being in tactical doctrine, easily offsets the bonuses of IH. Not to mention the overwatch stratagem and the greater amount of CPs of UM lists.
You think that your leviathan will ever overwatch? No, it simply isn't going to happen if you are IH.
For UM though? That leviathan and his friends will shoot holes in any assaulters.

IH lists are one trick pony that are outplayed in many ways, but UM lists simply have an answer to everything,

Spoletta wrote:



In short, while i can see possible ways to outplay White Scars RG and IH, for every scenario i can think against UM they always have a countermove. That's what i find scary.

I cannot agree more. Ultramarines are extremely powerful because of their flexibility.

Lemondish wrote:

Spoletta wrote:



In short, while i can see possible ways to outplay White Scars RG and IH, for every scenario i can think against UM they always have a countermove. That's what i find scary.

I cannot agree more. Ultramarines are extremely powerful because of their flexibility.

agreed, Ultramarines aren't going to be a point click win force, but rather they're going to be a flexable force for the seasoned commander, whose strength will lie in adaptability. I suspect Ultramarines will be popular for tournies, partiuclarly in enviroments where the Meta is fluid.

Spoletta wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoiler:

 Crimson wrote:
I guess I kinda fail to see the awesomeness of Ultra fall back and shoot (with penalty) trick. There are many good shooty marine units with fly, so they don't need that. And Intercessors are pretty decent at melee, so I'm not super concerned for them having to fight instead of shooting. And of course IH's overwatch buff is a pretty decent deterrent against things charging you in the first place.

The only unit they will need to keep out of CC is their levi dread and honestly if it gets to overwatch...very little wants to charge it anyways (ESP if you are rerolling all hits) + they have a stratagem to fall back and shoot with a single unit...

Nor do Iron hands not have to run screens. Intercessors are one of the best picks in the codex and they gain a ton from being itron hands too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.

What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.

That's half the problem.

Note, the other half is stricly dependent on playing the game by the standard rules, so in ITC YMMV.

The other half is that they cover one of the major weaknesses of the new SM quite well. To gain these huge bonuses SM have to give up the screens, which immediately makes them vulnerable to mortal wounds and assault units. Who cares about an IH parking lot when i can crash an helldrake on them from outside their threat range. But UM can retreat and shoot, are extremely powerful at short range in the second turn, can take the decision to go for the counter assault by moving into assault doctrine (all punches going to AP-1 hurts much more than you think) only to go back their favorite doctrine with a CP. Being good in the tactical doctrine gives you a lot of flexibility.

Sure, IH are good from turn 1, but is that really useful? Turn 1 is usually a movement turn with not many kills (again, not in ITC), especially when your list has a majority of range 24".

Add to this that UM are the ones who use best the aggressors, which are probably the most powerful unit in the SM arsenal.

UM can be countered by lists that are completely focused on shooting, and that's it. Any other list will see itself outplayed on all possible scenarios.


In short, while i can see possible ways to outplay White Scars RG and IH, for every scenario i can think against UM they always have a countermove. That's what i find scary.

Sorry but...units that require a setup turn aren't actually powerful because you have to compare them to units that don't need a setup turn. There is very little reason to take an aggressor over an assault centurion also. Guess what they gain from counts as stationary...oh yeah...nothing. Agressors would be a top choice if they could ride in an impulsor...they can't. Even as Ultras agressors will have to advance to get into range to shoot turn 1 (which means they can't shoot twice) so turn 2 at best. You could try spamming them. Str 4 spam isn't exactly stellar though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I've said it before and I will say it again: Ultramarines have the massive advantage of outright removing a tool from the toolkit of opposing armies by being able to fall back and shoot (outside of having units be completely wrapped which is a whole other dimension of strategy and counter play).

Iron Hands you can still run into and hit thus locking them down. Now personally I'm going to be running dread heavy with melee so I'm not TOO terribly upset by that because they are still good in melee (not against hordes), but against razorback spam or what have you it's devilishly effective. However the point stands that you have the options to heavily handicap an Iron Hand parking lot's firepower by the classic tag it strategy. You outright don't have that most of the time versus Ultramarines and that's HUGE. Yes the Iron Hands have the advantage and raw firepower and durability (by far durability), but you can never, NEVER devalue the power of toolkit options which can very often surpass the overall effectiveness of raw power options.

I mean I've been toying with taking a huge assault centurian unit - the Ultras stratagem lets them fall back and charge with no pentaly is very strong on them. Though - they aren't exactly impervious to damage and the move a terrible 4"...4 fething inches. Require a LRC (which does nothing but bring more of the same firepower) The redeemer sounds interesting until you realize turn 1 you wont be firing with about 500 points turn 1....it's just terrible. Storm raven might as well not exist at it's cost and Ultras are literally the worst tactic for it. Nothing lines up with ultras. The only army where everything fits together is ironhands...

Oh..spam the best units?
Ignore all their weakness?
Get additional defense from relics and HQ's?
Spread out and still get to reroll some dice?
Stack doctrine and super doctrine benefits all game?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.

What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.

Yes...blue and gold...so Ugly.

You probably didn't read, so i will repeat.
I'm not talking about ITC where turn 1 is fundamental. I'm talking about standard 40K, where it isn't unusual to not even score first blood on turn 1.
This is due to multiple reasons that i'm not going to list because if you play ITC you probably don't care.
My point is that in a standard game, the necessity for the UM to have a setup turn isn't such a drawback, because the first turn isn't a killy one. It's turn 2 and 3 where stuff gets slaughtered in droves.
On the other hand, the flexibility offered by being able to fall back and shoot, and the massive advantage offered by being in tactical doctrine, easily offsets the bonuses of IH. Not to mention the overwatch stratagem and the greater amount of CPs of UM lists.
You think that your leviathan will ever overwatch? No, it simply isn't going to happen if you are IH.
For UM though? That leviathan and his friends will shoot holes in any assaulters.

IH lists are one trick pony that are outplayed in many ways, but UM lists simply have an answer to everything,

We play different 40k man. It's weird not to lose 2 units or more turn 1 or a knight.

Example. The last game I played against tau with Ultramarines. I went first. Killed his stormsurge and riptide turn 1 a broadside and a unit of stealth suits and like 10 fire warriors. If he went first I would have lost even more. The fire power is literally insane this edition.

OFC not all lists are bringing a bunch of big guns but every list should be bringing alpha strike or i don't know how you'd keep up.

Spoletta wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoiler:

 Crimson wrote:
I guess I kinda fail to see the awesomeness of Ultra fall back and shoot (with penalty) trick. There are many good shooty marine units with fly, so they don't need that. And Intercessors are pretty decent at melee, so I'm not super concerned for them having to fight instead of shooting. And of course IH's overwatch buff is a pretty decent deterrent against things charging you in the first place.

The only unit they will need to keep out of CC is their levi dread and honestly if it gets to overwatch...very little wants to charge it anyways (ESP if you are rerolling all hits) + they have a stratagem to fall back and shoot with a single unit...

Nor do Iron hands not have to run screens. Intercessors are one of the best picks in the codex and they gain a ton from being itron hands too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.

What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.

That's half the problem.

Note, the other half is stricly dependent on playing the game by the standard rules, so in ITC YMMV.

The other half is that they cover one of the major weaknesses of the new SM quite well. To gain these huge bonuses SM have to give up the screens, which immediately makes them vulnerable to mortal wounds and assault units. Who cares about an IH parking lot when i can crash an helldrake on them from outside their threat range. But UM can retreat and shoot, are extremely powerful at short range in the second turn, can take the decision to go for the counter assault by moving into assault doctrine (all punches going to AP-1 hurts much more than you think) only to go back their favorite doctrine with a CP. Being good in the tactical doctrine gives you a lot of flexibility.

Sure, IH are good from turn 1, but is that really useful? Turn 1 is usually a movement turn with not many kills (again, not in ITC), especially when your list has a majority of range 24".

Add to this that UM are the ones who use best the aggressors, which are probably the most powerful unit in the SM arsenal.

UM can be countered by lists that are completely focused on shooting, and that's it. Any other list will see itself outplayed on all possible scenarios.


In short, while i can see possible ways to outplay White Scars RG and IH, for every scenario i can think against UM they always have a countermove. That's what i find scary.

Sorry but...units that require a setup turn aren't actually powerful because you have to compare them to units that don't need a setup turn. There is very little reason to take an aggressor over an assault centurion also. Guess what they gain from counts as stationary...oh yeah...nothing. Agressors would be a top choice if they could ride in an impulsor...they can't. Even as Ultras agressors will have to advance to get into range to shoot turn 1 (which means they can't shoot twice) so turn 2 at best. You could try spamming them. Str 4 spam isn't exactly stellar though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I've said it before and I will say it again: Ultramarines have the massive advantage of outright removing a tool from the toolkit of opposing armies by being able to fall back and shoot (outside of having units be completely wrapped which is a whole other dimension of strategy and counter play).

Iron Hands you can still run into and hit thus locking them down. Now personally I'm going to be running dread heavy with melee so I'm not TOO terribly upset by that because they are still good in melee (not against hordes), but against razorback spam or what have you it's devilishly effective. However the point stands that you have the options to heavily handicap an Iron Hand parking lot's firepower by the classic tag it strategy. You outright don't have that most of the time versus Ultramarines and that's HUGE. Yes the Iron Hands have the advantage and raw firepower and durability (by far durability), but you can never, NEVER devalue the power of toolkit options which can very often surpass the overall effectiveness of raw power options.

I mean I've been toying with taking a huge assault centurian unit - the Ultras stratagem lets them fall back and charge with no pentaly is very strong on them. Though - they aren't exactly impervious to damage and the move a terrible 4"...4 fething inches. Require a LRC (which does nothing but bring more of the same firepower) The redeemer sounds interesting until you realize turn 1 you wont be firing with about 500 points turn 1....it's just terrible. Storm raven might as well not exist at it's cost and Ultras are literally the worst tactic for it. Nothing lines up with ultras. The only army where everything fits together is ironhands...

Oh..spam the best units?
Ignore all their weakness?
Get additional defense from relics and HQ's?
Spread out and still get to reroll some dice?
Stack doctrine and super doctrine benefits all game?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.

What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.

Yes...blue and gold...so Ugly.

You probably didn't read, so i will repeat.
I'm not talking about ITC where turn 1 is fundamental. I'm talking about standard 40K, where it isn't unusual to not even score first blood on turn 1.
This is due to multiple reasons that i'm not going to list because if you play ITC you probably don't care.
My point is that in a standard game, the necessity for the UM to have a setup turn isn't such a drawback, because the first turn isn't a killy one. It's turn 2 and 3 where stuff gets slaughtered in droves.
On the other hand, the flexibility offered by being able to fall back and shoot, and the massive advantage offered by being in tactical doctrine, easily offsets the bonuses of IH. Not to mention the overwatch stratagem and the greater amount of CPs of UM lists.
You think that your leviathan will ever overwatch? No, it simply isn't going to happen if you are IH.
For UM though? That leviathan and his friends will shoot holes in any assaulters.

IH lists are one trick pony that are outplayed in many ways, but UM lists simply have an answer to everything,

I have to question what games your playing that your not putting damage into your opponents turn 1, even in CA missions all 3 of my armies are doing atleast 300 points of damage/off the table turn 1 and I tend to build towards durability over pure alpha stike lists.

Ultramarines have a strategum tool box yes, but lets take that strategum you called out if your not allowed to overwatch what's charging it doesn't matter as you still can't overwatch. Some of the other codex supplements got effectively 1 unit FLY via a strategum

The fall back and shooting, yeah because hitting on often a 5+ at best is so much better than just over watching on a 5&6.

The other Iron Hands don't have is stick rendered redundant or actually as some were arguing making a FLY unit worse.

Also as for your stand out Ultramarines unit of agressors yeah they work well as Ultramarines but they've still got some way to go to being a problem unit. All Ultramarines do is take them from a unit you play around into the will need to kill them at some point.

Not Online!!! wrote:


Ohh i agree with you, personally i find however that many seem to understimate the base reroll 1 every squad has and what that reliability improvement is actually worth.

F.e. Look at the purge trait. It's the most played competitively talking renegade trait for a reason.

Having an inbuilt failsafe light and a FNP on better marines (yes all sm are better now then csm due to beeing cheaper or 2w) is quite massive still.

As for the deathball.
Aurahammer is boring and the new thing which got old fast imo.

I think that's a poor example - the Purge trait applies to everything.

This applies only to heavy weapons.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoiler:

 Crimson wrote:
I guess I kinda fail to see the awesomeness of Ultra fall back and shoot (with penalty) trick. There are many good shooty marine units with fly, so they don't need that. And Intercessors are pretty decent at melee, so I'm not super concerned for them having to fight instead of shooting. And of course IH's overwatch buff is a pretty decent deterrent against things charging you in the first place.

The only unit they will need to keep out of CC is their levi dread and honestly if it gets to overwatch...very little wants to charge it anyways (ESP if you are rerolling all hits) + they have a stratagem to fall back and shoot with a single unit...

Nor do Iron hands not have to run screens. Intercessors are one of the best picks in the codex and they gain a ton from being itron hands too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.

What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.

That's half the problem.

Note, the other half is stricly dependent on playing the game by the standard rules, so in ITC YMMV.

The other half is that they cover one of the major weaknesses of the new SM quite well. To gain these huge bonuses SM have to give up the screens, which immediately makes them vulnerable to mortal wounds and assault units. Who cares about an IH parking lot when i can crash an helldrake on them from outside their threat range. But UM can retreat and shoot, are extremely powerful at short range in the second turn, can take the decision to go for the counter assault by moving into assault doctrine (all punches going to AP-1 hurts much more than you think) only to go back their favorite doctrine with a CP. Being good in the tactical doctrine gives you a lot of flexibility.

Sure, IH are good from turn 1, but is that really useful? Turn 1 is usually a movement turn with not many kills (again, not in ITC), especially when your list has a majority of range 24".

Add to this that UM are the ones who use best the aggressors, which are probably the most powerful unit in the SM arsenal.

UM can be countered by lists that are completely focused on shooting, and that's it. Any other list will see itself outplayed on all possible scenarios.


In short, while i can see possible ways to outplay White Scars RG and IH, for every scenario i can think against UM they always have a countermove. That's what i find scary.

Sorry but...units that require a setup turn aren't actually powerful because you have to compare them to units that don't need a setup turn. There is very little reason to take an aggressor over an assault centurion also. Guess what they gain from counts as stationary...oh yeah...nothing. Agressors would be a top choice if they could ride in an impulsor...they can't. Even as Ultras agressors will have to advance to get into range to shoot turn 1 (which means they can't shoot twice) so turn 2 at best. You could try spamming them. Str 4 spam isn't exactly stellar though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I've said it before and I will say it again: Ultramarines have the massive advantage of outright removing a tool from the toolkit of opposing armies by being able to fall back and shoot (outside of having units be completely wrapped which is a whole other dimension of strategy and counter play).

Iron Hands you can still run into and hit thus locking them down. Now personally I'm going to be running dread heavy with melee so I'm not TOO terribly upset by that because they are still good in melee (not against hordes), but against razorback spam or what have you it's devilishly effective. However the point stands that you have the options to heavily handicap an Iron Hand parking lot's firepower by the classic tag it strategy. You outright don't have that most of the time versus Ultramarines and that's HUGE. Yes the Iron Hands have the advantage and raw firepower and durability (by far durability), but you can never, NEVER devalue the power of toolkit options which can very often surpass the overall effectiveness of raw power options.

I mean I've been toying with taking a huge assault centurian unit - the Ultras stratagem lets them fall back and charge with no pentaly is very strong on them. Though - they aren't exactly impervious to damage and the move a terrible 4"...4 fething inches. Require a LRC (which does nothing but bring more of the same firepower) The redeemer sounds interesting until you realize turn 1 you wont be firing with about 500 points turn 1....it's just terrible. Storm raven might as well not exist at it's cost and Ultras are literally the worst tactic for it. Nothing lines up with ultras. The only army where everything fits together is ironhands...

Oh..spam the best units?
Ignore all their weakness?
Get additional defense from relics and HQ's?
Spread out and still get to reroll some dice?
Stack doctrine and super doctrine benefits all game?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.

What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.

Yes...blue and gold...so Ugly.

You probably didn't read, so i will repeat.
I'm not talking about ITC where turn 1 is fundamental. I'm talking about standard 40K, where it isn't unusual to not even score first blood on turn 1.
This is due to multiple reasons that i'm not going to list because if you play ITC you probably don't care.
My point is that in a standard game, the necessity for the UM to have a setup turn isn't such a drawback, because the first turn isn't a killy one. It's turn 2 and 3 where stuff gets slaughtered in droves.
On the other hand, the flexibility offered by being able to fall back and shoot, and the massive advantage offered by being in tactical doctrine, easily offsets the bonuses of IH. Not to mention the overwatch stratagem and the greater amount of CPs of UM lists.
You think that your leviathan will ever overwatch? No, it simply isn't going to happen if you are IH.
For UM though? That leviathan and his friends will shoot holes in any assaulters.

IH lists are one trick pony that are outplayed in many ways, but UM lists simply have an answer to everything,

We play different 40k man. It's weird not to lose 2 units or more turn 1 or a knight.

Example. The last game I played against tau with Ultramarines. I went first. Killed his stormsurge and riptide turn 1 a broadside and a unit of stealth suits and like 10 fire warriors. If he went first I would have lost even more. The fire power is literally insane this edition.

OFC not all lists are bringing a bunch of big guns but every list should be bringing alpha strike or i don't know how you'd keep up.

There are many reasons.
1) 1750 point lists. This decreases the available fire power by a lot. Firepower is not linear with points, is almost exponential.
2) Lists built with 6 different missions in mind that favor mobility, flexibility and durability over firepower. Killing nets zero points, and tabling doesn't make you win.
3) Counter deployment. The player going second deploys everything second, so he deploys defensively.

Sure, there are lists like AM and Tau that will take one or 2 units turn one, that is what they excel at. They have insane range. An IH list though doesn't have the range, and will not score many points turn one.
What you described, killing almost 1000 points of models turn 1 would mean a tragic error of the opponent and the end of the game. Games are not decided turn 1 if both players know what they are doing, they are decided turn 3, sometimes turn 2.

Ice_can wrote:

The fall back and shooting, yeah because hitting on often a 5+ at best is so much better than just over watching on a 5&6.

Why are UM only hitting on a 5+ after falling back?

Also one of their Warlord traits allows nearby units to Fall Back and fire without penalty.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

The fall back and shooting, yeah because hitting on often a 5+ at best is so much better than just over watching on a 5&6.

Why are UM only hitting on a 5+ after falling back?

Also one of their Warlord traits allows nearby units to Fall Back and fire without penalty.

-1 for fall back per the trait, your not seriously saying take an anti -1 to hit warlord trait are you?

Moving and shooting a heavy -1 or counts as moving at best if you have a rapid fire weapon as scions doesn't apply if you fall back

That combines for -2 self inflicted, if people are charging your troops in my experiance they are either dead or you are rarely does my infanty need to fallback and shoot it's generally dreadnaughts and tanks that are trying to gain anything from the trait.

 Insectum7 wrote:
You might not, but you should. #boysinblue.

Do whatever you want, it's fine.

This is why homebrew chapters and paintjobs are the best. Play 'em as you want as long as they are WYSIWYG.

Eliminators or anything that can target characters to take out the Ironstone caddy, and/or the IH special character, and then shoot the vehicles.

The only thing that sucks is I don't want to use Primaris in my 31k era force, and the recon squad is a bit smaller than the Eliminators.

Ice_can wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

The fall back and shooting, yeah because hitting on often a 5+ at best is so much better than just over watching on a 5&6.

Why are UM only hitting on a 5+ after falling back?

Also one of their Warlord traits allows nearby units to Fall Back and fire without penalty.

-1 for fall back per the trait, your not seriously saying take an anti -1 to hit warlord trait are you?

Moving and shooting a heavy -1 or counts as moving at best if you have a rapid fire weapon as scions doesn't apply if you fall back

That combines for -2 self inflicted, if people are charging your troops in my experiance they are either dead or you are rarely does my infanty need to fallback and shoot it's generally dreadnaughts and tanks that are trying to gain anything from the trait.

I can upgrade a second character with a second Warlord trait if I want. That one is on the table for candidates.

If you play reasonably, your Heavy Weapons don't have to move to get out of 1" from the opponent when falling back. One of the benefits of larger squads is that extra buffer.

Otherwise I can also chance a litany if I need it. Theoretically I can fire heavies after fallback on a 2+ to hit.

A number of Dreadnoughts (since you mention them) start at a 2+ to begin with.

There's also the Big Guns Never Tire Strat that allows a vehicle to ignore the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons.